is Taim Moridin?

[Moogle]

I always thought that Taim was Demandred until we were told directly otherwise. Kind of annoying since he was set up perfectly to be him.

[ironchefofmunchies]

I do agree that it seems odd that the Forsaken set themselves up in every major power center in Randland (Andor, Tear, White Tower, Illian, Seanchan) and yet they decide to outsource the Black Tower to an underling. Even if Taim is under Compulsion or was turned by a 13x13 after he was freed from the Aes Sedai (my theory) wouldn't Taim still have to report to somebody?

 

It seems to me that the Dark wouldn't let the Black Tower be overseen second-hand like that given that the Black Tower is the 2nd biggest threat the Dark would face at the last battle (along with the White Tower). You will note that even though Alvarin was "running" the White Tower via Elaida that Mesanna was still there to watch over things.

 

Ever since Dashiva got balefired the Dark just decided the Black Tower wasn't worth the resources? But Arad Doman was? I can't understand how that would make sense.

[Mr Ares]

Pro

Bashere is doubtful that he is really Taim when Taim first shows up in LoC.

To counter this, he is quickly convinced. When Rand first met him, he also overestimated Taim's age (and the man had shaved as well).

 

Taim uses the same sigil as Bel'al and Sammael

I would be hesitant to call that a pro-Moridin argument. After all, Moridin doesn't use that sigil. It's either neutral or supports Taim is not Moridin.

 

I have to agree with your conclusion, the con evidence is difficult to explain away, far harder than the pro evidence. On balance, Taim is almost certainly not Moridin. It is telling that so much of the Taim-is-Moridin evidence was previously Taim-is-Demandred evidence. Really, the only good bit of evidence I can think of to link Taim to Demandred specifically is the not smiling. Which means those that hld to that theory must hold to a view that no two people can share the same mannerism - they must be the same person. We don't have the full Taim story yet, although we can make some guesses, and there are still mysteries surrounding him, but the idea that Taim is anyone other than Taim is one that fails to convince, as it leaves too much unanswered.

[Arc]

Good summary of the various arguments. Taim is not Moridin. I have argued this extensively in other threads so I would prefer not to have to rehash everything, but it would take an awful lot of things explained away for Taim to be Moridin. The "con" evidence is just too overwhelming. There is no reasonable away to explain all the arguments against it. On the other hand, all it takes is one reasonable assumption (Taim was a student of a Forsaken, likely Ishy) to explain away the "pro" arguments. This theory has always seemed so unlikely to me that I am continually surprised at how much support it gets.

There's been hints that Taim may have been trained by Ishamael who is now Moridin, so it's either that and of course he picked up the sigil and the mannerisms in both stance and speech, "so-called Aiel" as people do mimic those around them. Stick a guy without an accent in the south, he'll add so drawl, stick him in Jersey, same thing. Person with an accent in among non-accented folk, they go flat over time. Natural acclamation. The other thing since RJ denied that Taim was Moridin, is that either he's speaking as an Aes Sedai and Taim is "Ishameal" or he was originally written, as is popular opinion, that he was once supposed to be written as Demandred in disguise as many of the forsaken were written in as others in disguise in the earlier books, and later was changed because RJ thought of something even wickeder to have Demandred pop out as.

 

The 'Taim trained by Ishy theory' sounds acceptable, a link between the two which isn't mentioned yet on this thread, are the guards in black who do not sweat (noticed by Greandal) who guard Morridins black-stone-fortress-thing in the blight. I hadn't noticed until a re-read, but they may very well be asha'man. That sort of confirmed their link IMO.

[yoniy0]

I do agree that it seems odd that the Forsaken set themselves up in every major power center in Randland (Andor, Tear, White Tower, Illian, Seanchan) and yet they decide to outsource the Black Tower to an underling. Even if Taim is under Compulsion or was turned by a 13x13 after he was freed from the Aes Sedai (my theory) wouldn't Taim still have to report to somebody?

 

It seems to me that the Dark wouldn't let the Black Tower be overseen second-hand like that given that the Black Tower is the 2nd biggest threat the Dark would face at the last battle (along with the White Tower). You will note that even though Alvarin was "running" the White Tower via Elaida that Mesanna was still there to watch over things.

 

Ever since Dashiva got balefired the Dark just decided the Black Tower wasn't worth the resources? But Arad Doman was? I can't understand how that would make sense.

You do realize that Taim was in the so-called 'farm' long before Dashiva got blasted (not BFed)? At the time that he approached Rand, there was no Black Tower. He was surprised himself that Rand found a channeler amongst the men he had gathered there prior to Taim's arrival. The fact that so many channeling men were found and agreed to come was definitely unexpected by the Shadow. Note that, once the Black Tower was on its way to become a real power in the world, Osan'gar was planted there. He was also obviously surprised when Rand dislocated him.

[ironchefofmunchies]

I do agree that it seems odd that the Forsaken set themselves up in every major power center in Randland (Andor, Tear, White Tower, Illian, Seanchan) and yet they decide to outsource the Black Tower to an underling. Even if Taim is under Compulsion or was turned by a 13x13 after he was freed from the Aes Sedai (my theory) wouldn't Taim still have to report to somebody?

 

It seems to me that the Dark wouldn't let the Black Tower be overseen second-hand like that given that the Black Tower is the 2nd biggest threat the Dark would face at the last battle (along with the White Tower). You will note that even though Alvarin was "running" the White Tower via Elaida that Mesanna was still there to watch over things.

 

Ever since Dashiva got balefired the Dark just decided the Black Tower wasn't worth the resources? But Arad Doman was? I can't understand how that would make sense.

You do realize that Taim was in the so-called 'farm' long before Dashiva got blasted (not BFed)? At the time that he approached Rand, there was no Black Tower. He was surprised himself that Rand found a channeler amongst the men he had gathered there prior to Taim's arrival. The fact that so many channeling men were found and agreed to come was definitely unexpected by the Shadow. Note that, once the Black Tower was on its way to become a real power in the world, Osan'gar was planted there. He was also obviously surprised when Rand dislocated him.

 

 

Yes, I realize that. And none of what you wrote explained why AFTER Osan'gar got picked out by Rand that a replacement Forsaken was not assigned to the Black Tower to replace him. By then it was no longer "the farm" and had already grown to a significant power in it's own right (I seem to recall that Rand selecting Dashiva occurred immediately after Dumai's Wells).

 

I put forth the reason the Taim=Demandred or Taim=Moridin theories persist to this day is because it just doesn't make sense that NONE of the Forsaken think it's worth their time to infiltrate the Black Tower.

[yoniy0]

Yes, I realize that. And none of what you wrote explained why AFTER Osan'gar got picked out by Rand that a replacement Forsaken was not assigned to the Black Tower to replace him. By then it was no longer "the farm" and had already grown to a significant power in it's own right (I seem to recall that Rand selecting Dashiva occurred immediately after Dumai's Wells).

 

I put forth the reason the Taim=Demandred or Taim=Moridin theories persist to this day is because it just doesn't make sense that NONE of the Forsaken think it's worth their time to infiltrate the Black Tower.

By that time they all had their places in the world, and Taim was already there, evidently reporting on a somewhat regular basis to both Demandred and Moridin. They don't NEED someone to spend all their time there, and they CAN'T replace Taim as the head-boy. Remember that there are other targets out there, and according to Brandon Demandred has been very busy; We know Moridin was.

It could be that Osan'gar's time was expendable, but theirs wasn't.

[ironchefofmunchies]

I wouldn't suspect any Forsaken would be dumb enough to try and take over as "head-boy". Just too obvious. But a Forsaken in the Black Tower posing as an Asha'Man who just happens to spend a lot of time out on "recruiting trips"? That's not a bad cover AND it lets a Forsaken keep close tabs on Taim and the Black Tower.

 

After all the in-fighting we've seen from the Dark in the series I find it strange that Moridin would just "trust" Taim to keep the Black Tower on track. Seems more in character that Moridin would slip one of the other Forsaken in as a check on Taim-but like you said they're running out of male Forsaken.

 

I'd still think the Black Tower would have been of more use than, let's say, the Illian plotline that Sammael spent his whole time working on.

[yoniy0]

I wouldn't suspect any Forsaken would be dumb enough to try and take over as "head-boy". Just too obvious. But a Forsaken in the Black Tower posing as an Asha'Man who just happens to spend a lot of time out on "recruiting trips"? That's not a bad cover AND it lets a Forsaken keep close tabs on Taim and the Black Tower.

Can't have it both ways. Either it's important enough for Moridin to handle on his own, or it's silly to draw that much attention to himself.

[Morsker]

They call that a red herring. I find the "RJ is a bald faced liar" argument to be a little tough to swallow (not directed at your post in particular, just in the general holding onto this theory that should have died years ago when God spoke). He very explicitly said that Taim was not Demmy. If that was not plain enough he also said that we have not seen Demmy's alter-ego through CoT.

RJ not only said Taim isn't Demandred, but he said it wasn't a red herring, just something fans randomly came up with. So calling it a red herring is also implying he lied. That's the hardest part to interpret. RJ is the only person in the WoT community who never thought Taimandred was obvious. (Many of us disbelieved, but only because we thought it was too obvious. RJ alone never saw it.) I think this is because RJ was trying to use the scene to illustrate the nature of the voice's connection to trauma; male channelers make it whine about Demandred's betrayal, just like dead women make it whine about Ilyena's death. But WoT is so vague about the voice that this went over everyone's head at the time.

 

It makes me think Taim is just Taim though, a high-ranking Dreadlord taking orders from Moridin and Demandred. If he were any Forsaken at all, RJ would've been more tight-lipped. RJ was just weird about Forsaken alter-egos, treating even Cyndane and Moridin as mysteries. If there were any mystery to Taim, he wouldn't've said a word.

[capuga]

RJ not only said Taim isn't Demandred, but he said it wasn't a red herring, just something fans randomly came up with. So calling it a red herring is also implying he lied. That's the hardest part to interpret. RJ is the only person in the WoT community who never thought Taimandred was obvious. (Many of us disbelieved, but only because we thought it was too obvious. RJ alone never saw it.)

 

I re-read the series several times before I started lurking on fansites and I had never considered that Taim was Demandred until finding that theory online. It may be "obvious" to hardcore fans that spend a bunch of time at fansites disecting all the little details in the books for years while they wait for the next book to come out. But those people are a small fraction of the WoT readers so I would imagine that the vast majority of WoT fans never considered the possibility.

 

Even after seeing the evidence for Taim=Demandred pointed out I still never really felt like it was so glaring obvious like many seem to. There are some passing similarities. Taim is a powerful, evil, competitive, ambitious, and clever man. I would imagine that he shares some similarities with virtually all the Forsaken. Those are just the characteristics of that particular group.

[yoniy0]

Well, I for one was a strong believer that Taim was Demandred UNTIL I started to frequent fan sites and found out the theory's been refuted.

[OptimusPrime]

Thank you for this thread Herid!

 

Ive been convinced Taim was Moridin for a long time now but in truth, not in the beginning. Yet Moridin and Taim WERE always my favorite villains, not only because both have balls of steel to be doing what they are doing (and evil besides, but anyway) but they are both very, VERY successful. In essence Brandons controvercial BUT, although its supposed to NOT be anything to do with this, when Brandon said what he did, I looked back at the time he mentioned. Books 4-6. The first things that came to mind were that it could be something to do with the "transmigration" of Ishamaels soul, and Moridins return in book 6 which we know of from the balefires touching at Shadar Logoth.

 

So Ive seen Taim as Moridin since just before I read TGS.

 

Anyway here it comes in full form. Sorry, but the thread asked for it! And its a poll as well.

 

One of the main things that has always struck me about Taim is his level of success. Just look at what he is doing, and consider just how much skill it must take to do all that. I know Rand doesnt spend any time in the Black Tower but he has basically been right under Rands nose, not only converting channelers in large numbers, he is also doing so in the Shadows image as herid said, that being with the sigils of fists holding lightning and whatnot. Its just that Rand had his nose in the air like Elayne, so he doesnt see it. Taim never EVER poses a threat to Rands existence, which is why the Pattern hasnt done anything to stop him. However Logain going to the Tower could very well be the Pattern setting things in motion ahead of Time. Its good like that, you can tell because the Dark One is still imprisoned.

 

Moridin issued the no kill order early on. I dont think the connection to Rand is the main reason. I think the main reason is because the Shadow can not only benefit from Rands existence possibly even NEEDING him somehow, but they will also be sure to lose anything they throw at Rand because he has the entire Pattern on his side; basically, if someone tries to kill him, they will not succeed unless there is some sort of way to still get the job done. Whoever the Shadow send against him would be affected by his Ta'veren spin, and thus be either less reliable to the Shadow, be compromised in some way, be discovered or simply be killed. Ishamael knows this, he has tons of experience dealing with Ta'veren; we have heard tales of his manipulating Ta'veren, most noteable being Artur Hawkwing. Note that Ishamael didnt simply stab Hawkwing on his deathbed. He didnt pose a direct threat, HE wasnt going to kill him. He just made Hawkwing refuse Healing. So its not as if the guy doesnt know how to deal with Ta'veren.

 

Anyway. Heres how I think it went down. Part is onscreen stuff, part is offscreen.

 

The False Dragon was Taim, but after Rand proclaims himself, Taim was captured by Aes Sedai, we know this. Rand kills Ishamael, the Dark One captures his soul, and soon we hear that Taim has been captured. Later, as in within two books, Taim escapes, fact. I think the Shadow manipulated this situation mostly through the Black Ajah at Mesaanas hands. Taim was taken to Shayol Ghul where the Dark One put Ishamael in his body.

 

I think Demandred took Taim to Shayol Ghul. Some people disagree with me but I think it has been implied to, in Lord of Chaos Prologue AND Epilogue. Heres what I think happened.

 

LoC Prologue

 

(Onscreen)

 

Demandred: Boss, I can kill the Dragon.

Dark One: Would you be Nae'blis?

Demandred: I serve and obey and all that

Dark One: THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE.HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

 

(Offscreen)

 

Dark One: THE FALSE DRAGON MAZRIM TAIM SHALL DIE, AND ELAN MORIN SHALL LIVE.

Demandred: Damnit! Er, I mean, yes sir, three bags full. How high should I jump? Grovel grovel kthxbai

 

Demandred then arranges a Chosen meeting, which also takes place in LoC prologue, bottom of p65 in mine.

 

(Onscreen, Mesaanas PoV)

 

Demandred: Everyone here? Ayt, boss says to Let the Lord of Chaos rule. *proceeds to explain the rest, which is not specified but we get Mesaanas reaction as shes being told*

 

What I think was said here is that Demandred tells them they must get Taim to Shayol Ghul so Ishamael can return. As Chosen and as competitive as they are, they wouldnt be happy about it. But those present were Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage and Graendal. I think Demandred says that with the resources they have (as in the Black Ajah) they simply cant NOT follow the order of taking Taim to Shayol Ghul. To tell the Dark One they failed at such an easy task, easy because no Ta'veren are at the Tower at the time as far as they know, if they failed they would be severely punished because its just too easy. So Demandred I think also told the others that they would not only help bring Ishamael back, but that they would secretly plan to pull him down later and reap his benefits. Now of course none of that was actually mentioned but its the kind of scheming I expect of the Forsaken, and Mesaana describes Demandreds plan as a gamble.

 

So Mesaana has the Black Ajah get Taim into Demandreds hands, Demandred takes him to Shayol Ghul. Enter Moridin.

 

Now, when looking at the bigger picture, if this was the case and Moridin did return in Taims body, then Demandred pretty much made all of the Black Tower stuff possible. Demandred is a general, best on the battlefield. Not doing what Moridin is doing. Moridin I think would be better at converting people than Demandred, so in bringing Ishamael back he gave the Shadow its strongest asset and it has already worked wonders. So Demandred scores some points for that. But on what we expect of the Forsaken he has shot himself in the foot, and made himself lose all possibility of the position of Nae'blis.

 

The rest is history basically. The first sign of course was when Taim was first introduced, as Herid has already pointed out in the opening post. Bashere isnt daft, hes quite a level headed guy. Im sure he could recognise the guy he was headhunting if the guy had a shave. In other words when Taims "I had a shave" comment was a moot point, and Rand picked up on it, and then made my absolute favorite mistake any character ever EVER made in the entire series (actually its two mistakes) The first is after the "I shaved" comment, and "Taim" angering Bashere, Rand sees Taim channel, and thinks to himself that this is enough proof for him that it really is Taim, despite "Basheres doubts." Now it might be just me, but surely channeling would actually confirm anyone who channeled AS A SUSPECT for being Forsaken, not the other way round, because all the Forsaken channel. Am I right? After that Rand tells Taim to watch out for signs of fast learners who might be Forsaken. And yet Rand has just seen Taim do the test on recruits despite having "only met five others."

 

To point out the other mistake Rand made in that same scene, where Taim tests Flynn. Note that in the test, Taim waits a minute or two after feeling the residue. Also note that Flynns age means he simply cannot be a sparker, because he would definitely have channeled by now and known it. I think Taim was demonstrating the full test to Rand (Rand notes that Taim is instrucing him as much as Flynn) yet I think when Taim waits another minute, IF Flynn had been a sparker, something else would have happened in that last minute. But Flynn wasnt a sparker, WE know from his age. Rand arrogantly thinks to himself that because he felt a residue a minute before Taim reacted, that Taim isnt a know-it-all and that Rand was "faster" than him. Now Ive already flagged Rand for his false proof of Taim is Taim, but here he simply doesnt know enough about testing or sparkers or learners to understand whats going on. Taim as in Moridin knows enough about the test to demonstrate the full version, and probably would have explained had Rand stayed to see a sparker take the test.

 

Now, of course WE can write that off as Taim being taught by the Forsaken, but the point Im making is that Rands assessment of Taim being Taim is deeply flawed. Not only does he eliminate what should be a confirmed suspect, he also misses that person showing signs he is telling that person to look out for in others. Get it? It reminds me a heck of a lot of his absolute certainty of killing Graendal. He had a more calculative and cunning approach to that one, but this thing with Taim is just ridiculous. My favorite Rand mistake ever.

 

Rands judgement on Taim being Taim, in short, is more of a reason to believe Taim ISNT Taim, and if Taim isnt Taim, and Demandred is off limits, then the only possibility that explains all of the signs is Moridin.

 

One last thing. Taim is not a third age Chosen, Egwenes Dream of the midnight towers proves it. She sees thirteen black towers, and some begin to fall. Some rise again and one rises impossibly high, and six are left standing including the tall one. Moridin, Demandred, Graendal, Mesaana, Cyndane and Moghedien. The Chosen, the Towers of Midnight, their deaths portrayed as they happened from the Eye of the World until the end of The Gathering Storm. If Taim was a Third Age Chosen, there would have been a fourteenth tower.

 

Taim was Taim is Moridin.

 

P.S. Sorry, theres a few things I havent mentioned, like the contradicting orders and the need to alter his face with the True Power. Ive rambled on enough, but I will say its NOT a MoM, its NOT a One Power disguise. Moridin has Taims body, and altered the face with the True Power. It enables him to resort to another appearance if he needs to, and in the Black Tower Darkfriend meetings he can appear to them as Taim the M'Hael or Moridin the Nae'blis. Its all about predicting the selfish, dealing with higher ranking Chosen enflates their ego and Moridin can read them from two places. Taims special classes either involve Demandred taking over while Moridin visits the Blight, or him actually appearing as Moridin while they think the M'Hael is elsewhere. Only the other Chosen know they are the same guy

[Mats Spare Hat]

Man I really hope Taim just turns out to be Taim, and not some disguised Forsaken. Can't we just have a bad guy from this age that has powers on par with the logain/rand's of the world without them having to be anyone but themselves?

 

I would rather have it that Taim turned bad, because that's what he wanted to do. Not because he was compelled, and not because he was bait and switched mad-eye moody harry potter style by Demandred/Moridin/Whoever - I like the idea that Taim just was a dude that turned bad for his own motivations. He doesn't have to be some kind of 14th Forsaken, or have been compelled or 13x13'd into it, he's just a bad guy who didn't like the cards he was dealt and went on over to the other side.

 

Just like a Bors/Carridin, Liandrin, Sheriam, whoever floats your boat.

[Ashandarei]

@Drekka Mort

 

That was confusing. Let me get this straight. Your theory states that:

 

1)Taim was captured by BA

2)Dem. took him to SG

3)Ishy's soul was put into Taim's body while Taim's was removed from it

4)Taim's face is the real one and Moridin's is just a Mask of Mirrors

 

There's a lot of assumptions and loose connections and coincidences in the theory for me to accept it though. I've always thought Taim wasn't just Taim but the rest is pretty far-fetched.

 

But that's just me, to each his own.

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka Mort

 

That was confusing. Let me get this straight. Your theory states that:

 

1)Taim was captured by BA

2)Dem. took him to SG

3)Ishy's soul was put into Taim's body while Taim's was removed from it

4)Taim's face is the real one and Moridin's is just a Mask of Mirrors

 

There's a lot of assumptions and loose connections and coincidences in the theory for me to accept it though. I've always thought Taim wasn't just Taim but the rest is pretty far-fetched.

 

But that's just me, to each his own.

 

Its always the face that confuses!

 

The face we know as Moridin is actually the original, unaltered Taim face.

 

The one WE see onscreen as Taim the M'Hael has been altered, and Bashere picked up on it.

 

So in other words Moridin keeps Taims original face for Nae'blis duties, but alters it when he wishes to act as Taim. One of the advantages of this is that if he was somehow prevented from disguising himself, he would be left with his Nae'blis face which is the unaltered Taim face.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I also didnt state that Moridin used his Ta'veren tracking technique to find Rand at Dumais Wells.

[capuga]

@Drekka Mort

 

That was confusing. Let me get this straight. Your theory states that:

 

1)Taim was captured by BA

2)Dem. took him to SG

3)Ishy's soul was put into Taim's body while Taim's was removed from it

4)Taim's face is the real one and Moridin's is just a Mask of Mirrors

 

There's a lot of assumptions and loose connections and coincidences in the theory for me to accept it though. I've always thought Taim wasn't just Taim but the rest is pretty far-fetched.

 

But that's just me, to each his own.

 

Its always the face that confuses!

 

The face we know as Moridin is actually the original, unaltered Taim face.

 

The one WE see onscreen as Taim the M'Hael has been altered, and Bashere picked up on it.

 

So in other words Moridin keeps Taims original face for Nae'blis duties, but alters it when he wishes to act as Taim. One of the advantages of this is that if he was somehow prevented from disguising himself, he would be left with his Nae'blis face which is the unaltered Taim face.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I also didnt state that Moridin used his Ta'veren tracking technique to find Rand at Dumais Wells.

 

But for this to work, Taim (altered) and Moridin (original) would have to look similar. Bashere thinks Taim looks a little different but he doesn't think that they look like completely different people. But when Rand sees Moridin's face through their link (or at Shadar Logoth or in the dream in tGS) you never see him think that Moridin looks really similar to Taim.

[Jblaylock]

Here's a thought I've not seen suggested. What if, when the DO brought Ishy back, he split the "soul" (or whatever) into two bodies? One into Moridin, and the other into Taim? I otherwise find it hard to believe that Moridin is simply using a OP disguize with inverted weeves (or whatever it would take) and Rand has not found out yet.

[capuga]

Here's a thought I've not seen suggested. What if, when the DO brought Ishy back, he split the "soul" (or whatever) into two bodies? One into Moridin, and the other into Taim? I otherwise find it hard to believe that Moridin is simply using a OP disguize with inverted weeves (or whatever it would take) and Rand has not found out yet.

 

RJ said that souls cannot be split when discussing if Rand's 3 girlfriends were each a part of Ilyena reborn.

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka Mort

 

That was confusing. Let me get this straight. Your theory states that:

 

1)Taim was captured by BA

2)Dem. took him to SG

3)Ishy's soul was put into Taim's body while Taim's was removed from it

4)Taim's face is the real one and Moridin's is just a Mask of Mirrors

 

There's a lot of assumptions and loose connections and coincidences in the theory for me to accept it though. I've always thought Taim wasn't just Taim but the rest is pretty far-fetched.

 

But that's just me, to each his own.

 

Its always the face that confuses!

 

The face we know as Moridin is actually the original, unaltered Taim face.

 

The one WE see onscreen as Taim the M'Hael has been altered, and Bashere picked up on it.

 

So in other words Moridin keeps Taims original face for Nae'blis duties, but alters it when he wishes to act as Taim. One of the advantages of this is that if he was somehow prevented from disguising himself, he would be left with his Nae'blis face which is the unaltered Taim face.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I also didnt state that Moridin used his Ta'veren tracking technique to find Rand at Dumais Wells.

 

But for this to work, Taim (altered) and Moridin (original) would have to look similar. Bashere thinks Taim looks a little different but he doesn't think that they look like completely different people. But when Rand sees Moridin's face through their link (or at Shadar Logoth or in the dream in tGS) you never see him think that Moridin looks really similar to Taim.

 

You are using One Power Mask of Mirror guidelines. This is a True Power disguise, not a normal MoM. even so, the changes are small. Tilted eyes and hiding the sa'a, adding a slightly hooked nose, and lessening the strong jaw. He doesnt need to look that similar if its only the face hes changeing. Lets face it. All Moridin needs to do with the True Power is add slanted eyes, a hooked nose, and remove his lantern jaw. Small details, but ALSO have a shave, and it looks quite different indeed. Different enough to justify Bashere not recognising him,

 

Bashere was hesitant that it was Taim, Rands PoV shows up that Bashere sounds doubtful, not just because the guy had a shave, but because the eyes, nose AND mouth are all slightly off as well. Small changes, but still enough to raise the question from the guy who shouldnt be questioning it.

[capuga]

@Drekka Mort

 

That was confusing. Let me get this straight. Your theory states that:

 

1)Taim was captured by BA

2)Dem. took him to SG

3)Ishy's soul was put into Taim's body while Taim's was removed from it

4)Taim's face is the real one and Moridin's is just a Mask of Mirrors

 

There's a lot of assumptions and loose connections and coincidences in the theory for me to accept it though. I've always thought Taim wasn't just Taim but the rest is pretty far-fetched.

 

But that's just me, to each his own.

 

Its always the face that confuses!

 

The face we know as Moridin is actually the original, unaltered Taim face.

 

The one WE see onscreen as Taim the M'Hael has been altered, and Bashere picked up on it.

 

So in other words Moridin keeps Taims original face for Nae'blis duties, but alters it when he wishes to act as Taim. One of the advantages of this is that if he was somehow prevented from disguising himself, he would be left with his Nae'blis face which is the unaltered Taim face.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I also didnt state that Moridin used his Ta'veren tracking technique to find Rand at Dumais Wells.

 

But for this to work, Taim (altered) and Moridin (original) would have to look similar. Bashere thinks Taim looks a little different but he doesn't think that they look like completely different people. But when Rand sees Moridin's face through their link (or at Shadar Logoth or in the dream in tGS) you never see him think that Moridin looks really similar to Taim.

 

You are using One Power Mask of Mirror guidelines. This is a True Power disguise, not a normal MoM. even so, the changes are small. Tilted eyes and hiding the sa'a, adding a slightly hooked nose, and lessening the strong jaw. He doesnt need to look that similar if its only the face hes changeing. Lets face it. All Moridin needs to do with the True Power is add slanted eyes, a hooked nose, and remove his lantern jaw. Small details, but ALSO have a shave, and it looks quite different indeed. Different enough to justify Bashere not recognising him,

 

Bashere was hesitant that it was Taim, Rands PoV shows up that Bashere sounds doubtful, not just because the guy had a shave, but because the eyes, nose AND mouth are all slightly off as well. Small changes, but still enough to raise the question from the guy who shouldnt be questioning it.

 

A hooked nose and slanted eyes are pretty distinctive. If Moridin (with Taim's original body and the one that Bashere had previously seen) had to add something like that to the Taim disguise they would not look similar enough for Bashere to just write off the changes as "just because of a shave". True Power or One Power MoM, it doesn't change the fact that to fool Bashere the original Taim (Moridin) and the new Taim (MoM disguise) have to look similar enough that "I shaved off my beard" is an acceptable explanation. And if they looked that similar Rand would have commented on it.

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka Mort

 

That was confusing. Let me get this straight. Your theory states that:

 

1)Taim was captured by BA

2)Dem. took him to SG

3)Ishy's soul was put into Taim's body while Taim's was removed from it

4)Taim's face is the real one and Moridin's is just a Mask of Mirrors

 

There's a lot of assumptions and loose connections and coincidences in the theory for me to accept it though. I've always thought Taim wasn't just Taim but the rest is pretty far-fetched.

 

But that's just me, to each his own.

 

Its always the face that confuses!

 

The face we know as Moridin is actually the original, unaltered Taim face.

 

The one WE see onscreen as Taim the M'Hael has been altered, and Bashere picked up on it.

 

So in other words Moridin keeps Taims original face for Nae'blis duties, but alters it when he wishes to act as Taim. One of the advantages of this is that if he was somehow prevented from disguising himself, he would be left with his Nae'blis face which is the unaltered Taim face.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I also didnt state that Moridin used his Ta'veren tracking technique to find Rand at Dumais Wells.

 

But for this to work, Taim (altered) and Moridin (original) would have to look similar. Bashere thinks Taim looks a little different but he doesn't think that they look like completely different people. But when Rand sees Moridin's face through their link (or at Shadar Logoth or in the dream in tGS) you never see him think that Moridin looks really similar to Taim.

 

You are using One Power Mask of Mirror guidelines. This is a True Power disguise, not a normal MoM. even so, the changes are small. Tilted eyes and hiding the sa'a, adding a slightly hooked nose, and lessening the strong jaw. He doesnt need to look that similar if its only the face hes changeing. Lets face it. All Moridin needs to do with the True Power is add slanted eyes, a hooked nose, and remove his lantern jaw. Small details, but ALSO have a shave, and it looks quite different indeed. Different enough to justify Bashere not recognising him,

 

Bashere was hesitant that it was Taim, Rands PoV shows up that Bashere sounds doubtful, not just because the guy had a shave, but because the eyes, nose AND mouth are all slightly off as well. Small changes, but still enough to raise the question from the guy who shouldnt be questioning it.

 

A hooked nose and slanted eyes are pretty distinctive. If Moridin (with Taim's original body and the one that Bashere had previously seen) had to add something like that to the Taim disguise they would not look similar enough for Bashere to just write off the changes as "just because of a shave"

 

He didnt. Before he had chance to say anything else on it, "Taim" recounts of events at Irinjavar and Basheres relatives or whatever. That got an emotional reaction from Bashere, THATS how he got round it. In anger Bashere said "Taim!" and then its too late. Ishamael wins. Bashere DID notice the distinctive faces, thats what I was saying. But Moridin threw him off by aggravating him, and from then on Rand is talking pretty much constantly so Bashere doesnt get another chance to flag it up

[yoniy0]

@Drekka Mort, first, recall that Graendal had no idea who Moridin was or that a Nae'blis was chosen (pun intended) when Moghedien and Cyndane came calling. No way was she aware that Ishamael was being transmigrated.

Second, Mark Grayson is right. There's no way that Bashere wouldn't comment on the man looking completely different, then or at a later time. This is not something that one simply ignores, unless the similarity is convincing. And in that case, Rand would've picked up on it at least one of the times he met Moridin (at Shadar Logoth, or in his dream).

[TheAngryDruid]

I feel compelled to put in my $0.02 since I voted yes.

 

While I think there is some very strong points to the contrary (conflicting kill orders, very busy), I think the pro evidence is stronger, and can't be explained by saying Taim is Demandred's proxy, or is just a high up DF. Most on here dismiss that evidence far too easily, IMHO.

 

My timeline would go like this. Taim was Taim until captured by the AS. I'm assuming that the BA or other Forsaken took him (possibly as part of the plan that Joiya and Amico told the Wondergirls about back in Tear in Shadow Rising). Put him to the question to find out all about him (like Semirhage did to Cabriana). Around the same time, Ishy gets killed by Rand in Tear. He is put into a new body (Moridin). He then takes Taim's form to impersonate him and get close to Rand, and stays when he starts to gather channelers, and an opportunity forms to have a base of power behind enemy lines.

 

As for the evidence that it is hard, or impossible to explain away by the DF/Demandred's proxy theory (and the OP did a very good job on the pro/con evidence). The best is the examples of Taim doing things that can best (only?) be explained by him being Moridin AFTER he and Rand crossed the streams.

 

First, he is exuding a Warder's deadly grace where before he scoffed at anyone using swords because he could use the power. This warder bond and Rand's martial training are leaking through the bond created. Second, the hand gestures when he stands (like Rand/Moridin) were striking. It is simply not plausible for either to be explained because Taim is a DF, Demandred's proxy, or spent time around other Forsaken.

 

The sigil is also good evidence, since only male Forsaken have used it. With Demandred eliminated, the only male Forsaken left, if it is a Forsaken only symbol, is Moridin/Ishy. The different metals used (steel and silver for Sammael and Be'lal, gold for Taim) seem to imply that Taim would outrank Be'lal and Sammael. There is only one who qualifies for that, methinks. Again, by no means conclusive, but good evidence none the same.

 

His turns of phrase (so-called Aiel), knowledge of the test, and his huge success in finding men who can channel (and also amenable to his way of thinking/pressure) hint that he is more than he seems.

 

We've seen Forsaken masquerade as someone else for long periods of time, in close contact without the MoM being discovered, even at close range (Mesaana in the WT, Lanfear more than once, Moghedien more than once). An inverted weave would do nicely. Or he could even be using the TP here. And we've also seen Forsaken spend lots of time off in character as someone else, disguised or not (Semirhage, Dashiva/Oran'gar/Aginor, Lanfear, Asmodean, Arang'ar/Balthamel, Moggy). Also, the beard is instructive, and a problem. Moridin is clean shaven. Someone touching Taim's face would ruin him if he didn't grow a beard himself, so he decides to have Taim shave instead. And remember it is as Taim's knowledge of events (gained through Semi's interrogation, probably) that convinces Bashere, NOT his appearance.

 

Also, the appearance of the dreamspike at the BT is also supportive. It means Taim has access to Moridin's stash. Now, Moridin could have given it to Demandred (who then gave it to Taim) like he did Graendal. But he only had two (that she saw). Seems odd that he give away such a powerful tool for protecting a his own stronghold. One explanation is that he hasn't and it IS protecting his stronghold.

 

With all we've known about the Forsaken, does it make sense to anyone that they would let a non-Chosen amass a force of hundreds of male channelers all loyal to a mere DF? Especially an ambitions DF who claimed himself the Dragon? Or that the DO wouldn't assign one of the Chosen to the task? Maybe the Chosen would allow it on extremely explicit orders from on high, but maybe not even then.

 

No, the Forsaken are extremely wary of letting any underling amass to much knowledge or power. I find the idea that Demandred (or any of the others) would hand Taim this set keys to be extremely unlikely and totally out of character, and stupid in the extreme. He can now crush any of them, and if Liandrin and her group is any guide, lots of DF's want to move up or challenge the Chosen, at leas once, anyways.

 

Lastly, the attack on Caemlyn seems a big deal. Unlikely to be left to mere DF's (though certainly not impossible). We know Moggy has been messing with Liandrin's group, and through them, Hanlon. She is one legit option. Graendal and Cydane are assuredly out. The others are Demandred and Moridin. Though I remember Demandred saying his "rule" was secure, I don't think he'd use that phrase about Shadowspawn (I'm thinking the Caemlyn attack via Shadowspawn, but I could be off there). If Demandred is off the board, then that leaves Moggy (Moridin's servant) and Moridin himself.

 

For me, this rules out the Demandred/proxy explanation. Or a proxy for any of the Forsaken. Once this is ruled out, it also rules out one of the more prominent explanations of the "con" side, that Taim learned how to test for the talent, and picked up his phrases (so-called Aiel) from spending time with other Forsaken.

 

 

I don't want to rehash the whole thing. I know there are strong points against, but I just think they are easier to explain away than some of the pros. Time issue = vacuoles, portal stone worlds with slower moving time, or really good time management. Conflicting orders = he knew they would fail or we've seen Ishy try an attack before as well.

 

I'm with Linda at the 13th on this one. Check out her theory there if anyone hasn't.

 

EDIT: It also occurs to me that this theory could be an explanation to the vexing question of why the BT situation has dragged on so long, and why Rand hasn't gone there. There is a big showdown there. Final book stuff. Nae'blis vs. the Dragon Reborn. Only works if Taim is Moridin.

 

One thing we can agree on: we can't wait to find out!

[Ashandarei]

I feel compelled to put in my $0.02 since I voted yes.

 

While I think there is some very strong points to the contrary (conflicting kill orders, very busy), I think the pro evidence is stronger, and can't be explained by saying Taim is Demandred's proxy, or is just a high up DF. Most on here dismiss that evidence far too easily, IMHO.

 

My timeline would go like this. Taim was Taim until captured by the AS. I'm assuming that the BA or other Forsaken took him (possibly as part of the plan that Joiya and Amico told the Wondergirls about back in Tear in Shadow Rising). Put him to the question to find out all about him (like Semirhage did to Cabriana). Around the same time, Ishy gets killed by Rand in Tear. He is put into a new body (Moridin). He then takes Taim's form to impersonate him and get close to Rand, and stays when he starts to gather channelers, and an opportunity forms to have a base of power behind enemy lines.

 

As for the evidence that it is hard, or impossible to explain away by the DF/Demandred's proxy theory (and the OP did a very good job on the pro/con evidence). The best is the examples of Taim doing things that can best (only?) be explained by him being Moridin AFTER he and Rand crossed the streams.

 

First, he is exuding a Warder's deadly grace where before he scoffed at anyone using swords because he could use the power. This warder bond and Rand's martial training are leaking through the bond created. Second, the hand gestures when he stands (like Rand/Moridin) were striking. It is simply not plausible for either to be explained because Taim is a DF, Demandred's proxy, or spent time around other Forsaken.

 

The sigil is also good evidence, since only male Forsaken have used it. With Demandred eliminated, the only male Forsaken left, if it is a Forsaken only symbol, is Moridin/Ishy. The different metals used (steel and silver for Sammael and Be'lal, gold for Taim) seem to imply that Taim would outrank Be'lal and Sammael. There is only one who qualifies for that, methinks. Again, by no means conclusive, but good evidence none the same.

 

His turns of phrase (so-called Aiel), knowledge of the test, and his huge success in finding men who can channel (and also amenable to his way of thinking/pressure) hint that he is more than he seems.

 

We've seen Forsaken masquerade as someone else for long periods of time, in close contact without the MoM being discovered, even at close range (Mesaana in the WT, Lanfear more than once, Moghedien more than once). An inverted weave would do nicely. Or he could even be using the TP here. And we've also seen Forsaken spend lots of time off in character as someone else, disguised or not (Semirhage, Dashiva/Oran'gar/Aginor, Lanfear, Asmodean, Arang'ar/Balthamel, Moggy). Also, the beard is instructive, and a problem. Moridin is clean shaven. Someone touching Taim's face would ruin him if he didn't grow a beard himself, so he decides to have Taim shave instead. And remember it is as Taim's knowledge of events (gained through Semi's interrogation, probably) that convinces Bashere, NOT his appearance.

 

Also, the appearance of the dreamspike at the BT is also supportive. It means Taim has access to Moridin's stash. Now, Moridin could have given it to Demandred (who then gave it to Taim) like he did Graendal. But he only had two (that she saw). Seems odd that he give away such a powerful tool for protecting a his own stronghold. One explanation is that he hasn't and it IS protecting his stronghold.

 

With all we've known about the Forsaken, does it make sense to anyone that they would let a non-Chosen amass a force of hundreds of male channelers all loyal to a mere DF? Especially an ambitions DF who claimed himself the Dragon? Or that the DO wouldn't assign one of the Chosen to the task? Maybe the Chosen would allow it on extremely explicit orders from on high, but maybe not even then.

 

No, the Forsaken are extremely wary of letting any underling amass to much knowledge or power. I find the idea that Demandred (or any of the others) would hand Taim this set keys to be extremely unlikely and totally out of character, and stupid in the extreme. He can now crush any of them, and if Liandrin and her group is any guide, lots of DF's want to move up or challenge the Chosen, at leas once, anyways.

 

Lastly, the attack on Caemlyn seems a big deal. Unlikely to be left to mere DF's (though certainly not impossible). We know Moggy has been messing with Liandrin's group, and through them, Hanlon. She is one legit option. Graendal and Cydane are assuredly out. The others are Demandred and Moridin. Though I remember Demandred saying his "rule" was secure, I don't think he'd use that phrase about Shadowspawn (I'm thinking the Caemlyn attack via Shadowspawn, but I could be off there). If Demandred is off the board, then that leaves Moggy (Moridin's servant) and Moridin himself.

 

For me, this rules out the Demandred/proxy explanation. Or a proxy for any of the Forsaken. Once this is ruled out, it also rules out one of the more prominent explanations of the "con" side, that Taim learned how to test for the talent, and picked up his phrases (so-called Aiel) from spending time with other Forsaken.

 

 

I don't want to rehash the whole thing. I know there are strong points against, but I just think they are easier to explain away than some of the pros. Time issue = vacuoles, portal stone worlds with slower moving time, or really good time management. Conflicting orders = he knew they would fail or we've seen Ishy try an attack before as well.

 

I'm with Linda at the 13th on this one. Check out her theory there if anyone hasn't.

 

EDIT: It also occurs to me that this theory could be an explanation to the vexing question of why the BT situation has dragged on so long, and why Rand hasn't gone there. There is a big showdown there. Final book stuff. Nae'blis vs. the Dragon Reborn. Only works if Taim is Moridin.

 

One thing we can agree on: we can't wait to find out!

 

I like your explanation of this theory. It's a lot more cohesive and intuitive than the previous theory and you make multiple decent points. Heck, you even partially convinced me that Moridin might be Taim. I'm not saying I agree completely, but the evidence, especially presented as you did, does seem convincing.

 

Edit- Could you post a link for the theory on the 13th Dep.? I tried finding it but navigating that site is like trying to do underwater basket-weaving blind-folded.