Black Tower

[GregDietzFla]

So when Rand started the 'black tower' i was really excited about the potential that this had as an army. An 'army' of channelers has not been seen, not even in the A.O.L. (???). After Dumai's Wells we see their potency, they 'disperse' the Shaido in a matter of minutes i believe. Why hasn't Rand used them to consolidate the countries or at least expel the Seanchan?

I realize that the Seanchan have Damane, but damane do not work together, where as the Asha'man do (see dome of weaves butted up against each other). Damane are weapons by themselves, but so are the Asha'man. The damane are really no more than support or auxillary units for their armies, and as such, must spend a good deal of energy protecting the army that they are with. The asma'man dont have to worry about that, they are the army.

Now i guess my real question is, is there any army or group that can stand against the black tower if fully fielded (like at Dumai's Well)?? (I dont think so), and if there isn't, then how stupid is Rand for not taking advantage of his own creation??

 

P.s. - I understand that with Taim and the darkfriend influence at the Tower, maybe not anymore, but at the time of the Seanchan invasion, Rand could somewhat reliably count on the Tower, and he never used it. (He used a handful during his attack, but after seeing their efficiacy as a full army and not auxillaries, why not use them as such?)

[moratcorlm]

This seems remarkably similar to this topic. And other than Traveling, which is of course a major advantage, I'd be leery of claiming the Asha'man are superior weapons to the damane.

[GregDietzFla]

ya i read that thread but it seemed mostly about using the theory of total war against the seanchan. This is more of a question of, Army vs. Army, can anything stand against the Black Tower when fully fielded??

Nor am i saying that 1 on 1 will asha'man beat damane, but damane don't fight as a seperate army, and are auxillary units. Once again i will reference Dumai's Wells, where they dispersed the shaido who were also supported by all the Shaido's Wise Ones. So if a clan of Aiel + Wiseones get beaten in a matter of minutes. Can anyone stand against them?

[David Selig]

Rand had around 50 Asha'man with him during the Seanchan campaign in PoD and the damane gave them a run for their money despite the huge advantage Travelling gave the Asha'man. So I wouldn't say they are unstoppable.

[GregDietzFla]

Rand had around 50 Asha'man with him during the Seanchan campaign in PoD and the damane gave them a run for their money despite the huge advantage Travelling gave the Asha'man. So I wouldn't say they are unstoppable.

 

Yes he had about 50, 10% of the black tower at worst, probabally more like 5%. How would the seanchan have fared against 500-1,000 asha'man? What if the asha'man hadn't been worried about defending Rand's armies, but just worried about killing? That is the difference between Damane and Asha'man, Damane are SUPPORT troops, while asha'man function as the ARMY itself. Rand did not use the Asha'man in that attack effectively or smartly.

[Zentari]

This seems remarkably similar to this topic. And other than Traveling, which is of course a major advantage, I'd be leery of claiming the Asha'man are superior weapons to the damane.

When it comes to pure destructive strength the Asha'man are in lead from what we have seen so far.However there are a few things that keep them down:

 

1)Leadership:I love Rand.I really do.His whole behavior towards ashaman however is inexcusable.How the hell does one claim to be an ashaman, the FIRST ashaman and yet refuse to lead in any way , not to mention delegating said leadership to a person like Taim.Yeah, he WAS the only one available at the time but he could have gotten rid of him when he thought he had recruited enough men.

 

2)Time: Training in the BT is hard,nothing short of the WO training nothing can match it.Said training though still requires time even if it is exclusively focused on eradicating the enemy.

 

3)Focus:

 

This is a thing that both helps AND hinders the black tower.

 

Aes Sedai focus on a wide aray of agendas and while the have an Ajah dedicated to battle , they haven't shown any kind of competence in that area (not surprising , but that's a discussion for another thread).Windfinders are focused on ship transportation ,not to mention that since it was hidden that they had channelers one can surmise that conflict using OP was not common for them .Same can be said about the WO, afterall their focus was to guide and protect the Aiel.The kin are for obvious reasons not in conflict with anyone.

 

The damane are a special case.While they ARE the only female channelers to be used as weapons it is not their primary designation (that would be all-purpose-tools.Not to mention that since the vast majority of damane belong(ed) to the Empress assuming the the majority of them have not fought seriously in a civil war , one can say that they are not practiced in it.

 

The Asha'man are a different case.Their PRIMARY role is simple: soldiers (or weapons depending on how ruthless one is).They do not care about politics , helping people or anything of the short.They are focused on killing the enemy , winning the last battle and calling it a day.They seem to use OP much more excessively and seem to be trained to use it in a tactical , focused manner than no other group has shown yet.Not to mention that the male half of the power and men in general are much more suited to war (this may come out as misogynistic).

 

You might ask : "So this helps the BT , correct ? " . In a way , yes but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.Said lack of leadership causes BT to be divided and the lack of political and financial support does not help the average Asha'man's case.Heck the BT only got where it is today because the other two groups who could pose a threat (AS and Seanchan) where too busy locking horns either between them (split,leaving them unable to deal with the BT and it's growing influence as they would have in other cases) or stabilizing areas they had conquered (yet they managed to have a tussle or two with the BT when the Seanchan tried to expand again).

 

Those are the reasons that in my opinion have shaped the BT as it is today.

[Lupy]

I wholeheartedly agreed. At Dumai's Wells we saw that the Asha'man are unstoppable. They can lay waste to an army in a way Damane never could because they aren't support troops. Taim made the most powerful army in the genre of fantasy (that I have read) and Rand has never used to effectively! The only time he used them, in TPoD, he did so in a ridiculously stupid manner.

 

Bashere: Rand, you have a million soldiers and 1000 men who can channel. How will you fight the Seanchan?

Rand: With 1000 men and 50 channelers!

 

Why does Rand even command armies? He should have left that to Bashere and actually made use of Mat. He should have snapped up Gareth Bryne too for that matter. Rand has no training and great captains work for him, there is no need for him to command armies. I hope that he leaves it to Mat and the great captains at TG or we may end up with the Light's epic plan being: "Okay, 999,993 of my men stay here with 992 Asha'man, callandor, and Alivia. Nyn, 7 aiel, and 8 Asha'man will then run at Shayol Ghul and hope for the best while I sky dive naked into the volcano."

[GregDietzFla]

This seems remarkably similar to this topic. And other than Traveling, which is of course a major advantage, I'd be leery of claiming the Asha'man are superior weapons to the damane.

When it comes to pure destructive strength the Asha'man are in lead from what we have seen so far.However there are a few things that keep them down:

 

1)Leadership:I love Rand.I really do.His whole behavior towards ashaman however is inexcusable.How the hell does one claim to be an ashaman, the FIRST ashaman and yet refuse to lead in any way , not to mention delegating said leadership to a person like time.Yeah, he WAS the only one available at the time but he could have gotten rid of him when he thought he had recruited enough men.

 

2)Time: Training in the BT is hard,nothing short of the WO training nothing can match it.Said training though still requires time even if it is exclusively focused on eradicating the enemy.

 

3)Focus:

 

This is a thing that both helps AND hinders the black tower.

 

Aes Sedai focus on a wide aray of agendas and while the have an Ajah dedicated to battle , they haven't shown any kind of competence in that area (not surprising , but that's a discussion for another thread).Windfinders are focused on ship transportation ,not to mention that since it was hidden that they had channelers one can surmise that conflict using OP was not common for them .Same can be said about the WO, afterall their focus was to guide and protect the Aiel.The kin are for obvious reasons not in conflict with anyone.

 

The damane are a special case.While they ARE the only female channelers to be used as weapons it is not their primary designation (that would be all-purpose-tools.Not to mention that since the vast majority of damane belong(ed) to the Empress assuming the the majority of them have not fought seriously in a civil war , one can say that they are not practiced in it.

 

The Asha'man are a different case.Their PRIMARY role is simple: soldiers (or weapons depending on how ruthless one is).They do not care about politics , helping people or anything of the short.They are focused on killing the enemy , winning the last battle and calling it a day.They seem to use OP much more excessively and seem to be trained to use it in a tactical , focused manner than no other group has shown yet.Not to mention that the male half of the power and men in general are much more suited to war (this may come out as misogynistic).

 

You might ask : "So this helps the BT , correct ? " . In a way , yes but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.Said lack of leadership causes BT to be divided and the lack of political and financial support does not help the average Asha'man's case.Heck the BT only got where it is today because the other two groups who could pose a threat (AS and Seanchan) where too busy locking horns either between them (split,leaving them unable to deal with the BT and it's growing influence as they would have in other cases) or stabilizing areas they had conquered (yet they managed to have a tussle or two with the BT when the Seanchan tried to expand again).

 

Those are the reasons that in my opinion have shaped the BT as it is today.

 

1. Leadership- I would say that Taim was the best leader for the job (to make weapons) seeing as how Rand (pre-jesus) has a very limited capacity for war. Taim has very effectively organized them not only as individual weapons, but as a weapon as a whole.

2. Time- While i agree with you that it takes time to train, the earlier arriving recruits have had plenty of time to be effectively trained (Narishma, Flinn, etc.). The do everything with the power, where every other training program prohibits use of power. So comparitively BT trains at a much faster rate.

3. Focus- While i agree with you that in terms of versatility, the BT does not compete, however their use as an army is what i am speaking of, not their ability to negotiate. Because the Band of the Red Hand doesn't have political power, does that make them less effective on the field? NO. Nor does the BT need political or economical power, They are commisioned by Rand and he has plenty of both. So for all intents and purposes their 'focus' is nothing but beneficial.

 

Nor do i think that the White Tower or the Seanchan could ever have posed more than a minimal risk to the BT. BT had travelling far before both, so any threat just leads to a 'withdrawl', while i think you are completely underestimating how quickly they became potent. It is easier and quicker to train someone in just one area, as opposed to a versatile training. And remember the WT did attack, too late obviously, and they were captured because of Rand's order that they were protected, which sounded to me like they could have destroyed them rather quickly. Not too scary. The seanchan were never a threat for they did not have travelling and would have had to march through Andor to get there, causing war with Andor. Yes the seanchan took Altara and Amadicia, two of the weakest countries, neither had any channelling. It was also at a time that Rand held Andor, Cairhien, and Illian (Not to mention the Aiel). Any attack by the Seanchan would have been devastating for the Seanchan, not the BT.

Not to mention that Aes Sedai would be focused on shielding, while the Asha'man would just make them explode..I mean come on, when it comes to battle, Aes Sedai are little more than useless. Now because of Elaida's retarted attack on the BT, women's only advantage (linking), is nullified because BT can link too. Seanchan can't link at all.

[GregDietzFla]

I wholeheartedly agreed. At Dumai's Wells we saw that the Asha'man are unstoppable. They can lay waste to an army in a way Damane never could because they aren't support troops. Taim made the most powerful army in the genre of fantasy (that I have read) and Rand has never used to effectively! The only time he used them, in TPoD, he did so in a ridiculously stupid manner.

 

Bashere: Rand, you have a million soldiers and 1000 men who can channel. How will you fight the Seanchan?

Rand: With 1000 men and 50 channelers!

 

Why does Rand even command armies? He should have left that to Bashere and actually made use of Mat. He should have snapped up Gareth Bryne too for that matter. Rand has no training and great captains work for him, there is no need for him to command armies. I hope that he leaves it to Mat and the great captains at TG or we may end up with the Light's epic plan being: "Okay, 999,993 of my men stay here with 992 Asha'man, callandor, and Alivia. Nyn, 7 aiel, and 8 Asha'man will then run at Shayol Ghul and hope for the best while I sky dive naked into the volcano."

 

LMFAO. thats exactly what i thought. And yes by far the most powerful army in fantasy, which has seen a total of 2 battles. The first of which was a rescue mission. Rand is by far the stupidest conqueror in the history of anything.

[Erunion]

Asha'man vs. Seanchan, Asha'man would definitely win (backed up by the Legion of the Dragon).

Why? They are ideal for a blitzkrieg assault - break the enemy with the big guns then send in the infantry to mop 'em up.

 

For a good comparison, look at the German offensive into France at the start of WWII - The French had tanks that were almost as effective as the German's, yet were crushed by the German's numbers and dedicated tank regiments (the French tanks were spread through the infantry as support units, much like the Damane...).

 

Also, remember, the Asha'man during tPOD were not as well trained or organized as they are now (+ only what, 8 of them were full Asha'man?). The Asha'man force is increasing in skill and numbers rapidly, while the Damane are remaining relatively the same.

[Muad Cheade]

I wholeheartedly agreed. At Dumai's Wells we saw that the Asha'man are unstoppable. They can lay waste to an army in a way Damane never could because they aren't support troops. Taim made the most powerful army in the genre of fantasy (that I have read) and Rand has never used to effectively! The only time he used them, in TPoD, he did so in a ridiculously stupid manner.

 

Bashere: Rand, you have a million soldiers and 1000 men who can channel. How will you fight the Seanchan?

Rand: With 1000 men and 50 channelers!

 

Why does Rand even command armies? He should have left that to Bashere and actually made use of Mat. He should have snapped up Gareth Bryne too for that matter. Rand has no training and great captains work for him, there is no need for him to command armies. I hope that he leaves it to Mat and the great captains at TG or we may end up with the Light's epic plan being: "Okay, 999,993 of my men stay here with 992 Asha'man, callandor, and Alivia. Nyn, 7 aiel, and 8 Asha'man will then run at Shayol Ghul and hope for the best while I sky dive naked into the volcano."

 

LMFAO. thats exactly what i thought. And yes by far the most powerful army in fantasy, which has seen a total of 2 battles. The first of which was a rescue mission. Rand is by far the stupidest conqueror in the history of anything.

Tell me, pray tell, how you would combat the Seanchan in a hilly, heavy wooded, and muddy terrain with tens of thousands of soldiers. Also, if the battle went against you, how would you retreat quickly?

 

Rand and Bashere made the perfect choice. A smaller, very mobile force is easier to combat the Seanchan in that particular area. If Rand had left when the battle was clearly won, it would've been a smashing victory and I doubt you would be criticizing. The plan was genius. Rand biting off more than he could chew, was not.

[Zentari]

This seems remarkably similar to this topic. And other than Traveling, which is of course a major advantage, I'd be leery of claiming the Asha'man are superior weapons to the damane.

When it comes to pure destructive strength the Asha'man are in lead from what we have seen so far.However there are a few things that keep them down:

 

1)Leadership:I love Rand.I really do.His whole behavior towards ashaman however is inexcusable.How the hell does one claim to be an ashaman, the FIRST ashaman and yet refuse to lead in any way , not to mention delegating said leadership to a person like time.Yeah, he WAS the only one available at the time but he could have gotten rid of him when he thought he had recruited enough men.

 

2)Time: Training in the BT is hard,nothing short of the WO training nothing can match it.Said training though still requires time even if it is exclusively focused on eradicating the enemy.

 

3)Focus:

 

This is a thing that both helps AND hinders the black tower.

 

Aes Sedai focus on a wide aray of agendas and while the have an Ajah dedicated to battle , they haven't shown any kind of competence in that area (not surprising , but that's a discussion for another thread).Windfinders are focused on ship transportation ,not to mention that since it was hidden that they had channelers one can surmise that conflict using OP was not common for them .Same can be said about the WO, afterall their focus was to guide and protect the Aiel.The kin are for obvious reasons not in conflict with anyone.

 

The damane are a special case.While they ARE the only female channelers to be used as weapons it is not their primary designation (that would be all-purpose-tools.Not to mention that since the vast majority of damane belong(ed) to the Empress assuming the the majority of them have not fought seriously in a civil war , one can say that they are not practiced in it.

 

The Asha'man are a different case.Their PRIMARY role is simple: soldiers (or weapons depending on how ruthless one is).They do not care about politics , helping people or anything of the short.They are focused on killing the enemy , winning the last battle and calling it a day.They seem to use OP much more excessively and seem to be trained to use it in a tactical , focused manner than no other group has shown yet.Not to mention that the male half of the power and men in general are much more suited to war (this may come out as misogynistic).

 

You might ask : "So this helps the BT , correct ? " . In a way , yes but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.Said lack of leadership causes BT to be divided and the lack of political and financial support does not help the average Asha'man's case.Heck the BT only got where it is today because the other two groups who could pose a threat (AS and Seanchan) where too busy locking horns either between them (split,leaving them unable to deal with the BT and it's growing influence as they would have in other cases) or stabilizing areas they had conquered (yet they managed to have a tussle or two with the BT when the Seanchan tried to expand again).

 

Those are the reasons that in my opinion have shaped the BT as it is today.

 

1. Leadership- I would say that Taim was the best leader for the job (to make weapons) seeing as how Rand (pre-jesus) has a very limited capacity for war. Taim has very effectively organized them not only as individual weapons, but as a weapon as a whole.

2. Time- While i agree with you that it takes time to train, the earlier arriving recruits have had plenty of time to be effectively trained (Narishma, Flinn, etc.). The do everything with the power, where every other training program prohibits use of power. So comparitively BT trains at a much faster rate.

3. Focus- While i agree with you that in terms of versatility, the BT does not compete, however their use as an army is what i am speaking of, not their ability to negotiate. Because the Band of the Red Hand doesn't have political power, does that make them less effective on the field? NO. Nor does the BT need political or economical power, They are commisioned by Rand and he has plenty of both. So for all intents and purposes their 'focus' is nothing but beneficial.

 

Nor do i think that the White Tower or the Seanchan could ever have posed more than a minimal risk to the BT. BT had travelling far before both, so any threat just leads to a 'withdrawl', while i think you are completely underestimating how quickly they became potent. It is easier and quicker to train someone in just one area, as opposed to a versatile training. And remember the WT did attack, too late obviously, and they were captured because of Rand's order that they were protected, which sounded to me like they could have destroyed them rather quickly. Not too scary. The seanchan were never a threat for they did not have travelling and would have had to march through Andor to get there, causing war with Andor. Yes the seanchan took Altara and Amadicia, two of the weakest countries, neither had any channelling. It was also at a time that Rand held Andor, Cairhien, and Illian (Not to mention the Aiel). Any attack by the Seanchan would have been devastating for the Seanchan, not the BT.

Not to mention that Aes Sedai would be focused on shielding, while the Asha'man would just make them explode..I mean come on, when it comes to battle, Aes Sedai are little more than useless. Now because of Elaida's retarted attack on the BT, women's only advantage (linking), is nullified because BT can link too. Seanchan can't link at all.

1:Arguable.He could have been replaced after setting the standard so to speak.Look what keeping him got.

2:Way for missing my point.I'm not implying they are all half trained.I'm saying that they need more time in order to train all the recruits they get (or used to before Taim started scheming).So in the newest recruits won't be fully trained EVEN with the more focused and exhausting program.If you get a dozen people a day, you won't be able to finish training ALL of them, will you ?

3:Same as above.Did I not mention that said focus has allowed them to be that effective ? Also , while it was an attack , it was nothing short of a joke and the primary reasons for being one are two: Elaida was an idiot and the WT was at war with itself.Their focus being nothing but beneficial is short of arguable.It suits their role but that does not mean it doesn't also hinder them.

[GregDietzFla]

I wholeheartedly agreed. At Dumai's Wells we saw that the Asha'man are unstoppable. They can lay waste to an army in a way Damane never could because they aren't support troops. Taim made the most powerful army in the genre of fantasy (that I have read) and Rand has never used to effectively! The only time he used them, in TPoD, he did so in a ridiculously stupid manner.

 

Bashere: Rand, you have a million soldiers and 1000 men who can channel. How will you fight the Seanchan?

Rand: With 1000 men and 50 channelers!

 

Why does Rand even command armies? He should have left that to Bashere and actually made use of Mat. He should have snapped up Gareth Bryne too for that matter. Rand has no training and great captains work for him, there is no need for him to command armies. I hope that he leaves it to Mat and the great captains at TG or we may end up with the Light's epic plan being: "Okay, 999,993 of my men stay here with 992 Asha'man, callandor, and Alivia. Nyn, 7 aiel, and 8 Asha'man will then run at Shayol Ghul and hope for the best while I sky dive naked into the volcano."

 

LMFAO. thats exactly what i thought. And yes by far the most powerful army in fantasy, which has seen a total of 2 battles. The first of which was a rescue mission. Rand is by far the stupidest conqueror in the history of anything.

Tell me, pray tell, how you would combat the Seanchan in a hilly, heavy wooded, and muddy terrain with tens of thousands of soldiers. Also, if the battle went against you, how would you retreat quickly?

 

Rand and Bashere made the perfect choice. A smaller, very mobile force is easier to combat the Seanchan in that particular area. If Rand had left when the battle was clearly won, it would've been a smashing victory and I doubt you would be criticizing. The plan was genius. Rand biting off more than he could chew, was not.

 

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

[GregDietzFla]

This seems remarkably similar to this topic. And other than Traveling, which is of course a major advantage, I'd be leery of claiming the Asha'man are superior weapons to the damane.

When it comes to pure destructive strength the Asha'man are in lead from what we have seen so far.However there are a few things that keep them down:

 

1)Leadership:I love Rand.I really do.His whole behavior towards ashaman however is inexcusable.How the hell does one claim to be an ashaman, the FIRST ashaman and yet refuse to lead in any way , not to mention delegating said leadership to a person like time.Yeah, he WAS the only one available at the time but he could have gotten rid of him when he thought he had recruited enough men.

 

2)Time: Training in the BT is hard,nothing short of the WO training nothing can match it.Said training though still requires time even if it is exclusively focused on eradicating the enemy.

 

3)Focus:

 

This is a thing that both helps AND hinders the black tower.

 

Aes Sedai focus on a wide aray of agendas and while the have an Ajah dedicated to battle , they haven't shown any kind of competence in that area (not surprising , but that's a discussion for another thread).Windfinders are focused on ship transportation ,not to mention that since it was hidden that they had channelers one can surmise that conflict using OP was not common for them .Same can be said about the WO, afterall their focus was to guide and protect the Aiel.The kin are for obvious reasons not in conflict with anyone.

 

The damane are a special case.While they ARE the only female channelers to be used as weapons it is not their primary designation (that would be all-purpose-tools.Not to mention that since the vast majority of damane belong(ed) to the Empress assuming the the majority of them have not fought seriously in a civil war , one can say that they are not practiced in it.

 

The Asha'man are a different case.Their PRIMARY role is simple: soldiers (or weapons depending on how ruthless one is).They do not care about politics , helping people or anything of the short.They are focused on killing the enemy , winning the last battle and calling it a day.They seem to use OP much more excessively and seem to be trained to use it in a tactical , focused manner than no other group has shown yet.Not to mention that the male half of the power and men in general are much more suited to war (this may come out as misogynistic).

 

You might ask : "So this helps the BT , correct ? " . In a way , yes but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.Said lack of leadership causes BT to be divided and the lack of political and financial support does not help the average Asha'man's case.Heck the BT only got where it is today because the other two groups who could pose a threat (AS and Seanchan) where too busy locking horns either between them (split,leaving them unable to deal with the BT and it's growing influence as they would have in other cases) or stabilizing areas they had conquered (yet they managed to have a tussle or two with the BT when the Seanchan tried to expand again).

 

Those are the reasons that in my opinion have shaped the BT as it is today.

 

1. Leadership- I would say that Taim was the best leader for the job (to make weapons) seeing as how Rand (pre-jesus) has a very limited capacity for war. Taim has very effectively organized them not only as individual weapons, but as a weapon as a whole.

2. Time- While i agree with you that it takes time to train, the earlier arriving recruits have had plenty of time to be effectively trained (Narishma, Flinn, etc.). The do everything with the power, where every other training program prohibits use of power. So comparitively BT trains at a much faster rate.

3. Focus- While i agree with you that in terms of versatility, the BT does not compete, however their use as an army is what i am speaking of, not their ability to negotiate. Because the Band of the Red Hand doesn't have political power, does that make them less effective on the field? NO. Nor does the BT need political or economical power, They are commisioned by Rand and he has plenty of both. So for all intents and purposes their 'focus' is nothing but beneficial.

 

Nor do i think that the White Tower or the Seanchan could ever have posed more than a minimal risk to the BT. BT had travelling far before both, so any threat just leads to a 'withdrawl', while i think you are completely underestimating how quickly they became potent. It is easier and quicker to train someone in just one area, as opposed to a versatile training. And remember the WT did attack, too late obviously, and they were captured because of Rand's order that they were protected, which sounded to me like they could have destroyed them rather quickly. Not too scary. The seanchan were never a threat for they did not have travelling and would have had to march through Andor to get there, causing war with Andor. Yes the seanchan took Altara and Amadicia, two of the weakest countries, neither had any channelling. It was also at a time that Rand held Andor, Cairhien, and Illian (Not to mention the Aiel). Any attack by the Seanchan would have been devastating for the Seanchan, not the BT.

Not to mention that Aes Sedai would be focused on shielding, while the Asha'man would just make them explode..I mean come on, when it comes to battle, Aes Sedai are little more than useless. Now because of Elaida's retarted attack on the BT, women's only advantage (linking), is nullified because BT can link too. Seanchan can't link at all.

1:Arguable.He could have been replaced after setting the standard so to speak.Look what keeping him got.

2:Way for missing my point.I'm not implying they are all half trained.I'm saying that they need more time in order to train all the recruits they get (or used to before Taim started scheming).So in the newest recruits won't be fully trained EVEN with the more focused and exhausting program.If you get a dozen people a day, you won't be able to finish training ALL of them, will you ?

3:Same as above.Did I not mention that said focus has allowed them to be that effective ? Also , while it was an attack , it was nothing short of a joke and the primary reasons for being one are two: Elaida was an idiot and the WT was at war with itself.Their focus being nothing but beneficial is short of arguable.It suits their role but that does not mean it doesn't also hinder them.

 

1. I completely agree. I would have personally 'retired' Taim, and put Flinn in charge.

2. Didnt miss your point. Just pointing out that enough had been trained. and also that half-trained 'recruits'(iknow thats not what your saying they all are) will be more effective in their role within the BT army as a whole, then they would at being support. When surrounded by 100s of other channelers, your impotency is not as disadvantagous, where as in a support position, impotency leads to many deaths. Recruits in BT army just 'follow the lead' of those around them. Not all could have been trained by Dumai's Wells, yet they seem effective enough.

3. I fail to see how their specialization in warfare and battle can hinder them on the battlefield.

Other than being manipulative, i would say most AS fail while in the field (there are exceptions). Keep in mind Elaida didn't plan the raid, whoever she put in charge did. They were launching a surprise attack and were surprised themselves instead. Which is why they were never a threat to the BT.

[moratcorlm]

Once again i will reference Dumai's Wells, where they dispersed the shaido who were also supported by all the Shaido's Wise Ones. So if a clan of Aiel + Wiseones get beaten in a matter of minutes. Can anyone stand against them?

Those Wise Ones and Aiel were being held off by 30-odd Aes Sedai before the Asha'man arrived. The key point is that before Egwene started teaching them (post-LOC), the Wise Ones, Shaido included, had a very limited understanding of how to use the One Power. At Dumai's Wells, the Shaido Wise Ones were absolute beginners who were just copying the weaves the Aes Sedai used against the algai'd'siswai.

 

And as for the algai'd'siswai: yes, it was impressive that Taim's Asha'man liquefied thousands of them within a minute. But it wasn't unique. It was an exhibit of just how totally vulnerable a force of non-channelers is to any channeler who means to kill. Without defenses – and the Shaido Wise Ones who were basically useless against saidar certainly weren't ready to try defending against saidin – a channeler is a weapon of mass destruction. Damane have shown that before in the series – how many times have we heard of one pair wiping out a hundred soldiers?; Rand's display at Maradon was essentially the same, as was the defense against one hundred thousand Trollocs at Algarin's manor.

 

Regarding the damane, seeing as they live for hundreds of years and how there are frequent uprisings in the remote provinces, I'd be surprised if many of them had never faced battle. At the least, it's drilled into them – practically everything Egwene knows about battle weaves, she learned in her six-week Damane 101 course.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Yes because it's the hallmark of a smart strategist to place your whole hand when nigh everything is against you. The terrain was atrocious for what you propose. Lots of trees, valleys and hills which would favor the Seanchan who possess much more efficient and precise scouting abilities than Rand's forces could marshal. Especially when engorging in size. Also you're proposing sending untested men-at-arms from the Legion against a veteran army of a highly mobile, flexible and experienced force. This obviously could never go wrong....

 

Now to the actual joker in play. Using a strong force of Asha'men who are actually Rand's reserve for the TG. They are to face the Seanchan. Do you even remember Dumai Wells? Taim also took losses among his Asha'men despite them surrounding the enemy, choosing the terrain, facing a force where the channelers were not fighting you and even setting a trap. Now imagine the Asha'men losses in a campaign on unsure ground, facing an army that chose the terrain in question, is spread out nicely with lots of reserves, with impeccable communication, possessing channelers in their army whose only purpose has been to be trained as a weapon (many of them for decades and centuries compared to the average Asha'mans mere weeks/months) and possessing versatile/intelligent leadership.

 

If Rand's luck would have run awry. He could have ended up losing a good sum of his invaluable Asha'men. After all it's easier to keep control, maneuver and command a small mobile force than it is to keep up with an entire spread out army with it's countless autonomous divisions.

[Zentari]

Regarding the damane, seeing as they live for hundreds of years and how there are frequent uprisings in the remote provinces, I'd be surprised if many of them had never faced battle. At the least, it's drilled into them – practically everything Egwene knows about battle weaves, she learned in her six-week Damane 101 course.

Uprisings are different that full scale rebellions and given the number of damane , I doubt the vast majority of them have SEEN actual combat.Of course you could say that they sent all the battle tested damane for the return but I highly doubt it.The battle weaves are no indication of actual combat experience either.It's just that the Seanchan are not complete idiots like the AS.Just because your troops don't have experience doesn't mean you won't train them.The point is that the Asha'man training is hard so combining that with hit and run tactics (let's be honest, we don't know how many AM have finished their training or are in battle condition) and shaidin channeling should give them the edge.On the other hand Seanchan have vast forces at their disposal and while the can't get their forces transported fast, they still have good scouts and terrain knowledge.

 

@the Mane of Chaos : I apologize then.I have a tendency to jump the gun, so to speak.

[GregDietzFla]

Once again i will reference Dumai's Wells, where they dispersed the shaido who were also supported by all the Shaido's Wise Ones. So if a clan of Aiel + Wiseones get beaten in a matter of minutes. Can anyone stand against them?

Those Wise Ones and Aiel were being held off by 30-odd Aes Sedai before the Asha'man arrived. The key point is that before Egwene started teaching them (post-LOC), the Wise Ones, Shaido included, had a very limited understanding of how to use the One Power. At Dumai's Wells, the Shaido Wise Ones were absolute beginners who were just copying the weaves the Aes Sedai used against the algai'd'siswai.

 

And as for the algai'd'siswai: yes, it was impressive that Taim's Asha'man liquefied thousands of them within a minute. But it wasn't unique. It was an exhibit of just how totally vulnerable a force of non-channelers is to any channeler who means to kill. Without defenses – and the Shaido Wise Ones who were basically useless against saidar certainly weren't ready to try defending against saidin – a channeler is a weapon of mass destruction. Damane have shown that before in the series – how many times have we heard of one pair wiping out a hundred soldiers?; Rand's display at Maradon was essentially the same, as was the defense against one hundred thousand Trollocs at Algarin's manor.

 

Regarding the damane, seeing as they live for hundreds of years and how there are frequent uprisings in the remote provinces, I'd be surprised if many of them had never faced battle. At the least, it's drilled into them – practically everything Egwene knows about battle weaves, she learned in her six-week Damane 101 course.

 

I was more using Dumai's Wells as the first example of a large group of channelers acting together as an army, instead of as support (Damane). I'm also aware that the damane are very talented weapons as i have stated (damane beats asha'man 1on1 for the most part.) However as i have also stated, hundreds of channellers concentrated on only defending themselves and killing the enemy, is much more deadly than channelers who also have to concentrate on defending the army that they are supporting.

Yes channellers are Weapons of mass destruction, yet it is amplified exponentially with the more you have.

*A question: How many damane do the seanchan have on this continent?(Just curious)

 

Yes because it's the hallmark of a smart strategist to place your whole hand when nigh everything is against you. The terrain was atrocious for what you propose. Lots of trees, valleys and hills which would favor the Seanchan who possess much more efficient and precise scouting abilities than Rand's forces could marshal. Especially when engorging in size. Also you're proposing sending untested men-at-arms from the Legion against a veteran army of a highly mobile, flexible and experienced force. This obviously could never go wrong....

 

Now to the actual joker in play. Using a strong force of Asha'men who are actually Rand's reserve for the TG. They are to face the Seanchan. Do you even remember Dumai Wells? Taim also took losses among his Asha'men despite them surrounding the enemy, choosing the terrain, facing a force where the channelers were not fighting you and even setting a trap. Now imagine the Asha'men losses in a campaign on unsure ground, facing an army that chose the terrain in question, is spread out nicely with lots of reserves, with impeccable communication, possessing channelers in their army whose only purpose has been to be trained as a weapon (many of them for decades and centuries compared to the average Asha'mans mere weeks/months) and possessing versatile/intelligent leadership.

 

If Rand's luck would have run awry. He could have ended up losing a good sum of his invaluable Asha'men. After all it's easier to keep control, maneuver and command a small mobile force than it is to keep up with an entire spread out army with it's countless autonomous divisions.

 

Actually, #1 Rand has much more efficient and precise scouts (Gateway is faster than Raken), #2 I never proposed taking any of the legion with them. I actually proposed taking ONLY channellers. You could not possibly have a more mobile force than that.

And yes i do remember Dumai's Wells, Taim took MINIMAL losses (Taim quotes the lossess in the book, i dont have it with me) while travelling into the MIDDLE of a battlefield(Gateways cut some in half). Once there, and after assuming control of the immediate area, which happened rather quickly btw, i dont think he lost any. I dont recall the seanchan setting a trap, only spreading out to counter the 5 pronged attack launched by Rand. They also dont have impeccable communication (See breakdown of comm. during that same attack), As I also stated elsewhere, lack of training becomes less of an impact when surrounded by 100s of Asha'man working together. And Yes the damane that where at that attack where very good at war, however they were still matched for the most part by 50 Asha'man.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Once again i will reference Dumai's Wells, where they dispersed the shaido who were also supported by all the Shaido's Wise Ones. So if a clan of Aiel + Wiseones get beaten in a matter of minutes. Can anyone stand against them?

Those Wise Ones and Aiel were being held off by 30-odd Aes Sedai before the Asha'man arrived. The key point is that before Egwene started teaching them (post-LOC), the Wise Ones, Shaido included, had a very limited understanding of how to use the One Power. At Dumai's Wells, the Shaido Wise Ones were absolute beginners who were just copying the weaves the Aes Sedai used against the algai'd'siswai.

 

And as for the algai'd'siswai: yes, it was impressive that Taim's Asha'man liquefied thousands of them within a minute. But it wasn't unique. It was an exhibit of just how totally vulnerable a force of non-channelers is to any channeler who means to kill. Without defenses – and the Shaido Wise Ones who were basically useless against saidar certainly weren't ready to try defending against saidin – a channeler is a weapon of mass destruction. Damane have shown that before in the series – how many times have we heard of one pair wiping out a hundred soldiers?; Rand's display at Maradon was essentially the same, as was the defense against one hundred thousand Trollocs at Algarin's manor.

 

Regarding the damane, seeing as they live for hundreds of years and how there are frequent uprisings in the remote provinces, I'd be surprised if many of them had never faced battle. At the least, it's drilled into them – practically everything Egwene knows about battle weaves, she learned in her six-week Damane 101 course.

 

I was more using Dumai's Wells as the first example of a large group of channelers acting together as an army, instead of as support (Damane). I'm also aware that the damane are very talented weapons as i have stated (damane beats asha'man 1on1 for the most part.) However as i have also stated, hundreds of channellers concentrated on only defending themselves and killing the enemy, is much more deadly than channelers who also have to concentrate on defending the army that they are supporting.

Yes channellers are Weapons of mass destruction, yet it is amplified exponentially with the more you have.

*A question: How many damane do the seanchan have on this continent?(Just curious)

 

Yes because it's the hallmark of a smart strategist to place your whole hand when nigh everything is against you. The terrain was atrocious for what you propose. Lots of trees, valleys and hills which would favor the Seanchan who possess much more efficient and precise scouting abilities than Rand's forces could marshal. Especially when engorging in size. Also you're proposing sending untested men-at-arms from the Legion against a veteran army of a highly mobile, flexible and experienced force. This obviously could never go wrong....

 

Now to the actual joker in play. Using a strong force of Asha'men who are actually Rand's reserve for the TG. They are to face the Seanchan. Do you even remember Dumai Wells? Taim also took losses among his Asha'men despite them surrounding the enemy, choosing the terrain, facing a force where the channelers were not fighting you and even setting a trap. Now imagine the Asha'men losses in a campaign on unsure ground, facing an army that chose the terrain in question, is spread out nicely with lots of reserves, with impeccable communication, possessing channelers in their army whose only purpose has been to be trained as a weapon (many of them for decades and centuries compared to the average Asha'mans mere weeks/months) and possessing versatile/intelligent leadership.

 

If Rand's luck would have run awry. He could have ended up losing a good sum of his invaluable Asha'men. After all it's easier to keep control, maneuver and command a small mobile force than it is to keep up with an entire spread out army with it's countless autonomous divisions.

 

Actually, #1 Rand has much more efficient and precise scouts (Gateway is faster than Raken), #2 I never proposed taking any of the legion with them. I actually proposed taking ONLY channellers. You could not possibly have a more mobile force than that.

And yes i do remember Dumai's Wells, Taim took MINIMAL losses (Taim quotes the lossess in the book, i dont have it with me) while travelling into the MIDDLE of a battlefield(Gateways cut some in half). Once there, and after assuming control of the immediate area, which happened rather quickly btw, i dont think he lost any. I dont recall the seanchan setting a trap, only spreading out to counter the 5 pronged attack launched by Rand. They also dont have impeccable communication (See breakdown of comm. during that same attack), As I also stated elsewhere, lack of training becomes less of an impact when surrounded by 100s of Asha'man working together. And Yes the damane that where at that attack where very good at war, however they were still matched for the most part by 50 Asha'man.

 

Hardly. Vision from the air is always superior it's why there is such an emphasis on air superiority or why there is such strong investment in satellites which can deliver live footage of events unfolding down here on earth.

 

Also you seem to be a bit at odds. Inorder to have good communications you require a command center, especially if you have many channelers divided in small groups going forth and fro. Unless you actually propose that all Asha'men are in one large group and not split into commandos? Gathering them all in one space seems incredibly risky and downright foolish. If only for the fact that chaos would ensue once no one has a clear oversight anymore, which is bound to happen once the damane strike back at the collective of Asha'men.

 

Of course they have good communication. How do you think the General always knew where he lost men and which position was struck? In the end they also adapted their strategies to the point that they fought Rand to a stalemate.

[haloun]

Rand was only fought to a stalemate because he chased them to ebou dar where he then encountered the after effects of elaynes weave unraveling. they stated that they had trouble with the weaves, the other reason is that he was in control of callandor instead of being linked with two women and one of them guiding the circle. he killed his own men. remember the seanchan considered it a total loss even after rand left, and while air troops are better for scouting they are useless when hit by lightning or any other weave that would kill them. thereby making the traveling ability of the ashaman much more superior, a good general would also have set up a spot for the groups to return to or send one man back to as a command center. and they can use the power to see better anyways. even in the mountains the ashaman should have been used more effeciently and if they had been they could have chased the seanchan into the sea as rand wanted.

[TheAngryDruid]

Rand had around 50 Asha'man with him during the Seanchan campaign in PoD and the damane gave them a run for their money despite the huge advantage Travelling gave the Asha'man. So I wouldn't say they are unstoppable.

 

Yes he had about 50, 10% of the black tower at worst, probabally more like 5%. How would the seanchan have fared against 500-1,000 asha'man? What if the asha'man hadn't been worried about defending Rand's armies, but just worried about killing? That is the difference between Damane and Asha'man, Damane are SUPPORT troops, while asha'man function as the ARMY itself. Rand did not use the Asha'man in that attack effectively or smartly.

 

A bit off topic, but BTW, did you read ToM? Rand isn't gong to be fighting the war, though he will organize. He is for the DO.

 

"I am not to fight this war, Bashere. Today's battle exhausted me beyond what I should have allowed. If my enemies were to come upon me now, I'd be finished. Besides, I can only fight in one place at a time. What is coming will be grander than that, grander and more terrible than any one man could hope to hold back. I will organize you, but I must leave you. The war will be yours."

 

ToM, A Storm Of Light.

[GregDietzFla]

Hardly. Vision from the air is always superior it's why there is such an emphasis on air superiority or why there is such strong investment in satellites which can deliver live footage of events unfolding down here on earth.

 

Also you seem to be a bit at odds. Inorder to have good communications you require a command center, especially if you have many channelers divided in small groups going forth and fro. Unless you actually propose that all Asha'men are in one large group and not split into commandos? Gathering them all in one space seems incredibly risky and downright foolish. If only for the fact that chaos would ensue once no one has a clear oversight anymore, which is bound to happen once the damane strike back at the collective of Asha'men.

 

Of course they have good communication. How do you think the General always knew where he lost men and which position was struck? In the end they also adapted their strategies to the point that they fought Rand to a stalemate.

 

As for their raken, yes they are good but what they lack is the ability to instantly report to their commanders.

 

A command center like what they used at Dumai's Wells. Impenetrable dome, Good luck stiking back damane. And obviously i dont mean just have them all stand around together and wait for the damane to kill them. I would assume that Taim has some type of tactics for using the soldiers that he has trained.

 

Maybe i misread that battle, but i was under the impression that by the end their communication had for the most part broken down, which is why the 2nd in command said something like 'gather who you can find and fall back' or some such.

 

Rand had around 50 Asha'man with him during the Seanchan campaign in PoD and the damane gave them a run for their money despite the huge advantage Travelling gave the Asha'man. So I wouldn't say they are unstoppable.

 

Yes he had about 50, 10% of the black tower at worst, probabally more like 5%. How would the seanchan have fared against 500-1,000 asha'man? What if the asha'man hadn't been worried about defending Rand's armies, but just worried about killing? That is the difference between Damane and Asha'man, Damane are SUPPORT troops, while asha'man function as the ARMY itself. Rand did not use the Asha'man in that attack effectively or smartly.

 

A bit off topic, but BTW, did you read ToM? Rand isn't gong to be fighting the war, though he will organize. He is for the DO.

 

"I am not to fight this war, Bashere. Today's battle exhausted me beyond what I should have allowed. If my enemies were to come upon me now, I'd be finished. Besides, I can only fight in one place at a time. What is coming will be grander than that, grander and more terrible than any one man could hope to hold back. I will organize you, but I must leave you. The war will be yours."

 

ToM, A Storm Of Light.

 

I have read it, and i am extremely excited that he has finally given over control of the armies to the generals. Although at this point he is probabally a better general than all except mat (LTT memories), so it doesnt really make sense anymore.

[Muad Cheade]

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Also, the Seanchan could match those numbers with the damane they have in Ebou Dar.

 

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

Yes, because jumping into a city in which hundreds of thousands of Seanchan just recently landed is strategic genius.

[GregDietzFla]

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Also, the Seanchan could match those numbers with the damane they have in Ebou Dar.

 

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

Yes, because jumping into a city in which hundreds of thousands of Seanchan just recently landed is strategic genius.

 

1. Where is it shown that they have this number?(Don't doubt you, just wondering what their numbers are) I assumed because they only collar those with the spark that their numbers would be drastically lower. Overkill, while not always a good strategy, sometimes will work much better than finess.

2. When facing an army of channelers, Dumai's Wells and the Manor showed that the amount of soldiers has very little to do with the outcome. It is all about the number and efficiacy of the channelers.

[ajfurst]

#1. If battle in that area, what would be better. the army they took, or 500 channellers. Which would be more mobile, and which more deadly??

It is never wise to put all your eggs in one basket. Also, the Seanchan could match those numbers with the damane they have in Ebou Dar.

 

#2. Why fight there at all. Why not jump to Ebou Dar and cut the heart out of the beast. Funny a great-captain couldn't think of that.

Yes, because jumping into a city in which hundreds of thousands of Seanchan just recently landed is strategic genius.

Rand was whipping the Seanchan and Damane until Ebou Dar when the Seanchan were up to 200 - 500 damane and 50 thousand soldiers (all fresh from being sitting around Ebou Dar) against Rand's battle weary remaining < 50 Asha'man and 5000 odd remaining troops. I.e. it took the Seanchan 4 - 10 times odds to force the Asha'man onto the back foot.

 

Rand made many mistakes around Ebou Dar. First and foremost was on deciding to attack Ebou Dar not adjusting his forces for facing a large army rather then hit and run raids. If Rand had sent for reinforcements (another 100 - 150 Asha'man) from the Black Tower AND the 200 strongest Wise Ones (you know the one's that other then 100 odd at Dumai's Wells have been several thousand channelers sitting on their arses doing nothing whilst the world is in peril) plus 30 - 50k of the Aiel spear carriers and he could have easily wiped the Seanchan out.

 

Pair Wise Ones with Asha'man with spear carriers to protect them. A small group of 2 -3 channelers plus 2 - 3 bodyguards. Wise Ones to block incoming Damane weaves, Asha'man to attack. Split the force in two. Half to engage the Seanchan army (still enough Asha'man to force a standstill). Then once they 'come out to play' the other half to Travel into Ebou Dar whilst the army is in the field and capture the palace and damane kennels (with 10 Asha'man dressed like Ebou Dari to blow the Seanchan ships to bits, without any Aes Sedai handwaving to shout 'It's me! Attack me out of 100's of random people on the docks watching the ships sink!'.

 

Of course that would have ended the Seanchan threat back in book 8, but then this thread is at least in part about how bloody awful Rand has been at using the forces at his disposal.