Taim vs. Logain

[blazetheearth]

BTW why does Rand "need" them. He has the Wise Ones. I know it would be nice to have them on your side, but it's not necessary, and never was. I think that's why he ignores them for the entire series.

 

Why do you think he 'needs' them. The AS think that Rand will need them, but he doesn't . It was originally thought by the characters (Moiraine, Bashere, others...) that he needed the WT, but now that he has AS sworn to him, the only one that he 'needed' was Cadsuane. Now, he doesn't need her, but in his own mind he 'needs' Nynaeve, because she is one of the only women he trusts to link with him to use Callandor, but otherwise there is no mention of Rand 'needing' the WT at all. This is definitely not a view supported by the WT, but what those witches women think is virtually pointless and useless. If there were more than 1 in 100 that are more than useless then he might need them, but the WT as we have seen it (and as an institution) is useless unless you want to bully people, and I think Rand can bully enough people by himself.

[GregDietzFla]

The Amasalam thing is interesting

That's funny. It's like (Guaire) Amalasan + Alsalam (king of Arad Doman).

 

Yea, those 2 names where always too close for me... Maybe they are one in the same.:)

 

BTW why does Rand "need" them. He has the Wise Ones. I know it would be nice to have them on your side, but it's not necessary, and never was. I think that's why he ignores them for the entire series.

 

Why do you think he 'needs' them. The AS think that Rand will need them, but he doesn't . It was originally thought by the characters (Moiraine, Bashere, others...) that he needed the WT, but now that he has AS sworn to him, the only one that he 'needed' was Cadsuane. Now, he doesn't need her, but in his own mind he 'needs' Nynaeve, because she is one of the only women he trusts to link with him to use Callandor, but otherwise there is no mention of Rand 'needing' the WT at all. This is definitely not a view supported by the WT, but what those witches women think is virtually pointless and useless. If there were more than 1 in 100 that are more than useless then he might need them, but the WT as we have seen it (and as an institution) is useless unless you want to bully people, and I think Rand can bully enough people by himself.

 

I dont think he does need them, i assumed that that was the general consensus (apparently i assumed wrong). Im not sure why i put quotes around the need, if thats what made you think that i thought that he needed them.

Also, another question, If callandor is flawed, because it lacks a buffer that most sa'angreal have, allowing the taint to run wild. Why, now that theres no taint, would he still have to link?

 

EDIT: I will add that i agree that the WT is useless, and thinks that 1 in 100 being more than useless is giving them too much credit.

[blazetheearth]

The Amasalam thing is interesting

That's funny. It's like (Guaire) Amalasan + Alsalam (king of Arad Doman).

 

Yea, those 2 names where always too close for me... Maybe they are one in the same.:)

 

BTW why does Rand "need" them. He has the Wise Ones. I know it would be nice to have them on your side, but it's not necessary, and never was. I think that's why he ignores them for the entire series.

 

Why do you think he 'needs' them. The AS think that Rand will need them, but he doesn't . It was originally thought by the characters (Moiraine, Bashere, others...) that he needed the WT, but now that he has AS sworn to him, the only one that he 'needed' was Cadsuane. Now, he doesn't need her, but in his own mind he 'needs' Nynaeve, because she is one of the only women he trusts to link with him to use Callandor, but otherwise there is no mention of Rand 'needing' the WT at all. This is definitely not a view supported by the WT, but what those witches women think is virtually pointless and useless. If there were more than 1 in 100 that are more than useless then he might need them, but the WT as we have seen it (and as an institution) is useless unless you want to bully people, and I think Rand can bully enough people by himself.

 

I dont think he does need them, i assumed that that was the general consensus (apparently i assumed wrong). Im not sure why i put quotes around the need, if thats what made you think that i thought that he needed them.

Also, another question, If callandor is flawed, because it lacks a buffer that most sa'angreal have, allowing the taint to run wild. Why, now that theres no taint, would he still have to link?

 

You didn't put need in quotes, I did just for reference. Blame it on having raised a teenager who thought that everything from a cell phone to designer jeans were a 'need' not just a want. Sorry if it came across as overly forceful.

 

The characters think it's flawed in that way, but personally, I think that the flaw is really just that it doesn't buffer a man against channeling too much saidin. If that is the major flaw, then using it in a circle would bypass the flaw because a circle provides its own built-in buffer against drawing too much. I think there are a couple of reasons why Callandor has been described with more than the one flaw. One of those is simply the opinion of the women who were to see to its safekeeping (the same ones we see in Rand's Ruidean vision). A circle of 2 (1 man/1 woman) means a man must control it, while a circle of 3 (1 man/ 2 women) requires a woman to control them. The women that we last see having possession of the Crystal Sword could have easily written whatever it was that Cadsuane read that told her it required a circle of 3, and as for why they would lie...well the Breaking had already started so it's easy to think that they would want the world that remained to think that the only way a man could use the sa'angreal was by a linking that would allow a woman to have full control.

 

edit: I don't know, 1 of 100 seems about right, I can think of 9 AS that I don't hate and that aren't useless by the time ToM is finished. Well, at least 7 or 8.

[GregDietzFla]

The Amasalam thing is interesting

That's funny. It's like (Guaire) Amalasan + Alsalam (king of Arad Doman).

 

Yea, those 2 names where always too close for me... Maybe they are one in the same.:)

 

BTW why does Rand "need" them. He has the Wise Ones. I know it would be nice to have them on your side, but it's not necessary, and never was. I think that's why he ignores them for the entire series.

 

Why do you think he 'needs' them. The AS think that Rand will need them, but he doesn't . It was originally thought by the characters (Moiraine, Bashere, others...) that he needed the WT, but now that he has AS sworn to him, the only one that he 'needed' was Cadsuane. Now, he doesn't need her, but in his own mind he 'needs' Nynaeve, because she is one of the only women he trusts to link with him to use Callandor, but otherwise there is no mention of Rand 'needing' the WT at all. This is definitely not a view supported by the WT, but what those witches women think is virtually pointless and useless. If there were more than 1 in 100 that are more than useless then he might need them, but the WT as we have seen it (and as an institution) is useless unless you want to bully people, and I think Rand can bully enough people by himself.

 

I dont think he does need them, i assumed that that was the general consensus (apparently i assumed wrong). Im not sure why i put quotes around the need, if thats what made you think that i thought that he needed them.

Also, another question, If callandor is flawed, because it lacks a buffer that most sa'angreal have, allowing the taint to run wild. Why, now that theres no taint, would he still have to link?

 

You didn't put need in quotes, I did just for reference. Blame it on having raised a teenager who thought that everything from a cell phone to designer jeans were a 'need' not just a want. Sorry if it came across as overly forceful.

 

The characters think it's flawed in that way, but personally, I think that the flaw is really just that it doesn't buffer a man against channeling too much saidin. If that is the major flaw, then using it in a circle would bypass the flaw because a circle provides its own built-in buffer against drawing too much. I think there are a couple of reasons why Callandor has been described with more than the one flaw. One of those is simply the opinion of the women who were to see to its safekeeping (the same ones we see in Rand's Ruidean vision). A circle of 2 (1 man/1 woman) means a man must control it, while a circle of 3 (1 man/ 2 women) requires a woman to control them. The women that we last see having possession of the Crystal Sword could have easily written whatever it was that Cadsuane read that told her it required a circle of 3, and as for why they would lie...well the Breaking had already started so it's easy to think that they would want the world that remained to think that the only way a man could use the sa'angreal was by a linking that would allow a woman to have full control.

 

edit: I don't know, 1 of 100 seems about right, I can think of 9 AS that I don't hate and that aren't useless by the time ToM is finished. Well, at least 7 or 8.

 

You didn't come across as overly forceful, but just forceful enough. :). Ah that would make more sense. Just seemed wierd to me that the sa'angreal intended for the DR couldn't actually be used by him (safely). Do we know when it was created?? I would imagine the AOL, in which case, why did they forget the buffer?

 

P.s. Ah, wait, how many AS are there? Im not really an AS fan because they mostly annoy me, so the ones i can think of that aren't useless... Nyn, Moraine, Cadsuane, Pevara... help me out here. i know im forgetting some, but thats prolly cuz it 6 in the morning here...

[blazetheearth]

You didn't come across as overly forceful, but just forceful enough. :). Ah that would make more sense. Just seemed wierd to me that the sa'angreal intended for the DR couldn't actually be used by him (safely). Do we know when it was created?? I would imagine the AOL, in which case, why did they forget the buffer?

 

P.s. Ah, wait, how many AS are there? Im not really an AS fan because they mostly annoy me, so the ones i can think of that aren't useless... Nyn, Moraine, Cadsuane, Pevara... help me out here. i know im forgetting some, but thats prolly cuz it 6 in the morning here...

 

IIRC, it was supposedly created late in the War of Power, after most of the tech infrastructure fell apart or was destroyed. It definitely was not part of the mass production era of the AoL though, and most likely the Prophecy of the Dragon was given around the time that it was created, or maybe a little after it was created. Which would mean that it was simply created to be a very powerful sa-angreal, not specifically for the DR to use. Most likely the DR part came about after the sword.

 

Around 1000 AS at the start of the series, something like 940 or 950 IIRC. When the Tower splits, they mention that about 1/3 are in the WT, 1/3 are in Salidar, and 1/3 decided to sit out the troubles. Around that time they are also talking about close to 300 AS in Salidar. And I think that when Seonid and Masuri find out about how many Shaido WO's are channeling in Malden, IIRC one of them said something like "half of the White Tower from one clan" expressing shock at how many Aiel Wilders there were. And we were told that there were around 400-500 WO with Sevanna.

 

As far as Aes Sedai that aren't useless, I like the 4 you mentioned and also, Verin, Merana (didn't like her at first, but after the WO's 'apprenticed' her for a while, she became a lot less useless), Daigan, Vandene and Aldeleas (sp). Granted 4 of those 5 are now dead, but I think they still count as examples.

[GregDietzFla]

You didn't come across as overly forceful, but just forceful enough. :). Ah that would make more sense. Just seemed wierd to me that the sa'angreal intended for the DR couldn't actually be used by him (safely). Do we know when it was created?? I would imagine the AOL, in which case, why did they forget the buffer?

 

P.s. Ah, wait, how many AS are there? Im not really an AS fan because they mostly annoy me, so the ones i can think of that aren't useless... Nyn, Moraine, Cadsuane, Pevara... help me out here. i know im forgetting some, but thats prolly cuz it 6 in the morning here...

 

IIRC, it was supposedly created late in the War of Power, after most of the tech infrastructure fell apart or was destroyed. It definitely was not part of the mass production era of the AoL though, and most likely the Prophecy of the Dragon was given around the time that it was created, or maybe a little after it was created. Which would mean that it was simply created to be a very powerful sa-angreal, not specifically for the DR to use. Most likely the DR part came about after the sword.

 

Around 1000 AS at the start of the series, something like 940 or 950 IIRC. When the Tower splits, they mention that about 1/3 are in the WT, 1/3 are in Salidar, and 1/3 decided to sit out the troubles. Around that time they are also talking about close to 300 AS in Salidar. And I think that when Seonid and Masuri find out about how many Shaido WO's are channeling in Malden, IIRC one of them said something like "half of the White Tower from one clan" expressing shock at how many Aiel Wilders there were. And we were told that there were around 400-500 WO with Sevanna.

 

As far as Aes Sedai that aren't useless, I like the 4 you mentioned and also, Verin, Merana (didn't like her at first, but after the WO's 'apprenticed' her for a while, she became a lot less useless), Daigan, Vandene and Aldeleas (sp). Granted 4 of those 5 are now dead, but I think they still count as examples.

 

ah, but since they r now dead the ratio would fall back to less than 1 in a 100. Thanks for clarifying the numbers, that helps a lot.

EDIT: likes the green, who after the seanchan attack basically laughs at her own title as marshal general or whatever it is. Think she is still useless, but i like her cause she knows it too...

[Ashandarei]

EDIT: likes the green, who after the seanchan attack basically laughs at her own title as marshal general or whatever it is. Think she is still useless, but i like her cause she knows it too...

 

Adelorna Bastine , captain-general :)

[seanisking]

A lurker here.

 

Taim reveals himself to be just a flunky here imo. Anyone with knowledge of the AoL would have seen how useful Androl's talent is, not because of the gateways, but because of the deathgates he could make. Regardless of how it goes down, once the dreamspike is removed and someone shows Androl how to make a deathgate, he'll be the ultimate weapon, I would guess that deathgate-wise he could challenge Rand.

[sukitiki]

I think Taim is acting on his own and not under Moridin's orders. My reasons:

1) Earlier in the series, someone sent a hundred thousand trollocs through the ways that was dressing up like Saummuel. Back then, the only people to have that power were Demondred, Taim and Logain and RJ confirmed that Demondred is not Taim. I think its pretty clear that Taim sent those trollocs and why would Moridin not know about it if Taim was Moridin's tool. This also proves that Taim is not Moridin.

2) My timelines are kinda fuzzy but Moridin said the other dreamspike is being put to a good use well before Taim got it. We know that it was only recently that one could not Travel to the BT, so what if Taim used Luc/Isam to retrieve another DS and then used it for his own needs. I think he's commmanded Slayer before too, i might be mistaken.

[Sasha Grayes]

You are giving AS too much credit. Considering your top gun , (Egwene) is worse than useless. I'm sure the rest would be much worse.

[Luckers]

Let's keep the Egwene/Aes Sedai vitriol in check people. Constructive comments please.

[Suttree]

You are giving AS too much credit. Considering your top gun , (Egwene) is worse than useless. I'm sure the rest would be much worse.

 

Assuming you're just trolling given the way she dispatched the Seanchan but in terms of the BT per the author Pevara has a moment of awesome coming up. Presumably this includes other AS as well.

[Vardar]

Dang I hate Eggy, but I wouldn't call her useless. Dense perhaps. A Jerk, sure. but useless.

 

And Pervara has a moment coming up? IS that a quote from somewhere? Where do you people get these quotes

[Suttree]

Dang I hate Eggy, but I wouldn't call her useless. Dense perhaps. A Jerk, sure. but useless.

 

And Pervara has a moment coming up? IS that a quote from somewhere? Where do you people get these quotes

 

http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php