Crossroads of Twilight - Frustration

[plague fiend]

I have the same issue with the series HighWiredSith. I've read CoS, PoD, WH and I'm half way through CoT in the last two weeks and I'm starting to remember why I put the series down many years ago. I found myself thumbing through the chapters to get an idea of when I would get through Elayne and Egwene to get back to something tangible. Too much irrelevant information(you could throw out 1/4 of this book and would miss very little) being laid down, and some not believable. I would rather read about sub-plots that have been dropped.

[randsc]

I think in the hands of a different author the meat and heart of the series could have been done in about 8 books.

 

the hands of a different author would have been unable to extricate the "meat and the heart of the series" from the actual author's mind.

 

this was, is, and G-d willing, always will be, RJ's story, and this is the way he told it. he is the creator of this particular little universe. there are definitely things that frustrate me about it, and there are definitely valid criticisms to be made, as there are of any work - perfection isn't a human quality.

 

i'm a fairly critical person, so i do get the frustration y'all are expressing, and i've expressed it myself.

 

but the suggestion that someone else would have done a better job with RJ's story, his life's work, just seems insulting to his memory, to his work, and to those of us who, despite all criticism, love both. imo, anyway.

 

Maybe not another author, but the series could sure as hell use a more aggressive editor.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

granted.

[plague fiend]

KoD has proven to be a better read IMHO but frankly the whole Elaine story arc grates on my very last nerve. This entire "I'm pregnant and moody while trying to fend off a siege and win the Lion throne completely on my own" thing is about to do me in. Thankfully I just powered through her chapters. I know this is big picture stuff but I really fail to see how the fortunes or misfortunes of one of many monarchies has any impact on Toman Gaidan and/or the last battle. The White Tower and the Aes Sedai must be present to fight with the Dragon Reborn so Egewene's story line is of utmost importance. Matt and Perrin are Taverin and must be with Rand when he faces the dark one - The Seanchan even seem to be factoring into the last battle now and possibly the Whitecloaks though we so precious little of them. But frankly I've yet to see how the Lion Throne or the eating and drinking habits (and tender breasts) of an immature, pregnant, whiny girl have any real meaning in the bigger story.

 

Maybe the connection is coming, maybe not.

I totally agree with you. The fact that she wants to keep Andor strong is believable, however the whole thing could have been para-phrased into 3 pages, seriously. The fact that she wants to somehow save Andor from the shadow of the Dragon Reborn is mentally challenged. Example(one of the many): She takes over Rands inventors/library in Caemyln and changes it to her own creation, for Andor. There are much better things to write about and that have a greater impact on the story.

[ShenAnCalhar]

I have to say about KoD without giving too much away - Mat's arc towards the end includes some of the most awesome scenes, military and otherwise, in the entire series (up there with Gawyn and Galad getting pwned with a stick, Rhuidean, Dumai's Wells, Deathgates/Blossoms of Fire, and countless others). His interplay with Tuon is always hilarious.

 

And I have to throw some Elayne-bashing in here as well. She gets all indignant about hearing people say Rand will "put her on the Lion Throne," but does nothing to aid Andor when she hears Morgase is dead (which to her knowledge is decaying into civil war). Rand steps in and fixes the mess, reserves her crown from multitudes of plotting nobles, and positions her to rule. But before returning, she goes all crybaby when Mat won't let her borrow his property and undermines his authority in front of his troops. Hours after he saves her from the Gholam, she conveniently forgets and manipulates him into maneuvering the Sea Folk for her. That's just a small slice - she's a pretty awful person.

 

And don't worry too much about Perrin. He was great back in his Battle of the Two Rivers days, then got very unlikeable/emo, but his ascent to being super-metal in 2 books is stunningly awesome.

[Terrel88]

Personally I think KoD has one of the best prologues in the series, only bettered by tEotW (on the second read!). Some interesting secondary characters get screen-time and yes, it's a bit slow, but there is some awesome action. I felt tGS was one of the best books in the series, but didn't really like ToM. In short, keep reading!! CoT is generally accepted to be the worst book in the series, so hang on in there

[child of light]

COT is the only book i haven't reread...

I wasn't able to read it my first two times through the series. Only on my third read through, just now, was I able to read CoT cover-to-cover. It's almost enjoyable now, but it really does feel like a missing chapter, or deleted scenes, not something you have to read.

 

just how I feel about it....Will Reread some time....

[PhoenixUK]

 

And I have to throw some Elayne-bashing in here as well.

 

the worst has got to be her line in TOM about "I'm glad I didn't execute you now."

 

I wanted to tear the book apart in rage when I read that! I generally like elayne but she can be so infuriating!

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i know the girls aren't very popular around here, but i think they're very well written very young women, as the boys are very well written very young men. with a lot more power and responsibility than most people their age. they all have issues learning to deal with that power and responsibility gracefully, like real people do. i might not want to spend much time with any of them if they were real people, but i do enjoy reading about them most of the time. i like almost every character that's part of the main stories.

 

oh, and on another note, i think from this thread or one very much like it, i paid extra attention to the duggar show this week (yes, i admit it, i watch really stupid TV shows) to see whether they cross their arms over or under. i was surprised to note that the overhwelming majority cross under. i would have guessed over, but apparently RJ's more observant than me.

[randsc]

i was surprised to note that the overhwelming majority cross under. i would have guessed over, but apparently RJ's more observant than me.

 

Or his attention was just focussed differently.

[yoniy0]

the worst has got to be her line in TOM about "I'm glad I didn't execute you now."

 

I wanted to tear the book apart in rage when I read that! I generally like elayne but she can be so infuriating!

I think it's clear to all but the most adamant Elayne hater that she was not serious about that threat. She knew that wouldn't fly. Indeed, Perrin himself knows this; all he does in response is snort.

His flying the Red Eagle is no small issue to the Queen of Andor. Not just any rebel, but a close friend to the DR (which would make the issue tender even if she weren't carrying Rand's children), one whose wife will one day ascend to Saldea's throne. Andor could be facing a very large threat in Perrin, so she maneuvers for advantage. It didn't work with Perrin, but should we condemn her for trying? And before you answer, keep in mind that Rand has threatened to execute nobles for going behind his back on tax-related issues. And he most definitely was serious.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i was surprised to note that the overhwelming majority cross under. i would have guessed over, but apparently RJ's more observant than me.

 

Or his attention was just focussed differently.

 

 

both, i'm sure.

[vanceme]

Random side note referring to first post. The only time I have ever actually thrown a book across the room was when I read the "end" of Stephen king's dark tower series

[HighWiredSith]

I finished Knife of Dreams around 2:00 this afternoon and this evening dove headlong into The Gathering Storm. I'm less than ten pages in (not counting Sanderson's forward which I admit brought tears to my eyes) and was quite shocked at how the different writing style struck me like a hammer. I've pretty much plowed through Crown of Swords to Knife of Dreams in just shy of a year, reading almost every day for an hour here and there so I've grown quite accustomed to RJ's writing style, particularly the way he focuses on subtleties and nonverbal hints with his characters, often at the expense of more sweeping, hard hitting, albeit typical fantasy prose. The opening pages of TGS are so, well, different. This will mark the first thing from Brandon Sanderson I've read (if it counts) and he reminds me a great deal of writers like R.J. Salvatore and Patrick Rothfuss. I can also tell he's young - and I can't even begin to explain why except to say that there's a certain, how to say it, tone or pacing in his writing that speaks of urgency, of getting at vital information as quickly as possible and moving the story along, the lack of which, at times, has driven me absolutely nuts reading through WoT and yet I've grown to admire the way Jordan can literally describe a room full of characters in ten or more pages and when he's done you can practically read the minds of everyone mentioned.

 

It's kind of exciting to be this close to the end, with the final novel due in what, just over a year now...and sad too. This afternoon I read along the final 30 pages of so of KoD with the audiobook playing in my ear buds. The book concluded with a short interview with Robert Jordan. I felt so...sad. He talked about his inspiration for the series and the writing process. How tragic he never got to finish it.

[yoniy0]

It might interest you that the first scene from TGS prologue was RJ's. And so was most of the rest of it, if I'm not mistaken.

[Zentari]

the worst has got to be her line in TOM about "I'm glad I didn't execute you now."

 

I wanted to tear the book apart in rage when I read that! I generally like elayne but she can be so infuriating!

I think it's clear to all but the most adamant Elayne hater that she was not serious about that threat. She knew that wouldn't fly. Indeed, Perrin himself knows this; all he does in response is snort.

His flying the Red Eagle is no small issue to the Queen of Andor. Not just any rebel, but a close friend to the DR (which would make the issue tender even if she weren't carrying Rand's children), one whose wife will one day ascend to Saldea's throne. Andor could be facing a very large threat in Perrin, so she maneuvers for advantage. It didn't work with Perrin, but should we condemn her for trying? And before you answer, keep in mind that Rand has threatened to execute nobles for going behind his back on tax-related issues. And he most definitely was serious.

Perhaps I'm one of those so called haters but I fail to see the 'lightness' in her threat.Sure, she WAS bluffing in that case because she knew that even if she managed to take him on it would be very costly but what would have happened if she HAD the power to deal with him and regarded him as you say one of the biggest threats to her kingdom ? Personally, I wouldn't put it above her to execute him and be done with it.

 

Also, love the comparison to Rand [/sarcasm] but let's not open that can of worms here,again.

[yoniy0]

I fail to see the 'lightness' in her threat.Sure, she WAS bluffing in that case

Well, then, you don't fail to see it at all. You acknowledge that she was bluffing, meaning that there was no real intent behind that threat; it was merely a way to jostle for advantage in their negotiations.

 

but what would have happened if she HAD the power to deal with him and regarded him as you say one of the biggest threats to her kingdom ?

Well, we know she wouldn't have executed him out of pettiness. She had her chance to execute others who've wronged her (and Andor) in Naean, Arymilla and Elenia, but since their deaths weren't to benefit Andor, she refrained from doing that. To avert a real threat to Andor, one would have to hope that the Queen will be willing to act harshly. Even toward a (relatively) close friend. I don't see anything wrong with that; in fact, it's quite noble.

 

Also, I stand behind what I said about Rand. You can't forbid the issue of a double standard from the discussion. Unless you suggest that the question of Elayne's character is irrelevant to people's frustration about CoT?

[Treemaster]

I must be crazy, because I think CoT is better than KoD. Not because of the story -- I didn't find the story particularly interesting in either book. But I thought CoT was much better written. The sentences were more lyrical, and the descriptions and dialogue more interesting. KoD just didn't engage me at all on any level. When Faile helps Perrin kill the Shaido guy, I almost stopped reading the series.

 

Both books are much more enjoyable on a reread than the first time.

[zidfrekle]

If I had to choose, I would say WH was my least favorite books in the series. I have never been able to say why, there's just something about it that bothers me. It's still a good book, but that would be the one that I could most easily put down.

[Zentari]

 

Well, then, you don't fail to see it at all. You acknowledge that she was bluffing, meaning that there was no real intent behind that threat; it was merely a way to jostle for advantage in their negotiations.

A very polite way of putting it.

 

Well, we know she wouldn't have executed him out of pettiness. She had her chance to execute others who've wronged her (and Andor) in Naean, Arymilla and Elenia, but since their deaths weren't to benefit Andor, she refrained from doing that. To avert a real threat to Andor, one would have to hope that the Queen will be willing to act harshly. Even toward a (relatively) close friend. I don't see anything wrong with that; in fact, it's quite noble.

Actually one would hope that the queen would be ABLE to act harshly but not be willing too often.Also disagree on the second part.

 

 

Also, I stand behind what I said about Rand. You can't forbid the issue of a double standard from the discussion. Unless you suggest that the question of Elayne's character is irrelevant to people's frustration about CoT?

For example , Elayne had just finished a civil war in order for her bloodline to be recognized as the rightful rules once more.Rand conquered everything in his way with an iron fist.Already the differences are showing.

 

I'm not suggesting that the choices they made weren't similar or that I disagree with your notion,I'm just pointing out that Rand did it too is not in any way an argument.If one were to analyze both their respective position and draw conclusions as well as bringing the similarities to the front, THEN it would an argument.

 

Still, I don't see how discussing something that has already discussed to death can help.

[yoniy0]

I won't force the issue. Wouldn't help me if I tried anyway; takes two to tango, as they say.

Suffice it to say that my view (on rhetorics and morality) differs from yours.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think it says something about how well the characters are written that people respond to them as if they were real.

[Sleeper]

i think it says something about how well the characters are written that people respond to them as if they were real.

It's also just the fact that we've known them for so long that we are invested in them. The series has been going on for decades.

[yoniy0]

i think it says something about how well the characters are written that people respond to them as if they were real.

I don't know about that; many people react that way to Bella Swan (enough said, me thinks). Still, I do think that they're well written. That's what I love about WoT, the characters and how they react to one another.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

my personal reaction to bella (that's the twilight girl?) is a microcosm of my reaction to the whole awful thing. i don't read millions of words about her and hate her. i get bella'd against my will by a youngster, and pretty much hate the whole experience, especially as exemplified by the character of bella, who has to be the worst young female role model since the little mermaid. if she was written better i might hate her as i might (but hopefully wouldn't) hate an actual human being. i hate everyone in the movies, and wouldn't willingly subject myself to the books.

 

except that werewolf boy, cause he's pretty cute. and what the hell is bella thinking going for the pale wasted junkie vampire guy who treats her like crap when she could have that adorable, warm, big shaggy puppy boy with the dopey look on his face.

 

what was my point? um. . . oh, yeah. my point was, for someone who actually likes reading the series, the apparently genuine hatred of a fictional character within it seems to speak to the depths of immersion in the world that the writing creates. cause i can't think of another good reason for anyone to get so angry about pretend people.

 

imo. just mine.

Edited March 5, 2011 by cindy