Which two Aes Sedai will Mat choose between?

[Grandis]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

 

If he had opened the letter at the earliest opportunity(10 days after receiving it, IIRC), he could have spent a couple of hours getting to Elayne and warning her, then left Caemlyn 20 days ahead of schedule. No plot element was introduced in that time that aided him inside the tower of Ghenjei, so events would likely have transpired in much the same way. The only possible difference would have been the gholam. I'm not sure when he dealt with that in the timeline, but even that would not have affected his actions inside ToG. In this scenario, both Moiraine and Caemlyn are saved.

 

With that I disagree. By opening the letter, his decision would have bound him to follow Verin's request, which informing the queen, would have required him to stay until the invasion occurred, and then delayed him from rescuing Moraine, and potentially stopped him from saving the world.

 

While we are playing the what if game, what if delaying just by a few more days would have caused Oliver to not be able to win while playing snakes and foxes, and ultimately doomed the rescue attempt.

 

Update: Verin's request not Perrin's.

 

In what way would he have been required to stay until the invasion occurred? We're talking about serious choke-point at the waygate. A couple of circles of thirteen to counter any channellers and smite the trollocs, plus a hundred crossbowmen with twice their number supplying them with reloads. That's pretty much a recipe for slaughter with precisely zero need for Mat's presence. If you absolutely, positively must have a ta'veren there's always Perrin. He's got a pretty decent track-record with battles.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Mat will be forced to choose between following Rand or Egwene at Merrilor. Lews Therin Telamon was Aes Sedai, and very much still considers himself so considering how often Rand addressed Aes Sedai as "little sister" or similar. Egwene is also Aes Sedai.

[yoshinobu]

I'm thinking its Rand and Eggy. He already thinks that Rand is insane. So it is not as if he will just jump on the bandwagon with Rand and Perrin. He will have a real decision to make, and that decision could be the decision in question. As was mentiond before, both Rand and Eggy are Aes Sedai.

[randsc]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

 

If he had opened the letter at the earliest opportunity(10 days after receiving it, IIRC), he could have spent a couple of hours getting to Elayne and warning her, then left Caemlyn 20 days ahead of schedule. No plot element was introduced in that time that aided him inside the tower of Ghenjei, so events would likely have transpired in much the same way. The only possible difference would have been the gholam. I'm not sure when he dealt with that in the timeline, but even that would not have affected his actions inside ToG. In this scenario, both Moiraine and Caemlyn are saved.

 

With that I disagree. By opening the letter, his decision would have bound him to follow Verin's request, which informing the queen, would have required him to stay until the invasion occurred, and then delayed him from rescuing Moraine, and potentially stopped him from saving the world.

 

While we are playing the what if game, what if delaying just by a few more days would have caused Oliver to not be able to win while playing snakes and foxes, and ultimately doomed the rescue attempt.

 

Update: Verin's request not Perrin's.

 

In what way would he have been required to stay until the invasion occurred? We're talking about serious choke-point at the waygate. A couple of circles of thirteen to counter any channellers and smite the trollocs, plus a hundred crossbowmen with twice their number supplying them with reloads. That's pretty much a recipe for slaughter with precisely zero need for Mat's presence. If you absolutely, positively must have a ta'veren there's always Perrin. He's got a pretty decent track-record with battles.

 

Well, Verin would seem to disagree, as the letter told him that the Queen would need to marshall all of her forces on the spot.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

 

If he had opened the letter at the earliest opportunity(10 days after receiving it, IIRC), he could have spent a couple of hours getting to Elayne and warning her, then left Caemlyn 20 days ahead of schedule. No plot element was introduced in that time that aided him inside the tower of Ghenjei, so events would likely have transpired in much the same way. The only possible difference would have been the gholam. I'm not sure when he dealt with that in the timeline, but even that would not have affected his actions inside ToG. In this scenario, both Moiraine and Caemlyn are saved.

 

With that I disagree. By opening the letter, his decision would have bound him to follow Verin's request, which informing the queen, would have required him to stay until the invasion occurred, and then delayed him from rescuing Moraine, and potentially stopped him from saving the world.

 

While we are playing the what if game, what if delaying just by a few more days would have caused Oliver to not be able to win while playing snakes and foxes, and ultimately doomed the rescue attempt.

 

Update: Verin's request not Perrin's.

 

In what way would he have been required to stay until the invasion occurred? We're talking about serious choke-point at the waygate. A couple of circles of thirteen to counter any channellers and smite the trollocs, plus a hundred crossbowmen with twice their number supplying them with reloads. That's pretty much a recipe for slaughter with precisely zero need for Mat's presence. If you absolutely, positively must have a ta'veren there's always Perrin. He's got a pretty decent track-record with battles.

 

 

The problem with a bottleneck is that they're easy to force with numerical superiority, see Battle of Badajoz for example.

[Entreri]

It is Moraine. Moraine does say that she has something to tell Rand.

 

She is the woman dead and gone from Min's vision: "almost surely fail without a woman who is dead and gone", given the fact that Mat had to give up half the light of the world to save the world.

[Grandis]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

 

If he had opened the letter at the earliest opportunity(10 days after receiving it, IIRC), he could have spent a couple of hours getting to Elayne and warning her, then left Caemlyn 20 days ahead of schedule. No plot element was introduced in that time that aided him inside the tower of Ghenjei, so events would likely have transpired in much the same way. The only possible difference would have been the gholam. I'm not sure when he dealt with that in the timeline, but even that would not have affected his actions inside ToG. In this scenario, both Moiraine and Caemlyn are saved.

 

With that I disagree. By opening the letter, his decision would have bound him to follow Verin's request, which informing the queen, would have required him to stay until the invasion occurred, and then delayed him from rescuing Moraine, and potentially stopped him from saving the world.

 

While we are playing the what if game, what if delaying just by a few more days would have caused Oliver to not be able to win while playing snakes and foxes, and ultimately doomed the rescue attempt.

 

Update: Verin's request not Perrin's.

 

In what way would he have been required to stay until the invasion occurred? We're talking about serious choke-point at the waygate. A couple of circles of thirteen to counter any channellers and smite the trollocs, plus a hundred crossbowmen with twice their number supplying them with reloads. That's pretty much a recipe for slaughter with precisely zero need for Mat's presence. If you absolutely, positively must have a ta'veren there's always Perrin. He's got a pretty decent track-record with battles.

 

 

The problem with a bottleneck is that they're easy to force with numerical superiority, see Battle of Badajoz for example.

 

I think you and I have wildly differing definitions of the word "easy". The Battle of Badajoz is not an applicable example since the bottleneck in question was not an extra-dimensional portal that would not allow any kind of bombardment, and last time I checked the shadow did not have access to armored cars. Add the fact that they would have had three weeks to prepare the ground to make it as lethal as possible and it would simply not be possible to lose. Throw in a dozen or so dragons for good measure, and you've got yourself a party.

[David Selig]

It's a moot point anyway, since the Waygate would've been destroyed if the letter had been opened earlier. This was Verin's advice and we know from Loial that it's been done before by a full circle of 13 Aes Sedai. Given that Elayne has not only all those Kin women, but the opportunity to ask for help from Egwene and Rand and the channellers under their control, I don't think the Waygate would've been left standing for long.

[Mystraka]

He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin.

I still disagree with this line of reasoning. He didn't choose between the two of them because he could have helped both. His choice to help Moiraine might have been delayed by helping Verin, but not cancelled. Maybe not even that.

 

While this is a valid counterargument I believe that Mat would have been locked up in Caemlyn for quite some time fighting the dragonspawn. Verin described it as a vast army moving through the ways and the time were already short on their hands when they decided to leave Caemlyn. When they had managed to clear out the darkspawn the number of days for the big meeting were already numbered, I dont know if Tom and Mat could have justified putting Moiraine infront of the last battle, after all none of them knows of her importance, only Min does.

 

I will however admit that my idea of Mat's timeline around this time is very obscure, I dont know the amount of time they spent in ToG, but with Egwene's PoV of Perrin arrival and Perrin leaving shortly after Mat's departure we can assume that between the decision of Mat deciding to help Verin instead of Moiraine, too few days would remain to save Moiraine.

Had Mat opened the letter after ten days, he could have passed word to Elayne to destroy the Waygate that very day. Then, his part is done. That allows him to get to Moiraine ten days earlier. Of course, he didn't know that what the letter asked him to do might be done in an afternoon, but he didn't know it couldn't be either. Nor did he make any attempt to find out. Even if he had waited 30 days, he could have given word to Elayne, left the Band behind, and gone anyway, with no loss of time.

 

Do you honestly think, from all we have seen with Mat, that he would simply tell Elayne to disable the waygate and let it be? Mat would have felt like it was his duty to see the entire task through, and plan backup preparations in case Elayne was unable to disable the waygate. This planning would have push his departure date back. As we know Mat must play a part in the last battle, he would be unable to see to Moiraine. So yes, Verin <-> Moiraine

[Grandis]

He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin.

I still disagree with this line of reasoning. He didn't choose between the two of them because he could have helped both. His choice to help Moiraine might have been delayed by helping Verin, but not cancelled. Maybe not even that.

 

While this is a valid counterargument I believe that Mat would have been locked up in Caemlyn for quite some time fighting the dragonspawn. Verin described it as a vast army moving through the ways and the time were already short on their hands when they decided to leave Caemlyn. When they had managed to clear out the darkspawn the number of days for the big meeting were already numbered, I dont know if Tom and Mat could have justified putting Moiraine infront of the last battle, after all none of them knows of her importance, only Min does.

 

I will however admit that my idea of Mat's timeline around this time is very obscure, I dont know the amount of time they spent in ToG, but with Egwene's PoV of Perrin arrival and Perrin leaving shortly after Mat's departure we can assume that between the decision of Mat deciding to help Verin instead of Moiraine, too few days would remain to save Moiraine.

Had Mat opened the letter after ten days, he could have passed word to Elayne to destroy the Waygate that very day. Then, his part is done. That allows him to get to Moiraine ten days earlier. Of course, he didn't know that what the letter asked him to do might be done in an afternoon, but he didn't know it couldn't be either. Nor did he make any attempt to find out. Even if he had waited 30 days, he could have given word to Elayne, left the Band behind, and gone anyway, with no loss of time.

 

Do you honestly think, from all we have seen with Mat, that he would simply tell Elayne to disable the waygate and let it be? Mat would have felt like it was his duty to see the entire task through, and plan backup preparations in case Elayne was unable to disable the waygate. This planning would have push his departure date back. As we know Mat must play a part in the last battle, he would be unable to see to Moiraine. So yes, Verin <-> Moiraine

 

Supposing that David Selig's plan in the post above yours had failed. Mat would know damn well that this battle would fight itself. He could spend a day giving advice, but at the end of the day he'd only be kicking his heels for twenty days if he'd stayed. Whatever way the shadow has found to hold off Machin Shin likely relies on channellers, who will be at the front of the army opening the waygate. Let loose every crossbow and dragon the moment it opens and you've got a decent chance of taking them out before they even know what's happening. If the trollocs should somehow manage to force through a decent number they merely need to open a gateway in front of the waygate to separate them until any remaining channellers can deal with the gateway. If there are no more dreadlords then the trollocs are proper fucked since they can hold that gateway pretty much indefinetely. Thay might not want to, of course, since the myrddraal will certainly see the writing on the wall and retreat to another waygate to cause a giant clusterfuck elsewhere. Failure simply isn't an option. Mat would know that. He would also have Thom riding his ass to go ASAP.

[Mr Ares]

He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin.

I still disagree with this line of reasoning. He didn't choose between the two of them because he could have helped both. His choice to help Moiraine might have been delayed by helping Verin, but not cancelled. Maybe not even that.

 

While this is a valid counterargument I believe that Mat would have been locked up in Caemlyn for quite some time fighting the dragonspawn. Verin described it as a vast army moving through the ways and the time were already short on their hands when they decided to leave Caemlyn. When they had managed to clear out the darkspawn the number of days for the big meeting were already numbered, I dont know if Tom and Mat could have justified putting Moiraine infront of the last battle, after all none of them knows of her importance, only Min does.

 

I will however admit that my idea of Mat's timeline around this time is very obscure, I dont know the amount of time they spent in ToG, but with Egwene's PoV of Perrin arrival and Perrin leaving shortly after Mat's departure we can assume that between the decision of Mat deciding to help Verin instead of Moiraine, too few days would remain to save Moiraine.

Had Mat opened the letter after ten days, he could have passed word to Elayne to destroy the Waygate that very day. Then, his part is done. That allows him to get to Moiraine ten days earlier. Of course, he didn't know that what the letter asked him to do might be done in an afternoon, but he didn't know it couldn't be either. Nor did he make any attempt to find out. Even if he had waited 30 days, he could have given word to Elayne, left the Band behind, and gone anyway, with no loss of time.

Do you honestly think, from all we have seen with Mat, that he would simply tell Elayne to disable the waygate and let it be? Mat would have felt like it was his duty to see the entire task through, and plan backup preparations in case Elayne was unable to disable the waygate. This planning would have push his departure date back. As we know Mat must play a part in the last battle, he would be unable to see to Moiraine. So yes, Verin <-> Moiraine

I see no reason why it would force Mat to delay. If Elayne knows to destroy the Waygate, he could oversee that if he wanted, or he could leave it in the capable hands of Talmanes. Really, there's precious little he can do to help. He can't destroy the Waygate himself, and Talmanes is quite capable of guarding it if Elayne can't detroy it. So I really don't see any reason why Mat could not have followed Verin's instructions and saved Moiraine. Thus I really don't see how this fulfills the prophecy in question.

[rambling]

... Whatever way the shadow has found to hold off Machin Shin likely relies on channellers...

 

It occurs to me that they have no need to hold it off - isn't it following Mordeth about, up in the Blight? (they probably don't know that of course...)

[moratcorlm]

Why do you believe that? What similarity does the mist trailing near Padan Fain have to Machin Shin? Machin Shin and Mashadar are two quite different things, remember.

[rambling]

Why do you believe that? What similarity does the mist trailing near Padan Fain have to Machin Shin? Machin Shin and Mashadar are two quite different things, remember.

 

Oh, all right then... I keep mixing those two, some sort of a mental block I think (keep mixing ter'angreal and sa'angreal too)

[Mandro]

Think it's pretty clear it's Verin and Moiraine. Matt knew he only had so long to do what he needed to do for moiraine and still be ready for TG. He literally holds verins letter before leaving to save moiraine. The one hand or the other is pretty clear in that imagery.

[Grandis]

Think it's pretty clear it's Verin and Moiraine. Matt knew he only had so long to do what he needed to do for moiraine and still be ready for TG. He literally holds verins letter before leaving to save moiraine. The one hand or the other is pretty clear in that imagery.

 

The problem is, no matter which choice he makes, he still gets to save Moiraine. The prophesy could only reasonably be applied to that situation if choosing Moiraine was the wrong choice, which would be a sweet twist, since every either/or prophesy to date has resulted in them making the correct choice.

[Mandro]

Think it's pretty clear it's Verin and Moiraine. Matt knew he only had so long to do what he needed to do for moiraine and still be ready for TG. He literally holds verins letter before leaving to save moiraine. The one hand or the other is pretty clear in that imagery.

 

The problem is, no matter which choice he makes, he still gets to save Moiraine. The prophesy could only reasonably be applied to that situation if choosing Moiraine was the wrong choice, which would be a sweet twist, since every either/or prophesy to date has resulted in them making the correct choice.

 

This thread, because I saw that the comparison was obvious, might have made me think that Elayne needed to be brought down a tick. She's so focused on her selfish goals(even against the father of her children,the man she loves) that she will be stubborn, that she has to be saved by Matt, and his band AGAIN. The two AS were Verin and

[csharris]

The problem is, no matter which choice he makes, he still gets to save Moiraine.

 

I have to disagree with this. The best rebuttal I can offer is this, Although we know what the letter said Mat doesn't. Also step back and look at the letter from Mat's POV it's nothing more then something that will get him caught up in another WT scheme. Mat's irrational fear of AS probably led him to believe if he opened the letter he would be caught up in something that would prevent him from going to the ToG. I think it would also be fairly safe to assume that Mat knew that time was growing very short in regards to the Last Battle starting.

[Grandis]

The problem is, no matter which choice he makes, he still gets to save Moiraine.

 

I have to disagree with this. The best rebuttal I can offer is this, Although we know what the letter said Mat doesn't. Also step back and look at the letter from Mat's POV it's nothing more then something that will get him caught up in another WT scheme. Mat's irrational fear of AS probably led him to believe if he opened the letter he would be caught up in something that would prevent him from going to the ToG. I think it would also be fairly safe to assume that Mat knew that time was growing very short in regards to the Last Battle starting.

 

His ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. He had a choice to make. Choosing Moiraine led to her being rescued. Choosing Verin leads to Caemlyn and Moiraine being rescued. It does not matter that he did not know this, since the wheel does, and it's the wheel that supplies the prophesy.

 

/I'm not sure if my post is getting my point across

[csharris]

His ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. He had a choice to make. Choosing Moiraine led to her being rescued. Choosing Verin leads to Caemlyn and Moiraine being rescued. It does not matter that he did not know this, since the wheel does, and it's the wheel that supplies the prophesy.

 

/I'm not sure if my post is getting my point across

 

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the point you are trying to make is this. Had Mat chosen to open the letter from Verin he would have had time to both take care of the waygate in Caemlyn and go to the ToG to rescue Moiraine. If that is the point i will agree with that hands down. But i have to disagree that his ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. I can count on one hand how many Aes Sedai there are in the series Mat doesn't look sideways at. Moiraine, now Teslyn, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nyn, Elyane, and Egwene.

 

Would opening the letter have delayed him? From my POV no, from Mats POV yes.

[Grandis]

His ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. He had a choice to make. Choosing Moiraine led to her being rescued. Choosing Verin leads to Caemlyn and Moiraine being rescued. It does not matter that he did not know this, since the wheel does, and it's the wheel that supplies the prophesy.

 

/I'm not sure if my post is getting my point across

 

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the point you are trying to make is this. Had Mat chosen to open the letter from Verin he would have had time to both take care of the waygate in Caemlyn and go to the ToG to rescue Moiraine. If that is the point i will agree with that hands down. But i have to disagree that his ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. I can count on one hand how many Aes Sedai there are in the series Mat doesn't look sideways at. Moiraine, now Teslyn, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nyn, Elyane, and Egwene.

 

Would opening the letter have delayed him? From my POV no, from Mats POV yes.

 

This is the prophesy the wheel supplied to Egwene in the dream; Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. The only thing that matters is whether choosing Verin would actually exclude Moiraine, not whether Mat thinks it would. Since choosing Verin would have left him with plenty of time to rescue Moiraine, we must conclude that it wouldn't. Logically this means that either the dream did not refer to Verin/Moiraine, or Mat made the wrong choice.

[JamesL85]

His ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. He had a choice to make. Choosing Moiraine led to her being rescued. Choosing Verin leads to Caemlyn and Moiraine being rescued. It does not matter that he did not know this, since the wheel does, and it's the wheel that supplies the prophesy.

 

/I'm not sure if my post is getting my point across

 

Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe the point you are trying to make is this. Had Mat chosen to open the letter from Verin he would have had time to both take care of the waygate in Caemlyn and go to the ToG to rescue Moiraine. If that is the point i will agree with that hands down. But i have to disagree that his ignorance of the contents of the letter is irrelevant. I can count on one hand how many Aes Sedai there are in the series Mat doesn't look sideways at. Moiraine, now Teslyn, and to a somewhat lesser degree Nyn, Elyane, and Egwene.

 

Would opening the letter have delayed him? From my POV no, from Mats POV yes.

 

This is the prophesy the wheel supplied to Egwene in the dream; Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps. The only thing that matters is whether choosing Verin would actually exclude Moiraine, not whether Mat thinks it would. Since choosing Verin would have left him with plenty of time to rescue Moiraine, we must conclude that it wouldn't. Logically this means that either the dream did not refer to Verin/Moiraine, or Mat made the wrong choice.

 

But you now know what was in the letter. Mat didn't know (and still doesn't). If I remember right, if Mat opened the letter he had to do what it said, no matter what. He had to promise that. What if the letter said he had to travel to the Aiel Waste and sit on his butt until the Last Battle was over? He had to decide to save Moiraine or do exactly what Verin told him to do in the letter.

 

When I first read the Moiraine/Verin idea, I thought it was hogwash. I now think that it's very possible.

 

James

[David Selig]

I am with Grandis. If the letter was opened earlier, Mat still would've went to save Moiraine. So saving Moiraine and thus enabling her supposedly vital contribution to the Last battle wasn't "vast thing" which depended on Mat's choice. The fate of caemlyn did, but even though it's a grand city, I am not sure it qualifies as "something vast, the world perhaps".

[randsc]

My assumption is that Mat will choose between Rand and either Egwene or Elayne.

 

I also think Perrin will have to choose between Rand and Elayne, and that will settle the debates in other threads about whether he now marches to Elayne's drummer (he won't).

[herid]

I'm very surprised that this question seems so controversial. I try to stay away from topics where someone else in the thread said everything I could say but I thought I'd add my 2 cents here anyway. To me there is no doubt that the dream means Verin and Moiraine. Nothing I've seen in this thread changed my opinion. Mat clearly agonizes about whether or not to open Verin's letter. he even mentions that refraining from opening it was one of the hardest things he's done. To me that's a very good analogy with weighing on scales and I view the actual content of the letter as irrelevant. On top of this there are neat tie ins with other dreams and events which I think have been mentioned in this thread but let me summarize them.

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

IMO this ties in very well with

Half the light of the world. To save the world.

Also, the weighing on scales ties in with another dream of Egwene (DR Ch25):

Those about Mat had been even nastier. Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.

At least this one is not in doubt - Mat sacrificing his eye to save Moiraine. Presence of balance scales in both dreams is highly suggestive IMO.