Which two Aes Sedai will Mat choose between?

[randsc]

One of Egwene's dreams, still unfulfilled as far as I know:

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

We have certainly seen Mat interact with Aes Sedai, but not with anything huge at stake.

 

I think Mat will be forced to choose sides in a dispute between two Aes Sedai, either at Merilor or later at SG. Knowing Mat and Aes Sedai, I think we can assume that the Aes Sedai in question will be among those close to him, becuase otherwise he would not involve himself in their dispute, or if he was close to one and not the other, his propensity for personal loyalty would make the decision for him.

 

Aes Sedai with whom Mat has close ties: Egwene, Elayne, Joline, Teslyn, Moiraine, potentially Setele Anan.

 

I think Mat will have to choose, at Merilor and possibly after having brought the Seanchan on-board, between Moiraine's stategy (which I think will shadow that of Rand; break the seals) and that of Egwene (possibly supported by Elayne).

 

If he chooses wrong, good-bye Pattern.

 

Thoughts?

[moroten]

One of Egwene's dreams, still unfulfilled as far as I know:

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

We have certainly seen Mat interact with Aes Sedai, but not with anything huge at stake.

 

I think Mat will be forced to choose sides in a dispute between two Aes Sedai, either at Merilor or later at SG. Knowing Mat and Aes Sedai, I think we can assume that the Aes Sedai in question will be among those close to him, becuase otherwise he would not involve himself in their dispute, or if he was close to one and not the other, his propensity for personal loyalty would make the decision for him.

 

Aes Sedai with whom Mat has close ties: Egwene, Elayne, Joline, Teslyn, Moiraine, potentially Setele Anan.

 

I think Mat will have to choose, at Merilor and possibly after having brought the Seanchan on-board, between Moiraine's stategy (which I think will shadow that of Rand; break the seals) and that of Egwene (possibly supported by Elayne).

 

If he chooses wrong, good-bye Pattern.

 

Thoughts?

 

Think this has happened already. He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin. He chose Moiraine.

[chinnma]

One of Egwene's dreams, still unfulfilled as far as I know:

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

We have certainly seen Mat interact with Aes Sedai, but not with anything huge at stake.

 

I think Mat will be forced to choose sides in a dispute between two Aes Sedai, either at Merilor or later at SG. Knowing Mat and Aes Sedai, I think we can assume that the Aes Sedai in question will be among those close to him, becuase otherwise he would not involve himself in their dispute, or if he was close to one and not the other, his propensity for personal loyalty would make the decision for him.

 

Aes Sedai with whom Mat has close ties: Egwene, Elayne, Joline, Teslyn, Moiraine, potentially Setele Anan.

 

I think Mat will have to choose, at Merilor and possibly after having brought the Seanchan on-board, between Moiraine's stategy (which I think will shadow that of Rand; break the seals) and that of Egwene (possibly supported by Elayne).

 

If he chooses wrong, good-bye Pattern.

 

Thoughts?

 

Think this has happened already. He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin. He chose Moiraine.

 

That was my first reaction as well, however Mat "weighing" the two, indicates careful consideration. He was still ignorant of the contents of Verin's letter, so he was unaware that the choice was being made.

[randsc]

One of Egwene's dreams, still unfulfilled as far as I know:

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

We have certainly seen Mat interact with Aes Sedai, but not with anything huge at stake.

 

I think Mat will be forced to choose sides in a dispute between two Aes Sedai, either at Merilor or later at SG. Knowing Mat and Aes Sedai, I think we can assume that the Aes Sedai in question will be among those close to him, becuase otherwise he would not involve himself in their dispute, or if he was close to one and not the other, his propensity for personal loyalty would make the decision for him.

 

Aes Sedai with whom Mat has close ties: Egwene, Elayne, Joline, Teslyn, Moiraine, potentially Setele Anan.

 

I think Mat will have to choose, at Merilor and possibly after having brought the Seanchan on-board, between Moiraine's stategy (which I think will shadow that of Rand; break the seals) and that of Egwene (possibly supported by Elayne).

 

If he chooses wrong, good-bye Pattern.

 

Thoughts?

 

Think this has happened already. He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin. He chose Moiraine.

 

That was my first reaction as well, however Mat "weighing" the two, indicates careful consideration. He was still ignorant of the contents of Verin's letter, so he was unaware that the choice was being made.

 

I agree.

[randsc]

Tuon isn't an Aes Sedai. The dream didn't indicate Mat was choosing between two women who could channel. He was choosing between two Aes Sedai.

[ranjitb]

First, dreams aren't that literal.

And second, only *THE MOST AWESOME LINE* in ToM - <cutting Nynaeve off> "To be Aes Sedai is whatever you decide it is."

Just because the All-Mother assumes that only tower trained women are AS doesn't make it true.

[navahgar]

Could it be a decision between siding with Rand and with Egwene?

[randsc]

Certainly, Rand vs Egwene is one of the possibilities.

 

But Rand vs Tuon, or Egwene vs Tuon, are not possibilities.

[RedRaider]

One of Egwene's dreams, still unfulfilled as far as I know:

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

We have certainly seen Mat interact with Aes Sedai, but not with anything huge at stake.

 

I think Mat will be forced to choose sides in a dispute between two Aes Sedai, either at Merilor or later at SG. Knowing Mat and Aes Sedai, I think we can assume that the Aes Sedai in question will be among those close to him, becuase otherwise he would not involve himself in their dispute, or if he was close to one and not the other, his propensity for personal loyalty would make the decision for him.

 

Aes Sedai with whom Mat has close ties: Egwene, Elayne, Joline, Teslyn, Moiraine, potentially Setele Anan.

 

I think Mat will have to choose, at Merilor and possibly after having brought the Seanchan on-board, between Moiraine's stategy (which I think will shadow that of Rand; break the seals) and that of Egwene (possibly supported by Elayne).

 

If he chooses wrong, good-bye Pattern.

 

Thoughts?

 

Think this has happened already. He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin. He chose Moiraine.

 

That was my first reaction as well, however Mat "weighing" the two, indicates careful consideration. He was still ignorant of the contents of Verin's letter, so he was unaware that the choice was being made.

 

If these two are the Aes Sedai in question, then Mat did choose moraine over Verin. He held that letter and weighed opening it, considered being pulled into one of Verin's schemes, and choose to wait it out and go for Moraine. My question is did Verin place the waiting time on him so his army would be in an position to defend Camelyn or did she have him wait it out so he would be delayed and fighting to retake Camelyn instead of moving to Rand? I'm assuming she didn't know he was going for Moraine somehow. If he had opened the leetter, he would almost certainly been in a position to disable the gate so this invasion couldn't have taken place, at least from inside the city.

[Callern]

 

That was my first reaction as well, however Mat "weighing" the two, indicates careful consideration. He was still ignorant of the contents of Verin's letter, so he was unaware that the choice was being made.

 

Don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to be nitpicky (if that's the right word). I would say that whether or not Mat was unaware of the contents of the letter, it would still count as he considered, carefully, if he was going to open the letter or not.

On the other hand, you can argue if really had a choice about Moiraine?

[MattTaz]

To give up half the light of the world to save the world

Weighing Two AS. On his decision lay something vast, the world perhaps.

 

I think these two would have to be the same thing. Its Moraine and Verin for me - shrugs

[csharris]

I have to agree that more than likely the two AS he had to choose between were Moiraine and Verin. There are two quotes I feel support this.

 

1)Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

2)Min's viewing, "What good to tell him (Rand) he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

Taking those two quotes together its easy to see that the world did indeed rest upon the choice Mat made in ToM.

[Grandis]

I have to agree that more than likely the two AS he had to choose between were Moiraine and Verin. There are two quotes I feel support this.

 

1)Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

2)Min's viewing, "What good to tell him (Rand) he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?"

 

Taking those two quotes together its easy to see that the world did indeed rest upon the choice Mat made in ToM.

 

If rescuing Moiraine was the "something vast, the world, perhaps." then the fact of the matter is that opening Verin's letter would not have prevented him in any way from doing so. Thus, the only way Egwene's dream could be meaningful is if Mat made the wrong choice by not choosing Verin. Assuming that the dream refers to Verin and Moiraine, of course.

[Mr Ares]

He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin.

I still disagree with this line of reasoning. He didn't choose between the two of them because he could have helped both. His choice to help Moiraine might have been delayed by helping Verin, but not cancelled. Maybe not even that.

[asha man]

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

He's weighing them, not measuring them against one another. When you weigh things on an old fashioned scale you put the thing on one side, some weights on the other.

 

I took this one to mean him deciding to save Teslyn and Joline from the Seanchan. So far it hasn't meant much, but I believe it will become important when the time comes to convince the Seanchan to release the demane. Without the two Aes Sedai taking the escaped sul'dam under their wings and teaching them, the following interaction wouldn't have happened:

 

"We will go," Bethamin said firmly. She was determined to learn, it seemed.

"Yes," Seta said, "though I sometimes think it might be better to simply let us die, as opposed to . . . Well, what we are, what we represent, means that we are a danger to the Empire."

Mat nodded. "Tuon is a sul'dam" he said.

The two women looked down.

"Go with the Aes Sedai," Mat said. " I'll give you your own horses, so you don't have to rely on them. Learn to channel. That'll be more use than dying. Maybe someday you two can convince Tuon of the truth. Help me find a way to fix this without causing the Empire to collapse."

The two women looked to him, more firm and confident, suddenly.

"Yes, Highness," Bethamin said. "It is a good purpose for us to have. Thank you, Highness."

Seta actually got tears in her eyes! Light, what did they think he had just promised them?

 

It is true that Mat took three Aes Sedai with him when he left, but the promises that he made were to Joline and Teslyn. Teslyn throws Edesina into the mix after Mat has already agreed to save her:

 

She nodded as though he had promised an escape by nightfall. “There do be another sister held prisoner here in the Palace. Edesina Azzedin. She must come with us.”

[moroten]

He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin.

I still disagree with this line of reasoning. He didn't choose between the two of them because he could have helped both. His choice to help Moiraine might have been delayed by helping Verin, but not cancelled. Maybe not even that.

 

While this is a valid counterargument I believe that Mat would have been locked up in Caemlyn for quite some time fighting the dragonspawn. Verin described it as a vast army moving through the ways and the time were already short on their hands when they decided to leave Caemlyn. When they had managed to clear out the darkspawn the number of days for the big meeting were already numbered, I dont know if Tom and Mat could have justified putting Moiraine infront of the last battle, after all none of them knows of her importance, only Min does.

 

I will however admit that my idea of Mat's timeline around this time is very obscure, I dont know the amount of time they spent in ToG, but with Egwene's PoV of Perrin arrival and Perrin leaving shortly after Mat's departure we can assume that between the decision of Mat deciding to help Verin instead of Moiraine, too few days would remain to save Moiraine.

[bjsm]

One of Egwene's dreams, still unfulfilled as far as I know:

 

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

We have certainly seen Mat interact with Aes Sedai, but not with anything huge at stake.

 

I think Mat will be forced to choose sides in a dispute between two Aes Sedai, either at Merilor or later at SG. Knowing Mat and Aes Sedai, I think we can assume that the Aes Sedai in question will be among those close to him, becuase otherwise he would not involve himself in their dispute, or if he was close to one and not the other, his propensity for personal loyalty would make the decision for him.

 

Aes Sedai with whom Mat has close ties: Egwene, Elayne, Joline, Teslyn, Moiraine, potentially Setele Anan.

 

I think Mat will have to choose, at Merilor and possibly after having brought the Seanchan on-board, between Moiraine's stategy (which I think will shadow that of Rand; break the seals) and that of Egwene (possibly supported by Elayne).

 

If he chooses wrong, good-bye Pattern.

 

Thoughts?

 

Think this has happened already. He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin. He chose Moiraine.

 

That was my first reaction as well, however Mat "weighing" the two, indicates careful consideration. He was still ignorant of the contents of Verin's letter, so he was unaware that the choice was being made.

 

If these two are the Aes Sedai in question, then Mat did choose moraine over Verin. He held that letter and weighed opening it, considered being pulled into one of Verin's schemes, and choose to wait it out and go for Moraine. My question is did Verin place the waiting time on him so his army would be in an position to defend Camelyn or did she have him wait it out so he would be delayed and fighting to retake Camelyn instead of moving to Rand? I'm assuming she didn't know he was going for Moraine somehow. If he had opened the leetter, he would almost certainly been in a position to disable the gate so this invasion couldn't have taken place, at least from inside the city.

 

Verin made Mat wait so that she would already be dead by the time he opened the letter. Otherwise she would have been betraying her Oath to the Shadow.

[Hopefire]

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

He's weighing them, not measuring them against one another. When you weigh things on an old fashioned scale you put the thing on one side, some weights on the other.

 

I took this one to mean him deciding to save Teslyn and Joline from the Seanchan. So far it hasn't meant much, but I believe it will become important when the time comes to convince the Seanchan to release the demane. Without the two Aes Sedai taking the escaped sul'dam under their wings and teaching them, the following interaction wouldn't have happened:

 

"We will go," Bethamin said firmly. She was determined to learn, it seemed.

"Yes," Seta said, "though I sometimes think it might be better to simply let us die, as opposed to . . . Well, what we are, what we represent, means that we are a danger to the Empire."

Mat nodded. "Tuon is a sul'dam" he said.

The two women looked down.

"Go with the Aes Sedai," Mat said. " I'll give you your own horses, so you don't have to rely on them. Learn to channel. That'll be more use than dying. Maybe someday you two can convince Tuon of the truth. Help me find a way to fix this without causing the Empire to collapse."

The two women looked to him, more firm and confident, suddenly.

"Yes, Highness," Bethamin said. "It is a good purpose for us to have. Thank you, Highness."

Seta actually got tears in her eyes! Light, what did they think he had just promised them?

 

It is true that Mat took three Aes Sedai with him when he left, but the promises that he made were to Joline and Teslyn. Teslyn throws Edesina into the mix after Mat has already agreed to save her:

 

She nodded as though he had promised an escape by nightfall. “There do be another sister held prisoner here in the Palace. Edesina Azzedin. She must come with us.”

 

Wow. Didn't see that.

 

I'm not completely convinced that the Moiraine/Verin decision isn't the case of the Aes Sedai being weighed, but now that you've highlighted that passage for me, wow. While some decisions in the series have had far more immediate impact, the long term social impact of Mat's choice may have greater bearing on the shape of the world after the Last Battle than any other decision made by any other character.

 

For want of a nail...

[Mr Ares]

He had to choose between Moiraine and Verin.

I still disagree with this line of reasoning. He didn't choose between the two of them because he could have helped both. His choice to help Moiraine might have been delayed by helping Verin, but not cancelled. Maybe not even that.

 

While this is a valid counterargument I believe that Mat would have been locked up in Caemlyn for quite some time fighting the dragonspawn. Verin described it as a vast army moving through the ways and the time were already short on their hands when they decided to leave Caemlyn. When they had managed to clear out the darkspawn the number of days for the big meeting were already numbered, I dont know if Tom and Mat could have justified putting Moiraine infront of the last battle, after all none of them knows of her importance, only Min does.

 

I will however admit that my idea of Mat's timeline around this time is very obscure, I dont know the amount of time they spent in ToG, but with Egwene's PoV of Perrin arrival and Perrin leaving shortly after Mat's departure we can assume that between the decision of Mat deciding to help Verin instead of Moiraine, too few days would remain to save Moiraine.

Had Mat opened the letter after ten days, he could have passed word to Elayne to destroy the Waygate that very day. Then, his part is done. That allows him to get to Moiraine ten days earlier. Of course, he didn't know that what the letter asked him to do might be done in an afternoon, but he didn't know it couldn't be either. Nor did he make any attempt to find out. Even if he had waited 30 days, he could have given word to Elayne, left the Band behind, and gone anyway, with no loss of time.

[Monte]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

[randsc]

Verin's letter could just as easily have required Mat to spend months traveling the World, or sailing to Seanchan, or some such. Not opening the letter was the only way to be sure he could keep his promises to Thom.

[spoke]

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

What other quote is there, that is similar to this?

 

What did the Finn's say to Mat?

 

give up half the light of the world to save the world.

 

This pretty much concludes that the weighing between Moraine and Verin was what the dream was about.

[asha man]

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

 

What other quote is there, that is similar to this?

 

What did the Finn's say to Mat?

 

give up half the light of the world to save the world.

 

This pretty much concludes that the weighing between Moraine and Verin was what the dream was about.

 

It's suggestive, and I'm at least half convinced, but if he was writing a resume it would be peppered with the phrase "saved the world".

[Grandis]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

 

If he had opened the letter at the earliest opportunity(10 days after receiving it, IIRC), he could have spent a couple of hours getting to Elayne and warning her, then left Caemlyn 20 days ahead of schedule. No plot element was introduced in that time that aided him inside the tower of Ghenjei, so events would likely have transpired in much the same way. The only possible difference would have been the gholam. I'm not sure when he dealt with that in the timeline, but even that would not have affected his actions inside ToG. In this scenario, both Moiraine and Caemlyn are saved.

[spoke]

I agree that Verin and Moiraine were the two on the balance scale. Mat never intended to open that letter, because he knew that doing so could cost him in his plan to go to the tower and rescue Moiraine. This one is fulfilled, and if you need further proof that it was a decision of importance, remember that as of right now in the storyline, Caemlyn is burning with thousands of trollocs inside the walls. Had he chose Verin, Caemlyn would be safe, but the world would be doomed, this implies.

 

It would take a lot more than the theories produced so far in this thread to convince me that this isn't the case.

 

If he had opened the letter at the earliest opportunity(10 days after receiving it, IIRC), he could have spent a couple of hours getting to Elayne and warning her, then left Caemlyn 20 days ahead of schedule. No plot element was introduced in that time that aided him inside the tower of Ghenjei, so events would likely have transpired in much the same way. The only possible difference would have been the gholam. I'm not sure when he dealt with that in the timeline, but even that would not have affected his actions inside ToG. In this scenario, both Moiraine and Caemlyn are saved.

 

With that I disagree. By opening the letter, his decision would have bound him to follow Verin's request, which informing the queen, would have required him to stay until the invasion occurred, and then delayed him from rescuing Moraine, and potentially stopped him from saving the world.

 

While we are playing the what if game, what if delaying just by a few more days would have caused Oliver to not be able to win while playing snakes and foxes, and ultimately doomed the rescue attempt.

 

Update: Verin's request not Perrin's.