The conversation between Perrin/Faile/Elayne/Morgase/Alliandre - Re: The 2Riv ''Rebellion'' in Andor

[The Fisher King]

I think I liked it so much because it showed a classic situation where BOTH sides have valid points and also because it reminded me why I have always appreciated what a polarizing character Elayne is: Stubborn, snooty, foolish...but charming, sincere, kind and funny.

 

I MAY well be reading too much into it, but I vaguely got the impression that Elayne was set to agree with Perrin and Faile all along but just needed to hear their reasons to make sure that their reasons really were sincere and valid. In other words, a queen doing her due diligence.

 

The queen (Elayne Trakand) was right and doing exactly as she SHOULD have done. You can't just let a chunk of your realm up and secede, no matter how noble their reasons. Bad, BAD precedent.

 

Faile and Perrin were right too. I don't give a fig that The 2RIV ''hasn't seen an Andoran tax collector in two generations.'' ... I am almost as weary of hearing that, actually, as Rand is of hearing that ''the Car' acarn is not a wetlander king.''

 

Far more important is the absence of support for The Two Rivers that Andor showed for so long and the way the farmers and sheperds and tobac growers there stood for themselves against the trollocs and came to know and support Perrin as their leader.

 

''Leader'' - not ''king.'' This is crucial as well, The Two Rivers doesn't want to supplant the Andoran Ruling Family, only to be allowed to see to themselves. If ANYTHING more were desired by the 2Rivs folks, I'd be the first to agree that Elayne should have the troops marching their way before the sun set.

 

I also enjoyed Morgase and Alliandre both as the ''seasoned voices of reason'' here. ... I also *GASP* enjoyed Faile here (Brandon has done WONDERS with her) and was pleased when Perrin said ''Its not going to happen'' on response to the suggestion by Elayne that things ''just go back to how they were before.''

 

I thought it out of character - but only momentarily. Perrin may hate banners and crowns of his own, but he has never been the sort to calmly lay down (or is it ''lie'' down?) and accept the subjugation of his people.

 

All in all, this was a scene I really enjoyed and thought was a necessary conversation among those involved and I am glad we got to see it onscreen.

 

 

- Thoughts?

 

 

- Fish

[Feral]

While I liked the chapter in general (especially Faile), Elayne annoyed me. For starters it makes me want to scream every time she refers to herself as "the Crown", but also her stupid blunt manner when she said, "Tell me why I shouldn't have you executed" or something similar. Er because the Last Battle is coming, he has an army (including Ashaman) who wouldn't let it happen, he's taveren blah blah blah? Such an attitude might have worked to scare Perrin in EotW, but now it's just laughable. She must have known right from the start that she would have to give into Perrin's requests, at least until after the LB so it was all just a childish act to try to intimidate.

[Nooska]

While I liked the chapter in general (especially Faile), Elayne annoyed me. For starters it makes me want to scream every time she refers to herself as "the Crown

That must mean you don't have a grasp of Elaynes position.

Elayne is in the meeting in more than 1 capacity;

1) As elayne, the secret girlfriend of TDR and someone who knows Perrin peripherally

2) As the current Queen of Andor

3) by extension of 2, as a representitve of all former and future rulers of Andor

4) As High Seat of house Trakand.

 

1 and 4 lends the freindly face, as she has interest from both in being on good terms with Perrin & Faile and their not insignificant army.

2 brings the "tell me why I shouldn't just execute you" - the judicial part

3 brings ion the reference to "the crown" - as what she agrees to has to be more than her own (as 1 and 4) interest, and more than current politics.

 

It is in the capacity of 4 that elayne can make T2R Rand's seat and let it be exempt from taxes, as this treaty will be the legal grounds that prevent the next ruler from reversing it - t2r can rise up against such a demand without being in rebellion.

 

I quite enjoyed that scene as well, lots of strong women used to being in charge and Perrin being the unpredictable one by being so honest. Alliandre was an awesome addition too, as Perrin by being her liegelord actually has valid claim to a title being teh superior of a monarch.

[KefkaPalazzo]

I agree with Fish. I think that she never really intended to hang them. although she likely would have if she didn't like the answer. The way she presented herself was just an act to get a completely honest answer out of Perrin & co. They reacted without thinking, and gave the worst presentation of their motives. If Elayne found she could trust Perrin at his absolute most threatening, she can trust him implicitly any time at all.

[The Fisher King]

I agree with Fish. I think that she never really intended to hang them. although she likely would have if she didn't like the answer. The way she presented herself was just an act to get a completely honest answer out of Perrin & co. They reacted without thinking, and gave the worst presentation of their motives. If Elayne found she could trust Perrin at his absolute most threatening, she can trust him implicitly any time at all.

 

 

Great point.

 

 

- Fish

[AvroChris]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

[Guest xman]

I was kind of hoping that when Elayne charged Perrin with raising the banner of Manetheren and a rebellion, he would have responded by pointing out that she could thank the White Tower for that particular problem, which he too often found vexing until he agreed to to use it to disguise his purpose in Ghealdan.

 

After all, the Two Rivers folk first became aware of their history, thanks to Moraine in EOFTW, and then they appeared to have been manipulated to raise the Manetheren flag by either Alanna or more likely Verin or both in TSR.

 

He could have turned things upside down on her by telling her she could thank her fellow sister Aes Sedai for their role in the raising of the Manetheren banner, which now appeared to be a rebellion to her and let her chew on that, and then pressed his case.

[The Fisher King]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

 

- Fish

[AvroChris]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

 

- Fish

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

[The Fisher King]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

 

- Fish

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

 

Thanks for explaining what you meant a bit more. I understand better now. I guess I just looked at it as Elayne making PERRIN Lord of the Two Rivers, but still subject to The Crown - as a Steward - who would fight for the Dragon Reborn in TG...I think its a matter of semantics. I totally see what you mean, though.

 

 

- Fish

[Mr Ares]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

A fair point, but a terrible example - being sworn to Elayne would bring with it certain duties and responsibilities as a lord, but he has duties and responsibilities outside of the TR that have nothing to do with Andor (and thus are not subject to the Andoran crown) - for example, him being King of Illian. Elayne could order him around as a vassal on Andoran matters, but he would be an equal on matters of international relations between their respective countries. But the essential point you made is, as a said, a fair one. Elayne cannot confer new duties and responsibilities on Rand without his consent. However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

[Suttree]

However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

I've been confused about this the last couple days. I tend to agree with your interpretation, some other posters have been fairly vehemently stating feudalism doesn't work like this and Perrin in fact never swore to Elayne and a Steward isn't sworn to a Queen but only the Lord above them(in this case Rand).

 

No, I'm suggesting that Perrin didn't swear to Elayne. Because he didn't.

 

He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne.

 

As to how a Steward isn't sworn to the Queen, I don't know how else to explain it...a steward isn't sworn to the Queen. A steward of a lord is sworn to that lord, not that lord's queen. Again, this is just how feudalism works.

 

This sort of indirect obligation is how feudalism works. I'm a peasant, who owes fealty to my local lord. That lord owes fealty to a higher, and he to a higher.

 

What do you think about Randsc's interpretation? I thought the whole reason they worded it the way they did was to get around the special status of the TR's and it was expected that Rand would never actually take his seat and fulfill his lordly duties. That in fact Perrin is sworn to the Queen and a High Lord in all but name.

[The Fisher King]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

A fair point, but a terrible example - being sworn to Elayne would bring with it certain duties and responsibilities as a lord, but he has duties and responsibilities outside of the TR that have nothing to do with Andor (and thus are not subject to the Andoran crown) - for example, him being King of Illian. Elayne could order him around as a vassal on Andoran matters, but he would be an equal on matters of international relations between their respective countries. But the essential point you made is, as a said, a fair one. Elayne cannot confer new duties and responsibilities on Rand without his consent. However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

 

Oh man! I was just coming to make this exact point and I see that Mr Sir has beaten me the punch! Hopefully this will be the last time THAT happens. But; yeah: The King of Illian being beholden to the Queen of Andor??? ... Errr...Awkward much, lol. And I'm sure the Illianer citizens would be SO comfortable with their ruler being beholden to a a foreign nation's sovereign.

 

 

 

- Fish

[Mr Ares]

However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

I've been confused about this the last couple days. I tend to agree with your interpretation, some other posters have been fairly vehemently stating feudalism doesn't work like this and Perrin in fact never swore to Elayne and a Steward isn't sworn to a Queen but only the Lord above them(in this case Rand).

 

No, I'm suggesting that Perrin didn't swear to Elayne. Because he didn't.

 

He would have to muster the Two Rivers if the Dragon called, not Elayne.

 

As to how a Steward isn't sworn to the Queen, I don't know how else to explain it...a steward isn't sworn to the Queen. A steward of a lord is sworn to that lord, not that lord's queen. Again, this is just how feudalism works.

 

This sort of indirect obligation is how feudalism works. I'm a peasant, who owes fealty to my local lord. That lord owes fealty to a higher, and he to a higher.

 

What do you think about Randsc's interpretation? I thought the whole reason they worded it the way they did was to get around the special status of the TR's and it was expected that Rand would never actually take his seat and fulfill his lordly duties. That in fact Perrin is sworn to the Queen and a High Lord in all but name.

In ordinary circumstances, it would indeed be a matter of Steward sworn to Lord, who is sworn to Queen, but these are not normal circumstances. Rand's status as Lord is, at the moment, intended purely as a fiction (he has TG to worry about, for one thing). I think (on most matters, actually) that randsc is wrong. Perrin is sworn to Elayne.

[Nygma7]

I don't think Elayne was intending to make Rand an Andoran lord, and thus one of her vassals. Her main intent was to find some reason to elevate the Two Rivers to account for Perrin's High Lordship and to do that she decided to give TTR to the Dragon Reborn as his seat.

 

Two things with this, I think. One, this doesn't make Rand an Andoran lord subject to Elayne. It just means that when THE DRAGON REBORN - *trumpets sounding* - visits Andor, he has his very own province to stay in. Second, it doesn't need his approval or even knowledge to finalize it.

 

Compare it to providing and setting up a beautiful mansion exclusively for a foreign Emperor to stay in when he visits. It doesn't need his approval to do such a thing, though he may not want to stay there when he sees it. Nor does it need his approval to appoint a major domo to see that it's all kept up, though he might decide that he wants his own people there later.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

 

- Fish

 

 

Rand is already King of Illian and rules many other territories which imply him to more fittingly be an Emperor. He cannot swear to a mere Queen of Andor. Which is why making him a Lord of the Territory presents it's own difficulties since you cannot exactly demand oaths of obedience from him, because Rand outranks Elayne (until she aquires Cairhien I suppose), and even then if Rand were to swear to the regent of Andor. Well damn, you'd have uprisings from every noble in every territory aligned with the Dragon. From Illian to Tear. Nobody would stand for such a usurpation of power.

 

The entire issue is that Elayne cannot acquire loyalty oaths from Rand. So Rand is Lord of Two Rivers. Great. Perrin is the Steward of Two Rivers. Which means that Perrin "for the moment," at least until the marriage between Rand/Elayne is completed, is loyal only to Rand. Elayne cannot legally tax, demand or require anything from him if it is not given of it's own free accord. When Elayne and Rand marry it is merged into a collective rule along the lines of Ferdinand of Aragon and Isabella of Castille.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

It does if what those Queens are doing involves swearing him to their Throne!

He should have been involved in the discussion because the whole premise of it was that he would be Lord of the Two Rivers but still subservient to the Throne, and that Perrin was to be sworn to him. If Rand wasn't involved and doesn't even know about the agreement he can't be sworn to the Throne, and so the situations people have been talking about can't really take place. You could probably swear Perrin to the throne and name him Steward until the whole business is formalised, but we saw no indication that that has happened - he said outright he was going to follow Rand at the FoM, even if Elayne disagreed.

Imagine if Elayne turned up to the Fields of Merillor and said "actually, you can't break the seals because you're sworn to me because I said so to your friend". She'd be laughed off the throne!

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the arrangement is entirely dependent on Rand agreeing with it, and they haven't even mentioned it to him yet.

A fair point, but a terrible example - being sworn to Elayne would bring with it certain duties and responsibilities as a lord, but he has duties and responsibilities outside of the TR that have nothing to do with Andor (and thus are not subject to the Andoran crown) - for example, him being King of Illian. Elayne could order him around as a vassal on Andoran matters, but he would be an equal on matters of international relations between their respective countries. But the essential point you made is, as a said, a fair one. Elayne cannot confer new duties and responsibilities on Rand without his consent. However, I would contend that the duties conferred upon him are in name only - unless and until he decides to take up the duties, Perrin functions as Lord in all but name. If Rand never took up his duties, he would thus never have to swear, and him being a lord subject to the Andoran crown would be, in effect, a lordship on paper only with all parties understanding that the relationship between Queen and High Lord's Steward should function as if Rand didn't exist. If and when he decides to take up his duties there, then his swearing will become a necessity, not before.

 

This is not how liegeship or vassal relationships have worked. Ever. Try studying European history from, oh well lets say 1100-1850. What you're proposing is complete nonsense and far from reality. Rand is King of Illian first and thus the lordship of Two Rivers falls to his privvy. Which means if "theoretically" Elayne would call forth the nobles for war and Rand disagrees. He simply does not send men from Two Rivers even if it is in Andor, since he is the King of Illian, which would not be treason (I can list a good dozen historical examples following the exact same guidelines where not a soul considered it treason). However if Rand musters his men in Illian he can draft and send men from Two Rivers to fight for him. It's his lordship.

 

No one ever said it was a good system. Why do you think there were so many intrigues, wars and whatnot in European history? Nobles intermarrying and Emperors or Kings also being Dukes or Counts in other nations simply caused tension to hell and back. Why do you think there were so many Hanoverians and Hessians in the American Revolution which was fought between the colonies and Great Britain? It could do with the fact that the King of Britain was also a German prince with extensive German ancestry (see Electress Sophia, Hanoverian Question and the Act of Settlement to detail you in on that one).

[jemron]

My favorite part about this? It took only one chapter, but if RJ had been writing it, it would've spanned over 2 books.

[Muad Cheade]

This is not how liegeship or vassal relationships have worked. Ever. Try studying European history from, oh well lets say 1100-1850. What you're proposing is complete nonsense and far from reality. Rand is King of Illian first and thus the lordship of Two Rivers falls to his privvy. Which means if "theoretically" Elayne would call forth the nobles for war and Rand disagrees. He simply does not send men from Two Rivers even if it is in Andor, since he is the King of Illian, which would not be treason (I can list a good dozen historical examples following the exact same guidelines where not a soul considered it treason). However if Rand musters his men in Illian he can draft and send men from Two Rivers to fight for him. It's his lordship.

 

No one ever said it was a good system. Why do you think there were so many intrigues, wars and whatnot in European history? Nobles intermarrying and Emperors or Kings also being Dukes or Counts in other nations simply caused tension to hell and back. Why do you think there were so many Hanoverians and Hessians in the American Revolution which was fought between the colonies and Great Britain? It could do with the fact that the King of Britain was also a German prince with extensive German ancestry (see Electress Sophia, Hanoverian Question and the Act of Settlement to detail you in on that one).

So because Rand is King of Illian, the land he holds automatically in another nation secedes from that nation? Yeah. That's logical. That would make Tear a fief of his right?

 

No. You can list a dozen good examples but they do not fit the context of this situation. The Holy Roman Empire is very much different from that of the Wheel of Time.

 

 

My favorite part about this? It took only one chapter, but if RJ had been writing it, it would've spanned over 2 books.

How do you know he didn't write it?

[Nygma7]

Seems like this would be a good question for BS since there seems to be so much confusion about it.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

[AvroChris]

I agree that it's really a point of semantics (and a poor example, aye) but Rand being High Lord with Perrin as Steward only really works if he agrees to it - he might say it's a daft idea, and then they'll have to come up with something else. The only difference it really makes is that none of it will be relevant until the Last Battle is over and done with - hell, Perrin might not even be alive by that point, or he might be King of Saldae, which will make for an interesting discussion between the two

[The Fisher King]

Seems like this would be a good question for BS since there seems to be so much confusion about it.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

 

 

Yes. He is. Elayne confirms this when she looks at Perrin and says ''The OTHER *High Lords* won't like this.''

 

 

- Fish

[Nooska]

Seems like this would be a good question for BS since there seems to be so much confusion about it.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

 

 

Yes. He is. Elayne confirms this when she looks at Perrin and says ''The OTHER *High Lords* won't like this.''

 

 

- Fish

That quote is inaccurate, as Andor never had any high lords before. And, I believe the quote just precedes the workaround that Perrin isn't made lord, but steward under Rand.

[The Fisher King]

Seems like this would be a good question for BS since there seems to be so much confusion about it.

 

"Is Perrin now an Andoran High Lord or isn't he?"

 

 

Yes. He is. Elayne confirms this when she looks at Perrin and says ''The OTHER *High Lords* won't like this.''

 

 

- Fish

That quote is inaccurate, as Andor never had any high lords before. And, I believe the quote just precedes the workaround that Perrin isn't made lord, but steward under Rand.

 

 

Youre right. My bad. - On the subject of High Lords, I was thinking of Tear.

 

 

- Fish

[RahulSingh]

I've mentioned this a few times but I guess I should confirm, did they actually make a binding (ie oathbound) agreement? I can't see how they could have with Rand not being there, you can't swear someone to a throne when they don't even know about it.

Only my book's a good few miles away at this point.

 

I think it was implied that all the official ''I Dotting'' was done offscreen. I'm not sure why Rand would be needed to make anything official. He's not a King or a member of any ruling house in Andor, Tear or Cairhein, He IS the King of Illian and wears the Laurel Crown but thats irrelevant to this situation. Obviously hes the Dragon Reborn, but again, that doesn't affect what the kings and queens of the world (except, again, Illian, where he wears the Crown of Swords) do.

 

 

- Fish

 

Though nobody knows this but Rand is the son of Tigrane which does make him royal blood does'nt it? I suppose he would be part of the royal family now like Galad right?

 

If this becomes common knowledge how would it effect this? would rand be entitled to some estates in andor being son of the former queen?

 

Other than that though Rand already treats 2R as his own backyard sending Tam to 2R for prep of TG. Its all so complicated and if the chips dont fall in place together it will all fall apart...