Perrin's new station in Andor

[Fel]

Well, given you admit this is a general trend rather than an absolute rule, you're going to have to provide evidence of Rand having conquered the whole country, not just the capital and some of the surrounding area. France surrendered, as you say, and so did Germany. When did Andor surrender? Which Great Houses swore allegiance to Rand?

How, exactly, would he conquer the whole country in your vision? I can't quite understand what you think conquering the "whole country" means? Go into every little village and "conquer" them? There were no standing armies rallied against him that he could "conquer". He controlled the seat of government and there was no active rebellion, so it's hard to understand what else would have had to have been accomplished to have been seen as conquering the country.

 

Arguably, he controlled Andor better than he did either Cairhein or Tear (both of which also just had the capital city conquered, but both of which had an active rebellion for a long time). And, he never conquered "the whole country" or Illian either, just the city. Maybe Rand didn't control any country at all?

[Muad Cheade]

Ares is right on that regard (I always hate admitting that).

 

Rand conquered Tear, Cairhien and Illian for the simple fact that the Lords and Ladies swore to him and more or less accepted him as overlord/king. It was clear from the outset that the Andorans would not do that.

 

The fact that there were no current fielded armies does not relate to his authority over a nation. The three nation's were Rand's despite there being opposing forces. The opposite goes for Andor.

[David Selig]

Rand didn't even try to establish any control of Caemlyn and the several miles around it. He certainly could have done it, but he didn't. He didn't ask the Andoran nobles to swear to him (unlike in Cairhien, for example), he wasn't ordering them anything, they were free to do whatever they wanted apart from trying to take over Caemlyn. Dyelin and another three High Seats got invited by him to come meet him, they came with a 5 days delay. Rand made a point to note that the Palace was of their Queens, not his own and told him they will gather armies against him if he's still ruling Caemlyn in few months time, and he still let them go in peace.

[Fel]

Rand kept control of Camelyn with his standing army of people. They were patrolling the streets and keeping the peace (Elayne notes that their leaving made the streets unsafe).

 

He did not ask people to swear to him because he was planning on giving the country to his girlfriend and he would only allow her to take it from him. We're getting back into the original argument (over him giving the throne away) though and I think that is somewhat fruitless at this stage.

 

Suffice it to say that I think he had a much better control of Camelyn/Andor than of pre-Darlin-Tear (where there was an open rebellion and many plots to get rid of him) or cairhein (where one of the nobles worked with the Aes Sedai that kidnapped him so she could take over when he "left"). In all places, he controlled it because no one else could take it from him - his army was the most feared. Illian was different in that the council willingly offered him the crown (admittedly, I was being difficult by adding Illian to my list before).

 

Would you say that the Seanchan did not really control their lands since many of the nobles were actively waging war against them? I would say that make no sense, but the Seanchan are dealing with actual rebellion vs a hypothetical one in Andor. (BTW, these andoran nobles who were ready to "rise up" didn't seem to raise much of a fuss when Gaebril seemingly had Morgase killed off and took over the throne, so I don't give their threats all that much credence).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Lisbon is also a silly example. They, the Portuguese, couldn't legally surrender since they were in the British sphere of influence with Britain being the Great Power serving as the war leader for their faction. It's the same reason why in Napoleon's drive East many German States despite being entirely occupied and overrun could not surrender until Prussia their sphere leader terminated the war. It has as good as no correlation to the situation at hand.

That doesn't exactly make sense. Portugal could have surrendered regardless. By your reasoning, no nation during the Napoleonic Era should have sued for peace as the British Empire still always fought (they were the dominant political and economic power). There are also the examples of the rulers of Saxony and Bavaria who broke with Prussia and Austria to become kings under Napoleon. Also, the Electorate of Hanover (which was in a personal union with the United Kingdom) was conquered and then made into the Kingdom of Westphalia ruled by Napoleon's brother. This was accepted by the nobility. The army was pretty much the only group that actually did something and they just retreated to England.

 

Or are you implying that Andor is in fact a client state to a greater power under whose sphere of influence it resides? I was always under the impression that Andor was a powerful autonomous nation serving as a Great Power in terms of diplomatic status.

I'm not sure how you got that from me saying "Rand taking Caemlyn did not mean he had Andor, let alone the nation's allegiance. If he had remained long enough, a rebellion would have occurred as it did in Tear and Cairhien. And yes, it was necessary that Elayne win the throne by her own. Rand saying he was "giving the throne to her didn't help.""

 

 

I agree with you on the Andor stuff, mostly, however...

 

You're confusing Europa Universalis with history.

Haha. I do love that series. It's been a while though.

 

This has gotten way off topic, but the main point is that it was necessary for Elayne to attain the throne by herself in order to have legitimacy. Merely showing up and using the troops Rand had left would just show her as being his puppet.

 

 

Uhhhhh. I fail to see your point with the Electorate. So far as I am aware the House of Hanover never surrendered. However the territory being overrun by the French, the Oberbefehlshaber (Lieutenant-General) Johann Ludwig von Wallmoden-Gimborn merely surrendered his army at the Convention of Artlenburg after his cause was lost. So far as I am aware George III King of Britain and head of House Hanover never surrendered to Napoleon nor did he recognize the French annexation of his lands in Germany. Especially considering how after Napoleon was defeated King George gave Hanover to his fifth son Ernest Augustus I. ;p

[Nooska]

Just to throw in an in-world example of conquring the capitol meaning conquering the country - Illian. The only difference is the nobles in Illian decided to crown him rather than oppose him - thus I submit that Rand did not have to conquer the entire nation, only the nobles as they would bring the entire nation to him. Kinda like how the succesion wars work.

 

That being said, my stance is this;

Rand did have the right of conquest de jure and de facto, but waived that right in favor of the existing legal regime which would automatically put elayne on the throne since her mother was presumed dead. Rand liberated Andor from forsake control and stabilized it with his armies until the proper and legal successor could take the throne.

We need not speculate into his holding court - he is at that point already an emperor with 3 nations under him (counting the Aiel as a nation and discounting Andor which he is merely holding) - he resides in Caemlyn at the time, and holds court in the palace while making it clear he does not claim Andor.

[randsc]

There's a quote, I don't know from who, that goes something like this:

 

"You can sanitize a piece of land from the air. Bomb it, strafe it, kill every living thing in it. But you don't own a piece of land until you stand an 18-year-old with a rifle on top of it."

 

We can argue legalities all day (or all month, as this thread proves). But the bottom line is that if Rand didn't rule Andor because he held only the capital, than there is no way Elayne ruled Andor without even holding the capital.

 

Rand and his forces eliminated the Foresaken who was actually in command of Andor, restored order, and kept all of the other possible contenders off of the throne. Elayne showed up at the gates of Caemlyn, and was admitted. She needn't have been.

 

You can say that there is a difference between "giving" somthing to someone, and allowing them to take it when you have the means to prevent them from doing so. I say that difference is largely semantic, and to the degree it is anything other semantic, it is public relations fluff. Useful for political purposes, and to manipulate public opinion, but no more than that.

 

Does Elayne have the right to Andor's throne, under the laws and traditions of Andor? Yes. Colavere had the right to Cairhein's throne, under the laws and traditions of Cairhein. If Rand had wanted Elayne's story to end like Colavere's, it would have.

 

I really, really hope that one of the provisions of the Dragon's Peace is meaningful limitations on the powers of all of the assorted lords, ladies, princesses and sundry other tyrants that leach off the populace of Randland.

[capuga]

You can say that there is a difference between "giving" somthing to someone, and allowing them to take it when you have the means to prevent them from doing so. I say that difference is largely semantic, and to the degree it is anything other semantic, it is public relations fluff. Useful for political purposes, and to manipulate public opinion, but no more than that.

 

Does Elayne have the right to Andor's throne, under the laws and traditions of Andor? Yes. Colavere had the right to Cairhein's throne, under the laws and traditions of Cairhein. If Rand had wanted Elayne's story to end like Colavere's, it would have.

 

All true. But, again, while a lot of this is meaningless semantics to us, it is not meaningless to the Andoran nobility. We are taking an outside looking in approach. From the inside, it was important to Elayne and the Andoran nobles that she will be dealing with for years to come that she be seen taking the throne without the Dragon's troops or presence. I'm sure they know that Rand could have just stomped all opposition and handed the throne to Elayne without the need for this Succession War. But the fact that she is seen as not using the Dragon's troops and going through the Andoran lawful course of securing houses is important to them.

[Suttree]

Does Elayne have the right to Andor's throne, under the laws and traditions of Andor? Yes. Colavere had the right to Cairhein's throne, under the laws and traditions of Cairhein. If Rand had wanted Elayne's story to end like Colavere's, it would have.

 

Slight diff in that Elayne was Daughter Heir who went about securing her throne in the honored tradition of Andoran nobility while Colavere was a cold blooded murderer.

[randsc]

You can say that there is a difference between "giving" somthing to someone, and allowing them to take it when you have the means to prevent them from doing so. I say that difference is largely semantic, and to the degree it is anything other semantic, it is public relations fluff. Useful for political purposes, and to manipulate public opinion, but no more than that.

 

Does Elayne have the right to Andor's throne, under the laws and traditions of Andor? Yes. Colavere had the right to Cairhein's throne, under the laws and traditions of Cairhein. If Rand had wanted Elayne's story to end like Colavere's, it would have.

 

All true. But, again, while a lot of this is meaningless semantics to us, it is not meaningless to the Andoran nobility. We are taking an outside looking in approach. From the inside, it was important to Elayne and the Andoran nobles that she will be dealing with for years to come that she be seen taking the throne without the Dragon's troops or presence. I'm sure they know that Rand could have just stomped all opposition and handed the throne to Elayne without the need for this Succession War. But the fact that she is seen as not using the Dragon's troops and going through the Andoran lawful course of securing houses is important to them.

 

 

Sure, because they're being manipulated. And because they have a vested interest in maintaining the absurd fiction that political and economic power is a birthright of certain persons.

 

If you think about it, the throne of Andor is a prize you get for demonstrating that you are the most inbred of all the contenders.

[randsc]

Does Elayne have the right to Andor's throne, under the laws and traditions of Andor? Yes. Colavere had the right to Cairhein's throne, under the laws and traditions of Cairhein. If Rand had wanted Elayne's story to end like Colavere's, it would have.

 

Slight diff in that Elayne was Daughter Heir who went about securing her throne in the honored tradition of Andoran nobility while Colavere was a cold blooded murderer.

 

Absolutely irrelevent to the question at hand.

[David Selig]

If you think about it, the throne of Andor is a prize you get for demonstrating that you are the most inbred of all the contenders.

ROFL. Great point.

[Suttree]

If you think about it, the throne of Andor is a prize you get for demonstrating that you are the most inbred of all the contenders.

ROFL. Great point.

 

Not exactly, this is addressed when Rand is speaking with Elenia.

 

 

Rand blinked. "You're all cousins? All of you? That doesn't seem poss" He leaned forward intently. "Elenia, if Morgase and Tigraine had been ... merchants, or farmers ... how closely would they have been related?"

 

"Farmers?" she exclaimed, staring at him. "My Lord Dragon, what a peculiar" The blood drained slowly from her face, he had been a farmer, after all. She wet her lips, a nervous flicker of the tongue. "I suppose ... I should have to think. Farmers. I suppose that means imagining all the Houses as farmers." A nervous titter broke from her before she drowned it in her punch. "Had they been farmers, I don't think anyone would consider them related at all. All the connections are too far back. But they were not, my Lord Dragon ..."

 

He stopped listening with more than half an ear and sank back in his chair. Not related.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

If you think about it, the throne of Andor is a prize you get for demonstrating that you are the most inbred of all the contenders.

ROFL. Great point.

 

Not exactly, this is addressed when Rand is speaking with Elenia.

 

 

Rand blinked. "You're all cousins? All of you? That doesn't seem poss" He leaned forward intently. "Elenia, if Morgase and Tigraine had been ... merchants, or farmers ... how closely would they have been related?"

 

"Farmers?" she exclaimed, staring at him. "My Lord Dragon, what a peculiar" The blood drained slowly from her face, he had been a farmer, after all. She wet her lips, a nervous flicker of the tongue. "I suppose ... I should have to think. Farmers. I suppose that means imagining all the Houses as farmers." A nervous titter broke from her before she drowned it in her punch. "Had they been farmers, I don't think anyone would consider them related at all. All the connections are too far back. But they were not, my Lord Dragon ..."

 

He stopped listening with more than half an ear and sank back in his chair. Not related.

 

 

It's still exactly what he said. The prize goes to the most inbred of the lot. What you posted there is rather immaterial and doesn't detract in the least from the validity of his statement.

[Suttree]

If you think about it, the throne of Andor is a prize you get for demonstrating that you are the most inbred of all the contenders.

ROFL. Great point.

 

Not exactly, this is addressed when Rand is speaking with Elenia.

 

 

Rand blinked. "You're all cousins? All of you? That doesn't seem poss" He leaned forward intently. "Elenia, if Morgase and Tigraine had been ... merchants, or farmers ... how closely would they have been related?"

 

"Farmers?" she exclaimed, staring at him. "My Lord Dragon, what a peculiar" The blood drained slowly from her face, he had been a farmer, after all. She wet her lips, a nervous flicker of the tongue. "I suppose ... I should have to think. Farmers. I suppose that means imagining all the Houses as farmers." A nervous titter broke from her before she drowned it in her punch. "Had they been farmers, I don't think anyone would consider them related at all. All the connections are too far back. But they were not, my Lord Dragon ..."

 

He stopped listening with more than half an ear and sank back in his chair. Not related.

 

 

It's still exactly what he said. The prize goes to the most inbred of the lot. What you posted there is rather immaterial and doesn't detract in the least from the validity of his statement.

 

Except for proving that they aren't inbred in the slightest when viewed in relation to the general populace, that and showcasing the comment made by David has nothing to do with being able to identify who ones ancestors are. Yeah totally immaterial that.

[Muad Cheade]

Rand didn't even try to establish any control of Caemlyn and the several miles around it. He certainly could have done it, but he didn't. He didn't ask the Andoran nobles to swear to him (unlike in Cairhien, for example), he wasn't ordering them anything, they were free to do whatever they wanted apart from trying to take over Caemlyn. Dyelin and another three High Seats got invited by him to come meet him, they came with a 5 days delay. Rand made a point to note that the Palace was of their Queens, not his own and told him they will gather armies against him if he's still ruling Caemlyn in few months time, and he still let them go in peace.

So...you're basically saying the same thing I said?

 

He did not ask people to swear to him because he was planning on giving the country to his girlfriend and he would only allow her to take it from him. We're getting back into the original argument (over him giving the throne away) though and I think that is somewhat fruitless at this stage.

My point was that he cannot be seen as a conqueror as he only held a small portion of Andor and didn't have the allegiance of the nobility or their forces.

 

Suffice it to say that I think he had a much better control of Camelyn/Andor than of pre-Darlin-Tear (where there was an open rebellion and many plots to get rid of him) or cairhein (where one of the nobles worked with the Aes Sedai that kidnapped him so she could take over when he "left"). In all places, he controlled it because no one else could take it from him - his army was the most feared. Illian was different in that the council willingly offered him the crown (admittedly, I was being difficult by adding Illian to my list before).

How so? There were still plots in Andor. And yes, the rebels' forces were up in arms in Tear but they were very docile. They merely just assembled in Haddon Mirk. Why do you think Rand let them be for so long? They remained there for until CoT when they besieged the Stone, which is a very symbolic yet militarily ineffective move.

 

Actually, Colavere (the noble you were talking about) had nothing to do with Rand's actual kidnapping. She only received assurance that the Tower would back her if she took the Sun Throne.

 

Would you say that the Seanchan did not really control their lands since many of the nobles were actively waging war against them? I would say that make no sense, but the Seanchan are dealing with actual rebellion vs a hypothetical one in Andor. (BTW, these andoran nobles who were ready to "rise up" didn't seem to raise much of a fuss when Gaebril seemingly had Morgase killed off and took over the throne, so I don't give their threats all that much credence).

The Seanchan undoubtedly controlled their lands. There was no rebellion, enemy armies were crushed or repelled and nobles swore fealty to the throne. Umm...what nobles waged war against them? King Ailron and the Amadacian nobility? They were killed in battle a long time ago. King Beslan? Yes, he plotted against Tuon. Now he is one of her staunchest allies. The Whitecloaks? They were the lapdogs of the Seanchan until Galad killed Valda. Ituralde? He's a general of an enemy nation, so he would not count. That's it I think.

 

How is it hypothetical? Dyelin told (more specifically threatened) Rand if that she would attack if his stay became an extended one. It is unlikely she wouldn't have allies in that endeavor. They didn't rebel against Gaebril because Morgase was still ruler in name although she was a puppet in reality. To rebel against Queen Morgase would be treason. By the time word had fully spread that Morgase was "dead," Rand had made his move for Caemlyn.

 

Uhhhhh. I fail to see your point with the Electorate. So far as I am aware the House of Hanover never surrendered. However the territory being overrun by the French, the Oberbefehlshaber (Lieutenant-General) Johann Ludwig von Wallmoden-Gimborn merely surrendered his army at the Convention of Artlenburg after his cause was lost. So far as I am aware George III King of Britain and head of House Hanover never surrendered to Napoleon nor did he recognize the French annexation of his lands in Germany. Especially considering how after Napoleon was defeated King George gave Hanover to his fifth son Ernest Augustus I. ;p

I was addressing when you claimed that Portugal could not surrender as they were in the "sphere of influence" of Great Britain, which makes no sense as Portugal was an ally not a client state. Hanover was ruled directly by the King of Britain, yet when Napoleon took the province and created a kingdom of it, there was barely any resistance from the people or nobility as they were now allied with their previous enemies the French. Your reasoning implied they should have continued to fight as the United Kingdom was still engaged with the French. I will note, the Hanoverian did retreat to England. It was off-topic and neither here nor there.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Rand didn't even try to establish any control of Caemlyn and the several miles around it. He certainly could have done it, but he didn't. He didn't ask the Andoran nobles to swear to him (unlike in Cairhien, for example), he wasn't ordering them anything, they were free to do whatever they wanted apart from trying to take over Caemlyn. Dyelin and another three High Seats got invited by him to come meet him, they came with a 5 days delay. Rand made a point to note that the Palace was of their Queens, not his own and told him they will gather armies against him if he's still ruling Caemlyn in few months time, and he still let them go in peace.

So...you're basically saying the same thing I said?

 

He did not ask people to swear to him because he was planning on giving the country to his girlfriend and he would only allow her to take it from him. We're getting back into the original argument (over him giving the throne away) though and I think that is somewhat fruitless at this stage.

My point was that he cannot be seen as a conqueror as he only held a small portion of Andor and didn't have the allegiance of the nobility or their forces.

 

Suffice it to say that I think he had a much better control of Camelyn/Andor than of pre-Darlin-Tear (where there was an open rebellion and many plots to get rid of him) or cairhein (where one of the nobles worked with the Aes Sedai that kidnapped him so she could take over when he "left"). In all places, he controlled it because no one else could take it from him - his army was the most feared. Illian was different in that the council willingly offered him the crown (admittedly, I was being difficult by adding Illian to my list before).

How so? There were still plots in Andor. And yes, the rebels' forces were up in arms in Tear but they were very docile. They merely just assembled in Haddon Mirk. Why do you think Rand let them be for so long? They remained there for until CoT when they besieged the Stone, which is a very symbolic yet militarily ineffective move.

 

Actually, Colavere (the noble you were talking about) had nothing to do with Rand's actual kidnapping. She only received assurance that the Tower would back her if she took the Sun Throne.

 

Would you say that the Seanchan did not really control their lands since many of the nobles were actively waging war against them? I would say that make no sense, but the Seanchan are dealing with actual rebellion vs a hypothetical one in Andor. (BTW, these andoran nobles who were ready to "rise up" didn't seem to raise much of a fuss when Gaebril seemingly had Morgase killed off and took over the throne, so I don't give their threats all that much credence).

The Seanchan undoubtedly controlled their lands. There was no rebellion, enemy armies were crushed or repelled and nobles swore fealty to the throne. Umm...what nobles waged war against them? King Ailron and the Amadacian nobility? They were killed in battle a long time ago. King Beslan? Yes, he plotted against Tuon. Now he is one of her staunchest allies. The Whitecloaks? They were the lapdogs of the Seanchan until Galad killed Valda. Ituralde? He's a general of an enemy nation, so he would not count. That's it I think.

 

How is it hypothetical? Dyelin told (more specifically threatened) Rand if that she would attack if his stay became an extended one. It is unlikely she wouldn't have allies in that endeavor. They didn't rebel against Gaebril because Morgase was still ruler in name although she was a puppet in reality. To rebel against Queen Morgase would be treason. By the time word had fully spread that Morgase was "dead," Rand had made his move for Caemlyn.

 

Uhhhhh. I fail to see your point with the Electorate. So far as I am aware the House of Hanover never surrendered. However the territory being overrun by the French, the Oberbefehlshaber (Lieutenant-General) Johann Ludwig von Wallmoden-Gimborn merely surrendered his army at the Convention of Artlenburg after his cause was lost. So far as I am aware George III King of Britain and head of House Hanover never surrendered to Napoleon nor did he recognize the French annexation of his lands in Germany. Especially considering how after Napoleon was defeated King George gave Hanover to his fifth son Ernest Augustus I. ;p

I was addressing when you claimed that Portugal could not surrender as they were in the "sphere of influence" of Great Britain, which makes no sense as Portugal was an ally not a client state. Hanover was ruled directly by the King of Britain, yet when Napoleon took the province and created a kingdom of it, there was barely any resistance from the people or nobility as they were now allied with their previous enemies the French. Your reasoning implied they should have continued to fight as the United Kingdom was still engaged with the French. I will note, the Hanoverian did retreat to England. It was off-topic and neither here nor there.

 

 

The Portuguese couldn't surrender due to their position. The British would not have tolerated it and were fighting tooth and nail in the Peninsular War. Considering they were a faction State in the British sphere it would have been treasonous.

 

There was no resistance amongst the population?`What? I was under the impression that along with Ruhr-Germans that people from Hanover made up a sizable bulk of units such as the Lützow Free Corps, which led to further antagonizing circumstances between Prussia and Great Britain due to the latter seeing Hanoverians as their subjects. Not to mention the near constant need for martial law to be kept in place due to the irked feelings in regards to Napoleonic conscription. Or how upon the Russian arrival there was quite the walk over towards the Allied forces. Or how in the Russian campaign many conscripted Hanoverians walked/deserted over to the Prussian Army given the opportunity, a fact which was well known enough that Cossacks/Russians who captured conscripted Germans (including Hanoverians) in the Grande Armée did not execute them immediately such as they did with Frenchman, instead they gave them over to the Prussians because of the formers strong desire to often take up arms against the French. Not to mention organizations such as the Russian–German Legion which also constituted again more Germans out of French lines who walked over, deserted or were captured who fought for Imperial Russia and were payrolled by Great Britain. etc.. etc..

[Muad Cheade]

The Portuguese couldn't surrender due to their position. The British would not have tolerated it and were fighting tooth and nail in the Peninsular War. Considering they were a faction State in the British sphere it would have been treasonous.

I wasn't aware Portugal was a vassal state of Great Britain. As an ally of Great Britain, Portugal could have sued for peace with the French, yet living under Napoleon's rule isn't really a..endearing option to most rulers.

 

There was no resistance amongst the population?`What? I was under the impression that along with Ruhr-Germans that people from Hanover made up a sizable bulk of units such as the Lützow Free Corps, which led to further antagonizing circumstances between Prussia and Great Britain due to the latter seeing Hanoverians as their subjects.

From what I have always read, the Lutzow Freikorps came from all over Germany. I have never heard of them being primarily from Hanover but you never know I guess. Ruhr, Germany was in the Grand Duchy of Berg, not the Kingdom of Westphalia. Also, the Lutzow Freikorps was formed in 1813, 7 years after Westphalia had been formed. I wouldn't call it resistance. More like an opportunistic patriotism. Also, less than 5,000 volunteers who were equipped by themselves...I wouldn't exactly consider them threats to the sovereignty of Westphalia although they did do well during the Battle of Leipzig.

 

Not to mention the near constant need for martial law to be kept in place due to the irked feelings in regards to Napoleonic conscription. Or how upon the Russian arrival there was quite the walk over towards the Allied forces. Or how in the Russian campaign many conscripted Hanoverians walked/deserted over to the Prussian Army given the opportunity, a fact which was well known enough that Cossacks/Russians who captured conscripted Germans (including Hanoverians) in the Grande Armée did not execute them immediately such as they did with Frenchman, instead they gave them over to the Prussians because of the formers strong desire to often take up arms against the French. Not to mention organizations such as the Russian–German Legion which also constituted again more Germans out of French lines who walked over, deserted or were captured who fought for Imperial Russia and were payrolled by Great Britain. etc.. etc..

Yes, there was some discontentment over the conscription, taxation, the financial problems, etc. I did say "barely." My point was the "uprisings" and violence (which mostly didn't happen until the final years of the Kingdom of Westphalia) were not related to the fact that the King of Britain was no longer their ruler and they did not continue to fight against Napoleon because the British still did (as you say Portugal had to do). In fact 25,000 Westphalians fought for Napoleon against the British and Germans....That's the whole reason I brought up that example, not to get into a historical debate. I don't get why you brought up the Russian-German Legion, but okay.

[randsc]

Well, this thread has gotten unusually far afield.

 

We can debate the legalities of Perrin's position, relative to Elayne's, forever. But let's not forget what the characters themselves believe.

 

 

"Do you think they'll be enough to stop Rand?" Faile asked. "To help us keep him from breaking the seals?"

 

"Help us?" Perrin asked.

 

"You told Elayne that you'd go to the Field of Merrilor," Faile said. "Because of what Egwene had asked."

 

"Oh, I told her I needed to be there," Perrin said. "But I never said I was going to take Egwene's side."

 

 

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

[Mr Ares]

He did not ask people to swear to him because he was planning on giving the country to his girlfriend and he would only allow her to take it from him.

If they are sworn to him, he can give them. But he doesn't have their loyalty. He has no control over the lands they command. He can give her a city, at best, but not the country along with it. Perrin has Ghealdan, he could give it away. Mayene is an ally, he couldn't give it away. Andor was an independant nation, Rand couldn't give it. Caemlyn was Andor's capital, currently under foreign occupation. De facto, he could give her that. Neither de facto nor de jure could he give her Andor, because he didn't have it, he had no control over it, they did not fly his banners, they did not support him (though they didn't actively oppose him - probably because he hadn't tried to force the issue).

 

(BTW, these andoran nobles who were ready to "rise up" didn't seem to raise much of a fuss when Gaebril seemingly had Morgase killed off and took over the throne, so I don't give their threats all that much credence).

Morgase was a Queen who had alienated a lot of her support by the end, much of it being won over to Gaebril himself, who was (as far as they knew) an Andoran lord and not a foreign tyrant trying to impose his rule.

 

We can argue legalities all day (or all month, as this thread proves). But the bottom line is that if Rand didn't rule Andor because he held only the capital, than there is no way Elayne ruled Andor without even holding the capital.

True, she didn't rule Andor until she won the throne in KoD. Then she got support from a majority of Houses, and crushed virtually all opposition to her. Even when she had the capital she didn't have the country (hence holding the capital is not enough. No-one said "she's got Caemlyn, let's all go home").

 

I really, really hope that one of the provisions of the Dragon's Peace is meaningful limitations on the powers of all of the assorted lords, ladies, princesses and sundry other tyrants that leach off the populace of Randland.

Tyrants like Rand?

[randsc]

 

 

I really, really hope that one of the provisions of the Dragon's Peace is meaningful limitations on the powers of all of the assorted lords, ladies, princesses and sundry other tyrants that leach off the populace of Randland.

Tyrants like Rand?

 

Among others, yes. Though I expect him to, one way or another, play no continuing role after the conclusion of the series.

 

Also, and especially, the various useless, spoiled, entitled characters in the book who think that leadership is their birthright.

[Muad Cheade]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

Also, and especially, the various useless, spoiled, entitled characters in the book who think that leadership is their birthright.

Leadership technically is their birthright as they are raised to be Lords and Ladies of their nations. Yes, some may be incompetent and short-sided, but so are every other group.

[MasterAblar]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence

 

As far as I can see Darlin (and I assume Gregorin) are going to listen before deciding who they support. In any case Perrin has not sworn to Elayne and like Mat his army will go where Rand wants during the last battle. I don't think anything can be deduced about loyalties until the last battle has past since allegiance to the dragon reborn seems to supersede any other loyalties. And just because you are loyal to someone does not mean you have to agree with them. Nynaeve for example seems to have been convinced by Rand in the "breaking the seals debate."

[randsc]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

 

Further proof that the elaborate, "He will have to come when she calls because X, Y, Z" arguments people constructed in this thread fail.

 

People in Randland simply don't seem to believe as the royalists here do.

[Muad Cheade]

Perrin clearly still feels himself to be an independent actor, not someone who must follow where Elayne leads.

Darlin and Gregorin are sworn to Rand yet it seems they (definitely Darlin) are willing to go against him in regards to breaking the seal or are atleast on the fence.

 

 

Further proof that the elaborate, "He will have to come when she calls because X, Y, Z" arguments people constructed in this thread fail.

 

People in Randland simply don't seem to believe as the royalists here do.

Deciding whether or not to support breaking the seals has to do with his role as the "Dragon's Bannerman," not in his role as Elayne's liegeman.

 

A similar example would be Elayne would have no legitimate authority to use Rand (if he regains his role as Lord of tTR) to interfere in Illian.