Perrin's new station in Andor

[David Selig]

Perrin can't become King of Saldaea. He can become only the consort of Queen Faile. Faile has younger brothers, who'd succeed her if she were to die without having born a heir.

 

And Perrin and Faile specifically agreed during the meeting with Elayne to put in writing a deal preventing one of their heirs holing both Two Rivers's Lordship (or Stewardship, whatever the term is) and Saldaea's throne.

Sure he can. There is no precedent in WoT for the "Prince-consort" title of modern europe, and from the Glossary in ToM:

Saldaea: [...] It is ruled by a king or a queen, and is a hereditary monarchy. [...] The husband or wife of a saldaean ruler is not simply a consort, but an almost co-equal ruler. Saldaea is currently ruled by[...]Tenobia [...]; Her Marshal-General and the leader of her army is her uncle and heir, Davram Bashere [...]

Actually there's a precedent.

EOTW, Ch. 34

 

And Taringail Damodred. You wouldn’t have thought he’d lost his wife, him hot to figure which House would win so he could marry again and become Prince Consort after all.

 

Ethenielle of Kandor also had a Prince Consort in New Spring.

 

Almost co-ruler is not the same as "reigning king". Faile would be the monarch, not Perrin. And the whole point of my posts is that it's very unlikely that one person will hold both the titles of Two Rivers Lord and Saldaean monarch.

[Nooska]

I'll confess to not having read NS for several years.

As for Taringail, he is not a prince-consort as the title applies in modern europe (the whole sentence is relevant). He is prince-consort without power (by himself) because he is married to a dynastic monarch where the rule can only and will always lie with a queen.

 

That is quite contrary to the description of Saldaean co-rulership - and pleas enote I was disagreeing with the possibility of Perrin becoming king of saldaea - we have no information on the styling of the consort coruler of Saldaea, and it could just as easily be king, as the modern european styling of prince-consort to a reigning queen is not precedented in Randland (excluding any mentions in NS, since I haven't read that in a loooong time) - the modern european usage being that in equal or near-equal primogeniture, the husband of a reigning queen is prince-consort.

I believe that this styling has its origins with prince Albert in 1857 (british), followed by prince Henrik in 2005 (danish), and some time in the future we will most likely see it used for prince Daniel (swedish).

Apart from being a title (which we have 2 examples of in the real world) it is a distinction, but a co-equal ruler (be that equal or near equal) is very unlikely to be styled simple "prince", and "Prince-Consort" is not a title we have seen in Randland to my knowledge (again NS excluded), Taringail was not styled Price-Consort, but was prince-consort.

[David Selig]

OK, so maybe Perrin'll become King of Saldaea in name, and have much more power than the typical prince-consort. Still, the monarch and the main power in Saldaea in this case would be Faile which was my main point from the start. And in practice Faile'll certainly take the main role if it happens, since she's way better prepared for this position and is Saldaean. Perrin will gladly take the back seat.

[Durinax]

personally I like to think that if anythign where too happen that lets say saldaea (under Faile) where to go to war with andor they would negotiate that the TR's where to be declared a neutral area that would not supply armsmen to either side. Although that is very candy coated I hope it would happen

[Fel]

This is ridiculous now.

 

From the view of the general population:

Fact 1) Morgase disappeared after alienating her strongest supporters

Fact 2) Rand, the Aiel and Saldaeans appeared and Gaebril disappeared

Fact 3) Elayne is MIA on White Tower business

 

Therefore power vacuum in Andor

Here is where many people disagree. Rand established order in Andor after Rahvin and made clear that he was holding the chair for Elayne. The rivals for the throne did not dare move against Bashere and the Aiel for many months (not sure exactly how long, but it seemed forever) while Elayne did her thing in the south. During that time, Elayne's throne was saved for her. If Rand had simply killed Rahvin and left, another noble house would SURELY have taken over the throne during that time and Elayne would be high seat of house trakand (if her relatives did not kick her out), paying homage to Queen Dyelin.

 

So, how did Rand not give Elayne her throne? Or, at least give her Camelyn and give her a chance to get the throne without having to raise a rebellion against the new queen from another house? To say she got it on her "own initiative" is a bit of a stretch.

 

If i pick my kids up on my shoulder to pluck something off a high shelf, you can say they took it off the shelf, but to say that I did not provide an important part in making it possible is a bit disingenuous.

 

Fact 4) Rand naively claims that Elayne will inherit the throne

Fact 5) If Elayne acknowledges this, she prevents civil war, but appears a puppet to be toppled.

Note: Acknowledging includes using his armies to secure the throne

 

Therefore Elayne shuns Rand's assistance and uses her own initiative to gain noble support. Challengers to the throne engage in civil war

It was a war of succession, not a rebellion by the challengers to the throne. Luckily, Elayne had been given Camelyn and also luckily, she felt ok using the One Power to augment her battle lines. Without those, there is no way that she even beats Amyrilla (sp?), forget about the Pelivar, et al.

[moratcorlm]

I'm curious why "many people" find within themselves the impulse to deny what's stated outright many times in the text and impose their own interpretations.

[Fel]

I'm curious why "many people" find within themselves the impulse to deny what's stated outright many times in the text and impose their own interpretations.

What is so blindingly obvious in the text that I am denying and imposing my own interpretation? If you disagree, say your reasons, not just vague allusions that people who disagree must be ignoring facts and silly.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Think it a bit further along. If Faile assumes regency in Saldaea it would mean that due to Saldaean custom Perrin would assume a co-regency. Elayne has no right to command the King of Saldaea for anything. It is not rebellion if he refuses to send arms either from Ghealdan, Saldaea or his holdings in Two Rivers.

Actually, it is rebellion if he refuses to send arms from his holdings in the TR, as that is part of Andor. Elayne has every right to command the Steward of the TR, even if she has none to command the King of Saldaea.

 

The throne was granted and Elayne accepted it. Some nobles took issue, however Elayne stubborn and dumb as she is opted to stretch out the misery by refusing to cooperate or accept the help of the local elements of the Dragon's military to suppress the rebellion. This lead to a prolonged siege and all around misery for many commoners, simply so Elayne could mend her bruised ego and delude herself a bit at not being granted a throne.

 

House Trakand was ousted due to how unpopular Morgase made herself out to be. It's quite clear that Elayne rules solely thanks to her standing with the Dragon. The Dragon murdered Lord Gaebril, conquered Andor, established his rule over the land (the creation of the BT alone shows his having been ruler over the land) and eventually gave her the city as a gift.

Rand did not conquer Andor, he liberated it - he sees the distinction, even if you don't, as he took no title there, did not make Elayne a Steward of the Dragon, nor did he allow the Aiel to take the fifth. So to him, and to them, it is a matter of him ousting a Chosen, but not conquering a country. And let us not forget that he abandoned Andor before Elayne returned to Caemlyn. He left a power vacuum, and it was left to Elayne to fill it. Elayne took power on her own merits, she did not accept it from Rand - he was in no position to gift it to her.

 

 

 

If that is truly the case and such a move does constitute. Why did the Duchy of Hanover side with Great Britain in the war of Austrian succession? More interesting why does no one consider Hanover going to war against it's North-German confederates, most prominently Prussia to have been an act of treason? Oh yeah. Because due to the Act of Settlement the descendants of the Electress of Hanover became the royal family of Great Britain. Hanover despite being allied with Prussia was a holding of the King of England (George Louis or King George was also the Elector of Hanover), the King of England declared war on Prussia and the Hapsburg dynasty. Hanover mustered arms for England and not a single soul spoke of treason. So what you're trying to paint there would be a revolutionary concept that has no bearing on history of actual factual analysis of the same situation in the past.

 

Oh wait. Let's name more examples. Peter III was the Tsar of Russia, but he was also the Duke of Holstein-Gottorp. When Russia went to war with the German provinces, how did Holstein muster? Or why not flip it around. The Duke of Württemberg serving alongside the King of Prussia instead of the Austro-Hungarian Emperor during the 7 years war. When Phillip II mustered forces for the Third Crusade, did he consider it treason when the men in Poitou, Aquitaine or Normandy mustered instead for Richard I? Richard I after all being a Plantagenet from a line of French Dukes originating from the Normandy. No, nobody spoke of treason in any of these cases.

 

So please bother explaining to me as to how Perrin, when King of Saldaea, refuses to send men from the Two Rivers to support House Trakand if Andor enters a conflict? Please I beg you. There is literally not historical precedent to consider it such. Just open a damn history book.

 

Every day you prove more and more that while you can quite admirably parrot historical details from memory(incorrect though they may be in some cases) you have absolutely zero understanding of what RJ intended when writing his stories. The more pertinent suggestion in your case would be to just open a damn WoT book........AND a history book while you are at it.

 

Charles Eugene, Duke of Württemberg sided against Prussia during the 7 years war.

 

 

My bad. I recalled the wrong Dukedom. It's been a while since I read up on Prussian history, I was probably thinking of the Franco-Prussian war, I think we can agree that there were definitely way too many principalities.

[Mr Ares]

This is ridiculous now.

 

From the view of the general population:

Fact 1) Morgase disappeared after alienating her strongest supporters

Fact 2) Rand, the Aiel and Saldaeans appeared and Gaebril disappeared

Fact 3) Elayne is MIA on White Tower business

 

Therefore power vacuum in Andor

Here is where many people disagree. Rand established order in Andor after Rahvin and made clear that he was holding the chair for Elayne. The rivals for the throne did not dare move against Bashere and the Aiel for many months (not sure exactly how long, but it seemed forever) while Elayne did her thing in the south. During that time, Elayne's throne was saved for her. If Rand had simply killed Rahvin and left, another noble house would SURELY have taken over the throne during that time and Elayne would be high seat of house trakand (if her relatives did not kick her out), paying homage to Queen Dyelin.

 

So, how did Rand not give Elayne her throne? Or, at least give her Camelyn and give her a chance to get the throne without having to raise a rebellion against the new queen from another house? To say she got it on her "own initiative" is a bit of a stretch.

 

If i pick my kids up on my shoulder to pluck something off a high shelf, you can say they took it off the shelf, but to say that I did not provide an important part in making it possible is a bit disingenuous.

Bear in mind that Rand did disappear, leaving a power vacuum. Checking the timeline, I made it over sixty days between Rand abandoning Caemlyn and Elayne arriving in the city to lay claim to the throne. So Rand was not there, was not capable of offering the city (or country) to her at that time. OK, so Rand might have helped a little in delaying the time before a civil war could start, but he can hardly be considered to have offered her the throne on a silver platter. Rand delayed rival claimants to the throne, he didn't eliminate them entirely, so it is quite justified to say Elayne took the throne, on her own merits, and not at all to say that Rand gave it to her.

[randsc]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

[Suttree]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. When shown facts from the book that disagree with your viewpoint you can't just ascribe motivations to RJ of which you are in no way privy. We have been shown the history of Andor and how important it is to them that Succesion be decided in an internal manner. With Ishara declaring herself the first Queen of Andor, establishing an unbroken bloodline of strong female rulers, Elayne could not be seen to accept the throne from Rand. If she had done so Dyelin would have thrown her support against Elayne or made a claim herself which would have caused the situation to be far worse.

 

As to Cairhein why would Elayne gaining the sun throne cause chaos and rebellion? Morgase and Taringail were married to assure good relations between the two countries. Rand intended the Sun Throne for Elayne Trakand, by virtue of her right through her father Taringail Damodred. She has the best claim to the throne.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. When shown facts from the book that disagree with your viewpoint you can't just ascribe motivations to RJ of which you are in no way privy. We have been shown the history of Andor and how important it is to them that Succesion be decided in an internal manner. With Ishara declaring herself the first Queen of Andor, establishing an unbroken bloodline of strong female rulers, Elayne could not be seen to accept the throne from Rand. If she had done so Dyelin would have thrown her support against Elayne or made a claim herself which would have caused the situation to be far worse.

 

As to Cairhein why would Elayne gaining the sun throne cause chaos and rebellion? Morgase and Taringail were married to assure good relations between the two countries. Rand intended the Sun Throne for Elayne Trakand, by virtue of her right through her father Taringail Damodred. She has the best claim to the throne.

 

Isn't Galad Taringail's eldest child? Doesn't he have the most senior and strongest claim to the throne out of line Damodred?

[Suttree]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. When shown facts from the book that disagree with your viewpoint you can't just ascribe motivations to RJ of which you are in no way privy. We have been shown the history of Andor and how important it is to them that Succesion be decided in an internal manner. With Ishara declaring herself the first Queen of Andor, establishing an unbroken bloodline of strong female rulers, Elayne could not be seen to accept the throne from Rand. If she had done so Dyelin would have thrown her support against Elayne or made a claim herself which would have caused the situation to be far worse.

 

As to Cairhein why would Elayne gaining the sun throne cause chaos and rebellion? Morgase and Taringail were married to assure good relations between the two countries. Rand intended the Sun Throne for Elayne Trakand, by virtue of her right through her father Taringail Damodred. She has the best claim to the throne.

 

Isn't Galad Taringail's eldest child? Doesn't he have the most senior and strongest claim to the throne out of line Damodred?

 

You might have a point there actually. Wonder if there are any rules about the LCC sitting on a throne? We don't have any indications that the Children are like the Nights Watch in ASoIaF where they have to swear away former family connections.

[David Selig]

I don't think being born earlier matters much in the Cairhien Succession. Moiraine had two older sisters, but nobody supported them for the Sun Throne and Moiraine was thought to be the strongest candidate out of her House.

[randsc]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. When shown facts from the book that disagree with your viewpoint you can't just ascribe motivations to RJ of which you are in no way privy. We have been shown the history of Andor and how important it is to them that Succesion be decided in an internal manner. With Ishara declaring herself the first Queen of Andor, establishing an unbroken bloodline of strong female rulers, Elayne could not be seen to accept the throne from Rand. If she had done so Dyelin would have thrown her support against Elayne or made a claim herself which would have caused the situation to be far worse.

 

As to Cairhein why would Elayne gaining the sun throne cause chaos and rebellion? Morgase and Taringail were married to assure good relations between the two countries. Rand intended the Sun Throne for Elayne Trakand, by virtue of her right through her father Taringail Damodred. She has the best claim to the throne.

 

 

Approximately 95% of the posts on this board are devoted to divining and speculating about the author's motivations. Deal with it.

[Suttree]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. When shown facts from the book that disagree with your viewpoint you can't just ascribe motivations to RJ of which you are in no way privy. We have been shown the history of Andor and how important it is to them that Succesion be decided in an internal manner. With Ishara declaring herself the first Queen of Andor, establishing an unbroken bloodline of strong female rulers, Elayne could not be seen to accept the throne from Rand. If she had done so Dyelin would have thrown her support against Elayne or made a claim herself which would have caused the situation to be far worse.

 

As to Cairhein why would Elayne gaining the sun throne cause chaos and rebellion? Morgase and Taringail were married to assure good relations between the two countries. Rand intended the Sun Throne for Elayne Trakand, by virtue of her right through her father Taringail Damodred. She has the best claim to the throne.

 

 

Approximately 95% of the posts on this board are devoted to divining and speculating about the author's motivations. Deal with it.

 

I have by proving you wrong at every turn. What you are suggesting, that RJ created the rich back story of Andoran traditions, their royal line, and how they deal with succession simply so Elayne wouldn't be a "pointless" character is ludicrous. At each turn such as our discussion of Cairhein you simply ignore what you are wrong about and move on to something else entirely. Instead of using the story to back up your views(which is what 95% of the posts attempt to do when speculating) you simply present personnel opinion that runs contrary to what RJ has written.

[Suttree]

I don't think being born earlier matters much in the Cairhien Succession. Moiraine had two older sisters, but nobody supported them for the Sun Throne and Moiraine was thought to be the strongest candidate out of her House.

 

Good point, yet another reason why we can't always compare real world scenarios when attempting to reason out WoT politics.

[randsc]

So Rand take the throne of Illian for himself, without causing chaos and rebellion in Illian.

 

He can overturn the historic privileges of the High Lords of Tear, and force them to select a King, without causing chaos and rebellion in Tear. In fact, doing so contributes to the END of a rebellion in Tear.

 

He can declare that the Queen of a neighboring historic rival will have the throne of Cairhein, without causing chaos and rebellion in Cairhein. Don't forget, Andorans were killing Cairheinin, in Cairhein, a year ago. Until Mat killed the Andorans, anyway.

 

But if Elayne uses his troops to help secure her rule, that will cause chaos and rebellion in Andor? Why? Is the average Andoran 25 IQ points shy of the world-wide average?

 

I know that the answer to, "why" is because the author said so. Or had a character say so, anyway. But it's illogical. And so I still favor the, "it had to happen this way so the Elayne character wouldn't be completely pointless" explanation.

 

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. When shown facts from the book that disagree with your viewpoint you can't just ascribe motivations to RJ of which you are in no way privy. We have been shown the history of Andor and how important it is to them that Succesion be decided in an internal manner. With Ishara declaring herself the first Queen of Andor, establishing an unbroken bloodline of strong female rulers, Elayne could not be seen to accept the throne from Rand. If she had done so Dyelin would have thrown her support against Elayne or made a claim herself which would have caused the situation to be far worse.

 

As to Cairhein why would Elayne gaining the sun throne cause chaos and rebellion? Morgase and Taringail were married to assure good relations between the two countries. Rand intended the Sun Throne for Elayne Trakand, by virtue of her right through her father Taringail Damodred. She has the best claim to the throne.

 

 

Approximately 95% of the posts on this board are devoted to divining and speculating about the author's motivations. Deal with it.

 

I have by proving you wrong at every turn. What you are suggesting, that RJ created the rich back story of Andoran traditions, their royal line, and how they deal with succession simply so Elayne wouldn't be a "pointless" character is ludicrous. At each turn such as our discussion of Cairhein you simply ignore what you are wrong about and move on to something else entirely. Instead of using the story to back up your views(which is what 95% of the posts attempt to do when speculating) you simply present personnel opinion that runs contrary to what RJ has written.

 

You've proven me wrong at every turn? I didn't even notice you until your last post. I'll have to go back and look for all of these epic arguments of yours.

 

Let me give you a hint. When someone speculates about what motivated an author to write a certain sequence in a certain way, it is not POSSIBLE to "prove" that person wrong, unless you are, yourself, the author.

 

I'm not disputing that the text is clear that Elayne had to take power the way she did. The question is WHY the text makes that clear, when it certainly isn't required by the logic of the WoT world.

 

It is entirely reasonable to speculate that Jordan's desire that Elayne be given something to do during the interminable lengths of time between her truly important scenes might be part of the reason. Authors of multi-book stories like to have characters show up, "on-screen" every so often, not disappear for books on end. Indeed, the fact the Jordan didn't do enough of this is one of the common criticisms of his work. It is probably the most common criticism of George RR Martin's books (since the way Martin chose to divide his groups means we haven't seen half his characters for ten years now).

 

Just to extend this, I would speculate that a similar rationale was behind the whole Perrin/Faile thing. There were hundreds of pages devoted to that, and the plot could have been advanced by the same amount in about ten pages. So why did he do it? It isn't crazy to think he wanted to keep Perrin on-screen occasionally between his two savings of Rand (his most important role in the plot).

[Suttree]

I'm not disputing that the text is clear that Elayne had to take power the way she did. The question is WHY the text makes that clear, when it certainly isn't required by the logic of the WoT world.

 

Yet again you have changed your meaning. At the start of the discussion you absolutely were disputing that Elayne had to take power in the way she did.

 

The most unconscionable thing Elayne did, in the whole series, was subject her people to unnecessary months of war so that she could say that she wasn't accepting Andor from Rand.

[randsc]

I'm not disputing that the text is clear that Elayne had to take power the way she did. The question is WHY the text makes that clear, when it certainly isn't required by the logic of the WoT world.

 

Yet again you have changed your meaning. At the start of the discussion you absolutely were disputing that Elayne had to take power in the way she did.

 

The most unconscionable thing Elayne did, in the whole series, was subject her people to unnecessary months of war so that she could say that she wasn't accepting Andor from Rand.

 

No, there is a difference.

 

Elayne has good reasons, clearly explained by Jordan through the voice of Bashere (who is not, let's bear in mind, and expert in Andoran politics), for acting as she did. It is not clear that Elayne HAD to act the way she did. I probably should have written, "I'm not disputing that the text is clear that Elayne had good reasons to take power the way she did."

 

Elayne is in a position of weighing the possible unintended consequences of two different approaches. I find the possibility of future strife based on her seeming lack of legitimacy if she took the throne from Rand to be not remotely worth the certainty of further suffering for her people in the near-to-mid term caused by a war of succession.

 

And let's be honest. Most of Andor, including even most of its nobles, aren't privy to Elayne's monologues explaining that she is, "claiming the throne in her own right." What they see is Andor conquered/freed (depending on your perspective) by the Dragon and his Aiel, followed by a period of quiet, followed by Elayne claiming the throne, with a brief but nasty civil war following. Granted, there are a couple of nobles who are shown to be willing to oppose her if she is taking the throne as Rand's designee. On the other hand, there are several Great houses willing to oppose her whatever rationale she offers.

 

The fact remains that you have no more idea than I do WHY Jordan wrote this the way he did. Let's be honest. If the entire Elayne succession drama had been replaced with, "And then Elayne assumed her rightful place as Andor's Queen," it wouldn't change the overall plot a bit.

[Suttree]

I'm not disputing that the text is clear that Elayne had to take power the way she did. The question is WHY the text makes that clear, when it certainly isn't required by the logic of the WoT world.

 

Yet again you have changed your meaning. At the start of the discussion you absolutely were disputing that Elayne had to take power in the way she did.

 

The most unconscionable thing Elayne did, in the whole series, was subject her people to unnecessary months of war so that she could say that she wasn't accepting Andor from Rand.

 

No, there is a difference.

 

Elayne has good reasons, clearly explained by Jordan through the voice of Bashere (who is not, let's bear in mind, and expert in Andoran politics), for acting as she did. It is not clear that Elayne HAD to act the way she did. I probably should have written, "I'm not disputing that the text is clear that Elayne had good reasons to take power the way she did."

 

Elayne is in a position of weighing the possible unintended consequences of two different approaches. I find the possibility of future strife based on her seeming lack of legitimacy if she took the throne from Rand to be not remotely worth the certainty of further suffering for her people in the near-to-mid term caused by a war of succession.

 

And let's be honest. Most of Andor, including even most of its nobles, aren't privy to Elayne's monologues explaining that she is, "claiming the throne in her own right." What they see is Andor conquered/freed (depending on your perspective) by the Dragon and his Aiel, followed by a period of quiet, followed by Elayne claiming the throne, with a brief but nasty civil war following. Granted, there are a couple of nobles who are shown to be willing to oppose her if she is taking the throne as Rand's designee. On the other hand, there are several Great houses willing to oppose her whatever rationale she offers.

 

The fact remains that you have no more idea than I do WHY Jordan wrote this the way he did. Let's be honest. If the entire Elayne succession drama had been replaced with, "And then Elayne assumed her rightful place as Andor's Queen," it wouldn't change the overall plot a bit.

 

Ok I see your pov.

 

To address a couple points...

 

First Andor was liberated, that is a fact. Rand never took a title or allowed the Aiel to take the fifth.

 

Now in talking about how most nobles arent privy to Elayne's internal monologue I would say the most important one is. It is made clear in the first Lion Throne scene upon Elayne returning that Dyelin would have sided against Elayne had she tried to accept the throne from Rand. It is also mentioned that due to the Andoran history of strong Queens, the Lion Throne can't be handed over by any man which is a "self evident truth" to any Andoran. She would have had Dyelin, whom most great houses supported at the time standing against Trakand(along with betraying Andoran custom in the eyes of the general populace) at which point it is likely things would have turned out far worse and the civil war would have been anything but brief.

[moratcorlm]

Let's be honest. If the entire Elayne succession drama had been replaced with, "And then Elayne assumed her rightful place as Andor's Queen," it wouldn't change the overall plot a bit.

By "the overall plot" do you mean "Rand's plotline" or what? This is a story with an ensemble cast, six roughly co-equal main characters. So, yes, he planned the Andoran succession as one of the things the Elayne character would do, and I'm sure he was sorry you didn't like it.

[randsc]

Let's be honest. If the entire Elayne succession drama had been replaced with, "And then Elayne assumed her rightful place as Andor's Queen," it wouldn't change the overall plot a bit.

By "the overall plot" do you mean "Rand's plotline" or what? This is a story with an ensemble cast, six roughly co-equal main characters. So, yes, he planned the Andoran succession as one of the things the Elayne character would do, and I'm sure he was sorry you didn't like it.

 

Now that's just silly. Which character is destined to save the world? The characters aren't 'roughly co-equal." Elayne's rough equal in the story is Mat or Perrin.

 

The Andoran succession story has thus far done nothing at all to advance the plot, never mind resolve it. believe it our not, even this series will have a plot resolution at some point. And I stand by my statement. When we reach that plot resolution, it will turn out that the overall narrative would not have changed if the whole succession storyline were reduced to that one line. Unless you think it will be revealed that if Dylin becomes Queen, the Dark One wins?

[moratcorlm]

Which character is destined to save the world?

Why is that relevant? Rand is the most important person in the world on a diegetic level, yes, but to the reader he is a character, not a person; we do not understand novels purely on a diegetic level, and if you do I'd argue you're getting too involved. Jordan obviously (because he wrote six major viewpoint characters) didn't think this was merely Rand's story he was telling, and I think it's kind of weird that you don't accept an ensemble cast as a valid mode of storytelling just because one of the characters is higher-ranked than the others within the world.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I'm curious why "many people" find within themselves the impulse to deny what's stated outright many times in the text and impose their own interpretations.

 

 

What is being denied? All we're pointing out is that this is perhaps the first true political mistake in Elayne's career as Queen. She is a young, impulsive and is not wizened by experience. It is very probable that she might make a geo-political decision that will either haunt her many years from now or sow the downfall of her descendants. Entire dynasties fell over much smaller trip ups.

 

Rand has made mistakes as a ruler. So has Egwene. Why is it so unfathomable to understand the notion that Elayne is fallible as well and might not have thought out the consequences of her actions when taking in the political ranks and power of the figures in play. If Perrin keeps Two Rivers and becomes a royal in the house of Saldaea or if Rand's children inherits the throne to Illian and Lordship over Two Rivers. Either way Elayne effectively put into a power a line that could very well in future ignore the regent of Andor without any consequence or legal retribution. A King can't command another King as the old adage goes.

 

There is nothing in the book which implies that her move was not a mistake. It certainly defies all logic and no sane diplomat would ever advise what she did, the gray ajah would probably slam their head into a wall, for it is simply opening the door to civil war and rebellion for generations to come in the context of a feudal world. But then again she is merely a 20 year old woman recently risen to power, she is not the rebirth of Bismarck.