Perrin's new station in Andor

[Grim]

from what i understand. the TR was given a special status as an independent province. still technically part of andor but set up as a sort of a retirement home fore the Dragon. Perrin is his (lord) steward, not necessarily his subject or sworn too rand. more than likely after rand dies the TR will be re-absorbed by andor. probably held by the boy born to elayne, the girl being the daughter-heir and becoming queen. Perrin will probably retire from his stewardship to Saldaea to become queen consort eventually. his marriage supersedes his birth. perrin is a subject of saldaea, he holds a job in andor, he can quit. he has every right to refuse an order from the queen of andor. he can't rebel he's not a subject.

 

Rand on the other hand is more of an emperor. kings are his subjects. he rules several kingdoms, while he is king of Illian. he holds tear, illian, chirien,and andor possibly arad domi by right of conquest. rand gave andor and Chirien to Elayne. she could never hold them if rand said no. allied with ghealdan through perrin. the borderlands by treaty. a king can't be a subject. husband/ally, but not a subject. Elayne can't order rand around and make it stick. she doesn't have the power to make him do anything. while he could rally his forces and take both crowns from her. bad ginger no cookie. he's a high lord given his own provence because he's savior of the world/get him out of public sight. he's the first and last say in the TR. so his formal titles are King of IllIan, chief of the aiel, high lord of the TR, not sure what his title is at the BT, sorta leader of sea folk. unoffical titles emperior of Chirien, tear, andor, arid domei, Mayene. prince consort of the queen of andor. probable allys if subject was pushed. Band of the red hand because of friendship with mat maybe seanchen. ghealdan from friendship with perrin maybe Saldaea. may have missed a few.

 

and lets not forget the king of england duke of normandy. look how that turned out. the french almost lost the hundred years war.

[randsc]

The Saldaean link is the only worrisome one at the moment. Ghealdan is a failed state at this point in the story, and if Perrin or his heir invoked its aid in an attack on Andor the great houses would rally to Elayne to annex it.

 

While what you say is correct, it's not the point we're making. With the conflict of interest, if a request came from ANDOR towards Ghealdan that Alliandre refuses, Elayne can just order Perrin to order her.

 

She can basically order the Ghealdan army (with Perrin as liegelord, you really think it'll stay a broken state?) to defend Andor at the cost of Ghealdan itself, just by ordering Perrin to defend Andor with all his resources which includes Alliandre. If he refuses, it's treason.

 

Of course, her oath is to Perrin, so when either of them die, this problem will be gone. However, the issue of Saldaea remains (if he becomes King).

 

The cycle can turn though, I suppose - if he abdicates his stewardship in that case, to Mat. And the Band of the Red Hand will again protect the ruler of 'Manetheren'

 

That simply isn't how feudalism worked in our world, and we have been given no reason in the text to believe that it would work that way in Randland.

 

If France went to war with Austria, while the King of England was the Duke of Gascony or Normandy, would the King of France be able to order England to war with Austria?

 

Answer: No.

 

The most the Frnech King could count on would be levies from Gascony or Normandy. And as a practical matter, he would have to negotiate for those.

 

Just because you are someones lord in one contaxt does not mean you can command them in another context.

 

It works the other way, as well. Feudal lords owed thier liegemen protection. But in the example above, the French King would not be obligated to war due to a threat against England. Only a threat against Gascony or Normandy.

 

Elayne isn't ordering Ghealden about.

[Muad Cheade]

Which is why she should have 'given' The Two Rivers to The Dragon Reborn (say in a deep, booming voice), not Perrin. Morgase suggested Rand to be lord there, but they didn't go the whole way.

Rand is lord.

 

I mean, what lord or lady in Andor would have had a problem with her giving the Lord Dragon's land of... adolesence to him??

And what Two Rivers folk would have had a problem with Rand (well, once Perrin calmed them down a bit and made it clear he was still essentially in charge as steward)?

The nobles wouldn't have a problem with Rand being lord of the Two Rivers. Perrin is another matter. The Two Rivers people wouldn't seem to have a problem either way, but that's speculation.

 

What she has now, is potential for civil war because of the number of possible conflicting interests (let's just throw a Saldaean link in there too). Ignore the honest, 'good' leaders we have at the moment. Imagine when they die and a generation or three later the combined leadership DOESN'T get along? And as Elayne implies; yes they don't want the throne, their descendants might. But if they didn't belong to Andor, then the chances would be MUCH less (ignoring Rand's Andorian blood for a sec).

She actually negated the chance for a civil war. The fact remains that Perrin's line will still be vassals of the Queen of Andor. His line will most likely be King or Queen of Saldea and allied with Andor unless something there happened. Ghealdan will still be a vassal of the Steward of the Two Rivers unless Perrin dissolves it upon his death or they rebel against their liege. Elayne set it up so two separate individuals inherit the throne of Saldea and the "lordship" of the Two Rivers. The power is separated.

 

Throw in the fact that The Two Rivers are exempt from taxes and some of the other lords might start a rebellion too!

 

edit: I don't think Elayne is by any means stupid, I think she made a big mistake though.

The Two Rivers have been exempt from taxes for centuries. What's different? By this agreement, Elayne now has reasons as to why the Two Rivers remains taxfree as now they are Andor's most important province.

 

The Saldaean link is the only worrisome one at the moment. Ghealdan is a failed state at this point in the story, and if Perrin or his heir invoked its aid in an attack on Andor the great houses would rally to Elayne to annex it. Perrin's Wolf Guard is likely going to take heavy losses in Tarmon Gai'don, and even if it doesn't there is a huge question of whether it will follow him home (where? are they going to build a city?) afterwards, or if Perrin will remain ta'veren afterwards for that matter. Without the Saldaean army (what remains of it after Saldaea is nearly destroyed in TOM) Perrin could not hope to match Andor in battle.

Why would the nobles of Andor seek to annex one of their nation's allies? We have no reason to believe the Wolf Guard will do so. There is plenty of habitable land farmable land in that area. The Saldeans still have atleast 50,000 (most likely more) soldiers. Finally, why would Perrin fight Andor?

 

Frankly, the special tax status of the Two Rivers is more likely to cause political discontent than letting the place (never a core province of Andor) go.

The Two Rivers was always tax free. Now Elayne gave justification to that.

 

I have never seen anyone explain how exactly an independent Two Rivers would cause such anarchy. Virtually all of the nations of Randland are smaller than they once were. The world of tWoT is a world where humanity is in retreat. Realms grow smaller, vast lands lie fallow in the voids between nations. What's one more bit, a bit that hasn't truly been part of Andor in living memory?

It shows that any man can secede and declare himself lord/king as long as he has an army to enforce that. Can you see how that would be a problem? from what we have seen, it seems as if the opposite will be different fo the Fourth Age.

 

And how would it cause rebellion among the nobility of Andor? Frankly, if any of them had the power base that Perrin has, they WOULD rebel now. The only way to prevent Perrin's precedent from encouraging rebellion is to kill him.

Because if a commoner can declare himself lord/king, why can't he/she. Andor just went through a devastating civil war. Going through several would destroy it.

 

Of course, then the Dragon loses, the Dark One unravels the Pattern, and the world ceases to exist.

True. That's more likely to happen as things stand right now.

 

Elayne would be better off letting the Two Rivers go, tieing its ruling house up in dynastic marriages, and directing her nobles attention to new opportunities in Cairhein.

She did all of that except the first. This new agreement with Perrin and Alliandre even allows her to give the empty lands in that region to nobles and others.

 

That's the world of the Third Age. The Fourth Age is going to have an entirely different theme. Relying on a dying paradigm to justify his rebellion would be as dangerous for Perrin as relying on his ta'veren status, which will likely be revoked after the Last Battle.

Valid point.

 

You have absolutely no idea that either of those things is true.

 

And anyway, by your own logic, why would a "rebellion" in the LAST age have any impact (let alone cause anarchy) in the NEXT age?

Because the rebellion is not likely to happen during the Third Age as Tarmon Gai'din is occuring. If any rebellion were to occur, it would happen in the Fourth Age.

 

While what you say is correct, it's not the point we're making. With the conflict of interest, if a request came from ANDOR towards Ghealdan that Alliandre refuses, Elayne can just order Perrin to order her.

You are right although I believe Andor is formally in alliance with Ghealdan.

 

She can basically order the Ghealdan army (with Perrin as liegelord, you really think it'll stay a broken state?) to defend Andor at the cost of Ghealdan itself, just by ordering Perrin to defend Andor with all his resources which includes Alliandre. If he refuses, it's treason.

Correct.

 

Of course, her oath is to Perrin, so when either of them die, this problem will be gone. However, the issue of Saldaea remains (if he becomes King).

It seems likely that Ghealdan's vassalge will end on Perrin's death (or after Tarmon Gai'din) yet the alliance will remain. Perrin would never become ruler of Saldea. He would be the Prince Consort and Faile would be the Queen Regnant (the true ruler). Also, one of their children will be in line for the throne of Saldea, the other the Stewardship/Lordship of the Two Rivers so the power are separate.

 

The cycle can turn though, I suppose - if he abdicates his stewardship in that case, to Mat. And the Band of the Red Hand will again protect the ruler of 'Manetheren'

That would be something. The wheel would come full circle.

 

from what i understand. the TR was given a special status as an independent province. still technically part of andor but set up as a sort of a retirement home fore the Dragon. Perrin is his (lord) steward, not necessarily his subject or sworn too rand. more than likely after rand dies the TR will be re-absorbed by andor. probably held by the boy born to elayne, the girl being the daughter-heir and becoming queen. Perrin will probably retire from his stewardship to Saldaea to become queen consort eventually. his marriage supersedes his birth. perrin is a subject of saldaea, he holds a job in andor, he can quit. he has every right to refuse an order from the queen of andor. he can't rebel he's not a subject.

The Two Rivers is still part of Andor. Rand is Lord of that province. perrin is his Steward and Lord in Rand's absence. Perrin's line will continue to be Stewards unless he resigns from that position. As long as Perrin is still Steward, he cannot legally refuse an order from the Queen.

 

And Faile would be the Queen Regnant. Perrin, the Prince Consort.

 

Rand on the other hand is more of an emperor. kings are his subjects. he rules several kingdoms, while he is king of Illian.

I guess that's accurate, though in essence he only rules Illian, and he is overlord in Tear. His role in Arad Doman is not clear yet.

 

he holds tear, illian, chirien,and andor possibly arad domi by right of conquest. rand gave andor and Chirien to Elayne. she could never hold them if rand said no.

Andor was already Elayne's. By Rand saying he "was giving the throne to Elayne," he helped cause the civil war. In Cairhien, he did help Elayne, yet she already had a claim through her father. Just look in ToM how she claimed it nearly by herself (and with a little help from Birgitte's backside).

 

allied with ghealdan through perrin. the borderlands by treaty. a king can't be a subject. husband/ally, but not a subject.

Yes, they can. William the Conqueror was both King of England and Duke of Normandy, which made him a vassal of the King of France.

 

Elayne can't order rand around and make it stick. she doesn't have the power to make him do anything. while he could rally his forces and take both crowns from her.

On one level, Rand is her equal- as King of Illian etc. As Lord of the Two Rivers, he is her vassal just like William the Conqueror.

 

bad ginger no cookie.

Really?

 

he's a high lord given his own provence because he's savior of the world/get him out of public sight. he's the first and last say in the TR. so his formal titles are King of IllIan, chief of the aiel, high lord of the TR, not sure what his title is at the BT, sorta leader of sea folk. unoffical titles emperior of Chirien, tear, andor, arid domei, Mayene. prince consort of the queen of andor. probable allys if subject was pushed. Band of the red hand because of friendship with mat maybe seanchen. ghealdan from friendship with perrin maybe Saldaea. may have missed a few.

So the gist is that Rand has a lot of titles and roles?

 

and lets not forget the king of england duke of normandy. look how that turned out. the french almost lost the hundred years war.

Yet, legally William I was both the King of France's equal and subject, so there is historical precedence even though that ended badly.

 

That simply isn't how feudalism worked in our world, and we have been given no reason in the text to believe that it would work that way in Randland.

 

If France went to war with Austria, while the King of England was the Duke of Gascony or Normandy, would the King of France be able to order England to war with Austria?

 

Answer: No.

 

The most the Frnech King could count on would be levies from Gascony or Normandy. And as a practical matter, he would have to negotiate for those.

 

Just because you are someones lord in one contaxt does not mean you can command them in another context.

 

It works the other way, as well. Feudal lords owed thier liegemen protection. But in the example above, the French King would not be obligated to war due to a threat against England. Only a threat against Gascony or Normandy.

 

Elayne isn't ordering Ghealden about.

The King of France would be able to enlist the Duke of Normandy in that war, not the King of England, if that makes sense (unless they were in alliance). They are equals in once context and lord and liege in another.

 

Ghealdan would join any war Andor was engaged in because the Queen of Ghealdan is currently the liegewoman of a Lord of Andor and is in Alliance with Andor itself.

[Tollieman]

Thanks, I thought the 'chain of command' (so to speak) was straightforward black and white that way.

[moratcorlm]

Why would the nobles of Andor seek to annex one of their nation's allies? We have no reason to believe the Wolf Guard will do so. There is plenty of habitable land farmable land in that area. The Saldeans still have atleast 50,000 (most likely more) soldiers. Finally, why would Perrin fight Andor?

I have no idea. I'm replying to claims that Perrin's status as liege of Ghealdan creates some instability regarding the Griffin Pact.

Elayne isn't ordering Ghealden about.

Possibly not, but since Alliandre is queen of a thousand soldiers and not much else, not terribly interesting. And then there's this:

"So nothing changes," Faile said again. "Except that you gain a powerful province to the west. Perrin, as your ally and subject lord, will agree to marshal troops in your defense. He will also call up his sworn monarchs to

your allegiance."

Elayne glanced at Alliandre. She'd probably heard of Alliandre's swearing from Morgase, but also would want to hear it for herself.

"I swore fealty to Lord Perrin," Alliandre said. "Ghealdan had long lacked strong allies. I meant to change that."

"Yout Majesty," Faile said, leaning forward, tea cupped in her hands before her. "Perrin spent several weeks with some Seanchan officers. They

have created a great pact of nations allied beneath one banner. Rand al'Thor, though you may trust him as a friend, has done the same. Tear, Illian, and maybe now Arad Doman are beneath his rule. Nations join rather than split, these days. Andor looks smaller by the hour."

"That's why I did what I did," Alliandre said.

Well, in Faile's view, Alliandre had been caught up by Perrin as a ta'veren. There hadn't been much planning. But Alliandre might see it otherwise.

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

[Suttree]

Actually no. This raises several interesting points in itself. The Queen of Ghealdan swore to Perrin not as a noble of Andor, but because of his standing among the Dragon (Regent of Tear, Illian, Cairhien, etc..), his holdings in the Two Rivers and his personal Army. Liegeship does not work in the way you propose. The Queen of Ghealdan is loyal to Perrin and could care less what the Queen of Andor has to say. If Perrin would force the question of secession the Queen of Ghealdan would rally her forces against Andor in support of the Two Rivers.

 

Faile seems to think it does work in this way...

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

[Grim]

andor was not already elayne. rand conquered it from rivin(sp) he could have kept it or given it to someone else. he allowed a kingdom in the empire solve it's own problems as to who the queen was. Cairhien was given to her in much the same manner. she has power at his sufferance. and in feudalism one law holds true above all else. might makes right. he's the biggest dog in the yard except for maybe tuon and the borderland alliance. just because he doesn't act more heavy handed with those under his command doesn't mean he can't. the carrot usually works better than the stick when dealing with vassals. rand is an emperor with lands in a vassal land.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Actually no. This raises several interesting points in itself. The Queen of Ghealdan swore to Perrin not as a noble of Andor, but because of his standing among the Dragon (Regent of Tear, Illian, Cairhien, etc..), his holdings in the Two Rivers and his personal Army. Liegeship does not work in the way you propose. The Queen of Ghealdan is loyal to Perrin and could care less what the Queen of Andor has to say. If Perrin would force the question of secession the Queen of Ghealdan would rally her forces against Andor in support of the Two Rivers.

Alliandre, Queen of Ghealdan is Perrin's liegelady. Perrin is Elayne's liegeman. In the case of Elayne calling her banners, Perrin would marshal his forces (which would include Alliandre and possible Mayene). You are correct. If Perrin were to rebel against Elayne, Ghealdan would support him.

 

Not to mention there is a certain difficulty in defining where Perrin stands. If he is the steward to the High Lord Rand, that means his superior is Rand and not Elayne. Also Rand eclipses Elayne in all matters of authority. Hell it was Rand who granted Elayne the right to rule by giving her both Andor and Cairhien as a gift per se. This raises the question that since Rand is superior in rank to Elayne by all custom and conduct how his lordship in Two Rivers cannot be considered autonomous from the throne of Andor if he does not sit on said throne. Since if Rand is lord of Two River and the Two Rivers are subservient to the crown of Andor this would mean all lands, holdings and rulings held by the Dragon would also be subservient to the crown of Andor. Which is simply ludicrous.

It means in Rand's absence, Perrin assumes his duty and is lord in his stead. If Rand returns, Perrin is subordinate to him and he is subordinate to the Queen. Rand did not have the right to "give the throne" to Elayne. That was one of the reasons there was a civil war. How is it ludicrous? It was Andor's land before the Dragon Reborn, and if Rand is a lord he has to be subservient to the Queen. That is how feudalism/clientism works.

 

Which is why I really am starting to believe that Elayne is nothing but a dumb blonde who is too stubborn for her own good. This foolheaded refusal to negotiate anything on terms of the Two Rivers is going to lead to so much suffering some day when all the political mistakes come back to haunt her successors in form of a bad civil war that will somewhat resemble the 30 years and 7 years war.

How? In ToM alone, she positioned her nation to be the most powerful after Tarmon Gai'din. She has free health-care and transportation from her agreement with the Kin, she has military security with the Band of the Red Hand and the dragons from her agreement with Mat and stability and new allies from her agreement with Perrin. Also, she just gained the throne of Cairhien. She has shown herself to be a shrewd ruler.

 

If Elayne had let Perrin secede, that would create anarchy.

1). Perrin rebelled. Simple fact. Yes, Andor was not there to help during the Trolloc attacks, but the fact remains.

2) If Perrin was given a carte blanch and allowed to form his own nation, that would allow any other person to secede from Andor and declare himself a lord or king as long as he had an army to back him.

 

 

 

Rand cannot be subservient to the throne of Andor. He is the ruling regent of several autonomous kingdoms/realms. Hence why declaring him a lord of a territory still part of Andor is questionable at best but still workable. However by then putting another noble family (Aybara) in charge of said lands it turns the entire thing into a political mess that makes Trianon look enlightened. It seems highly reminiscent of the Anglo-French question of succession which among other things sparked the hundred year war. The English King was also a Duke of Normandy [France] due to William I's conquest of England, etc.. Which is why in general feudalism if you had conflicting interests you renounced titles which could possibly conflict.

 

Also as you shrewdly deduced, yes Ghealdan rides where Aybara commands. If Aybara chooses to hearken to Caemlyn's call of arms then so will Ghealdan. However the problem lies with power balance, this entire situation leaves the Two Rivers in much too strong of a position for any regent to comfortably rule. You have a large tax-free region with it's own army (common enough for a noble), who is potentially also able to muster the forces of Saldaea and Ghealdan. House Aybara probably wouldn't even need to rally other Andoran houses to oust any ruler or declare independence.

 

What do you mean it wasn't Rand's to give? He gave it to her regardless of legal precedent. He established a firm rule over Caemlyn by ousting Lord Gaebril and then he presented her the City and the Kingdom. That is the very definition of giving. Elayne did not earn her Kingdom by any mean feats, she was granted Andor by grace of the Dragon. Much in the same way that Cairhien is being granted to her. It is advantageous to be carrying the offspring of the most powerful conqueror on the continent.

 

That is nonsense. Since Two Rivers never payed taxes or even received the Queen's protection. Thereby Caemlyn itself treated it as if it were not part of the realm. These are more than enough justifications for a secession. I don't think you can name me any other Andoran territories which are ignored by tax collectors and are also refused protection from foreign invaders.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Actually no. This raises several interesting points in itself. The Queen of Ghealdan swore to Perrin not as a noble of Andor, but because of his standing among the Dragon (Regent of Tear, Illian, Cairhien, etc..), his holdings in the Two Rivers and his personal Army. Liegeship does not work in the way you propose. The Queen of Ghealdan is loyal to Perrin and could care less what the Queen of Andor has to say. If Perrin would force the question of secession the Queen of Ghealdan would rally her forces against Andor in support of the Two Rivers.

 

Faile seems to think it does work in this way...

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Not quite. This is the case of Perrin adheres to any summons from Elayne. This is merely going by the assumption that Perrin won't rebuff Elayne or stand against her on a matter. However if Perrin would choose to ignore or set himself against Elayne, then Saldaea and Ghealdan would stand with Perrin against Elayne. Since Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara and Ghealdan musters when Aybara calls and not when Caemlyn calls.

[moratcorlm]

Ghealdan was destroyed by Logain and then Masema; if Alliandre's writ extends beyond the thousand lancers Arganda brought with her, I'd be very surprised. Saldaea is currently being destroyed by Shadowspawn, and even more thoroughly; it will take generations to recover. Nor indeed is the Two Rivers a large region; it comprises three small villages (a fourth having been destroyed in TSR) and an indeterminate but fairly small number of refugees. Perrin's military power consists in his ta'veren pull managing to wrangle up able-bodied people and make them fighters at a drastically accelerated pace, for the Last Battle that's currently happening. Without those 100,000 troops, Perrin doesn't have the slightest chance of facing Andor. And since he hasn't expressed the slightest desire to, more importantly neither do his heirs.

 

Your points on justification have been debated ad nauseum in the Elayne's arc thread.

[AvroChris]

Have they actually sworn to this or have they agreed in principle? I can't quite remember, but this is all based on Rand actually agreeing to the arrangement in the first place. He might just say, this is a daft arrangement, why should the Dragon Reborn swear to anyone? And then they'll have to think of something else

I can certainly see him residing in the Andor after the Last Battle, and he does have a claim to Tigraine's estates, but if he says no to this then they'll have to start over. I'd also agree that it would cause more trouble to the nobles than just giving the damn place away, but with various treaties and links of marriage to keep the Two Rivers under Andoran influence.

"Oh, we've given away a fairly obscure area of land that we gave up on ages ago" vs "we're hanging on to this area and making it's leader stand above you, he's going to be tax exempt, and by the way they have a claim to the throne of Saldae." I can't see any of the nobles being too happy with that, really.

[Mr Ares]

Perrin will probably retire from his stewardship to Saldaea to become queen consort eventually. his marriage supersedes his birth. perrin is a subject of saldaea, he holds a job in andor, he can quit. he has every right to refuse an order from the queen of andor. he can't rebel he's not a subject.

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change. But Perrin is a subject of Andor, he has sworn fealty to Elayne. Unless and until he does quite his job as Steward of the TR, he is still Elayne's liegeman, and has to come when she calls.

 

Rand on the other hand is more of an emperor. kings are his subjects. he rules several kingdoms, while he is king of Illian. he holds tear, illian, chirien,and andor possibly arad domi by right of conquest.

No. Rand came to Andor not as a conqueror, but as a liberator. Andor was never his. He removed Rahvin from power, but his own "rule" there was purely stop gap measure - he was acting as regent in Elayne's absence. Part of the problem was his "giving" the throne to Elayne, which was badly worded on his part - he never challenged that the Trakands were lawful rulers of Andor, nor did he state his own supremacy in those lands, quite the reverse. Further, he ceded Cairhien to Elayne. Thuse he no longer has it. She rules neither of those lands as a subject of the Dragon Empire, she is not a vassal. Steward of the Lord Dragon has never been put among her titles, as it was among Darlin's and Gregorin's. Rand has Tear and Illian. He is chief of chiefs of the Aiel, Coramoor of the Sea Folk. His precise status with regards to Arad Doman and the Borderlands is a little more ambiguous - are these people his allies or vassals? Mayene is an ally, as are Andor and Cairhien. While it is true if Elayne couldn't hold those territories if Rand tried to take them, that says nothing about his lawful claims and everything about his power. Andor couldn't hope to stand against millions of soldiers and thousands of channelers. But while he could take Andor, he never did. While he did take Cairhien, he subsequently gave it away. And a king can most definitely be a subject.

so his formal titles are King of IllIan, chief of the aiel, high lord of the TR, not sure what his title is at the BT, sorta leader of sea folk. unoffical titles emperior of Chirien, tear, andor, arid domei, Mayene. prince consort of the queen of andor. probable allys if subject was pushed. Band of the red hand because of friendship with mat maybe seanchen. ghealdan from friendship with perrin maybe Saldaea.

Rand is (counting both formal and informal titles) King of Illian, Overlord of Tear, Chief of chiefs of the Aiel, Lord of the Morning, Lord Dragon, head of the BT, Coramoor of the Sea Folk. He is not Prince of Andor, and won't be until he marries Elayne (and even then, it depends. In Britain, the marriage alone would give him no formal title, he would have to be granted one, although Andor is probably different as they are used to having Queens). He doesn't have Cairhien or Andor, Mayene was never one of his conquests, the Band is Mat's, and Mat is now Elayne's. He doesn't have the Seanchan, they remain his enemies. Not sure about AD or the Borderlands, they could be considered vassals or allies.

 

Of course, her oath is to Perrin, so when either of them die, this problem will be gone. However, the issue of Saldaea remains (if he becomes King).

It seems likely that Ghealdan's vassalge will end on Perrin's death (or after Tarmon Gai'din) yet the alliance will remain. Perrin would never become ruler of Saldea. He would be the Prince Consort and Faile would be the Queen Regnant (the true ruler). Also, one of their children will be in line for the throne of Saldea, the other the Stewardship/Lordship of the Two Rivers so the power are separate.

I would direct your attention to the glossary of ToM, the entry for Saldaea, which states that the husband/wife of the monarch of saldaea is not merely a consort, but an almost co-equal ruler. The line of succession would go through her, not him, and her death before him would thus mean a new ruler, whereas if he predeceases her it should mean she then rules alone. As for titles, here in the UK a wife holds her husband's title, but a husband doesn't hold his wife's. Thus if a man holds a title, it is his own, one he has been granted, not gained automatically upon marriage. Potentially, the husband of a ruling Queen could be styled King (indeed, Mary I's husband was, but he was King of Spain anyway). However, WoT nations do not need these same rules. Just because the husband of a British Queen is not generally styled King, doesn't mean that the husband of a Saldaean Queen wouldn't be King - especially as his own ruler. Therefore it is very likely Perrin will be King of Saldaea.

 

That said, i agree with you on the matter of Ghealdan's vassalage ending upon Perrin's death. If we look at the situation in that light, Elayne's decision doesn't look quite so dire: Perrin has sworn to Elayne, therefore it would require him, a man of honour, going back on his word for serious conflict to develop between Andor and the TR. After his death, Ghealdan will be allied to Andor, but not subservient to Perrin's line. Saldaea's ruler and the TR's Steward will be different people. Therefore, the problem represented by Perrin being an exceedingly powerful vassal is a relatively short term one - his lifetime only. After that, Elayne will have the TR brought into line (with its rulership passed to her child after Rand's death), Ghealdan, Saldaea and Mayene as allies, and a union of the thrones with Cairhien. This is a potential problem for only one generation, at most - at major problems will not necessarily arise.

[Tollieman]

I haven't seen Perrin swear to Elayne. Doesn't the steward swear to his Lord, and Lord swear to the throne?

 

Secondly, if Faile gains the Saldaean crown, I'm pretty sure she'd cede at LEAST equal rule to Perrin.

 

The issues brought up were these; can Elayne order Perrin (through Rand) to order Ghealdan to do something they don't want to do? If yes, then this whole situation is a mess, because he could refuse and be accused of treason.

 

It's got nothing to do with Ghealdan taking the initiative, because then Perrin would probably let Alliandre and Elayne bash it out (verbally), only stepping in if it got too stupid. He'd still have to choose a side, telling Alliandre to back down or tell Elayne he's not on her side in the debate. Either way, he loses somehow.

 

If Elayne CANNOT order Ghealdan through Perrin, then there's no issue. However, again there'd still be issues because of massive conflict of interests.

 

And we cannot use Perrin's lifespan as a reason why this issue (if Andor can 'order' Ghealdan) isn't an issue. The guy's what, 22? Being reasonable, he's got at least another 50 years to go, Alliandre not that much older. A lot can happen.

 

(this is again, assuming the FOL win and none of these characters die).

 

I maintain; She should have looked at giving the land to the Dragon Reborn with Perrin as steward, as first option. Then looked for alternatives if Rand said no.

[randsc]

I haven't seen Perrin swear to Elayne. Doesn't the steward swear to his Lord, and Lord swear to the throne?

 

Secondly, if Faile gains the Saldaean crown, I'm pretty sure she'd cede at LEAST equal rule to Perrin.

 

The issues brought up were these; can Elayne order Perrin (through Rand) to order Ghealdan to do something they don't want to do? If yes, then this whole situation is a mess, because he could refuse and be accused of treason.

 

It's got nothing to do with Ghealdan taking the initiative, because then Perrin would probably let Alliandre and Elayne bash it out (verbally), only stepping in if it got too stupid. He'd still have to choose a side, telling Alliandre to back down or tell Elayne he's not on her side in the debate. Either way, he loses somehow.

 

If Elayne CANNOT order Ghealdan through Perrin, then there's no issue. However, again there'd still be issues because of massive conflict of interests.

 

And we cannot use Perrin's lifespan as a reason why this issue (if Andor can 'order' Ghealdan) isn't an issue. The guy's what, 22? Being reasonable, he's got at least another 50 years to go, Alliandre not that much older. A lot can happen.

 

(this is again, assuming the FOL win and none of these characters die).

 

I maintain; She should have looked at giving the land to the Dragon Reborn with Perrin as steward, as first option. Then looked for alternatives if Rand said no.

 

What's really sad about the whole thing is the Two Rivers giving up a functioning representative democracy for rule by ANY lord. They're regressing.

 

In fact, Andor as a whole is regressing toward a despotic monarchy. We are shown Elayne gaining greater control at the expense of her nobles, and those nobles gaining greater control at the expense of their tenants.

 

It's as if you are starting with Briatin now, and working backward until you tear up the Magna Carta.

 

Forgive me for not being thrilled by this development.

[Suttree]

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Not quite. This is the case of Perrin adheres to any summons from Elayne. This is merely going by the assumption that Perrin won't rebuff Elayne or stand against her on a matter. However if Perrin would choose to ignore or set himself against Elayne, then Saldaea and Ghealdan would stand with Perrin against Elayne. Since Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara and Ghealdan musters when Aybara calls and not when Caemlyn calls.

 

and that would be rebellion, always a possibility I guess but highly unlikely in this case. The point is Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara, Aybara's is with Elayne. You can come up with "what if" scenarios all you like but short of rebellion, Ghealdan comes when Andor calls.

 

What do you mean it wasn't Rand's to give? He gave it to her regardless of legal precedent. He established a firm rule over Caemlyn by ousting Lord Gaebril and then he presented her the City and the Kingdom. That is the very definition of giving. Elayne did not earn her Kingdom by any mean feats, she was granted Andor by grace of the Dragon. Much in the same way that Cairhien is being granted to her. It is advantageous to be carrying the offspring of the most powerful conqueror on the continent.

 

It wasn't Rand's to give at all. In fact its stated in the story numerous times how much of a disaster that would have been. The Dragon never claimed Andor, he was just acting regent. If only what you say in bold above was true, we could have been spared the whole Succession storyline which is where Elayne gained the throne.

[chinnma]

Damn, medival politics is confusing as hell. Not suprised there was so much civil war.

[Muad Cheade]

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

Haha.

 

I would direct your attention to the glossary of ToM, the entry for Saldaea, which states that the husband/wife of the monarch of saldaea is not merely a consort, but an almost co-equal ruler. The line of succession would go through her, not him, and her death before him would thus mean a new ruler, whereas if he predeceases her it should mean she then rules alone. As for titles, here in the UK a wife holds her husband's title, but a husband doesn't hold his wife's. Thus if a man holds a title, it is his own, one he has been granted, not gained automatically upon marriage. Potentially, the husband of a ruling Queen could be styled King (indeed, Mary I's husband was, but he was King of Spain anyway). However, WoT nations do not need these same rules. Just because the husband of a British Queen is not generally styled King, doesn't mean that the husband of a Saldaean Queen wouldn't be King - especially as his own ruler. Therefore it is very likely Perrin will be King of Saldaea.

Just checked. You're right. That makes the decision to split the titles among their children a much wiser decision.

 

Secondly, if Faile gains the Saldaean crown, I'm pretty sure she'd cede at LEAST equal rule to Perrin.

According to the ToM glossary, Perrin, as king and co-ruler, would have nearly equal power as Faile.

 

The issues brought up were these; can Elayne order Perrin (through Rand) to order Ghealdan to do something they don't want to do? If yes, then this whole situation is a mess, because he could refuse and be accused of treason.

Ghealdan is Perrin's vassal. She does not need to go through Rand. Ghealdan as vassal theoretically cannot refuse Perrin. That is treason just as Perrin refusing Elayne is treason.

 

It's got nothing to do with Ghealdan taking the initiative, because then Perrin would probably let Alliandre and Elayne bash it out (verbally), only stepping in if it got too stupid. He'd still have to choose a side, telling Alliandre to back down or tell Elayne he's not on her side in the debate. Either way, he loses somehow.

Perrin is automatically on Andor's side (liegeman of Elayne) and Ghealdan is on Perrin's (Alliandre is his liegewoman) and Andor (the two nations are in alliance) if that makes sense.

 

If Elayne CANNOT order Ghealdan through Perrin, then there's no issue. However, again there'd still be issues because of massive conflict of interests.

If Elayne calls her banners, that would include Perrin who in turn can call those of Ghealdan. However, Andor is in alliance with Ghealdan so once ANdor marshaled for wa Ghealdan would do so of it's own accord.

 

And we cannot use Perrin's lifespan as a reason why this issue (if Andor can 'order' Ghealdan) isn't an issue. The guy's what, 22? Being reasonable, he's got at least another 50 years to go, Alliandre not that much older. A lot can happen.

Actually, it seems that Elayne and Aviendha might die between then as they were gone in Aviendha's vision. The fact that Perrin wasn't named Lord of the Two Rivers implies he either passed, is gone, is king of Saldea and his child is Steward or one of Elayne's children rules there.

 

I maintain; She should have looked at giving the land to the Dragon Reborn with Perrin as steward, as first option. Then looked for alternatives if Rand said no.

That is what she did. And actually, I think one of her children would be Lord of the Two Rivers as they are Rand's heirs.

 

What's really sad about the whole thing is the Two Rivers giving up a functioning representative democracy for rule by ANY lord. They're regressing.

 

In fact, Andor as a whole is regressing toward a despotic monarchy. We are shown Elayne gaining greater control at the expense of her nobles, and those nobles gaining greater control at the expense of their tenants.

 

It's as if you are starting with Briatin now, and working backward until you tear up the Magna Carta.

 

Forgive me for not being thrilled by this development.

Actually, Andor is moving towards an Absolute Monarchy which makes sense as that follows what happened in our history.

[Orderofolde]

My understanding was that she ceded the Two Rivers to Rand and then it would be up to rand to make Perrin the Steward. The Two Rivers would no longer be part of Andor.

 

I recall someone saying to her that she would be the first queen to cede part of Andor in a long time. At least I think that was part of that scene and not a scene about the black tower.

 

-Cap

That was the 1 square mile of land along the river she ceeded to the Seafolk for their windfinders.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Not quite. This is the case of Perrin adheres to any summons from Elayne. This is merely going by the assumption that Perrin won't rebuff Elayne or stand against her on a matter. However if Perrin would choose to ignore or set himself against Elayne, then Saldaea and Ghealdan would stand with Perrin against Elayne. Since Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara and Ghealdan musters when Aybara calls and not when Caemlyn calls.

 

and that would be rebellion, always a possibility I guess but highly unlikely in this case. The point is Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara, Aybara's is with Elayne. You can come up with "what if" scenarios all you like but short of rebellion, Ghealdan comes when Andor calls.

 

What do you mean it wasn't Rand's to give? He gave it to her regardless of legal precedent. He established a firm rule over Caemlyn by ousting Lord Gaebril and then he presented her the City and the Kingdom. That is the very definition of giving. Elayne did not earn her Kingdom by any mean feats, she was granted Andor by grace of the Dragon. Much in the same way that Cairhien is being granted to her. It is advantageous to be carrying the offspring of the most powerful conqueror on the continent.

 

It wasn't Rand's to give at all. In fact its stated in the story numerous times how much of a disaster that would have been. The Dragon never claimed Andor, he was just acting regent. If only what you say in bold above was true, we could have been spared the whole Succession storyline which is where Elayne gained the throne.

 

 

Think it a bit further along. If Faile assumes regency in Saldaea it would mean that due to Saldaean custom Perrin would assume a co-regency. Elayne has no right to command the King of Saldaea for anything. It is not rebellion if he refuses to send arms either from Ghealdan, Saldaea or his holdings in Two Rivers. It is the same reason why the King of France could not command the King of England (also Duke of Normandy and Count of Aquitaine) to muster soldiers for his campaigns.

 

The above is true. The throne was granted and Elayne accepted it. Some nobles took issue, however Elayne stubborn and dumb as she is opted to stretch out the misery by refusing to cooperate or accept the help of the local elements of the Dragon's military to suppress the rebellion. This lead to a prolonged siege and all around misery for many commoners, simply so Elayne could mend her bruised ego and delude herself a bit at not being granted a throne.

 

House Trakand was ousted due to how unpopular Morgase made herself out to be. It's quite clear that Elayne rules solely thanks to her standing with the Dragon. The Dragon murdered Lord Gaebril, conquered Andor, established his rule over the land (the creation of the BT alone shows his having been ruler over the land) and eventually gave her the city as a gift.

[randsc]

 

What's really sad about the whole thing is the Two Rivers giving up a functioning representative democracy for rule by ANY lord. They're regressing.

 

In fact, Andor as a whole is regressing toward a despotic monarchy. We are shown Elayne gaining greater control at the expense of her nobles, and those nobles gaining greater control at the expense of their tenants.

 

It's as if you are starting with Briatin now, and working backward until you tear up the Magna Carta.

 

Forgive me for not being thrilled by this development.

Actually, Andor is moving towards an Absolute Monarchy which makes sense as that follows what happened in our history.

 

I disagree. In an absolute monarchy on the late medieval model, the nobility lost power and privileges to the throne, but the common people did not lose power and privileges to the nobility.

 

What we have here is commoners losing democratic rights to an hereditary nobility, while the nobles are in turn losing rights to a centralizing monarch. IMO, that puts us more in the realm of the despotic monarchies of antiquity than in an absolute monarchy as that term is usually understood.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

Haha.

 

I would direct your attention to the glossary of ToM, the entry for Saldaea, which states that the husband/wife of the monarch of saldaea is not merely a consort, but an almost co-equal ruler. The line of succession would go through her, not him, and her death before him would thus mean a new ruler, whereas if he predeceases her it should mean she then rules alone. As for titles, here in the UK a wife holds her husband's title, but a husband doesn't hold his wife's. Thus if a man holds a title, it is his own, one he has been granted, not gained automatically upon marriage. Potentially, the husband of a ruling Queen could be styled King (indeed, Mary I's husband was, but he was King of Spain anyway). However, WoT nations do not need these same rules. Just because the husband of a British Queen is not generally styled King, doesn't mean that the husband of a Saldaean Queen wouldn't be King - especially as his own ruler. Therefore it is very likely Perrin will be King of Saldaea.

Just checked. You're right. That makes the decision to split the titles among their children a much wiser decision.

 

Secondly, if Faile gains the Saldaean crown, I'm pretty sure she'd cede at LEAST equal rule to Perrin.

According to the ToM glossary, Perrin, as king and co-ruler, would have nearly equal power as Faile.

 

The issues brought up were these; can Elayne order Perrin (through Rand) to order Ghealdan to do something they don't want to do? If yes, then this whole situation is a mess, because he could refuse and be accused of treason.

Ghealdan is Perrin's vassal. She does not need to go through Rand. Ghealdan as vassal theoretically cannot refuse Perrin. That is treason just as Perrin refusing Elayne is treason.

 

It's got nothing to do with Ghealdan taking the initiative, because then Perrin would probably let Alliandre and Elayne bash it out (verbally), only stepping in if it got too stupid. He'd still have to choose a side, telling Alliandre to back down or tell Elayne he's not on her side in the debate. Either way, he loses somehow.

Perrin is automatically on Andor's side (liegeman of Elayne) and Ghealdan is on Perrin's (Alliandre is his liegewoman) and Andor (the two nations are in alliance) if that makes sense.

 

If Elayne CANNOT order Ghealdan through Perrin, then there's no issue. However, again there'd still be issues because of massive conflict of interests.

If Elayne calls her banners, that would include Perrin who in turn can call those of Ghealdan. However, Andor is in alliance with Ghealdan so once ANdor marshaled for wa Ghealdan would do so of it's own accord.

 

And we cannot use Perrin's lifespan as a reason why this issue (if Andor can 'order' Ghealdan) isn't an issue. The guy's what, 22? Being reasonable, he's got at least another 50 years to go, Alliandre not that much older. A lot can happen.

Actually, it seems that Elayne and Aviendha might die between then as they were gone in Aviendha's vision. The fact that Perrin wasn't named Lord of the Two Rivers implies he either passed, is gone, is king of Saldea and his child is Steward or one of Elayne's children rules there.

 

I maintain; She should have looked at giving the land to the Dragon Reborn with Perrin as steward, as first option. Then looked for alternatives if Rand said no.

That is what she did. And actually, I think one of her children would be Lord of the Two Rivers as they are Rand's heirs.

 

What's really sad about the whole thing is the Two Rivers giving up a functioning representative democracy for rule by ANY lord. They're regressing.

 

In fact, Andor as a whole is regressing toward a despotic monarchy. We are shown Elayne gaining greater control at the expense of her nobles, and those nobles gaining greater control at the expense of their tenants.

 

It's as if you are starting with Briatin now, and working backward until you tear up the Magna Carta.

 

Forgive me for not being thrilled by this development.

Actually, Andor is moving towards an Absolute Monarchy which makes sense as that follows what happened in our history.

 

 

So after the Two Rivers was fomenting outright rebellion against Elayne which was only simmered down by Perrin's prudence, the plan is to have one of Elayne's children become lord of Two Rivers? I see that working real well and being entirely realistic,...

 

How is it treason? If Perrin and Faile assume regency in Saldaea which is a legitimate fear considering the childless nature of the current Queen, it would establish them as King and Queen foremost. Elayne cannot command the King of Saldaea to muster arms on her behalf anymore than the King of France could force the English King to muster forces in Aquitaine or Normandy. It's simply not how things work, nor is it treason for one Regent to not come to arms for another Regent.

 

In nobility you are always labelled and distinguished by your most senior title. I am sure you don't disagree that King of Saldaea outranks Steward to the Lord of Two Rivers? As Queen of Andor Elayne can scream her face blue and Perrin won't have to come to arms if he chooses not to, or more accurately knowing the relationship/marriage Faile decides not to.

 

Of course Elayne could then insist that Perrin abdicate the Stewardship or in most historical cases the lesser title was relinquished. But the entire purpose of it all was because of the rebellious nature and insurrectionist atmosphere in Two Rivers that Perrin was even made ruler. Elayne feared she might lose the region entirely if she pressed Perrins self-appointed role in the region. The place is hanging on a thin enough string with enough contempt for the royal house in Caemlyn as is. I am sure forcing Perrin to give up lordship there to prevent conflict if he assumes a title in Saldaea will go down real well with the locals who are probably of more mind to just declare secession to Saldaea than they are to accept Caemlyn rule.

 

On an even more convoluted note to show how stupid this entire thing is. Should Two Rivers rebel and Elayne as she threatened send a military force to brutally crush/suppress the rebellion. I am sure it would more than strain the relationships to her largest neighbor considering the Prince of Ravens was born in said region and still possesses family there who might be killed by Andoran forces.

[AvroChris]

 

The above is true. The throne was granted and Elayne accepted it. Some nobles took issue, however Elayne stubborn and dumb as she is opted to stretch out the misery by refusing to cooperate or accept the help of the local elements of the Dragon's military to suppress the rebellion. This lead to a prolonged siege and all around misery for many commoners, simply so Elayne could mend her bruised ego and delude herself a bit at not being granted a throne.

 

House Trakand was ousted due to how unpopular Morgase made herself out to be. It's quite clear that Elayne rules solely thanks to her standing with the Dragon. The Dragon murdered Lord Gaebril, conquered Andor, established his rule over the land (the creation of the BT alone shows his having been ruler over the land) and eventually gave her the city as a gift.

 

Is it clear? Funny that, I thought she had to talk a lot of nobles into backing her for the Throne and fight a war. Rand said that as far as he was concerned, the Throne was Elayne's because that was the rule of succession. She didn't fight the siege to mend her ego, she fought it because that was the way succession works in Andor. You have to have the backing of the nobles to be Queen, and it was certainly never stated that Rand influenced the nobles into swearing for her, beyond making his opinion known.

As to Cairhien, she was handed that on a plate.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

 

The above is true. The throne was granted and Elayne accepted it. Some nobles took issue, however Elayne stubborn and dumb as she is opted to stretch out the misery by refusing to cooperate or accept the help of the local elements of the Dragon's military to suppress the rebellion. This lead to a prolonged siege and all around misery for many commoners, simply so Elayne could mend her bruised ego and delude herself a bit at not being granted a throne.

 

House Trakand was ousted due to how unpopular Morgase made herself out to be. It's quite clear that Elayne rules solely thanks to her standing with the Dragon. The Dragon murdered Lord Gaebril, conquered Andor, established his rule over the land (the creation of the BT alone shows his having been ruler over the land) and eventually gave her the city as a gift.

 

Is it clear? Funny that, I thought she had to talk a lot of nobles into backing her for the Throne and fight a war. Rand said that as far as he was concerned, the Throne was Elayne's because that was the rule of succession. She didn't fight the siege to mend her ego, she fought it because that was the way succession works in Andor. You have to have the backing of the nobles to be Queen, and it was certainly never stated that Rand influenced the nobles into swearing for her, beyond making his opinion known.

As to Cairhien, she was handed that on a plate.

 

 

You don't need the backing of the nobles when you possess an entire Aiel army and Dragon legion at your disposal at your city gates, which you foolishly opt not to use. Furthermore support of the nobles by defeating them with mercenaries is doubtfully a better way to legitemize your rule then simply stating "the Dragon reborn wishes it so," and then proceed to enforce rule with his men.

[Suttree]

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Not quite. This is the case of Perrin adheres to any summons from Elayne. This is merely going by the assumption that Perrin won't rebuff Elayne or stand against her on a matter. However if Perrin would choose to ignore or set himself against Elayne, then Saldaea and Ghealdan would stand with Perrin against Elayne. Since Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara and Ghealdan musters when Aybara calls and not when Caemlyn calls.

 

and that would be rebellion, always a possibility I guess but highly unlikely in this case. The point is Ghealdan's liegeship is with House Aybara, Aybara's is with Elayne. You can come up with "what if" scenarios all you like but short of rebellion, Ghealdan comes when Andor calls.

 

What do you mean it wasn't Rand's to give? He gave it to her regardless of legal precedent. He established a firm rule over Caemlyn by ousting Lord Gaebril and then he presented her the City and the Kingdom. That is the very definition of giving. Elayne did not earn her Kingdom by any mean feats, she was granted Andor by grace of the Dragon. Much in the same way that Cairhien is being granted to her. It is advantageous to be carrying the offspring of the most powerful conqueror on the continent.

 

It wasn't Rand's to give at all. In fact its stated in the story numerous times how much of a disaster that would have been. The Dragon never claimed Andor, he was just acting regent. If only what you say in bold above was true, we could have been spared the whole Succession storyline which is where Elayne gained the throne.

 

The above is true. The throne was granted and Elayne accepted it. Some nobles took issue, however Elayne stubborn and dumb as she is opted to stretch out the misery by refusing to cooperate or accept the help of the local elements of the Dragon's military to suppress the rebellion. This lead to a prolonged siege and all around misery for many commoners, simply so Elayne could mend her bruised ego and delude herself a bit at not being granted a throne.

 

House Trakand was ousted due to how unpopular Morgase made herself out to be. It's quite clear that Elayne rules solely thanks to her standing with the Dragon. The Dragon murdered Lord Gaebril, conquered Andor, established his rule over the land (the creation of the BT alone shows his having been ruler over the land) and eventually gave her the city as a gift.

 

Well the the books read otherwise but feel free to believe what you will

 

TPoD Ch28

“You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

 

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

[randsc]

LOL. Yeah, Elayne claimed the throne in her own right.

 

After Rand rescued it from a Foresaken, and the Aeil restored order.

 

But no, she certainly did it all on her own, by walking into an unguarded palace and saying so.

 

The most unconscionable thing Elayne did, in the whole series, was subject her people to unnecessary months of war so that she could say that she wasn't accepting Andor from Rand.