A thought on the Dark One and the Forsaken

[theradave]

So, in the Gathering Storm we have it laid plain by Moridin that the DO wants to win not to rule to world, but to destroy it, and the pattern along with it. In earlier books (I cannot recall in which) we learn that bale fire unravels the pattern, and its extensive use threatens all existence. We also know that the DO is outside the pattern, and therefore presumably not threatened by bale fire, or the destruction of the pattern.

 

So, my question is: why didn't (or doesn't) the DO command the Forsaken or the Black Ajah members to start using bale fire in mass amounts? Wouldn't that accomplish his stated (presumed) goal?

 

What do you think?

 

Personally, I think the fact this action has not been taken points to one of my first three statements being untrue (or, put another way a case of relying on what you think, not what you know). Since it was direct experience that discovered the threat bale fire poses to the pattern, I think that statement has the greatest chance of being true. Of the two assumptions remaining, I cannot decide which one (if it is only one) is more likely to be false.

[Sid]

Even the Forsaken (other than Moridin) are afraid of mass balefire's effects on the world. If the DO orders them to use it to the extent that the pattern will fall apart, then even they will see through his true motivations. They want to rule the world, not destroy reality.

 

It's like Moridin's game of sha'rah. Total destruction is one way to 'win', but the better way is to manipulate the Fisher (Rand/Champion of the Light) in a certain way to bring his ultimate victory. So IMO that's the direction in which the DO is directing his plans.

[threadnecromancer]

Even the Forsaken (other than Moridin) are afraid of mass balefire's effects on the world. If the DO orders them to use it to the extent that the pattern will fall apart, then even they will see through his true motivations. They want to rule the world, not destroy reality.

 

It's like Moridin's game of sha'rah. Total destruction is one way to 'win', but the better way is to manipulate the Fisher (Rand/Champion of the Light) in a certain way to bring his ultimate victory. So IMO that's the direction in which the DO is directing his plans.

 

But if that was all that it would take to free the Dark One, then why could he not simply say that he would protect them from the effects of the patterns collapse, and so insure that they were all safe and sound and would be made rulers of the world which he remade in his image?

[bysomy]

the DO is trapped, if the pattern is destroyed he is still trapped. his goal is to have Randlanders free him and then he will distroy the pattern.

[dokfeelg00d]

What I dont get is this. If the DO is trapped outside the pattern, then what does he gain by destroying it? It seems to me like he goes from a whole lotta nothing to another whole lotta nothing. I dont see his true motivation in this concept or else I am missing something completely. The forsaken are all roughly of the belief that being chosen Naeblis will grant them dominion over pretty much everything in the post TG world... One would think that if any of them knew the DO's true motives then they would stop caring and just do whatever they wanted (which I guess some of them do anyway).

 

Any ideas on this one?

[Jblaylock]

I know it is said the he does, but I do not believe the DO actualy wants to destroy the patern istelf, otherwise he would command them the balefire the sh*t out of everything. It'd be an easy victory. But, at the same time, the only reason the Forsaken went over to the darkside (if you will) to begin with was for the promise that they would rule in the DO's new world (so to speak). So... if the Forsaken truly believed that the DO wanted to destroy the world and the pattern, I doubt they would see any reason to serve the DO, since that goal would make their reward irellevant and impossible to gain. That leads me to believe that Moridin/Ishamael (whoever it was that said it) either lied or said in out of insanity.

[moratcorlm]

What I dont get is this. If the DO is trapped outside the pattern, then what does he gain by destroying it? It seems to me like he goes from a whole lotta nothing to another whole lotta nothing.

The traditional solution to that is that Shai'tan is trapped within the Pattern, i.e. that the Pattern itself is its prison, or is woven around the prison so as to strengthen the prison. It is outside the Pattern in the sense that it is not a part of the Pattern, but the Pattern curves around it in some way.

 

I agree with Sid about the original question; almost none of the Forsaken were suicidal.

[Mr Ares]

What I dont get is this. If the DO is trapped outside the pattern, then what does he gain by destroying it? It seems to me like he goes from a whole lotta nothing to another whole lotta nothing. I dont see his true motivation in this concept or else I am missing something completely.

It has to be remembered that Shai'tan isn't human, and His goals and desires are not necessarily things that a human would want. Essentially, it looks like He wants to destroy the Wheel because it's there. He doesn't go from nothing to nothing, he goes from "this exists out of my reach" to "this doesn't exist at all". The first is intolerable to a being RJ described as the "ur-control freak".

 

 

I know it is said the he does, but I do not believe the DO actualy wants to destroy the patern istelf, otherwise he would command them the balefire the sh*t out of everything.

But they don't want to destroy the world. And it is promised that He will remake the world, not that he will create a new one from scratch. They know there are limits to His power (else why would He be in prison?), so they are unlikely to want to risk killing themselves destroying the world when that denies them the power and immortality they desire.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

What I dont get is this. If the DO is trapped outside the pattern, then what does he gain by destroying it? It seems to me like he goes from a whole lotta nothing to another whole lotta nothing. I dont see his true motivation in this concept or else I am missing something completely.

 

It has to be remembered that Shai'tan isn't human, and His goals and desires are not necessarily things that a human would want. Essentially, it looks like He wants to destroy the Wheel because it's there. He doesn't go from nothing to nothing, he goes from "this exists out of my reach" to "this doesn't exist at all". The first is intolerable to a being RJ described as the "ur-control freak".

 

It doesn't matter to much if he destroys the world. He really juts wants freedom. Also I believe he could recreate the world anyway. The DO basically is chaos and or control personified. I'd agree with Mr Ares on this.

 

 

I know it is said the he does, but I do not believe the DO actualy wants to destroy the patern istelf, otherwise he would command them the balefire the sh*t out of everything.

But they don't want to destroy the world. And it is promised that He will remake the world, not that he will create a new one from scratch. They know there are limits to His power (else why would He be in prison?), so they are unlikely to want to risk killing themselves destroying the world when that denies them the power and immortality they desire.

 

 

Mr Ares

You are assuming the Forsaken would have a choice in obeying him. As we know the Dark One's vows are prerry strict. Furthermore I doubt he would tolerate such disobedience. As you said. 'Ur-control freak' Why would someone dig their own grave if someone has a gun pointed at them. Because they have no choice. Oblivion would be better than denying the dark one anyway if you've agreed to follow him.

 

I'd hypothesise maybe that Balefire is not completely permanent? After all people return to the pattern, reborn in a later age. RJ said this but i can't remember where.

 

Also As far as we know the Dark One only has the Forsaken, the Black Ajah and now members of the black tower. If he was going to do this he would've done it ages ago. During a previous cycle so it obviously didn't work.

 

Another possibility is that the Dark One does not have complete control over his people. It's a very hierarchical method of control. Greater DF answer to Chosen. Lesser DF to Greater Etc. So he can't really command these people what to do. Especially as until he doesn't have direct control over the world other than major things like the weather

[Mr Ares]

What I dont get is this. If the DO is trapped outside the pattern, then what does he gain by destroying it? It seems to me like he goes from a whole lotta nothing to another whole lotta nothing. I dont see his true motivation in this concept or else I am missing something completely.

 

It has to be remembered that Shai'tan isn't human, and His goals and desires are not necessarily things that a human would want. Essentially, it looks like He wants to destroy the Wheel because it's there. He doesn't go from nothing to nothing, he goes from "this exists out of my reach" to "this doesn't exist at all". The first is intolerable to a being RJ described as the "ur-control freak".

 

It doesn't matter to much if he destroys the world. He really juts wants freedom. Also I believe he could recreate the world anyway. The DO basically is chaos and or control personified. I'd agree with Mr Ares on this.

 

 

I know it is said the he does, but I do not believe the DO actualy wants to destroy the patern istelf, otherwise he would command them the balefire the sh*t out of everything.

But they don't want to destroy the world. And it is promised that He will remake the world, not that he will create a new one from scratch. They know there are limits to His power (else why would He be in prison?), so they are unlikely to want to risk killing themselves destroying the world when that denies them the power and immortality they desire.

 

 

Mr Ares

You are assuming the Forsaken would have a choice in obeying him. As we know the Dark One's vows are prerry strict. Furthermore I doubt he would tolerate such disobedience. As you said. 'Ur-control freak' Why would someone dig their own grave if someone has a gun pointed at them. Because they have no choice. Oblivion would be better than denying the dark one anyway if you've agreed to follow him.

But we've seen that they do have a choice in obeying Him. They retain their free will - hence the need for things like mindtraps. Why would you dig your own grave if held at gunpoint? Well, you might if you thought it would hold a chance for survival or would delay the inevitable. If they think it will hasten the inevitable, they won't do it - immortality is making the inevitable evitable. Shai'tan would turn His own armies against Him if he tried getting them to use balefire like that. Bad move.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

 

But we've seen that they do have a choice in obeying Him. They retain their free will - hence the need for things like mindtraps. Why would you dig your own grave if held at gunpoint? Well, you might if you thought it would hold a chance for survival or would delay the inevitable. If they think it will hasten the inevitable, they won't do it - immortality is making the inevitable evitable. Shai'tan would turn His own armies against Him if he tried getting them to use balefire like that. Bad move.

 

See bold above. It's delay because he won't kill them on the spot. Bssides they have enough fear of him to do what he wants. Also I think, but obviously don't know but if you have a gun pointed at you all rational thought would fly out the window. You last a second longer and that's what's important and so you listen to the nice man with the gun. Also they don't often act directly against his orders.

 

I doubt he'd want to use balefire anyway. Besides I don't think they could really have a chance to form an army against the Dark One. Unless there are DF unions I'm not aware of.

 

Besides compare the two. 1) Death, no pattern, nothing. Fairly peaceful.

2) Eternal torture at the hands of a really pissed off Dark One.

 

The death in this case is not equal.

[Agitel]

The Dark One's hold over his minions really only works while he can touch the Pattern. He needs willing minions. If he loses them then everyone unites and seals the Bore.

 

And, even with Elan's new thoughts on the matter, I still don't think we're getting the whole story. The Dark One seems fixated on Rand for some reason or another.

[OptimusPrime]

The Forsaken other than Moridin think the Dark One is going to remake the Pattern, not destroy it. Thats why they dont want to use balefire so much. They think theres still guna be a Pattern, just one woven by the Dark One.

 

The world is the Pattern is the prison. It means the Dark One is bound by a physical shackle. Seeing as he isnt a physical being he cant destroy it himself from outside it, he needs help from a physical instrument for that. Someone that can channel, so they can channel the True Power and erode the prisons focus points as in the Seals. When the Seals are broken, reality becomes thin enough for him to enter fully via a True Power user. Moridins been on the scene long enough to have made a difference. Now the Dark One is able to put a shadowy part of himself into the Pattern, in the form of Shaidar Haran. But as RJ said, even Shaidar possesses only a fraction of the Dark Ones power. To be able to use his power fully he must break free of the physical prison, and he can only do that himself by taking physical form, which the Seals have prevented with their Pattern focussing. When Rand breaks the Seals the Dark One will be able to force his way in, I think he will do this through Rand, and Rand dying during the process would mean part of the Dark One would die with him.

 

Thats how I see it.

[Agitel]

The Dark One wouldn't instantly be free if the seals broke, the world would go back to how it was before the seals were made. Things were bad, the Dark One could touch the world pretty heavily, but the Pattern still held together somewhat.

[mb]

The Dark One does have at least this limitation in regards with balefire:: Those victims he cannot resurrect.

 

My guess is that destroying the Pattern is the Dark One's last priority. Converting the Light's Champion I guess is his first; killing that person might be second.

[htarcan]

I think the answer is simple. The Dragon Reborn follows the prophecies to repeat them and win. We know the forsaken also follow the prophecies closely (in fact keeping as much of them out of others knowledge) to predict what will happen, so make the move before Althor does.

Balefire burns the pattern and if enough of the pattern is destroyed, the prophecies will not happen. That will make the forsaken blind about the future as much as the Dragon. I wouldn't prefer this one.