How To Fix Egwene

[ranjitb]

Wow.

 

Granted, I only lurk, but I didn't realize this many people disliked Eggy. I see her character growth as natural. She may be wrong about the seals, but she doesn't know what the 400 year old Grand Male Super Power Aes Sedai does.

 

And people hate her for it? Yes, she's bitchy, but she's in charge a a building full of women who think they know everything. Wouldn't you be?

 

So she requires her friends to toe the line. Have you ever had to be the boss of a friend? And pretty much the whole world is riding on her, so it's a little more important that say, delivering pizzas.

 

Thanks for reading. . . .

 

B.

 

The central conceit you are making is indeed what Egwene believes - "Pretty much the whole world is riding on her".

Which, like it or not, just isn't true.

 

As a 4th Wall/Reader you KNOW this. Egwene hasn't been empowered to save the world, RAND has, and therefore Egwene's actions throughout the series, which appear to accomplish little more than consolidate her own political power annoy a large fraction of the reader base.

 

And even if you decide to stay "in universe", there is no excuse for this. After all, the prophecies aren't about her, they are about HIM. And she isn't relying on rumor and smoke, Egwene was WITH Rand for the first half of the series. She KNOWS he used the EotW to save Shienar. She KNOWS he lead the heroes of the horn at Falm and drove back Seanchan/fought Ishmael. She KNOWS he somehow, unaided took Callandor out of Tear. She KNOWS he went into Rhuidean, what that entails, and why the Aiel now follow him.

She now KNOWS that he, and not some random creator act is responsible for cleansing Saidin. The list goes on and on.

 

And YET, her response to all of this is always the same "I am TEH MOTHER, you must kiss my ring and submit to my guidance !" Which again would be fine - just fine - if she ever used her power to DO something. When Rand gained control over the Aiel, he used them to liberate Cairhien and Andor. When he gained control over Tear, he forced them to send food to their mortal enemy Illian. When he gained control over the sea folk, he did the same for the western countries. And so on. Now of course none of this has gone as smoothly as planned, but at least he appears to be doing SOMETHING instead of "Oh I got some power, now I must use it to get more power"

 

Even the latest idiocy at the Field of Merrilor. A lot more people would find it palatable if she said "You know, I think breaking the seals would cause _____, I really think we should do _______ instead". But it's not that.

Its "Oh no, you can't do that but instead you must accept my guidance" What exactly does her guidance consist of ?

When Darlin and Gregorin refuse to toe the line her thoughts aren't "Well they are in charge of independant countries, ces't la vie", it's "I must replace them with someone more biddable".

 

WTF.

[Arc]

 

 

The central conceit you are making is indeed what Egwene believes - "Pretty much the whole world is riding on her".

Which, like it or not, just isn't true.

 

As a 4th Wall/Reader you KNOW this. Egwene hasn't been empowered to save the world, RAND has, and therefore Egwene's actions throughout the series, which appear to accomplish little more than consolidate her own political power annoy a large fraction of the reader base.

 

And even if you decide to stay "in universe", there is no excuse for this. After all, the prophecies aren't about her, they are about HIM. And she isn't relying on rumor and smoke, Egwene was WITH Rand for the first half of the series. She KNOWS he used the EotW to save Shienar. She KNOWS he lead the heroes of the horn at Falm and drove back Seanchan/fought Ishmael. She KNOWS he somehow, unaided took Callandor out of Tear. She KNOWS he went into Rhuidean, what that entails, and why the Aiel now follow him.

She now KNOWS that he, and not some random creator act is responsible for cleansing Saidin. The list goes on and on.

 

And YET, her response to all of this is always the same "I am TEH MOTHER, you must kiss my ring and submit to my guidance !" Which again would be fine - just fine - if she ever used her power to DO something. When Rand gained control over the Aiel, he used them to liberate Cairhien and Andor. When he gained control over Tear, he forced them to send food to their mortal enemy Illian. When he gained control over the sea folk, he did the same for the western countries. And so on. Now of course none of this has gone as smoothly as planned, but at least he appears to be doing SOMETHING instead of "Oh I got some power, now I must use it to get more power"

 

Even the latest idiocy at the Field of Merrilor. A lot more people would find it palatable if she said "You know, I think breaking the seals would cause _____, I really think we should do _______ instead". But it's not that.

Its "Oh no, you can't do that but instead you must accept my guidance" What exactly does her guidance consist of ?

When Darlin and Gregorin refuse to toe the line her thoughts aren't "Well they are in charge of independant countries, ces't la vie", it's "I must replace them with someone more biddable".

 

WTF.

 

nailed it -

[RandomName]

Very well put. This is the central reason why Egwene annoys me at times, but still, I feel people are a bit too hard on her. She has grown a lot as a character through her ordeal with the Seanchan, her training with the Wise Ones, and her treatment by Elaida. And let's not forget that she is basically still a kid (is she even old enough to drink?) and still has more growing up to do. Granted, a lot of the Aes Sedai act like spoiled children, and it is frustrating to see Egwene trying to be like that and put on the tired old "Aes Sedai mask". You'd think she would realize that the White Tower has made a bunch of mistakes throughout their history primarily due to their arrogance. Those who do not learn from history is doomed to repeat it...Yada Yada. I would have like to see her do more in terms of preparation for TG, but maybe she is, and we just don't know about it yet. I think she will wise up in the last book. She talks a lot of trash, but she hasn't really done anything to hurt any of the other main characters as far as I know. I did enjoy how Perrin showed her up in the Dream World ("it's just a weave"...haha...priceless). It also seems clear that Rand played her by telling her his plans. He obviously knew what she would do, and he wanted her to do it. Anyway, I totally lost my train of thought now.

[Majsju]

I thought it was pretty obvious in her explanation to Nyneave as to why she wanted to be called Mother. She's also been in this role for the better half of the series (Salidar onwards) and it's said over and over again that she needs to win authority off women who more naturally look the part and have a tendency to assume the role.

 

Anyone here ever read Machiavelli's The Prince? Leaders are basically made of different stuff, follow different ethical guidelines and must think in terms that often discount the human aspect of things.

 

So I end up defending her, but I've never really had a problem with her (except in treatment of Gawyn, there was no trust). Quite frankly I'm surprised anyone finds a fictional character so intolerable...

 

Considering how Gawyn has behaved since LOC, I can not see how she is to blame for not trusting him. Heck, i would not have blamed her if she had locked him in a cell and tossed away the key (quite the contrary to blame, actually)

[ajfurst]

Wow.

 

Granted, I only lurk, but I didn't realize this many people disliked Eggy. I see her character growth as natural. She may be wrong about the seals, but she doesn't know what the 400 year old Grand Male Super Power Aes Sedai does.

 

And people hate her for it? Yes, she's bitchy, but she's in charge a a building full of women who think they know everything. Wouldn't you be?

 

So she requires her friends to toe the line. Have you ever had to be the boss of a friend? And pretty much the whole world is riding on her, so it's a little more important that say, delivering pizzas.

 

Thanks for reading. . . .

 

B.

 

The central conceit you are making is indeed what Egwene believes - "Pretty much the whole world is riding on her".

Which, like it or not, just isn't true.

 

As a 4th Wall/Reader you KNOW this. Egwene hasn't been empowered to save the world, RAND has, and therefore Egwene's actions throughout the series, which appear to accomplish little more than consolidate her own political power annoy a large fraction of the reader base.

 

And even if you decide to stay "in universe", there is no excuse for this. After all, the prophecies aren't about her, they are about HIM. And she isn't relying on rumor and smoke, Egwene was WITH Rand for the first half of the series. She KNOWS he used the EotW to save Shienar. She KNOWS he lead the heroes of the horn at Falm and drove back Seanchan/fought Ishmael. She KNOWS he somehow, unaided took Callandor out of Tear. She KNOWS he went into Rhuidean, what that entails, and why the Aiel now follow him.

She now KNOWS that he, and not some random creator act is responsible for cleansing Saidin. The list goes on and on.

 

And YET, her response to all of this is always the same "I am TEH MOTHER, you must kiss my ring and submit to my guidance !" Which again would be fine - just fine - if she ever used her power to DO something. When Rand gained control over the Aiel, he used them to liberate Cairhien and Andor. When he gained control over Tear, he forced them to send food to their mortal enemy Illian. When he gained control over the sea folk, he did the same for the western countries. And so on. Now of course none of this has gone as smoothly as planned, but at least he appears to be doing SOMETHING instead of "Oh I got some power, now I must use it to get more power"

 

Even the latest idiocy at the Field of Merrilor. A lot more people would find it palatable if she said "You know, I think breaking the seals would cause _____, I really think we should do _______ instead". But it's not that.

Its "Oh no, you can't do that but instead you must accept my guidance" What exactly does her guidance consist of ?

When Darlin and Gregorin refuse to toe the line her thoughts aren't "Well they are in charge of independant countries, ces't la vie", it's "I must replace them with someone more biddable".

 

WTF.

Bingo!

Those on the side of the Light have mostly done three things -

1. Acquire Power and/or Abilities

2. Utilise said Power/Abilities as more then a means to get more Power/Abilities

3. Admit to themselves and/or others character flaws

 

Now Rand, Mat, Perrin, Min, Aviendha, Nynaeve, Morgase, Lan, Galad (in TOM) and even Gawyn (to some extent) have done all three.

 

Egwene and Elayne are the only two major characters on the side of the Light that have done the first and a lot less of the second and none of the third (I'm invincible! Min said so! Saviour of the world, waited for 3000 years, man with knowledge of 450 years, don't turn your back on the 100th or so in a line of Amyrlin Seat's, whose an 18 year old girl. I'm the one who must lead!).

 

Now to fix Egwene (and to a slightly lesser extent Elayne) first and foremost they have to admit to themselves - and preferably like Rand and Perrin publicly as well, that they've made mistakes in the past. Not just in what they've done, but why they did it. That they aren't all knowledgable and the Last Battle requires the world united behind Rand, so he can leave the world to fight it whilst he deals with the Dark One without having to try and simultaneously put out spotfires as the Light can't act as a coherent group.

 

And then after this start acting as Aes Sedai in name - Servants of All - not twisting it to All are Servants Of.

[Hadilmir]

It'll happen on its own now that she has someone to trust. Hate her as I may, Elayne was right, Egwene had no single person she could truly trust. Now, however, she has Gawyn. Notice the turning point of her character, where Egwene-haters actually started developing, occurred shortly after she gained an overwhelming amount of responsibility with no one she could trust to do as asked. I'd say all of Egwene's actions are perfectly justified when you look at it this way- She is the leader of the most powerful (yet incompetent organization) in her known world. There is no one she can absolutely trust in sight (Maybe excepting Siuan and Leane, barely) and the ones she trusts and respects are all many miles away and never making any effort to aid her. (Can you honestly think of any other reason she's been so desperate to have Nynaeve and Elayne back ever since they left?)

 

It's accepted by practically everyone that Rand has harsh challenges like looming madness, death, ruling, conquering, and politicking, but still many blow off the pressure Egwene is under like it is nothing. Egwene knows she's seen as a child by those she leads. She knows her failure could mean a vast majority of the Light's channellers stranded away from the Last Battle because of infighting. She knows she has no friends among the thousands gathered around her. She knows her real friends have forsaken her and her heavy responsibilities for freedom. She knows the Aes Sedai are pathetic and can't be trusted to any task, she notes this how many times in ToM? Ten? Finally, she knows she is terrible to Gawyn, but how can she not be? After months of trusting no one, all she wants is someone to trust but as Elayne notes, it is hard to trust someone you know will not listen to you.

 

After bonding Gawyn I expect there'll be a major difference in the way she acts, it's already started in the Gawyn PoV after the bonding and in her PoV in ch. 56. In my opinion that's how Brandon can 'fix' a working character.

[randsc]

 

After bonding Gawyn I expect there'll be a major difference in the way she acts, it's already started in the Gawyn PoV after the bonding and in her PoV in ch. 56. In my opinion that's how Brandon can 'fix' a working character.

 

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

[Hadilmir]

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

[Jon Paul]

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

 

She doesn't want to unite all the female channellers, she wants to subject all the female channellers not associated with the Tower to her authority. And she has no intention of unity with male channellers. Look at the context around the manner in which the Aes Sedai from the Tower went to the Black Tower. They went to bond men. To tie a leash around the men and place them under female authority. Egwene is not approaching the male channellers as equals.

 

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

 

That was about 6-or-so books ago. These days Egwene is the "perfect" Aes Sedai. She is not a reformer, she is simply a very good Amyrlin. The White Tower's history is littered with the battles between the Hall and the Amyrlin. Egwene is just another in that long line.

 

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

 

Commendable. The problem is she wants everyone else there as a united force.. under her watch.

 

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

She saw Rand hacking at ropes binding a crystal globe.. she assumes it represented his desire to break the seals only after the fact. At the time of her dream, the particular vision did not give her chills did it? She didn't feel like Shai'tan himself was breathing down her neck did she? Her dream proves nothing. The Seals need to be broken.

 

And yes at the time Rand didn't have a plan. But we don't know what he's been doing for the better part of a month. For all we know he may very well have a plan formalised now beyond breaking the seals. And regardless Egwene didn't know Rand didn't have a plan. She simply jumped at the little line he left her so she would take care of things he was too busy to do.

[Hadilmir]

She doesn't want to unite all the female channellers, she wants to subject all the female channellers not associated with the Tower to her authority. And she has no intention of unity with male channellers. Look at the context around the manner in which the Aes Sedai from the Tower went to the Black Tower. They went to bond men. To tie a leash around the men and place them under female authority. Egwene is not approaching the male channellers as equals.

 

 

That was about 6-or-so books ago. These days Egwene is the "perfect" Aes Sedai. She is not a reformer, she is simply a very good Amyrlin. The White Tower's history is littered with the battles between the Hall and the Amyrlin. Egwene is just another in that long line.

 

 

Commendable. The problem is she wants everyone else there as a united force.. under her watch.

 

 

She saw Rand hacking at ropes binding a crystal globe.. she assumes it represented his desire to break the seals only after the fact. At the time of her dream, the particular vision did not give her chills did it? She didn't feel like Shai'tan himself was breathing down her neck did she? Her dream proves nothing. The Seals need to be broken.

 

And yes at the time Rand didn't have a plan. But we don't know what he's been doing for the better part of a month. For all we know he may very well have a plan formalised now beyond breaking the seals. And regardless Egwene didn't know Rand didn't have a plan. She simply jumped at the little line he left her so she would take care of things he was too busy to do.

 

The only thing I can say is, honestly, go reread ToM.

[samataim]

 

Bingo!

Those on the side of the Light have mostly done three things -

1. Acquire Power and/or Abilities

2. Utilise said Power/Abilities as more then a means to get more Power/Abilities

3. Admit to themselves and/or others character flaws

 

Now Rand, Mat, Perrin, Min, Aviendha, Nynaeve, Morgase, Lan, Galad (in TOM) and even Gawyn (to some extent) have done all three.

 

Add Moiraine, Faile, Beleraine, Thom (with correct spelling of course).

 

Basically, every major (and a few minor) character except Egwene has grown and to a small extent Elayne (it could be said her skill with being a fair and quality ruler was her growth).

[Morsker]

I don't like Egwene either, but really her only fault is epitomizing Aes Sedai. There's no way to "fix" this about Egwene. It would ruin her character, and all the tension surrounding Aes Sedai through the whole series, if they just started being polite and reasonable. It's supposed to be a difficult question how much of Aes Sedai behavior we can excuse given different cultural norms and gender roles, and how much is bullying and pettiness.

[gambril]

To think she can be fixed, assumes she can even be fixed in the first place (also assumes she needs fixing). The two best things that could happen to Egwene to be redemeed in my eyes would be to die saving another main character (would be ok, but she still sucked 90% of the story). Or have Mat just turn her over to Tuon, put a leash on her and put her in a kennel alongside Suffa, grab some popcorn and watch them argue endlessly over which one should be scraping the others boots and which gets first dibs at doggie biscuits for the day.

 

*Sarcasm off, kinda *

[Fel]

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

Aka - work to increase the power of the White Tower and her personal power base.

 

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

Don't really see any reforms being done since the decision to open the novice book to all, unless you consider protocol rules in the Hall to be "reform". And, that "reform" was in large part to ensure her political power (and, notably, was seemingly taken far more seriously than the borderlands being overrun)

 

 

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

I don't see any thought of hers directed towards the Last Battle. I see her trying to be the leader of the last battle, but no actual plans to prepare the Aes Sedai to fight it. Maybe they were all off screen (I am sincerely hoping), but the only things I see with her related to the Last Battle is her using it as a stick to try to increase her personal power by having the nations of the world unite behind her at FoM.

 

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

What exactly is her plan? Nothing. She has no plan to replace it. She has no research (that we see) to come up with one. She has no thought out reason as to why the destroying the Seals is wrong other than her unfailing confidence that she knows best.

 

 

If she was working hard to come up with a plan and/or working to make the world better, that would be great. But, in all these cases, she simply is trying to maneuver for more personal power. THAT seems to be the extent of what her will is...make herself more important.

[gambril]

Perhaps Fain's mojo is contagious in some manner and Elaida left just enough behind in the Amyrlin's office and Egwene's sadly contracted the mojo when she was raised in the Tower.

[FarShainMael]

Get her laid.

 

It certainly seemed to help Nynaeve.

 

But not Morgase.

 

If Egwene is still under Halima's influence (as I consider, very likely indeed) then what she needs is for the Compulsion to be lifted - possibly by Rand, possibly Nynaeve.

[randsc]

This is only true if you consider her delight at having a "partner" dedicated to seeing her will done as growth. I thought it was pretty appalling, myself.

 

What is her will? Ohh, that's right-

 

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

What is wrong with any of those?

 

At the very least, can you admit that her definition of the word, "partner" is, umm, non-standard?

[Dysaster]

for weeks if not months halima was "helping" egwene with her Headaches, and i believe there has been at least 1 reference to halima using compulsion/working on eqwene's dreams.

 

so one of the "fastest" fixes would be for her current attitude/pov to have been influenced by halima, then she gets injured with nynaeve there, she delves her, and finds the compulsion weaves influencing her and removes them.

 

but hey. i just want the last book yesterday :)

[randsc]

for weeks if not months halima was "helping" egwene with her Headaches, and i believe there has been at least 1 reference to halima using compulsion/working on eqwene's dreams.

 

so one of the "fastest" fixes would be for her current attitude/pov to have been influenced by halima, then she gets injured with nynaeve there, she delves her, and finds the compulsion weaves influencing her and removes them.

 

but hey. i just want the last book yesterday :)

 

That would be a great (and quick, no need for chapters and chapters devoted to it) fix. I'm an adherent of the Halima compulsion theory myself. But I worry that maybe Jordan and Sanderson didn't have this in mind, and have been operating under the delusion that Egwene is a beloved character. I hope not, but I worry.

[soullessktty]

As much as I dislike (or hate, take your pick) Egwene, I am not sure why she needs fixing. Some characters are meant to be loved (relatively speaking), and some others are meant to be hated (also, relatively speaking), regardless of whether they are part of the Light or Dark's forces. I love to hate (a sorta paradox, heh) some characters on both side of the spectrum, rather than feeling warm and fuzzy about everyone in the book. That shows that the book has served the purpose to drive some emotional feelings inside me, which is the purpose of reading books in the first place.

[ranjitb]

1, Unite the female channellers of the world (excepting Seanchan) and eventually the male channellers

2. Reform the Aes Sedai

3. Get the Aes Sedai to the Last Battle as a unified force

4. Convince Rand that destroying the Seals is wrong. Recall her dream, if you'd be so kind, along with the fact that she knew Rand well enough to correctly guess he doesn't actually have a plan

 

Thanks Hladmir for writing these out, and since this thread is "How to fix Egwene" not, "Why I hate Egwene" (which I obviously do), I'll try to respond in a similar fashion. Also as a second disclaimer, I for one (personally) find Egwene redeemed 1,000,000xs in the Sanderson books. Whether this was the path RJ always intended for her to take - well we will never know, but given her character arc for the first 10 books I unfortunately believe that he had (for whatever reason) somewhat of a blind spot with this character and she kept turning into this insufferable Mary-Sue.

 

1. Unite the female chans. - Yes, but again I ask you TO WHAT END ? If she ever said, just once "You know, if we all got together we could free all of our leashed sisters" or "You know, the Aiels talents in dreaming can actually be used as a pretty nifty spy-and-surgical strike maneouvers in our upcoming war" or "You know, the Sea Folk clearly use their wind talents to help with trade and transport we could do the same" I would find her a lot more palatable. No. Her ONLY motivation has shown to be "We must bring all these women under the over-arching authority of the WT." Now a case can be made that the preservation and dissemination of knowledge is an admirable goal unto itself, and here she should be given some credit.

 

As for the men - honestly I would find it really odd if she suddenly accepted them as equals, 3000 years of prejudice does not vanish overnight (on either part). The only realistic scenario would be for all the (surviving) BT men to be bonded to the Red Ajah.

 

2. Reforming the White Tower - This is really where her character comes off as entirely inconsistent and slightly schizophrenic.

She yo-yos wildly between pushing for actual reform, and then turning around and being straight up regulation AS, sometimes within the same scene. She first says that the oaths are harmful, and AS must retire into the Kin and now she is forcing everyone to take the oaths. She prepares, and indeed leads the tower defence against a surprise Seanchan attack, and in the next book she pooh-poohs the very idea that her pet theory about Mesanna being responsible for everything could be wrong, EVEN WHEN GIVEN EVIDENCE OTHERWISE. She wants AS to be closer to people and hang onto their humanity - no wait, she leads an extra-tortuous test for Nynaeve to see if she is ready to leave her emotions and family behind. She lectures and preaches about how the Ajahs must cooperate for the greater good, and then she turns around and manipulates and plots.

Ugh.

 

3. AS -> last battle as unified force. There has been no indication that she is doing this. NONE. ZERO. We can only go based on what we have seen, and not some secret "behind the scenes" mega-training that may have been going on. As far as we know, the White Tower isn't even AWARE of what is going on in the borderlands, or Seanchan for that matter. WHY ? They are an organized force, with access to traveling and supposedly two brilliant military minds in Gareth Bryne and Gawyn. Not to mention her besty Elayne who is now (completely undeservingly) the most powerful monarch in Randland. Have either of them done something ? ANYTHING ? Beyond securing their own power base ? The only reason Saldea survives is because of Rands intervention - both personal, and in sending Itulrade and Bashere's forces. Lan's army at Tarwin's Gap is entirely of Nynaeve's doing. And he is trying to get Tenobia et al. to return to the borders. What exactly has Egwene done ?

 

4. Convince Rand that seals/wrong. Again I could go along with this IF SHE EVER OFFERED AN ALTERNATIVE. Even if you leave aside the prophetic savior part of it - that we as readers, and SHE both know that it his destiny and duty to do this - what does she want him to to instead ? Sure, she is not privy to Veins of Gold, but she is privy to plenty of other things. She KNOWS of everything he has accomplished - including CLEANSING THE SOURCE, something no one ever thought was possible - why can't we see her think "You know...these are crazy times, and given everything else that happened maybe he knows what he is about". The most whiny and useless character of the last 6 books Perrin - PERRIN - can see this - first he says "Well you know, the Ashamen might be crazy, but I feel they have earned the right to my trust" and then "Well I know breaking the seals sounds crazy, but I trust Rand and feel we should at least hear him out". If one country bumpkin can see this, why can't our all knowing Amrylin ?

A much better response than "No I must stop him at all costs, and not only that get every one else to gang up against him, and oh IF INDEPENDANT COUNTRIES WHERE I HAVE NO AUTHORITY REFUSE TO FOLLOW MY LEAD I MUST SOON REPLACE THEIR RULERS"

Seriously ?

Moirane and Cadsuane did exactly the same things but at least they came up with different ideas - for example, Mo didn't want Rand to go to the Aiel she wanted him to go to Illian instead. Other than "accept her guidance" what exactly has Egwene, ever, been shown she wants the Dragon to do ?

Even if for the sake of peace and unity and cultural tradition and what not, he kneels at her feet and kisses her ring WHAT DOES SHE WANT HIM TO DO NEXT ?

[Elan Tedronai]

How to fix egwene? by bowing down and accepting what the lord, master and the saviour of the world tells her to do.She should stop being the leader of the aes sedai and start being nynaeve mark 2 and be a 'yes my lord dragon aes sedai'

She should never question what the lord dragon commands or does. Who is egwene anyway? huh? who is this woman? she's just the leader of some tower. Don't they know that only the lord dragon knows the way to stop shaitan? He's going to break the seals and then..........and then....... hope min has found the answers. Brilliant plan is it not?

 

And why is she trying to unite all female channellers and enable an exchange program? oh i know why! she's trying to chain these people to the evil machinations of the white tower. She's not happy just chaining those poor kin to the white tower. She wants windfinders and the poor aiel. Look at the poor wise ones. Haven't they suffered enough with so many broken customs? now they must suffer these evil aes sedai intruding into their lives. The gall of this woman. Just look at the way she browbeat those women in accepting her terms. Such arrogance!! who does she think she is?

 

But i fear the worst. Soon she's going to try and tie up the ashaman too. This woman is never satisfied. The poor male channellers would suffer the same consequences the windfinders, the wise one and the kin are headed to. Soon all channellers both male and female would come under one group called the Aes sedai. oh my God! can you imagine that?! The sheer horror of it. Men and women channellers under one roof. We are going to have another age of legends. *shudders* where Aes sedai are the centre of everything. This woman is mad. She must be stopped. we know what happened the last time the aes sedai controlled everything. It led to the breaking of the world.

 

 

No i change my mind. Egwene is too dangerous. We can't rely on her simply obeying rand. Rand is going to retire after the final battle. She will be free to do what she likes after that. She must be killed. Only solution. For the good of the aes sedai, the ashaman, the wise ones and the rest. We can't have any semblance of authority after tarmon gaidon. Why o why couldn't elaida killed her when she had the chance? The great and wonderful elaida tried to reform the girl but she wouldnt have it. Elaida showed mercy too and instead she got defiance from this upstart. what's more she got the great amyrlin captured at the hands of the seanchan.

 

No. Egwene is beyond fixing. beyond redemption. she needs to be killed. For the good of the light Amen.

[Muad Cheade]

These are the most illogical comments I have ever witnessed on this forum.

[randsc]

Some people really perplex me.

[bysomy]

Why does Egwene think being influenced by Taaven is a bad thing? I mean, the will of the pattern is good right?