How To Fix Egwene

[Gathering Storman Norman]

 

Would it be fair of me to say that the only reason you like Egwene is because you must be an ambitious yoman who sees a role model or maybe a teenage boy who must have a crush on the hot, strong chick? Of course not. Not only would that be condesending, but it would not even be a valid argument or response to the reasons that you actually posted.

 

No it wouldn't be fair to lable me one of those and I have refrained from accusing any one person of being sexist or ill informed about what out takes to great war time leader.

 

I'm sure there are plenty that dislike Egween and some that even hate her that don't fall into either category. So if anyone thinks I did I apologize.

 

However, if you step back and read all of the hate filled posts her with some of the weakest irrational explanations about why they hate her you can come to the congleton that I did that there are alot here that fall into the categories I listed.

 

If you or anyone else freel they don't fall into this stereotype, and it is a stereotype, than don't take offense. I was making a generality. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

 

I have my views and I really don't care what anyone else thinks.

 

By the way if enough people posted views that would support your accusations I would have no problem with the generation.

 

And I'm a 43 year old man that is a 22 year Navy vet. So I wouldn't fit either.

 

Oh, I really didn't imagine that you would fit either. I was just trying to point out the unfairness of making generalizations of where people's opinions are coming from rather than addressing their actual points. I agree that some of the Egwene hate out there is a bit irrational but most of the people (if you look past the hyperbole) post some pretty reasonable critiques of the character.

 

I wouldn't really expect to change your opinion. And I can see where you're coming from and you would likely have a unique perspective on her performance as a war-time leader. However, being an effective leader does not necessarily equate to being likable. And that is my biggest problem with the character - She is one of the good guys and therefore I'm supposed to root for her and like her, but I just find the character very unsympathetic and unlikable. I would not want to spend time with her or be her friend. So while I will admit that she has become fairly competent, she is still my least favorite light-sided character.

 

I can agree with everything you said in this post. Especially the part about being an effective leader not necessarily equating to being a likeable! Boy of that isn't the truth.

 

A wise man once told me you will always get the most out of your people if they either love you or fear you, but truly great leaders can be both loved and feared. However, trying to walk that fine line is the easiest way to fail miserably and you end up being extremely ineffective. No one loves or fears you, and certainly no one respects you.

 

I will admit that my experiences may have clouded my judgement, because I see Egween as waking that fine line almost perfectly and I really appreciate someone that can walk that line.

 

If she was any better at it her character would become too unrealistic even in a fantasy series filled with characters that just have way too much go their way.

 

I think RJ was a genius, he wanted to make all of these superhuman lead characters that just would be unrealistic even in a fantasy world, except he built in ta'veren and the phrase "the wheel weaves as the wheel wills". He built in a out of he went too unrealistic with a character. He it worked because they are ta'veren or the wheel willed it.

[Phoenix8514]

I do think she needs to be fixed. I thought many of the major characters needed to be fixed. My favorite character is Rand, but he annoyed me the most. I was glad he had a revelation. Perrin needed to stop running and accept his destiny and the same with Mat. Elayne, who I really do like, finally realized she wasn't indestructable. Nynaeve has changed a great deal since the first book. Most of the characters have showed considerable character growth. Egwene in my opinion has not. Like many have said, she appears to be a Mary Sue. She gets most things she wants and has become extremely arrogant. She has always been an annoying character in my opinion. Starting when she dismissed their warning before leaving EF in the first book. She has constantly put men down throughout the series and acted like they know nothing. This must change. She will have to accept that men will play an important part in the age to come or the WT will lose all its former glory.

 

I don't need something dramatic. A revelation that she admits she has been heavy-handed, arrogant, and she should respect the opinions of others. I'm sure many wish Rand should be the one to spark this transformation and he would be a good candidate. I also think someone like Perrin and Mat would be good as well. Egwene needs to realize she is not the only important person in the world. She is important without a doubt, but she is not the savior of the world. That job belongs to someone else. Saying all this, I am in the camp that believes she has been compelled to some extent. I would prefer that explanation over the one where she is just a really horrible people person. I understand she is young as well and may not have the wisdom older people have, but I don't believe that should be an excuse to hide behind either. Just because you are young does not mean you can be arrogant.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Ok, who is Mary Sue?

 

Check this link: Mary Sue

Many thanks!

 

Now that I know what a Mary Sue is I can honestly say the series is full of them; well Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's.

 

I think you could cast that title on all of the major characters. At least RJ gave us the crutch, that if someone seem too unrealistic, you can always blame weavings of the wheel!

[dwn]

I don't think Egwene is a Mary Sue, at least no more so than any other character. Her flaws--as a person and as a character--are more a result of her story arc and situation than authorial intent.

 

Until Nynaeve's return to the Tower, Egwene has had absolutely no personal friends nor confidants for nearly her entire reign as Amyrlin. She has had no one to give her candid advice, no one to cry foul on her behaviour and decisions, no one to just sit down with to rant and unwind. Siuan has been close--but Siuan has the ulterior motive of trying to make Egwene into an Amyrlin powerhouse.

 

Add to that the incredible stress Egwene has been under, not only during her captivity in the Tower, but also when securing her power base with the SAS. She has been locked into serious damage control mode for months. Even after the reconciliation the Sitters are still playing their stupid political games.

 

Rand and Egwene have had very similar experiences as their power and authority have expanded. Rand became increasingly hard and full of rage; Egwene paranoid and preachy.

 

So how to "fix" her?

 

Gawyn will likely help, now that she seems to understand he isn't trying to publicly undermine. Nynaeve will also help, because of their longstanding friendship, and because Nynaeve isn't part of the Tower political hierarchy. Contrary to what many people seem to think, requiring Nynaeve to formally address Egwene in private wasn't a power grab by Egwene; it was to remind Nynaeve to behave properly in public. Siuan may eventually become more friend than political strategist, as may Silviana and some of the Sitters, but those relationships will take years to build.

 

The big question in whether or not there's enough print space available to allow Egwene to stabilize in her role and actually start acting like a human being again.

 

-- dwn

[SuperFade]

Rand and Egwene have had very similar experiences as their power and authority have expanded. Rand became increasingly hard and full of rage; Egwene paranoid and preachy.

 

It's interesting to consider the supreme irony of Egwene and Rand's respective methods of doing things. Rand has accepted his role in the pattern and that he doesn't need to be hard in order to lead, effectively 'surrendering' himself to fate. Egwene on the other hand is trying to grasp at the world, trying to 'seize' power and influence in order to do what she believes is right. Contrast how the respective genders use their halves of the True Source. I'm sure there's a metaphor hidden in there somewhere.

[Finnssss22]

Rand and Egwene have had very similar experiences as their power and authority have expanded. Rand became increasingly hard and full of rage; Egwene paranoid and preachy.

 

It's interesting to consider the supreme irony of Egwene and Rand's respective methods of doing things. Rand has accepted his role in the pattern and that he doesn't need to be hard in order to lead, effectively 'surrendering' himself to fate. Egwene on the other hand is trying to grasp at the world, trying to 'seize' power and influence in order to do what she believes is right. Contrast how the respective genders use their halves of the True Source. I'm sure there's a metaphor hidden in there somewhere.

 

Most definitely, a very good observation.

 

Don't know if this is weird or not but I have little issue with Egwene's attitude and behavior but Elayne drives me insane.

This is funny to me because Nynaeve used to be the one that drove me nuts the most, followed by Egwene and then Elayne.

Now it's the exact opposite, with especially Elayne, ever since Avi left, waaaay out in front. Avi was a good check on her imo.

Then again I should chalk up some of it to her being with child and cut her some slack.

[randsc]

Ok, who is Mary Sue?

 

Check this link: Mary Sue

Many thanks!

 

Now that I know what a Mary Sue is I can honestly say the series is full of them; well Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's.

 

I think you could cast that title on all of the major characters. At least RJ gave us the crutch, that if someone seem too unrealistic, you can always blame weavings of the wheel!

 

Other charcters had Mary Sue traits, but their development over the series (some quite recent, I admit) redeems them from Mary Sue status in a way that Egwene has not been redeemed.

 

Elayne could be seen as a Mary Sue, except that she has found herself in some tough spots due to her own impulsiveness, and there has been a price to pay. Has she learned from that? Not really. But she hasn't been assured by all and sundry that she did the right thing, either. Egwene has no Birgitte equivilent.

 

Nynaeve isn't Mary Sue. She's two-dimensional enough, but people in-universe are very aware of her flaws. And she herself comes to realize them to a certain degree. Also, Mary Sue is seldom the comic relief. Nynaeve keeps having thoughts about how men's propensity toward violence is so frustrating, she'd like to thump them with a stick, and so on.

 

Rand isn't a Mary Sue/ Gary Stu. Never been portrayed that way, never been given powers that weren't necessary to the plot, never been immune from criticism. Not to mention the whole Dark Rand phase.

 

Perrin also has never been written as Mary Sue. He's been irritating as hell, but not Mary Sue. Interestingly, to me anyway, he may be becoming a bit of a Mary Sue now. I believe that Brandon has said Perrin is his favorite character. Even if he hasn't said it, I think you can see it in ToM.

 

Mat. Well, Mat is your best argument for Gary Stu. The outrageous luck, the near DeM acquisition of unique powers, etc. Except that Mat has also been roundly criticised, in-universe, and really has seen growth and development in his character.

 

Moiraine would be vulnerable to charges of Mary Sue-ness, but she isn't a major enough character to really qualify.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Ok, who is Mary Sue?

 

Check this link: Mary Sue

Many thanks!

 

Now that I know what a Mary Sue is I can honestly say the series is full of them; well Mary Sue's and Gary Stu's.

 

I think you could cast that title on all of the major characters. At least RJ gave us the crutch, that if someone seem too unrealistic, you can always blame weavings of the wheel!

 

Other charcters had Mary Sue traits, but their development over the series (some quite recent, I admit) redeems them from Mary Sue status in a way that Egwene has not been redeemed.

 

Elayne could be seen as a Mary Sue, except that she has found herself in some tough spots due to her own impulsiveness, and there has been a price to pay. Has she learned from that? Not really. But she hasn't been assured by all and sundry that she did the right thing, either. Egwene has no Birgitte equivilent.

 

Nynaeve isn't Mary Sue. She's two-dimensional enough, but people in-universe are very aware of her flaws. And she herself comes to realize them to a certain degree. Also, Mary Sue is seldom the comic relief. Nynaeve keeps having thoughts about how men's propensity toward violence is so frustrating, she'd like to thump them with a stick, and so on.

 

Rand isn't a Mary Sue/ Gary Stu. Never been portrayed that way, never been given powers that weren't necessary to the plot, never been immune from criticism. Not to mention the whole Dark Rand phase.

 

Perrin also has never been written as Mary Sue. He's been irritating as hell, but not Mary Sue. Interestingly, to me anyway, he may be becoming a bit of a Mary Sue now. I believe that Brandon has said Perrin is his favorite character. Even if he hasn't said it, I think you can see it in ToM.

 

Mat. Well, Mat is your best argument for Gary Stu. The outrageous luck, the near DeM acquisition of unique powers, etc. Except that Mat has also been roundly criticised, in-universe, and really has seen growth and development in his character.

 

Moiraine would be vulnerable to charges of Mary Sue-ness, but she isn't a major enough character to really qualify.

 

It is funny how different people have different views of the same thing.

 

You pointed out different reasons why various characters can't be Mary Sues. Every reason you stated Egween has met.

- character growth, check (other than Rand who is almost literally a different person now, no other character has grown as much as Egween)

- found herself in tough spots due to her own impulsiveness and paid a price, major check.

- not given powers unnecessary to the plot, check

- and so on and so forth, check, check, and check

 

Obviously, you don't agree and I won't try to change your mind. I can see how you feel the way you do. I don't find it rational, but I'm sure you feel the same way about how I feel and that is cool.

 

I just hope that BS doesn't read any of these Egween bashing threads and ruin a prefectly good character!

 

As a reader, I don't have to agree with or even like everything or anything a character does to still like the character.

 

I like the over achieving, no holds bar, stubborn, self confident, self righteous, demanding, person Egween has become. Some because that is the type of person I prefer to work for, but mostly it is because if she had been anything else the SAS would never have regained the WT. The WT would still be split and it needs to whole heading into TG!

 

But I can see why some would find that offensive.

[randsc]

Nope, that's not offensive. I don't care if you like Egwene or why. These are just books.

 

What is both idiotic and insulting is the notion that people who don't like Egwene must be sexists. There are a whole lot of good reasons for disliking Egwene that have nothing to do with sexism. For that matter, there are plenty of women who dislike Egwene.

 

This kind of nonsense, for example:

 

Some don't like her because she is a woman in power (the most powerful in Rand land), some don't like her because of how she treated Gawyn, some simply don't understand what it takes to be the leader in her situation, and some don't like her because she didn't bow down and kiss Rand's butt when he sauntered into the WT and announced he was going to break the DO out of prison with no real explanation as to why that was a good idea!

 

You people that have a problem with Egween really should sit back and be honest with yourself as to why you don't like her. I'm not talking about why you don't like some of the things she does but why there is this hatred for what is now one of the best characters on the series.

[Hopefire]

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

 

Sure.

 

Egwene has a number of positive qualities. She's brave, determined, intelligent, devoted, assertive, enduring, optimistic, orderly, resourceful, quick-witted, and willing to stand up for what she believes in. I can see those qualities, and I find that they make her a great character. I can appreciate that others find those qualities make her appealing as a person, but though I enjoy her as a character, I don't enjoy her as a person.

 

Her primary negative qualities, as I see them:

 

I. Unwillingness to accept help. This quality is actually relatively new to Egwene, first appearing in earnest in Towers of Midnight. The two primary examples are her unwillingness to accept Gawyn's help and opinions regarding the White Tower assassinations, and her unwillingness to deal with Rand with regards to finding and defeating Mesaana. In the first case, it almost resulted in her death. In the second case, it proved less necessary, but it doesn't lesson the failure on her part to accept help. It would have taken literally hours to send Nynaeve to Tear to ask Rand if he has any information on Mesaana that would help the White Tower. The White Tower didn't need to bring in Rand or his forces, didn't need to sacrifice anything except a very, very small measure of pride.

 

II. Hypocritical. The primary example of this for me will likely always be her treatment of Nynaeve in the world of dreams, while Egwene herself wasn't supposed to be in the world of dreams. Forcing Aes Sedai to swear allegiance to her, but horrified at the thought of Rand and Elaida requiring sisters to swear similar oaths provides another examples.

 

III. Distant, cold, aloof. Her treatment of Gawyn is one example – having her secretary write a letter to the love of her life was fairly cold. Her treatment of Nynaeve is another; she was more concerned with appearing hard and tough as Amyrlin than in considering her friend's welfare during Nynaeve's test, her insistence that Nynaeve should refer to her as Mother in private, etc. It's one thing to provide a public persona, and I don't begrudge her that. But her inability to separate her public face from her private face is a long standing feature of the character, and one I don't find appealing.

 

IV. A need to be in control. Of all of her traits, this is the one that I think is handled best, and which helps make her an excellent character, even as I dislike how it affects her personality. Egwene, who was briefly a slave, seems to have two modes. The first is where she automatically defers to a person set over her, and the second is where she automatically assumes that she should be in control, because she sees herself as over that person. To Egwene, the great Amyrlin's are those that controlled the Hall and dominated thrones; the weak ones were those who allowed the Hall to lead, and who allowed the influence of the White Tower in the world to slacken. It's a binary way of looking at the world, one that rejects other avenues of success.

 

V. Lack of introspection. Self-awareness is a quality that Rand had a great deal of initially, a quality he effectively lost as the series continued, and has regained in some measure now at the end. It's the quality that makes Perrin endearing as a person and boring as a character for a segment of readers. It's a quality that Mat possesses in spades. Nynaeve didn't have much of it at the start of the series, but has a finely developed sense of it now, much to the betterment of her character. Egwene has not demonstrated a strong facility for self-criticism.

 

These are what I see as her primary character flaws; manifestations of the flaws are that she can be ungrateful and unappreciative, complacent and small-minded, inflexible and rigid. Not all of these will or should be fixed – Mat wouldn't be the same if he wasn't rude and sometimes spiteful by times, Nynaeve's temper and flightiness can be endearing. While Rand has overcome a fair number of his character flaws, Rand's continued aloofness, rudeness, secretiveness, temper and most of all his impatience help make the character enjoyable to read, when taken into consideration with his positive traits. Egwene doesn't need to see her flaws erased (she'd cease to be an interesting character if they were), but to mitigate her flaws or to transmute them into virtues that make her more likable as a person is a development that I'd like to see.

 

With only one book left, I'm not holding out a great deal of hope, but it could happen. For what it's worth, I think that my favourite moment in the series concerning Egwene as a person occurred in Towers of Midnight, wherein she was horrified at the thought of getting married behind her parent's back. Beautiful, humanizing moment there.

[randsc]

2. Can someone state a complete, objective argument on Egwene instead of simply calling her a "bitch," or "Mary Sue" or "baby" etc?

 

Sure.

 

Egwene has a number of positive qualities. She's brave, determined, intelligent, devoted, assertive, enduring, optimistic, orderly, resourceful, quick-witted, and willing to stand up for what she believes in. I can see those qualities, and I find that they make her a great character. I can appreciate that others find those qualities make her appealing as a person, but though I enjoy her as a character, I don't enjoy her as a person.

 

Her primary negative qualities, as I see them:

 

I. Unwillingness to accept help. This quality is actually relatively new to Egwene, first appearing in earnest in Towers of Midnight. The two primary examples are her unwillingness to accept Gawyn's help and opinions regarding the White Tower assassinations, and her unwillingness to deal with Rand with regards to finding and defeating Mesaana. In the first case, it almost resulted in her death. In the second case, it proved less necessary, but it doesn't lesson the failure on her part to accept help. It would have taken literally hours to send Nynaeve to Tear to ask Rand if he has any information on Mesaana that would help the White Tower. The White Tower didn't need to bring in Rand or his forces, didn't need to sacrifice anything except a very, very small measure of pride.

 

II. Hypocritical. The primary example of this for me will likely always be her treatment of Nynaeve in the world of dreams, while Egwene herself wasn't supposed to be in the world of dreams. Forcing Aes Sedai to swear allegiance to her, but horrified at the thought of Rand and Elaida requiring sisters to swear similar oaths provides another examples.

 

III. Distant, cold, aloof. Her treatment of Gawyn is one example – having her secretary write a letter to the love of her life was fairly cold. Her treatment of Nynaeve is another; she was more concerned with appearing hard and tough as Amyrlin than in considering her friend's welfare during Nynaeve's test, her insistence that Nynaeve should refer to her as Mother in private, etc. It's one thing to provide a public persona, and I don't begrudge her that. But her inability to separate her public face from her private face is a long standing feature of the character, and one I don't find appealing.

 

IV. A need to be in control. Of all of her traits, this is the one that I think is handled best, and which helps make her an excellent character, even as I dislike how it affects her personality. Egwene, who was briefly a slave, seems to have two modes. The first is where she automatically defers to a person set over her, and the second is where she automatically assumes that she should be in control, because she sees herself as over that person. To Egwene, the great Amyrlin's are those that controlled the Hall and dominated thrones; the weak ones were those who allowed the Hall to lead, and who allowed the influence of the White Tower in the world to slacken. It's a binary way of looking at the world, one that rejects other avenues of success.

 

V. Lack of introspection. Self-awareness is a quality that Rand had a great deal of initially, a quality he effectively lost as the series continued, and has regained in some measure now at the end. It's the quality that makes Perrin endearing as a person and boring as a character for a segment of readers. It's a quality that Mat possesses in spades. Nynaeve didn't have much of it at the start of the series, but has a finely developed sense of it now, much to the betterment of her character. Egwene has not demonstrated a strong facility for self-criticism.

 

These are what I see as her primary character flaws; manifestations of the flaws are that she can be ungrateful and unappreciative, complacent and small-minded, inflexible and rigid. Not all of these will or should be fixed – Mat wouldn't be the same if he wasn't rude and sometimes spiteful by times, Nynaeve's temper and flightiness can be endearing. While Rand has overcome a fair number of his character flaws, Rand's continued aloofness, rudeness, secretiveness, temper and most of all his impatience help make the character enjoyable to read, when taken into consideration with his positive traits. Egwene doesn't need to see her flaws erased (she'd cease to be an interesting character if they were), but to mitigate her flaws or to transmute them into virtues that make her more likable as a person is a development that I'd like to see.

 

With only one book left, I'm not holding out a great deal of hope, but it could happen. For what it's worth, I think that my favourite moment in the series concerning Egwene as a person occurred in Towers of Midnight, wherein she was horrified at the thought of getting married behind her parent's back. Beautiful, humanizing moment there.

 

An excellent post. You sexist pig.

[mcbernier]

Well, gee whiz, I might as well add my own opinion. I'm not much of a poster. I haven't read the books nearly as many times, or with as great a level of care, as almost everyone here. But I really like the story, and I have an opinion!

 

I hope nobody is offended, but I don't like Egwene. She annoys me for maybe two reasons. I'm sure my reasons have been mentioned, and mentioned, and mentioned....please forgive me.

 

(1) Her attitude. The way she treated her wanna-be warder. The way she is never wrong, and always knows best, etc etc. Perhaps a bit egotistical. Perhaps a bit too much faith in her own judgment, her own ability. I could probably go on. I don't necessarily mind these qualities in a character. Heck, Lanfear is one of my favorite characters! It's just that Eg is purportedly a character I am supposed to like. Admittedly, this is a difficult thing to pin down--why do I really like lanfear, but not egwene? It's hard to put this into words exactly. I love Conan, and he's way more of a "bastard" than Egwene has ever been. It's not that she is a "woman in power." But it might be that she is a girl who has come into power in a very "Mary Sue" way. Let me expand on this in the second point . . .

 

(2) Her accomplishments. It's just too unbelievable. If the story were about her (if she were the main character), and there was no Dragon Reborn, or anything like that--if she were marshaling the forces of the light to fight the DO, then I could be much more forgiving. But this is a world where nary a good character dies, and all the people from Emonds Field go on to glorious things. Every story like this needs there to be central characters who accomplish great things and make it all the way to the end of the story. As readers, there is always some amount of a "willing suspension of disbelief" involved. We know its unlikely, and almost unbelievable, that 3 boys from the same village go on to do the things that Rand, Perrin and Mat have done! I still vaguely remember that "wow!" when Rand turned out to be the Dragon Reborn, the strongest in the One Power to ever walk the earth. And then we add Perrin and Mat, who develop their own unique powers. I remember thinking: they have superpowers too? Really? But then we have to add Nynaeve, who we find out is also one of the most powerful in the One Power--for all intents, the most powerful woman since the Age of Legends. Really? She is...? I then find myself accepting something that is just *slightly* over the line. But then Egwene is also found to be almost as powerful as Nynaeve. Not only that, but she goes on, through a long and difficult road, to become the Amerlyn Seat--perhaps the most politically powerful position in all the wetlands. Wow. How did that happen? Yes: I saw the progression. But how can so many people, from this little village, go on to do so many great things? This big picture has always been a little difficult for me to swallow. I can excuse Perrin, Rand and Mat, since RJ built into the story the plot device of their being "ta'veren." and they are, after all, the central characters. I can even find a way to understand--in the construction of the story--how Nynaeve and Egwene could be as powerful as they are. This is a backwater hicktown, with "old blood" or something, which hasn't been diluted for centuries, etc etc. Ok. I get it. A little too much, but I can accept it. But it is becoming progressively more difficult to accept things. Where it becomes a bit much is in Egwene's rise to power. This is not explained by either ta'veren-ness or old blood. And this is why she becomes too much to believe as a character (in that she becomes unlikeable), and why she comes across as a "Mary Sue." If she had just come from a different town, I may actually have felt differently about her! I don't have the same reaction to Elayne, or Avi, or Lanfear, or Elaida. They are all fine, believable characters. But Egwene......sweet Egwene. Alas!

 

Heck, maybe I'm wrong.

[capuga]

It is funny how different people have different views of the same thing.

 

You pointed out different reasons why various characters can't be Mary Sues. Every reason you stated Egween has met.

- character growth, check (other than Rand who is almost literally a different person now, no other character has grown as much as Egween)

- found herself in tough spots due to her own impulsiveness and paid a price, major check.

- not given powers unnecessary to the plot, check

- and so on and so forth, check, check, and check

 

While I view the character differently than you in a number of respects, I want to address this point specifically. I would say that Egwene has easily experienced the least amount of growth of all the main characters. I'm not refering to her rise from innkeepers daughter to Amyrlin Seat. I'm refering to who she is as a person. And that is an ambitious person willing to do whatever is necessary to reach her goals and always assured of her own rightness.

 

While those aren't necessarily bad characteristics, they lead her to some unlikable actions. Practicing with the OP when she is told not to, lying to the Wise Ones, etc. Its important to point out that out of all the kids that left Emonds Field, Egwene is the only one who left for selfish reasons. She wanted to have an adventure. The boys left because their presence put the Two Rivers in danger (this was a much more important point to them then reaching the safety of Tar Valon for themselves) and Nynaeve left because she thought the Aes Sedai put the boys in danger. But Egwene just wanted what she wanted and she snuck into the group uninvited to get what she wanted.

 

I will agree that projecting an aura of complete control and confidence is necessary to her political standing amongst the Aes Sedai. However, good leaders are willing to recognize their own mistakes and learn from them. Even if they do not let anyone else know they think they made a mistake. Egwene almost never believes she has made a mistake which makes her incapable of learning from her errors and improving her actions.

 

Who she is as a person has experienced virtually no change since the beginning. It just plays out over a grander stage now.

[ranjitb]

@Hopefire - thanks for laying it all out (again !). I just want to reinforce that compounding the problems is the overall "meta-problem", i.e. that for whatever reason, The AUTHORS refuse to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with Egwene - this is what leads into the whole MarySue thing. Sure, if she was just a horrible person she could at least be an interesting literary character, vis-a-vis Dark Rand, or even Elaida. But she is a horrible person who contradicts every "concept" that is forced down the throat of the remaining characters (accepting help, remaining humble, gender co-operation) and yet continues to never set a foot wrong and always have everything go her way.

Its downright schizophrenic when any character (pick one) thinks (most often in the same sentence) "hmmm, this Dragon person is just a trumped up village boy with no experience, one I don't know personally, I must be cautious of handing over the reigns of my kingdom to him - oh wait, I know, EGWENE ALVERE who I have never met either is a great Amrylin, probably the greatest ever, I must let HER deal with him". WHAT ?

 

@BigCheese - the grand irony is that the only reason EAV was raised to Amrylin was the cabal thought they could control her, and through her Two Rivers history the Dragon. In other words, because of who she Knows and not who she is. Of course, that will never be acknowledged openly.

[Suttree]

While I view the character differently than you in a number of respects, I want to address this point specifically. I would say that Egwene has easily experienced the least amount of growth of all the main characters. I'm not refering to her rise from innkeepers daughter to Amyrlin Seat. I'm refering to who she is as a person. And that is an ambitious person willing to do whatever is necessary to reach her goals and always assured of her own rightness.

 

While those aren't necessarily bad characteristics, they lead her to some unlikable actions. Practicing with the OP when she is told not to, lying to the Wise Ones, etc.

 

 

Why is practicing with the one power when told no to an unlikable action when applied to Egwene? We have seen just about every AS of promise do it, including Moraine and Siuan in NS. As for lying to the Wise Ones, she has met her toh and owned up to it. It comes down to perception with a number of these things but doing whatever is necessary to meet her goals, when applied to someone who is genuinely trying to do the right things for the side of the light isnt really a bad thing.

[mcbernier]

@BigCheese - the grand irony is that the only reason EAV was raised to Amrylin was the cabal thought they could control her, and through her Two Rivers history the Dragon. In other words, because of who she Knows and not who she is. Of course, that will never be acknowledged openly.

 

Good point.

[randsc]

While I view the character differently than you in a number of respects, I want to address this point specifically. I would say that Egwene has easily experienced the least amount of growth of all the main characters. I'm not refering to her rise from innkeepers daughter to Amyrlin Seat. I'm refering to who she is as a person. And that is an ambitious person willing to do whatever is necessary to reach her goals and always assured of her own rightness.

 

While those aren't necessarily bad characteristics, they lead her to some unlikable actions. Practicing with the OP when she is told not to, lying to the Wise Ones, etc.

 

 

Why is practicing with the one power when told no to an unlikable action when applied to Egwene? We have seen just about every AS of promise do it, including Moraine and Siuan in NS. As for lying to the Wise Ones, she has met her toh and owned up to it. It comes down to perception with a number of these things but doing whatever is necessary to meet her goals, when applied to someone who is genuinely trying to do the right things for the side of the light isnt really a bad thing.

 

She lied to Rhuarc, as well. And hasn't met that toh.

 

When the Wise Ones came for Elayne for her sisterhood ceremony with Avi, they made a point of doing so publically. Hopefully, Rhuarc does the same.

 

As for the rest, Egwene was, especially early on, not trying to "do the right things for the side of the light." That the things she did may have turned out to be the right things for the side of the light is no more than a happy coincidence. Egwene did as she did to serve her personal ambition. This is what makes her so different than, for example, Nynaeve.

 

I think excessive personal ambition is part of the reason people dislike certain characters. We are dealing with the literal End Times here. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. Viewed against that backdrop, angling for personal advantage is tough to admire.

[capuga]

While I view the character differently than you in a number of respects, I want to address this point specifically. I would say that Egwene has easily experienced the least amount of growth of all the main characters. I'm not refering to her rise from innkeepers daughter to Amyrlin Seat. I'm refering to who she is as a person. And that is an ambitious person willing to do whatever is necessary to reach her goals and always assured of her own rightness.

 

While those aren't necessarily bad characteristics, they lead her to some unlikable actions. Practicing with the OP when she is told not to, lying to the Wise Ones, etc.

 

 

Why is practicing with the one power when told no to an unlikable action when applied to Egwene? We have seen just about every AS of promise do it, including Moraine and Siuan in NS. As for lying to the Wise Ones, she has met her toh and owned up to it. It comes down to perception with a number of these things but doing whatever is necessary to meet her goals, when applied to someone who is genuinely trying to do the right things for the side of the light isnt really a bad thing.

 

In and of itself, not much. My point was more along the fact that she has always been that way. I was arguing that she has had very little character growth. Her ambition and willingness to do anything to get what she wants has been consistent from day one.

 

Whether these traits make her likable or not is all based on personal preference. I don't happen to like her but I can she how others do. But I will disagree with anyone who thinks that Egwene has demonstrated much, if any, personal growth.

[Suttree]

While I view the character differently than you in a number of respects, I want to address this point specifically. I would say that Egwene has easily experienced the least amount of growth of all the main characters. I'm not refering to her rise from innkeepers daughter to Amyrlin Seat. I'm refering to who she is as a person. And that is an ambitious person willing to do whatever is necessary to reach her goals and always assured of her own rightness.

 

While those aren't necessarily bad characteristics, they lead her to some unlikable actions. Practicing with the OP when she is told not to, lying to the Wise Ones, etc.

 

 

Why is practicing with the one power when told no to an unlikable action when applied to Egwene? We have seen just about every AS of promise do it, including Moraine and Siuan in NS. As for lying to the Wise Ones, she has met her toh and owned up to it. It comes down to perception with a number of these things but doing whatever is necessary to meet her goals, when applied to someone who is genuinely trying to do the right things for the side of the light isnt really a bad thing.

 

In and of itself, not much. My point was more along the fact that she has always been that way. I was arguing that she has had very little character growth. Her ambition and willingness to do anything to get what she wants has been consistent from day one.

 

Whether these traits make her likable or not is all based on personal preference. I don't happen to like her but I can she how others do. But I will disagree with anyone who thinks that Egwene has demonstrated much, if any, personal growth.

 

Curious, what do you believe was the the point of her TGS character arc? Do you think the authors were shooting for personnel growth and fell short of the mark?

[capuga]

While I view the character differently than you in a number of respects, I want to address this point specifically. I would say that Egwene has easily experienced the least amount of growth of all the main characters. I'm not refering to her rise from innkeepers daughter to Amyrlin Seat. I'm refering to who she is as a person. And that is an ambitious person willing to do whatever is necessary to reach her goals and always assured of her own rightness.

 

While those aren't necessarily bad characteristics, they lead her to some unlikable actions. Practicing with the OP when she is told not to, lying to the Wise Ones, etc.

 

 

Why is practicing with the one power when told no to an unlikable action when applied to Egwene? We have seen just about every AS of promise do it, including Moraine and Siuan in NS. As for lying to the Wise Ones, she has met her toh and owned up to it. It comes down to perception with a number of these things but doing whatever is necessary to meet her goals, when applied to someone who is genuinely trying to do the right things for the side of the light isnt really a bad thing.

 

In and of itself, not much. My point was more along the fact that she has always been that way. I was arguing that she has had very little character growth. Her ambition and willingness to do anything to get what she wants has been consistent from day one.

 

Whether these traits make her likable or not is all based on personal preference. I don't happen to like her but I can she how others do. But I will disagree with anyone who thinks that Egwene has demonstrated much, if any, personal growth.

 

Curious, what do you believe was the the point of her TGS character arc? Do you think the authors were shooting for personnel growth and fell short of the mark?

 

Perhaps, although I think this was just a further continuation of her existing character traits (ambition, stubbornness, belief in her own rightness, etc). It was just applied more nobly and towards a more noble goal. KoD and tGS were also the only books like I actually started to like Egwene. Then there was the significant backslide that was ToM.

[randsc]

Accomplishment and character growth are not the same thing. A character can accomplish more in one book than in previous books without experiencing any meaningful growth.

 

Other have pointed out that there is a real difference in the feel of Egwene's PoVs as opposed those of the other characters. I agree. It is odd to see detachment, in a character's own dialog with herself.

[Suttree]

I think excessive personal ambition is part of the reason people dislike certain characters. We are dealing with the literal End Times here. The fate of the world hangs in the balance. Viewed against that backdrop, angling for personal advantage is tough to admire.

 

Again perception, if you truly think she is angling for personal advantage based on greed and power...yes that is obvs a bad thing. I feel she is doing what she believes best to help save the world and reunite the WT.

 

But she is a horrible person who contradicts every "concept" that is forced down the throat of the remaining characters (accepting help, remaining humble, gender co-operation) and yet continues to never set a foot wrong and always have everything go her way.

 

See when the anti-Egwene crowd starts throwing around terms like "horrible person" it's kind of hard to take serious.

 

In relation to always having everything going her way...being captured by the Children, made Damane, imprisoned in the stone by the BA, injured by Lanfear, and captured by the WT don't really fall into that category.

 

As for accepting help, working with the Wise Ones and taking Siuan as an advisor are just two of many examples. The Aiel believe she understands ji'e'toh. Over the course of her reign, she tries her best to live by the three oaths despite the fact that she had not yet sworn on the Oath Rod. Don't get me wrong I understand and agree with a number of her character flaws but once people start suggesting death to fix her character or talking about how horrible of a person she is it's just taking it way too far.

 

Perhaps, although I think this was just a further continuation of her existing character traits (ambition, stubbornness, belief in her own rightness, etc). It was just applied more nobly and towards a more noble goal. KoD and tGS were also the only books like I actually started to like Egwene. Then there was the significant backslide that was ToM.

 

Agreed, it was around that time that I came back around to her side. Though how it was applied gives us a good hint towards her motivations in my mind. I hope we see more of the pre ToM Egwene in the final book.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

 

Perhaps, although I think this was just a further continuation of her existing character traits (ambition, stubbornness, belief in her own rightness, etc). It was just applied more nobly and towards a more noble goal. KoD and tGS were also the only books like I actually started to like Egwene. Then there was the significant backslide that was ToM.

 

Agreed, it was around that time that I came back around to her side. Though how it was applied gives us a good hint towards her motivations in my mind. I hope we see more of the pre ToM Egwene in the final book.

 

I never really saw here as ambitious, but I guess I can now see how people do, I don't agree with it, but I can see it.

 

I never liked her character until she confessed to the Wise Ones that she had lied to them and met her toh to them Yes, she still has unmet toh to Rhuarc, but she has been kind of busy!). She could have slipped away to Salidar without meeting her toh to the Wise Ones but she knew it was the right thing to do even though it would be admitting a very big mistake on her part. It was at that point that I thought, this character might have some promise, from that point on everything seemed to be for the greater good.

 

She goes on to outmaneuver the gutless SAS that had planned to use her and toss her aside if thing went poorly.

 

Got captured by the Elida's AS because she went to try to seal the Tarvalon port gate herself instead of sending someone that she knew would fail. She knew the mission was risky and decided to take that risk herself. It was a bad call! And she kicked herself again and again for being so stupid.

 

Just like when she lost her temper with Elida at the dinner that lead to being actually stuck in a cell and could have resulted in her execution. She knew she had made a terrible mistake and again admitted.

 

I could go on and on listing all the times she made bad decisions and admitted the mistake,

 

Her handling of Gawyn in ToM was not a mistake. Unless you count not throwing him out of Tarvalon the first time he defied he in public. He was almost completely in the wrong in ToM. Yes, he ended up saving her life, but that was after he botched her first trap. Had he not done that she might not have been in the same situation.

 

Yes, she essentially blackmailed some AS along the way, but she never forced them. They could have done like she did and face the music when caught, but they didn't and she used that to help reunite the WT.

 

Yes, she changed her tune on Nynaeve call her by her first name in private, because her former mentor needed to be reigned in because she didn’t see Eqween as the Amyrlin or at least wasn’t showing it in public.

 

And I’ll admit that I made a mistake by saying that I think some of the people that hate her are sexist or don’t have a clue as to what it takes to be a war time leader. I never meant it to be a blanket statement and I can see now it was not a very good idea. I have not changed my mind on that, but I shouldn’t have voiced it, because it was a no win proposition.

[randsc]

Your post didn't offer any possible reason for disliking Egwene that wasn't tied to some deficiency on the part of the person who didn't like her. That's the problem with it.

 

It is possible to:

 

1. Not be sexist;

2. Think Gawyn is a tool;

3. Understand command;

4. Not care if Egwene defies Rand;

 

and still

 

5. Not like Egwene.

 

You came here and announced, literally with your first post, that you had those who dislike certain "strong female characters" all figured out. You're wrong, and that's offensive in a way that you having a different opinion about those characters is not.

 

I've tried to combat this sort of thing in the past by turning it around, and claiming that the only way someone could like Egwene is if they're a snotty adolescent feminist or a love-sick little boy. I never directed this sort of statement at someone who hadn't made a similarly blanket statement about people who dislike Egwene, usually several times. But that still proved too subtle, and people couldn't recognize the irony, and reacted with spluttering outrage. So I am laying it out in black and white (well, really black and a sort of light beige, on my monitor).

 

You don't know anything about the posters who don't like Egwene. You don't know our age, our sex, our views on gender, our experience with command. You know that you like Egwene, and we don't. That's it.

 

This isn't meant to be confrontational, just to help avoid these sorts of misunderstandings in the future. It was pointed out to me that when I (jokingly, but apparently not obviously so) pretended that I could discern all kinds of things about a person from their opinion of a character, it ended up misunderstood and people got offended. I'll still tweak someone a bit, accuse them of projection, for example, but I'm a bit more careful to be sure I am not claiming to know everything about a person and their attitudes and experience just because I know how they feel about a fictional character. So I'm offering that same advice to you.

[haloun]

I am generally in the club that thinks she was a bit over the top in this last book. she seemed very power hungry and she seemed to be forgetting the importance of personal relationships as a whole. I do however agree with SuperFade, she has been going through a lot of stress. put yourself in her shoes, you would react in similar ways, that goes for guys and gals. There is no denying she has a powerful will. that is who she is. as for why it is easier for rand to accept his fate than it is for her? she doesnt have countless prophecies dedicated to how she will rule the world after, or fall in battle. the prophecies about her that we have heard in the series have all been fulfilled. the unstained tower breaks and bends knee, blah, blah, blah. maybe she still needs to recognize rand as the dragon reborn, maybe the wheel wills her to bow down to him, even as a show of faith to say break the seals. maybe not, personally i dont think she should have to. she does however need to overcome her prejudice that has been there from the beginning of men know nothing, and can only think with the hair on their chests, men are a lot smarter than she gives them credit for, especially the ones that she needs to ally herself with. of course she did kind of shoot herself in the foot by giving the hall complete power over the military might of the white tower. they can ally with mat, or perrin, probably mat since he will most likely be the one leading the charge in TG while egwene sits there and tries to bully rand like she has every step of the way. anyways, she doesnt have these prophecies giving her direction like rand does so it is not all that easy for her to recognize her destiny the way it is for rand. she is behaving like a normal person in an abnormal circumstance, which is what she has been the entire time. plain egwene, from the TR, wasnt raised to accepted immediately, had one or two special talents that gave her a slight edge, after 10 books. had to train and quite difficultly I might add in her politics, and in her talents, or at least in dreaming, and this i think is what is the subconscious reason for all the hate. she is supposed to be a wonder girl, but she has all these flaws in that motif that make her seem average, and the fact that it is just an average girl dealing with all of these issues, is what kind of makes people stop and criticize her. I thiunk it was briliantly planned by RJ to show that even average people, with nothing extremely special, the dreaming turned to be somewhat average after a bit anyways, can rise to a place of power. it goes against society and against the norm of what we think of in a hero. a hero can be born in humble circumstances, but shouldnt have be average. they should have extraordinary abilities, or prophecies about them. all in all I have liked egwene throughout the series, she has been one of my favorite characters, but in this last book, she got a bit annoying with her trash talk to gawyn, who has also incidentally been one of my favorites. as has perrin and mat, but not rand. go figure.