Moriane

[RJJT86]

I just thought of something. I don't know why but I always get the image of the Jedi when I think of the Aes Sedai, and we know that both grow in strength of the power the more they practice and they more time they have. So my question is, when Moriane comes back "from the dead". Is it possible that she will have a significantly greater strength in the power perhaps. I'm just quessing right now, but if anyone has any ideas about that, or perhaps about any knowledge she may have acquired while with the Finns please share it with me.

[Guest Majsju]

I strongly doubt it. All channelers have a limit regarding how strong they can possibly become, and Moiraine should definitly have reached that limit a long time ago, considering she's been Aes Sedai for 20 years.

[Kadere]

Though there is the possibility that she may have made a few wishes in order to become more powerful. It has been speculated in the past that Lanfear's loss was Moriane's gain. That the Finn may have taken power from Lanfear and transfered it to Moriane through one wish or another.

 

One of the more common held beliefs is that the DO weakened Lanfear for punishment but a) we don't know that for sure, and b) if the DO's going to give her a mindtrap anyway, why weaken one of his most powerful tools?

 

But then this is all just specualtion and theory, based on the hope that Moriaine's not going to be the same Aes Sedai she once was after being set free.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I can see her coming back with more knowledge of how to use the Power but not with more strength in the Power.

[Whitestar]

I have to disagree. I doubt that she will come back any stronger or wiser. I've always pictured her as being a prisoner with only the knowledge that Thom is coming to save her keeping her spirits up.

 

Truthfully though, I hope she doesn't come back in the last book and RJ has it as one of those threads that arn't finished yet. I know she is needed for Rand to win, but it isn't said if she physically needs to be there. Maybe it's some knowledge that she passed on that will be necessary or something. I love Moraine and she has always been one of my favorite characters, but her task in the books (finding and helping rand prepare for the last battle) has been completed.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, its my opinion that she was stilled when the gate blew up, thereby snapping her bond with Lan. So, maybe she could be Healed, but only back to her original strength.

[Rumor]

I think we don't really know enough about the Finns to know what is possible for Moiraine to come back as...she could come back stilled and healable, less powerful, more powerful, anything really. But I don't see her coming back as more powerful simply because of an experience that she has (i.e. gains power by becoming more experienced in using the power).

 

The door is wide open for RJ based on what we know of the Finns, but I don't see how more experiences in using the OP can increase Moiraine's power with the OP given how long she has worn the shawl. Otherwise it seems to me that Cadsuane should be the strongest in the power of all of the Aes Sedai and that any Ashaman would be much much weaker (except for Rand perhaps because of LTT being in his head) than any of the FS. But we already know that at least a few (i.e. Logain and Taim) of them are not that far from Rand in OP power so likely not far from at least some of the Foresakens', so the "power increasing from experience" past a certain point just doesn't work.

[Jellybelly]

I have to disagree. I doubt that she will come back any stronger or wiser. I've always pictured her as being a prisoner with only the knowledge that Thom is coming to save her keeping her spirits up.

 

Truthfully though' date=' I hope she doesn't come back in the last book and RJ has it as one of those threads that arn't finished yet. I know she is needed for Rand to win, but it isn't said if she physically needs to be there. Maybe it's some knowledge that she passed on that will be necessary or something. I love Moraine and she has always been one of my favorite characters, but her task in the books (finding and helping rand prepare for the last battle) has been completed.[/quote']

 

Except that Min said she had seen several things in Moiraine's future that never happened. All evidence indicates that Moiraine as not completed her task in the books.

[Whitestar]

Not necessarily. Min's predictions merely state that there is something that is supposed to happen in the future regarding Moraine taht hasn't come true. There is nothing to suggest that it has anything to do with the last battle. For all we know she predicted Moraine would marry Thom. That would certainly explain how she could know the face of her future husband better than Egwene or Elayne. The only line from the book that even hints at Moraine being back in the last book is Min's prediction that Rand will need her and that could mean a lot of different things.

[Luckers]

I too do not believe that she will come back stronger or wiser. I believe as Robert does, that she was stilled in the fight with Lanfear, and that she has been held prisoner.

[MsDanya]

I agree there. I dont think Moiraine can channel anymore. but I believe that she has learned so much in the Finnland (haha) that she will be able to be an even better advisor to Rand and the other boys, and even know some secrets that they dont know about how to win the Last Battle.

 

the Healing of stilled Aes Sedai will have its best use here. Moiraine can do so much more if she can channel..

 

Moiraine Rocks my socks!!! :D

[Gondring]

I agree there. I dont think Moiraine can channel anymore. but I believe that she has learned so much in the Finnland (haha) that she will be able to be an even better advisor to Rand and the other boys' date=' and even know some secrets that they dont know about how to win the Last Battle.

 

the Healing of stilled Aes Sedai will have its best use here. Moiraine can do so much more if she can channel..

 

Moiraine Rocks my socks!!! :D[/quote']

 

i dont know... I can see Moiraine coming back and being the voice of reason that brings Rand around to realize whats going on. (Taim and the tower and such) And bring him around into action.

 

If she can channel or not, I personally hope so, because that would be rather interesting to see Lan defending Nynaeve and Moiraine (Though i dont doubt he could)Just adds to the mystery i suppose.

[RJJT86]

It would makes sense that she was stilled in her battle with Lanfear, but personally I think that what severed the connection to Lan, wasn't he loss of the One Power but rather the melting of the gateway. I mean aren't the Finns in like a whole other plane so wouldn't the closing of the access to that plane have severed the bond between she and Lan? That makes just as much sense as stilling to me.

 

But I guess I was just remarking on the similarity between Aes Sedai and Jedi. The Jedi gain knowledge and effeciency in the force through both time, and use, and it's the same with Aes Sedai, though whereas there is no limit to the Force there is a limit to the One Power I guess. I just wish there wasn't. It would make for some very interesting drama.

[Kadere]

won't it be great when in AMoL Rand's sitting around torturing Semirhage, and then Moriane walks in and starts yelling about Lanfear, and Semirhage is like "What you talking about, Moriane?" Since most of the Forsaken are still unsure about Cydane and what happened. Ah, it's going to be great. :lol:

[RobertAlexWillis]

Holy crap Luckers, you agree with me on this one!?

 

 

Sweet.

[Wolfwalker]

Except that Min said she had seen several things in Moiraine's future that never happened. All evidence indicates that Moiraine as not completed her task in the books.

 

I agree....it's mentioned that Min's viewings of Moiraine were the only ones which "failed". Everything else she sees, always happens, no matter what is done to try and avoid it.

And one of her viewings told her Rand will fail without Moiraine.

 

I see Moiraine's captivity by Finns as a result of her wishes/bargains with them. Remember, you get to ask for three things, but then there is a price.

 

If captivity was the price, what did she receive in return? What would she ask for?

[Luckers]

Holy crap Luckers, you agree with me on this one!?

 

Hmm... strange. I seriously thought the end of the world would have more locusts. Though it must be said that it is obviously you who agrees with me since clearly i posted before you (The internet rearanged the order to make it look otherwise. Google is plotting against me you see. Tragic! Tragic!)

 

It would makes sense that she was stilled in her battle with Lanfear, but personally I think that what severed the connection to Lan, wasn't he loss of the One Power but rather the melting of the gateway. I mean aren't the Finns in like a whole other plane so wouldn't the closing of the access to that plane have severed the bond between she and Lan? That makes just as much sense as stilling to me.

 

When push comes to shove, what you have is that two channelers, channeling as much of the power as they possibly could, in combat with each other, fell into a ter'angreal that subsequently exploded. A result of this is that Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed, something we have only seen happen when an Aes Sedai dies, or is stilled**. Additionally, the next time we see Lanfear she is weaker in the power, which is again an effect we have only seen when a woman has been stilled. Finally, you have two powerful channelers with an angreal no less, held captive by people we have seen be effected by the power in the past.

 

Frankly i think the evidence speaks for itself.

 

**No, intentional releasing of the bond is not included as it does not cause the death-feelings in warders, something we know Land had.

 

But I guess I was just remarking on the similarity between Aes Sedai and Jedi. The Jedi gain knowledge and effeciency in the force through both time, and use, and it's the same with Aes Sedai, though whereas there is no limit to the Force there is a limit to the One Power I guess. I just wish there wasn't. It would make for some very interesting drama.

 

Frankly i dont see it. They are both pseudo-magical abilities... but the connection ends there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It would makes sense that she was stilled in her battle with Lanfear, but personally I think that what severed the connection to Lan, wasn't he loss of the One Power but rather the melting of the gateway. I mean aren't the Finns in like a whole other plane so wouldn't the closing of the access to that plane have severed the bond between she and Lan? That makes just as much sense as stilling to me.

 

The Aelfinn and the Eelfinn share a world, and as long as that world is connected to Randland (as it still is through the ter'angreal doorway in Tear, at the very least) physical distance is irrelevant to maintaining the Warder bond intact. Jonn and several others in the "Who killed Asmodean?" string will say "Well, something else could have done it." or "Maybe Moiraine just passed the bond." But the only things that we know of that cause the reactions we've seen in Lan are the death or stilling of a Warder's Aes Sedai. Moiraine only set the bond up to transfer to Myrelle in case of catastrophic severing of the bond, to prevent Lan from dying to avenge her or returning to his war in the Blight. She was planning for her death, but being stilled is an equivalent change as far as the bond is concerned. As far as "something else" causing the effect, the only possible reason for Jordan to make up "something else" so that there would remain a miniscule chance that Moiraine killed Asmodean.

 

That is ridiculous, but some people won't admit it, because, to they're just stuck on Moiraine.

 

Incidentally, I think Moiraine was stilled as a result of channeling the wrong way near/in a ter'angreal, not because Lanfear severed her. That is more speculative, but we know its one of the common side effects of screwing up with ter'angreal.

[sports25]

Does anyone remember the viewings Min had of Moiraine that were never fulfilled? Do we even find out most of them?

[Guest Majsju]

It's never explained what the viewing(s) actually is, only that Rand will lose TG without Moiraine.

[Trib4l]

I think it's safe to assume that Min may have also seen more than a few "marriage halos" at the inn in Baerlon as well. Hers with Rand, Moiraine and Thom, and Nynaeve and Lan. Could be that she's stumped by that one not coming true as well.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Frankly, I consider Lanfear having been Stilled to be a bunch of bull. No offense to anyone that insists on it, but it just doesn't add up.

 

1) Who healed her? None of the Forsaken could. Even Moridin, only a couple of chapters before she returns on stage, still regards it as impossible even though he knows it isn't.

 

2) Her loss in Power is not nearly significant enough to account for having been stilled and healed by a woman, and too much if she was healed by a man. Siuan and Leane went from at or near the top of the Aes Sedai pecking order to almost the very bottom. Were talking what 90th percentile to 10th? Suian can barely do things that she didn't even need to think about before being stilled. Lanfear starts at the top and stays there? Unlikely. At the very least, Graendal or Semirhage should be more powerful now.

 

3) When did it occur? Pre-mortem makes no sense. Nynaeve detects something cut. She corrects pseudo-physical damage. Why would that carry over to a new body? Even if it was a partial servering of the link between the body and soul, the Transmigration should have corrected it. After all, her death would have created a total severing of the link to the soul. Post-resurrection brings us back to point 1 with the addition of the question of why sever and heal her if you are going to Mindtrap her?

 

It's time to start looking for another explanation. Just because we haven't seen anything other than stilling/healing resulting in the reduced strength doesn't mean nothing else can. The ability to channel can be masked. Maybe it is the Mindtrap. We don't know a lot about what that does beyond give control to another person. Just because we weren't told Moghedien hasn't had her strength capped doesn't mean she hasn't. Graendal only assessed Cyndane's strength because Graendal didn't know who Cyndane was. Did she bother to reassess Moghedien, or did she just take it for granted that it was the same?

 

The fact is we don't know why Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, and we don't have anything that we can use to say for sure. We can speculate, but that is all we can do.

[KaptainKaos]

Oddly when I first read the part in book 4 when Moiraine and Lanfear went through the gateway and Lan felt the connection sever I never even contemplated it being because Moiraine had been severed herself I immediately thought it was something to do with the portal to the Finn dimension being destroyed. The main reason for my thoughts to not include Moiraine being severed was that there was no cause for her to be severed. I'll admit I can't remember if she was holding the Power or not but even if her and Lanfear both were holding the Power Moiraine used physical force to shove Lanfear through the tunnel she didn't use the power. Lanfear was too distracted at the time to use anymore of the Power than she was already using so unless that was very close to her limit I don't think that either one was in danger of being stilled (I just realized I have been using the Age of Legends talk 'severed' instead of just saying stilled, my bad) but anyway I don't think either one of them were in danger of being stilled because of the amount of the Power they were using. If it was thought they were stilled because of passing through the gateway while holding the Power I'm not sure that would be a strong argument either because there really isn't anything that would suggest the passing would effect the Power in any way. If it was thought that they were stilled because of some retaliation from the Finns how would they beings in a completely different setting be able to still Moiraine and Lanfear the instant they appeared in their world.

 

It just makes a lot more sense just from Lan's response that the act of going through the portal to a different world and that portal being destroyed caused the bond to break when it did. I can definitely see how the whole stilling thing could be an option but I don't buy it simply because stilling or gentling is something that only the extremely powerful (Rand, some of the Forsaken, a select few others) can do without a circle to aid them especially with two of the most powerful female channelers in the world.

[Wolfwalker]

Oddly when I first read the part in book 4 when Moiraine and Lanfear went through the gateway and Lan felt the connection sever I never even contemplated it being because Moiraine had been severed herself I immediately thought it was something to do with the portal to the Finn dimension being destroyed.

 

That was my reaction too. Granted, distance in the "normal" world doesn't affect a Warder bond, but going to a different dimension and having the gateway destroyed might.

 

Even if she did happen to be stilled either as a result of the gateway being destroyed or some other reason, that doesn't mean she would remain that way-

again, I've always figured she had the chance to make a bargin for three things- on of which could be the return of her ability to channel.

On a related note, I've always thought of Cyndane/Lanfear's loss of power to be a result of her encounter with the Finns.

[RJJT86]

Holy crap Luckers' date=' you agree with me on this one!? [/quote']

 

Hmm... strange. I seriously thought the end of the world would have more locusts. Though it must be said that it is obviously you who agrees with me since clearly i posted before you (The internet rearanged the order to make it look otherwise. Google is plotting against me you see. Tragic! Tragic!)

 

It would makes sense that she was stilled in her battle with Lanfear, but personally I think that what severed the connection to Lan, wasn't he loss of the One Power but rather the melting of the gateway. I mean aren't the Finns in like a whole other plane so wouldn't the closing of the access to that plane have severed the bond between she and Lan? That makes just as much sense as stilling to me.

 

When push comes to shove, what you have is that two channelers, channeling as much of the power as they possibly could, in combat with each other, fell into a ter'angreal that subsequently exploded. A result of this is that Moiraine's bond to Lan was severed, something we have only seen happen when an Aes Sedai dies, or is stilled**. Additionally, the next time we see Lanfear she is weaker in the power, which is again an effect we have only seen when a woman has been stilled. Finally, you have two powerful channelers with an angreal no less, held captive by people we have seen be effected by the power in the past.

 

Frankly i think the evidence speaks for itself.

 

**No, intentional releasing of the bond is not included as it does not cause the death-feelings in warders, something we know Land had.

 

But I guess I was just remarking on the similarity between Aes Sedai and Jedi. The Jedi gain knowledge and effeciency in the force through both time, and use, and it's the same with Aes Sedai, though whereas there is no limit to the Force there is a limit to the One Power I guess. I just wish there wasn't. It would make for some very interesting drama.

 

Frankly i dont see it. They are both pseudo-magical abilities... but the connection ends there.

 

Thank you Luckers, you have set me down a correct path now. Your logic has me soundly beaten. So far we have only seen warders experience what Lan has when their Aes Sedai is stilled or killed, so that would make sense. But I feel that Jordan's repetition of how the characters continue to disprove what everyone thought impossible, or finding those things that were thought lost forever, should tell us not to trust to past incidents alone. I would agree that so far we can only assume that she was stilled in her battle with Lanfear, or burned out.

 

And I agree with you, that the One Power and the Force's similarities do rather end at the point that they are psuedo-magical powers.