a few plot inconsitencies

[Areopagitican]

I definitely see it as a plot hole. But the series wouldn't have much in the way of plot if a few female Chosen linked with the most powerful sa'angreal available and leveled every major city (who's going to stop them? The few Aes Sedai acting as advisors to royalty unable to mask the fact that they are channeling, and much weaker than an unaided Forsaken?), so I'm willing to ignore it.

 

This, definitely.

 

At some point the reader has to accept that the author is going to put some restraints on channeling 'just because,' and that those restraints don't make a whole lot of sense. I'd like it if the restraints had a good reason, but I was thinking and I really couldn't say that it would be more fulfilling if Aes Sedai loaded up with some powerful boosters (like the wand) and traveled into the Empresses' Throne Room; guns blazing. Would it be more fulfilling if the Asha'man appeared out of the blue (Dumani Wells style) and wiped out, well, whomever? It'd make more sense, I'm guessing, to have groups of highly mobile channeling teams killing your opposite's head of state but that'd end up being a sucky novel. In any series with magic there is always that acceptance that a more colorful story isn't always synonymous with what makes the most sense.

[Ananta]

I definitely see it as a plot hole. But the series wouldn't have much in the way of plot if a few female Chosen linked with the most powerful sa'angreal available and leveled every major city (who's going to stop them? The few Aes Sedai acting as advisors to royalty unable to mask the fact that they are channeling, and much weaker than an unaided Forsaken?), so I'm willing to ignore it.

 

This, definitely.

 

At some point the reader has to accept that the author is going to put some restraints on channeling 'just because,' and that those restraints don't make a whole lot of sense. I'd like it if the restraints had a good reason, but I was thinking and I really couldn't say that it would be more fulfilling if Aes Sedai loaded up with some powerful boosters (like the wand) and traveled into the Empresses' Throne Room; guns blazing. Would it be more fulfilling if the Asha'man appeared out of the blue (Dumani Wells style) and wiped out, well, whomever? It'd make more sense, I'm guessing, to have groups of highly mobile channeling teams killing your opposite's head of state but that'd end up being a sucky novel. In any series with magic there is always that acceptance that a more colorful story isn't always synonymous with what makes the most sense.

 

I like to call it "plot-induced idiocy by Forsaken."

[Guest qwerty123]

I've just finished reading KoD, tGS and ToM back to back to back and I noticed a few plot inconsistencies which I don't think have been discussed here yet.

 

1. Why didn't any of the Forsaken/Black Ajah break into the sa'angreal storage room in the White Tower and stole everything there was to steal long before Egwene got there in tGS? They certainly had plenty of time to do it and (as was repeatedly mentioned throughout the series) all Forsaken have been looking for any angreal and sa'angreal they could find.

2. Why didn't Mat ask Elayne for a gateway to the Tower of Ghenjei? He definitely knew she could travel as she was the one who made the gateway to Ebou Dar for them. Yet he kept looking for somebody else like Verin or Perrin's asha'man.

3. This one is a nitpick but still... When Egwene and Siuan meet in TAR right before the Seanchan attack on the White tower Egwene tells Siuan to inform the Hall that she wants to meet them in two days. But Siuan and Egwene's meeting are supposedly done in secret from the Hall as the Hall doesn't know that Siuan has Leane's dream ter'angreal. So Siuan couldn't inform the Hall without revealing that fact.

4. Verin makes a gateway for the Band but somehow avoids teaching traveling to any of the Aes Sedai that follow Mat. I suppose that's possible but it would definitely have been a pretty difficult trick to accomplish yet the issue is never addressed at all.

5. Lastly, (and I'm sorry if this sounds silly), but why hasn't Min gotten pregnant yet? Elayne got pregnant on the first try. Min had plenty of chances. so why isn't she pregnant yet?

 

 

Here's one more inconsistency that had been bothering me. I'm half way through ToM and I noticed that Tam is both with Perrin's group and at Tear when Rand returns - how can he be in both places at once? The only mention of anyone from Perrin's group traveling is to Caemlyn for recon...maybe this is explained later in the book?

[Ananta]

 

Here's one more inconsistency that had been bothering me. I'm half way through ToM and I noticed that Tam is both with Perrin's group and at Tear when Rand returns - how can he be in both places at once? The only mention of anyone from Perrin's group traveling is to Caemlyn for recon...maybe this is explained later in the book?

 

It's because timelines are different. Perrin's group is behind Rand's group in the timeline.

 

I don't remember the exact details of how it went, but there are threads discussing this, somewhere here. xD

[Lacanos]

On the topic of stealing the angreal, the Black Ajah apparently tried to gain entry (Liandrin and co) between books 2 and 3 and were rebuffed.

Presumably, Mesaana simply is very bad at reading and/or weaving through wards, and she's not the bravest of the Forsaken. If a circle of 13 came upon her, even with the sa'angreal she'd have problems. Plus, she doesn't need it *that much* for her current plans. She has some form of angreal presumably (as she traded Graendal one), so I guess she can make do?

[Swithin]

As for Mat not asking Elayne for a gateway, it made sense to me. She's the Queen of Andor now, after all, and while he's comfortable with her on a personal level, on issues of business and favors he negotiates with her pretty professionally (and gives her a good amount of respect in the process.) He visits as a friend, but does business as a representative of the Band. He's too smart a horse-trader to ask the queen for personal favors, especially if it could enter the deal for his dragons, when there are plenty of other people who could perform the same service in Caemlyn (even if it is for a mission to "save the world".)

 

[edit:] Oh yeah, there's also her pregnancy. It's possible he considered asking before he found out she was expecting. Mat has seen just how exhausting channeling can be, and he seems like the kind of guy who wouldn't ask a pregnant lady (however familiar he is with her) to perform a task which requires physical/mental exertion.

[Luckers]

1. Why didn't any of the Forsaken/Black Ajah break into the sa'angreal storage room in the White Tower and stole everything there was to steal long before Egwene got there in tGS? They certainly had plenty of time to do it and (as was repeatedly mentioned throughout the series) all Forsaken have been looking for any angreal and sa'angreal they could find.

 

They were warded. If entered a dozen sisters and warders would have been on them in a second. Mesaana explains this.

 

Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. "The White Tower now has guards and wards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everything four times each day."

 

Now if Mesaana didn't simply travel in there we can conclude that that too would have set off the wards. Egwene didn't need to worry about that as the sisters and gaiden responsible for responding would have been too busy fighting the Seanchan.

 

I have to disagree heavily on that. "The White Tower now has guards and wards on" implies they were not there before Egwene took power. The OP's question refers to what happened before Egwene got there.

 

 

The Mesaana quote is from Lord of Chaos. Moreover it does not mean that there were no protections in place prior to this change, just that the White Tower had increased those protections. Indeed, we know they had protections in place as they foiled Liandrin and her crew. It was likely Liandrin's attempt that made the Tower increase their protections.

 

What's more, is when Fain was there (in the time period the OP referred to), the guard was an Accepted, and the triggered ward drew precisely one Aes Sedai who was Black Ajah. Hardly dangerous to the Forsaken.

 

And as I pointed out above, the Accepted was not the guard, she was the one responsible for maintaining the wards and sounding the alarm if they were triggered. Had she done her job Fain would have been surrounded by a dozen sisters and gaiden--which, as has been stated over and over would be dangerous even to one of the Forsaken.

 

And that's even presuming that the dagger was kept with the sa'angreal, and that the defenses were the same.

 

Even after the wards were installed, we have Cadsuane, likely with an angreal, using custom hand created wards of incredible intricacy being broken. By a person with diminished intellect thanks to Compulsion (Elza) with a bit of help from the Dark One's own avatar who appears able to be wherever he wants. I don't think the wards would give them much in the way of trouble.

 

Different wards, and tied off. We've known wards can be spun through since book six, but that it is both difficult, and if the wards are being monitered (as these were--that was the Accepted job) it is detectable, which also would have caused the alarm to be raised.

 

If entered a dozen sisters and warders would have been on them in a second.

A second? Really? Now, I'm sorry for being rude here, but did you happen to see the Aes Sedai reaction to the Seanchan? There were not dozens of sisters and wardens on them "in a second". And this was after Egwene's rise to the Amyrlin Seat. One thing Aes Sedai do not seem to be is prepared. I'd also have to mention that the Forsaken could probably loot an entire room within a minute at most with a gateway and weaves of air. They can hide the fact they are channeling, and use Compulsion on people checking if anything is wrong.

 

There was not a ward to warn the Aes Sedai the Seanchan were coming, nor a prepared response in place--which there was with the angreal and sa'angreal. I would also point out here that the original point was whether this was a plot inconsistancy--whether you think Mesaana a coward for not risking gating in and trying to loot the room before the Aes Sedai responded is irrelevant--the point is that she had a reason not to do so--the danger. Ergo her not doing so when Egwene did is not an inconsistancy.

 

I would point out also that a large part of her reasoning was that she did not want the Aes Sedai to learn of her presense at that point in the series--and it is not as simple as 'stunning a guard'.

 

As a final note, tacking on an appology to rudeness is not a shield against forum policy. Don't let me see you trying that again.

[Ananta]

The Mesaana quote is from Lord of Chaos. Moreover it does not mean that there were no protections in place prior to this change, just that the White Tower had increased those protections. Indeed, we know they had protections in place as they foiled Liandrin and her crew. It was likely Liandrin's attempt that made the Tower increase their protections.

 

 

And as I pointed out above, the Accepted was not the guard, she was the one responsible for maintaining the wards and sounding the alarm if they were triggered. Had she done her job Fain would have been surrounded by a dozen sisters and gaiden--which, as has been stated over and over would be dangerous even to one of the Forsaken.

 

And that's even presuming that the dagger was kept with the sa'angreal, and that the defenses were the same.

 

 

Different wards, and tied off. We've known wards can be spun through since book six, but that it is both difficult, and if the wards are being monitered (as these were--that was the Accepted job) it is detectable, which also would have caused the alarm to be raised.

 

There was not a ward to warn the Aes Sedai the Seanchan were coming, nor a prepared response in place--which there was with the angreal and sa'angreal. I would also point out here that the original point was whether this was a plot inconsistancy--whether you think Mesaana a coward for not risking gating in and trying to loot the room before the Aes Sedai responded is irrelevant--the point is that she had a reason not to do so--the danger. Ergo her not doing so when Egwene did is not an inconsistancy.

 

I would point out also that a large part of her reasoning was that she did not want the Aes Sedai to learn of her presense at that point in the series--and it is not as simple as 'stunning a guard'.

 

As a final note, tacking on an appology to rudeness is not a shield against forum policy. Don't let me see you trying that again.

 

 

Haha, you should just drop this issue and accept that it's mostly plot-induced idiocy by Forsaken. :x I'm sure Mesaana could figure out a place to stash the items where they would be easily available to her. Something a bit more convenient than White Tower's warehouse.

 

Liandrin didn't have Travelling, so she had to walk out of the Tower. This is why the Aes Sedai "foiled" Liandrin and her crew.

 

Although I agree Mesaana had reason not to do the theft herself, the danger, I find it very feeble excuse. I would compare it to not leaving your house because you're afraid you might be hit by a lightning. I'm also certain she could have teached Travelling to one of the Black Sisters, and have her do the job if she wanted to minimize the risks for her person.

 

White Tower is huge. Normal Aes Sedai didn't have Travelling. Even if the wards go off, there's no way the Aes Sedai would get there in time, Mesaana could just grab few angreals and Travel to safety. If she didn't want to be found out, she could easily have pinned it on the Black Sisters, no one would even think there's a Forsaken in the tower. Hell, they had hard time believing that Black Ajah existed.

 

I also think that if one of the Aes Sedai walked up to that Accepted guarding the room, and told her to bugger off, she would. Leaving the Black Ajah free to steal what they want. This is why I wonder how Liandrin's crew managed to get caught at all. (Or I may have missed something in the books where they explain this more carefully...)

[fikkie77]

An important note: the ruby hilted dagger was not stored at the same place as the *angreal. That also means that security measures were different.

It was still strikingly easy for Egwene to enter the room though.

[Ananta]

An important note: the ruby hilted dagger was not stored at the same place as the *angreal. That also means that security measures were different.

It was still strikingly easy for Egwene to enter the room though.

 

I think that entering the room with Travelling was easy because Aes Sedai hadn't rediscovered Travelling yet. It's hard to make wards against something that you don't know exists.

 

 

EDIT: Well, actually, few of the Tower Aes Sedai knew how to Travel, Elaida included.

[Luckers]

Haha, you should just drop this issue and accept that it's mostly plot-induced idiocy by Forsaken.

 

Thanks for the advice but I think I'll stick to my explanation. Anyone breaching that room would have triggered the wards bringing Aes Sedai down on them in moments. The risk of both exposure and capture were too great to be chanced. At leats from Mesaana's perspective.

[Shadowfaxx]

I've just finished reading KoD, tGS and ToM back to back to back and I noticed a few plot inconsistencies which I don't think have been discussed here yet.

 

1. Why didn't any of the Forsaken/Black Ajah break into the sa'angreal storage room in the White Tower and stole everything there was to steal long before Egwene got there in tGS? They certainly had plenty of time to do it and (as was repeatedly mentioned throughout the series) all Forsaken have been looking for any angreal and sa'angreal they could find.

 

Pardon me if I'm wrong... I've read so many books they're all running together.

 

They did. Black Ajah stole dream ter'angreal way back when (or was that recent), and I'm pretty sure Mesaana's been pilfering a few at a time. Maybe it just hasn't been mentioned; there are an awful lot of ter'angreals in the White Tower's storage.

[Moogle]

An important note: the ruby hilted dagger was not stored at the same place as the *angreal. That also means that security measures were different.

It was still strikingly easy for Egwene to enter the room though.

 

I think that entering the room with Travelling was easy because Aes Sedai hadn't rediscovered Travelling yet. It's hard to make wards against something that you don't know exists.

 

Isn't it impossible to ward against Travelling, anyways? I thought that was the reason Dreamspikes were so valuable. Or are they valuable mainly because you can actually give a "password" to people to let them in and still be guarded?

 

I would point out also that a large part of her reasoning was that she did not want the Aes Sedai to learn of her presense at that point in the series--and it is not as simple as 'stunning a guard'.

 

I disagree. You say that the guard would know the instant the wards were triggered, and raise the alarm. That's precisely where Compulsion comes in. Lanfear was able to mask (or weaken, since she was playing the part of Else, I'm not entirely sure what she did) her ability to channel as detected by other women, put on an illusion, and walk through the Tower without fear. Why would it be so hard to go to to the guard and simply use Compulsion on them? Moghedien has shown you can make people forget you were ever there, and if you are using an illusion on yourself, there's not much of a threat of being recognized if the person happens to be as willful and does remember. Heck, you can even be invisible if you want, albeit with some weird ripples. I will admit to not being 100% on this, but I doubt that the corridor where the room to the angreals are is frequented by anyone very often. Very little threat of detection, and you could always just use Compulsion on anyone who walks by. It's a ridiculously powerful weave that takes hardly any time to use.

 

Now, you do have an argument with Mesaana, but that does NOT explain why Lanfear or Grandael did not do this. Lanfear in particular had no problem encroaching on Mesaana's territory, as proven with the Else stunt.

 

I see very little threat of detection, or much danger at all. The Forsaken are more powerful than most sisters alive, and once they got their hands on a sa'angreal, they would effectively be unstoppable. They could not be shielded (without a circle, and those take a good bit of preparation) and they would have enough power to destroy a fair chunk of the White Tower itself. Even before they got a sa'angreal, they could hide quite effectively in an invisibility web with their ability to channel hidden. I see very few excuses for Lanfear/Grandael/Moghedien to not have stolen some angreal.

[moratcorlm]

Isn't it impossible to ward against Travelling, anyways? I thought that was the reason Dreamspikes were so valuable. Or are they valuable mainly because you can actually give a "password" to people to let them in and still be guarded?

"Ward" seems to be a term covering a very expansive range of defensive measures, from physically blocking even gas exchange to simple alarm triggers, and even active defenses like what Rand placed on Callandor. You're right that no wards (at least that we've seen) can stop a gateway from being formed, but there are defenses shown that use the latter two, like those Sammael had in Illian (and possibly Rahvin in Caemlyn).

I would have Illian warded in boxes, so if a man even thought of channeling, I’d know right where he was, and I would burn even the ground to ash before he had time to take a breath.

Presumably the Aes Sedai know how to create similar defenses.

[Majsju]

Regarding Mat not asking Elayne for a gateway, he had promised Verin to wait in Caemlyn for thirty days if he chose to not open her letter. He left for TOG on day thirtyone.

[moratcorlm]

He left after that. We know that he left for the Tower of Ghenjei on the same day Perrin Traveled to Merrilor in TOM53. From Perrin's ta'veren vision in that chapter, we know that Rand was meeting with the Borderlanders, which he did not do until the day he arrived at Merrilor; from Egwene's POV in TOM56, we know Perrin was setting up camp just before Rand arrived. Now, there is absolutely no way that was only 30 days after Verin moved him to Caemlyn. Even moving that event as far forward as possible, we know that the dragon prototype was tested before Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, 30 days before Merrilor, and that Mat had already been in Caemlyn for nearly a week at that point at the bare minimum.

 

No, Mat let the deadline come and go for some reason we have not yet learned.

[Majsju]

Brandon seems to think otherwise...

And how much time has past since Mat met Verin and the trio left for the Tower of Ghenjei? 30 days?

Mat set aside the letter and didn’t open it for the required number of days. The next day he left for the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

[moratcorlm]

That's simply incompatible with what he wrote. That seems to flat-out invalidate several things written in TOM51-53 and 56. I'll look at it some more tomorrow. I've updated my calendar with that as the priority, though.

[Terez]

Brandon don't do timelines too good.

[Majsju]

Brandon don't do timelines too good.

 

I know, but the difference here is that Brandon first gives an exact answer, then on the following timeline question he says that we should figure it out. Also, this is not an answer given at a signing, but one given during a Q&A where he could sit at home, picking which questions to answer, and check his notes to see that he got them correct.

 

And as I wrote that i realised that you could have meant that Brandon messes up timelines in the book, rather than in Q&As

[Fel]

Haha, you should just drop this issue and accept that it's mostly plot-induced idiocy by Forsaken.

 

Thanks for the advice but I think I'll stick to my explanation. Anyone breaching that room would have triggered the wards bringing Aes Sedai down on them in moments. The risk of both exposure and capture were too great to be chanced. At leats from Mesaana's perspective.

How much time do you think that it would have taken for any of them to reach through a gateway right after it opened, grab the fluted rod and close the gateway? I honestly can't see that taking more than a few seconds. If she did not want to grab them physically, she could have just channeled to suck out everything in the room in that same time combined with a wall to block the door and/or kill the Accepted outside. I can't see a response for, at BEST, a few minutes and more likely 10-15 minutes unless the guards were close.

 

There is no reason she would be exposed at all and she would have the most powerful female sa'angreal known to the tower. Yes, the Tower would know that one of the Forsaken/Black Ajah took it, but would have no way to know who it was or where they went. Where is the risk? The reward is to be the most powerful female channeler in the land, by far, which seems to be more than worth the very very minimal risk.

 

I think the plot-induced forsaken idiocy is the only real answer now that we know travelling to the room was possible (my previous hope was that some ancient ward against travelling or chanelling still held for that room).

[mossman87]

Haha, you should just drop this issue and accept that it's mostly plot-induced idiocy by Forsaken.

 

Thanks for the advice but I think I'll stick to my explanation. Anyone breaching that room would have triggered the wards bringing Aes Sedai down on them in moments. The risk of both exposure and capture were too great to be chanced. At leats from Mesaana's perspective.

How much time do you think that it would have taken for any of them to reach through a gateway right after it opened, grab the fluted rod and close the gateway? I honestly can't see that taking more than a few seconds. If she did not want to grab them physically, she could have just channeled to suck out everything in the room in that same time combined with a wall to block the door and/or kill the Accepted outside. I can't see a response for, at BEST, a few minutes and more likely 10-15 minutes unless the guards were close.

 

There is no reason she would be exposed at all and she would have the most powerful female sa'angreal known to the tower. Yes, the Tower would know that one of the Forsaken/Black Ajah took it, but would have no way to know who it was or where they went. Where is the risk? The reward is to be the most powerful female channeler in the land, by far, which seems to be more than worth the very very minimal risk.

 

I think the plot-induced forsaken idiocy is the only real answer now that we know travelling to the room was possible (my previous hope was that some ancient ward against travelling or chanelling still held for that room).

 

Do you forget she was raped because she was too afraid to fight at the Cleansing? Yet this timid teacher has balls of steel to steal hundreds of *angreal in warded rooms in the Tower? right.

[Fel]

Do you forget she was raped because she was too afraid to fight at the Cleansing? Yet this timid teacher has balls of steel to steal hundreds of *angreal in warded rooms in the Tower? right.

Very different circumstances. The cleansing involved 2 people chanelling more of the power than anyone in history. You'd have to be slightly crazy NOT to be afraid of that.

 

She was not afraid to set up the ambush in Tel'ahranoid in this book and not afraid to get personally involved in it. And, just by setting up base in the Tower, she showed that she was not afraid of the modern Aes Sedai. She was by no means "timid" about dealing with modern Aes Sedai.

 

A quick raid to steal things would pose practically zero risk and have enormous rewards. Forget about stealing hundreds of angreal...just take the fluted rod.

[wvlr2]

Do you forget she was raped because she was too afraid to fight at the Cleansing? Yet this timid teacher has balls of steel to steal hundreds of *angreal in warded rooms in the Tower? right.

 

Actually, I do not think that we ever got an explanation on why she was not at the Clensing. Was she just afraid or was she doing something else? Inquiring minds would like to know.