Rand's Waaayy too Strong

[babuada]

I doubt Rand is any more stronger than before.

I think none of the abilities we see in Rand is new. He is somehow channelling Light (the essence of One Power). He did that once in TEoTW. I also think his channeling at Maradon reminds exactly of Tarwin's Gap fight. Somehow he got access to a well like the Eye. All effects he is showing now was already there in LTT. We know LTT was called Lord of the Morning, my guess is because he brought sunlight. And he played part in seed singing crop growing, etc. So, growing apples is nothing new to him. Most of all he was loved by people. I can easily see people loving him if he brought this kind of effect.

[moratcorlm]

I also think his channeling at Maradon reminds exactly of Tarwin's Gap fight. Somehow he got access to a well like the Eye.

You do know that there is no functional difference between a well of untainted saidin and the True Source now that saidin is clean, right? It's not like Rand could channel more (i.e., at a larger rate) from the Eye than he could from the True Source at the time.

[babuada]

I also think his channeling at Maradon reminds exactly of Tarwin's Gap fight. Somehow he got access to a well like the Eye.

You do know that there is no functional difference between a well of untainted saidin and the True Source now that saidin is clean, right? It's not like Rand could channel more (i.e., at a larger rate) from the Eye than he could from the True Source at the time.

I actually doubt that. The way creator spoke to Rand when he was channeling Light it seems the essence of saidin is different from unstained saidin (I could be wrong though, we do not have any POV from Rand5.0). And channelling from a well has a definite advantage over channeling directly from True source. When you channel from True source you have to fight constantly with the source. When you channel from a well like Eye we do not see Rand doing any fighting to get the power. Without that fighting you can put your whole effort in channeling instead.

[moratcorlm]

The way creator spoke to Rand

Uncertain.

he was channeling Light

There is nothing that indicates he was channeling "Light". He was channeling untainted saidin.

When you channel from True source you have to fight constantly with the source. When you channel from a well like Eye we do not see Rand doing any fighting to get the power. Without that fighting you can put your whole effort in channeling instead.

There was no sense of struggle in any of Rand's early channeling, because it was fully instinctual. It's only after he learns to seize saidin deliberately, and identify a particular weave he's forming, that he reflects on the struggle involved.

[babuada]

The way creator spoke to Rand

Uncertain.

Agree. But the description of Light and the tone in Rand's POV mostlikely points out to creator.

he was channeling Light

There is nothing that indicates he was channeling "Light". He was channeling untainted saidin.

In none of his subsequent fight, and he has a lot, he experienced such bright Light inside him. His POV shows the difference from channeling ordinary Saidin to channeling Light. He channeled a lot of untainted Saidin after WH and we have a lot of his POV.

When you channel from True source you have to fight constantly with the source. When you channel from a well like Eye we do not see Rand doing any fighting to get the power. Without that fighting you can put your whole effort in channeling instead.

There was no sense of struggle in any of Rand's early channeling, because it was fully instinctual. It's only after he learns to seize saidin deliberately, and identify a particular weave he's forming, that he reflects on the struggle involved.

If by fully instinctual you mean unconcious channeling then yes he did not have to fight. But those were rather small use. The Eye was the first large scale use where he conciously channeled. So, we can be fairly certain that channeling from well experience would be similar to Eye. And the fight is with the source. Well is not source. It is like a raging river vs a pool. Every POV description of holding the source proves that.

[johthohar]

Johthohar, I was totally making a DBZ refrence, I hear Vegeta in my head everytime anyone mentions power levels, and just couldn't help myself. I also knew I can't be the only nerd internet that would think that was funny.

 

Haha! My brother's and I all loved that show growing up. We still all argue over who's the strongest at any given point and play DBZ Boudokai Tenkaichi on PS2 all the time. Damnit. Now anytime I read Rand frustrating someone in the book I'm gonna picture Goku and hear that Vageta inner voice. Thanks for that.

[johthohar]

If by fully instinctual you mean unconcious channeling then yes he did not have to fight. But those were rather small use. The Eye was the first large scale use where he conciously channeled. So, we can be fairly certain that channeling from well experience would be similar to Eye. And the fight is with the source. Well is not source. It is like a raging river vs a pool. Every POV description of holding the source proves that.

 

Rand is not channeling with any kind of knowledge of what he is doing. He's had no training whatsoever and its the first time he is knowingly holding the One Power. Like moratcorlm said, it was instinctual.

 

As too all this "light power" nonsense. I don't know why people keep presenting it as fact or the next thing to it. It's pure conjecture with absolutely no evidence.

 

@moratcorlm: I think it was poor word choice when you said there was no functional difference between channeling untainted Saidin and the True Power. First of all, there are weaves that can only be created using the True Power that are impossible with the One Power. And secondly, Rand notes how much more powerful he feels the first time he channels the True Power. I don't know what point you were trying to make. I only skimmed this page. Maybe I misread your post.

[moratcorlm]

The True Source, whence comes the One Power; not the True Power.

[johthohar]

The True Source, whence comes the One Power; not the True Power.

See... I told you I probably read too fast. My mistake.

[Entreri]

LTT and Ishamael were equal in strength but not in skill. Demandred was very close on both fronts to LTT.

 

 

Rand however is on another level now. He completely wrecked an massive army of Trollocs possibly number close to 1/2 million by himself, without any aid. "An army of channellers" and Asha'man Naeff could not count the number of weaves...Rand is a titan.

 

 

He would have to be in order to face what comes, beside the Dark One, there is Shadar Haran, Ishamael wielding the TP, Fain with his powers...

[moratcorlm]

LTT and Ishamael were equal in strength but not in skill. [...] Demandred was very close on both fronts to LTT.

Source?

number close to 1/2 million by himself

Source?

[Entreri]

LTT and Ishamael were equal in strength but not in skill. [...] Demandred was very close on both fronts to LTT.

Source?

number close to 1/2 million by himself

Source?

 

#1 some speculation, however is pretty evident from the books and the Guide.

 

#2 speculation.

 

#2: Ituralde is one of five great captains. Even Bashere is impressed at what he has accomplished and Rand is amazed. Keep in mind that Ituralde completely annihilated a massive Seanchan army of 100,000 that included damane.

 

Ituralde may be the best of the great captains and in his opinion: "Light! Ituralde whispered. "If that force gets past us, there won't be anything in Saldaea, Andor or Arad Doman that can stop it. Please tell me the Lord Dragon made peace with the Seanchan, as he promised?"

 

He believes that those nations would be insufficient to stop this army of Trollocs and that they would need the Seanchan. Ituralde also had great successes against the Trollocs with a relatively tiny human force, so his words would carry even more weight.

 

So clearly the Trolloc force has to number much much greater than 100,000 for someone like Ituralde to come to this conclusion. It has to be truly titanic in size for him to say that. Think of the size of the army Saldaea can field (at least 50,000 if not up to 100,000...Borderlander army is 250,000 and Queen did not take all her force), Andor should be able to field around 100,000, Arad Doman (probably 50,000).

 

Even a force of 200,000 Trollocs would be insufficient to plow through Andor, Saldaea and Arad Domon or even a force of 300,000 Trollocs...since at each stage of battle the Trollocs would have many casualties. This was a truly titanic force of Trollocs that the DR defeated.

 

Someone like Perrin easily defeated 50,000 Trollocs with somewhat similar number of warriors. Men have an advantage against similar number of Trollocs, due to tactics and channelers.

 

According to Rand: "He(Dark One) struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit". So my estimate was 1/2 million Trolloc army, that would certainly plow through any resistance offered by Andor, Saldea and Arad Domon.

[RedVanilla]

I think it said he killed enough that it made a very tall wall of bodies, and that the ground was vibrating with running Trollocs, so I'm thinking half a million, once you add in the Dragkar, is probably about right.

 

 

 

And the idea of Rand as Goku is kind of funny. I wonder if Rand eats like him?

[babuada]

If by fully instinctual you mean unconcious channeling then yes he did not have to fight. But those were rather small use. The Eye was the first large scale use where he conciously channeled. So, we can be fairly certain that channeling from well experience would be similar to Eye. And the fight is with the source. Well is not source. It is like a raging river vs a pool. Every POV description of holding the source proves that.

 

Rand is not channeling with any kind of knowledge of what he is doing. He's had no training whatsoever and its the first time he is knowingly holding the One Power. Like moratcorlm said, it was instinctual.

The weaving is instinctual, drawing the power is not as you pointed out. From Rand's POV, he consciously grabs the power cordand draws from it. Weaving never requires any fight for Saidin, nor for Saidar. It is grabing the source and drawing from it that requires the fight for Saidin. This is the reason I think Rand was channeling from a well in Maradon and that explains part of his efficiency without resorting to superman theory.

As too all this "light power" nonsense. I don't know why people keep presenting it as fact or the next thing to it. It's pure conjecture with absolutely no evidence.

Tell me one more incidence from Rand's POV after Eye where he fills like filled with Light and some voice speaks to him. Whatever he was channeling from the eye was no ordinary OP. That is why Moraine called it "essence of Saidin", not just untainted Saidin. "Essence" lilerally means some concentrated form.

[moratcorlm]

So clearly the Trolloc force has to number much much greater than 100,000 for someone like Ituralde to come to this conclusion. It has to be truly titanic in size for him to say that. Think of the size of the army Saldaea can field (at least 50,000 if not up to 100,000...Borderlander army is 250,000 and Queen did not take all her force), Andor should be able to field around 100,000, Arad Doman (probably 50,000).

I'm sure your speculation about the size of the Trolloc horde is correct; it was clearly enormous. I'm just not sure about how many Rand killed there, because:

Waves of Trollocs broke, the drums faltering. Entire legions of them turned and fled, stumbling up the hillside and over one another, fleeing back toward the Blight.

He saved Maradon – for a time. I agree he killed many tens of thousands certainly, but that he annihilated the entire half million, million+, whatever it may be army is I think a reach with what we know.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Rand did get stronger after VoG in my opinion. As I understand things the capacity for channelling is defined by some "pathway" in mind or soul. The larger the opening the more power can be channelled. We have seen evidence that it is possible to destroy the pathway as well as to reopen it, so why shouldn't it be possible for the opening to get larger than it was?

[Arc]

I was about to post this on the quick questions board, but i figured i might just as well post it here. it's just a thought.

 

the strength of male Channelers and the max. capacity of saidin they can hold is said to increase irregularly on moments of intense use of the OP. might this mean that: when Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal at the end of TGS (Veins of Gold), by drawing so much of the power to make the accesskey and the sa'angreal explode, his powerlevel gained equal greatness?

Could this be the explanation for Rands massive capacity in ToM?

 

I suspect a lot of people already thought of this, and i didn't read all of the posts above, but still i wonder if it could be as simple as that?

i just don't like the idea of Rand becoming too super-human-like with getting sudden acces to a sort of Heavenly counterpart for the TP, like has been said on a lot of discussions.

[NetSlider]

There's a theory that Rand's sword is an angreal. Just sayin.

 

 

No offence, but this is not a very good theory.

 

"LTT and Ishamael were equal in strength but not in skill. [...] Demandred was very close on both fronts to LTT."

 

From what I remember, Ishy was close behind LTT in strengh, not skill. I would even go further and say that it is logical to say that most people in AoL that channeled had somewhat equal skill (besides special talents that is).

 

The speculation on 1/2 mil of trollocs is not bad one, i think, but I would argue that there is a lot more than 1/2 mil. Rand has how many Aiel (at least 250K from what I remember if not a lot more than that). I'd say 1 to 2 Aiel vs. Trollocs is an easy win for Aiel, IMO. So, my guess, in order for light to be pressed hard, there has to be around 3-5 mil of Trollocs coming from the blight, if there to be a direct confrontation of armies.

[mbuehner]

There's a theory that Rand's sword is an angreal. Just sayin.

 

 

No offence, but this is not a very good theory.

 

 

A better supported theory than Rand channeling the spirit of Christmas or whatever its supposed to be.

 

Even so, I never like the theory myself but its out there and I have to admit it was what crossed my mind when Rand went nuts on those Trollocs.

[NetSlider]

There's a theory that Rand's sword is an angreal. Just sayin.

 

 

No offence, but this is not a very good theory.

 

 

A better supported theory than Rand channeling the spirit of Christmas or whatever its supposed to be.

 

Even so, I never like the theory myself but its out there and I have to admit it was what crossed my mind when Rand went nuts on those Trollocs.

 

 

We know that the sword is special b/c it belonged to Hawkwing. I really doubt it's an object of power.

 

I do agree that when I read "Storm of Light" I was a bit confused at the amount of power and the amount of destruction Rand did without burning out. I thought of angreal that must be involved but nothing we saw hints at it. The little Fatman came to mind, but it seems to be not enough and besides, it's missing anyway. I personally think that Rand is in a league of his own now and no one can stand with him toe to toe (besides DO). After all, he is more than LLT, as was state many times before now, as now he remembers past lives and understands his place in the greater picture. Plus, don't men increase in power in "jumps?" It would be fitting for Rand to make a big jump after "Veins of Gold."

[moratcorlm]

the strength of male Channelers and the max. capacity of saidin they can hold is said to increase irregularly on moments of intense use of the OP. might this mean that: when Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal at the end of TGS (Veins of Gold), by drawing so much of the power to make the accesskey and the sa'angreal explode, his powerlevel gained equal greatness?

Two points. First, the capacity of channelers can be forced to an artificially high level while they're still immature, but not beyond their innate maximum strength. So, for instance, drawing on the Choedan Kal during his fight with Asmodean likely increased Rand's strength by quite a bit, as did the Cleansing, but Lews Therin Telamon was as strong as a man could be, as strong as Ishamael, slightly stronger than Aginor or Demandred, etc., and nothing Rand did could elevate him beyond that. The Cleansing probably forced Nynaeve to her personal maximum, too, but it didn't make her as powerful as Lanfear. Second, Rand didn't 'blow out' the sa'angreal; he deliberately destroyed it. Actually, what you describe comes much closer to what happened to the female Choedan Kal during the Cleansing, and we've seen no signs it had any such effect on Nynaeve.

[Brevsparv]

the strength of male Channelers and the max. capacity of saidin they can hold is said to increase irregularly on moments of intense use of the OP. might this mean that: when Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal at the end of TGS (Veins of Gold), by drawing so much of the power to make the accesskey and the sa'angreal explode, his powerlevel gained equal greatness?

Two points. First, the capacity of channelers can be forced to an artificially high level while they're still immature, but not beyond their innate maximum strength. So, for instance, drawing on the Choedan Kal during his fight with Asmodean likely increased Rand's strength by quite a bit, as did the Cleansing, but Lews Therin Telamon was as strong as a man could be, as strong as Ishamael, slightly stronger than Aginor or Demandred, etc., and nothing Rand did could elevate him beyond that. The Cleansing probably forced Nynaeve to her personal maximum, too, but it didn't make her as powerful as Lanfear. Second, Rand didn't 'blow out' the sa'angreal; he deliberately destroyed it. Actually, what you describe comes much closer to what happened to the female Choedan Kal during the Cleansing, and we've seen no signs it had any such effect on Nynaeve.

 

If my memory isn't failing (it has a habit of doing so from time to time) the strength of female channelers in the OP is increasing slowly all the time until they have reached their maximum while the males have jumps. Also, we don't know if LTT was as strong has a man could be.

 

Another wild speculation: Rand had a certain strength before VOG. LTT had also a certain strength, probably about the same as Rands. After VOG their strengths might have joined each other, making Rand twice as strong as he was before VOG (and maybe twice as skilled too?).

[moratcorlm]

If my memory isn't failing (it has a habit of doing so from time to time) the strength of female channelers in the OP is increasing slowly all the time until they have reached their maximum while the males have jumps.

Right, this is ordinarily the case. But forcing (what Arc was talking about with "intense usage") steepens the slope in females and probably induces jumps in males, which seem to amount to the same thing in practice.

Also, we don't know if LTT was as strong has a man could be.

This is true, but I think it's a reasonable assumption to make.

Another wild speculation: Rand had a certain strength before VOG. LTT had also a certain strength, probably about the same as Rands. After VOG their strengths might have joined each other, making Rand twice as strong as he was before VOG (and maybe twice as skilled too?).

But Rand and Lews Therin are the same person, and, more to the point, always were. They didn't become 'fused' in VOG, which might result in a doubling of power; rather, Rand fully integrated Lews's memories into himself.

[capeta]

Also, we don't know if LTT was as strong has a man could be.

This is true, but I think it's a reasonable assumption to make.

 

If I recall right didn't the forsaken and everyone believe that Lanfear was at the female max? Yet then along comes Alivia who is stronger. we even have Lanfear(as Cyndane) saying that she is stronger and she didn't think that possible.

 

My point being that there is no Maximum. There is no way of comparing people throughout time. People are spun out with what power the pattern needs. To set an arbitrary maximum doesn't make sense. The best you can say is that rand is probably the strongest male channeler since Lewis Therin. Even then we don't know if rand is equal or stronger than he was as Lewis Therin. We have seen him beat Ishamael and every forsaken he has gone toe to toe with. The fights haven't required him to use his max strength and the encounters haven't really given us a measure, so we don't even know if he was as strong as Therin before Veins of Gold.

 

 

-Cap

[capuga]

Also, we don't know if LTT was as strong has a man could be.

This is true, but I think it's a reasonable assumption to make.

 

If I recall right didn't the forsaken and everyone believe that Lanfear was at the female max? Yet then along comes Alivia who is stronger. we even have Lanfear(as Cyndane) saying that she is stronger and she didn't think that possible.

My point being that there is no Maximum. There is no way of comparing people throughout time. People are spun out with what power the pattern needs. To set an arbitrary maximum doesn't make sense. The best you can say is that rand is probably the strongest male channeler since Lewis Therin. Even then we don't know if rand is equal or stronger than he was as Lewis Therin. We have seen him beat Ishamael and every forsaken he has gone toe to toe with. The fights haven't required him to use his max strength and the encounters haven't really given us a measure, so we don't even know if he was as strong as Therin before Veins of Gold.

 

 

-Cap

 

This quote is off the top of my head but it should be very close to the actual quote - She (Alivia) was stronger than she (Lanfear/Cyndane) was before the Aelfinn held her. That was impossible. No-one could be stronger. She must have an angreal."

 

We know that Alivia did, in fact, have an angreal. That is why she was stronger than Lanfear and Lanfear correctly deduced this. Alivia's unaided potential in not as high as Lanfear's.

 

I still believe that there is a knowable maximum limit. We have Lanfear's thoughts on the issue and we also have a quote later where the Aes Sedai think that it is possible that Sharina will become as strong as it is possible to be. Both Lanfear's and the current age Aes Sedai's thoughts strongly imply that there is a knowable maximum limit. Lanfear was likely at this limit for women and it is not too much of a stretch to think that Rand/LTT was at the maximum for men.