The Future of the Aiel

[gary0044187]

Just ignore it if it has been discussed already,

 

but I think that the future the pillar ter-angreal showed is completely unrealistic. White Tower and Black Tower falling to the damane? Men and women working together who could link creating the most powerful circles? Even one full circle of seventy-two total channelers (female and male) should be enough to completely wipe Seanchan along with their damane no matter how many damane they would have. Channelers in the circle would simply surround them selfs with a wall of air and then lay destruction on Seanchan. Since damane cannot link they would be to weak to shield the circle or cut the incoming weaves and their separate attacks would be to week to penetrate the protective wall of air that the circle would surround itself with. So how could they be winning?

 

I think what doomed the white and black towers in this future were the fact that they were separate entities and were not working together. One point RJ has always driven home was the fact that when people work together they are much stronger then when they work apart.

 

Yes, but what about the bonded Aes Sedai and Ashaman? Weren't they working together?

 

Well yes, but the impression I got from the viewings were that the 2 towers themselves were seperate and did not work together. I think the passage about how the Ashaman still fought but were underground showed this. As for the bonded channelers, perhaps Egwene forced Rand to let the Aes Sedai be free of the bond. Then failed to build bridges between the two groups in order to bring them together. The Men cant link so they are on even footing with the damane in that respect. As for the Aes Sedai, well even under Egwene thay never feel they are wrong, so hubris probably does them in. Unfortunately we wont find out because im pretty sure Avi will avert this futre.

viewings show the black tower destroyed. we do not know that that was because of the seanchan or because of the current troubles. it very well could have been destroyed during the battle between the light side AS and AM and the dark side AS and AM in AMoL.

[Malruhn]

Nobody is mentioning the Tinkers - the "true Aiel". Are THEY the remnant of a remnant?

[Exy]

Nobody is mentioning the Tinkers - the "true Aiel". Are THEY the remnant of a remnant?

I don't think they're the true Aiel. The "true Aiel" were the ones who stayed true to all their oaths -- the Jenn Aiel. And they're all dead.

 

The Tinkers stuck to the Way of the Leaf, but they abandoned their oath to protect the artifacts the Aes Sedai entrusted them with. The society we now call the Aiel abandoned the Way of the Leaf, but continued on protecting the items of the power until they ensconced them safely at Rhuidean (or at least, their protection was what permitted the Jenn to do so.)

[ranjitb]

The so-called "True" Aiel seem like self-righteous morally superior assholes to me in most cases.

With no less of an agenda and "This is the one-true way and any disagreement is BLASPHEMY ! BLAAAAASPHEMMMMMMMMY" than any other monolithic society.

 

At least with the modern day Aiel (despite their reverence for a militaristic culture) you don't HAVE to take up arms if you don't want to. Indeed, they seem to accord their artisans, and holdmistresses, and hunter/gatherer types a great deal of respect.

I'd hope that they get to STAY that way, where the people are accorded at least a modicum of choice in their life decisions, rather than revert to an overly-simplified "we are the people of the leaf, oh no you touched a sword, you are dead to me, why does your voice sound out from the empty wasteland since I must now pretend I can no longer see you ?" way of being. Just....ugh.

[Exy]

I'd hope that they get to STAY that way, where the people are accorded at least a modicum of choice in their life decisions, rather than revert to an overly-simplified "we are the people of the leaf, oh no you touched a sword, you are dead to me, why does your voice sound out from the empty wasteland since I must now pretend I can no longer see you ?" way of being. Just....ugh.

Yep. And the Tinkers seem to be just as bad as the Jenn were that way.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Aeil will be wiped out completely. The prophecy of the remnant of a remnant surviving is a reference to the Tinkers who are all fleeing to Seanchan lands for protection. The Seanchan will harbor and protect them in the upcoming dark days as they do to all their subjects. The Tinkers will then thrive in Seanchan society as they will no longer have to fear being attacked by brigands or robbers due to the emphasis the Seanchan place on civil order and justice, moreso than emphasis they actually enforce it which is part of the reason why so many good commonfolk are fleeing the chaos that is Randland to seek safety behind Seanchan lines.

[gary0044187]

The Aeil will be wiped out completely. The prophecy of the remnant of a remnant surviving is a reference to the Tinkers who are all fleeing to Seanchan lands for protection. The Seanchan will harbor and protect them in the upcoming dark days as they do to all their subjects. The Tinkers will then thrive in Seanchan society as they will no longer have to fear being attacked by brigands or robbers due to the emphasis the Seanchan place on civil order and justice, moreso than emphasis they actually enforce it which is part of the reason why so many good commonfolk are fleeing the chaos that is Randland to seek safety behind Seanchan lines.

the lands of the great khan were peaceful after he established order. The price of the order might be too much for many of us though.

[Areopagitican]

I thought a lot of the vision for the Aiel was contrived and generally a waste of space, imho. It's just another sub-sub-sub plot that I couldn't care less about and couldn't wait for it to finish. I was fine with the series delving into Avi's life, then her relationship with the Wiseone's, then her quest to become a Wiseone... But at some point the reader has to say 'ugh, enough. Let's get back to Rand.' Yet instead of doing that Sanderson seems to be exploring some potential future for the Aiel? Argh, I really just couldn't care less.

[moratcorlm]

This has been an ensemble cast since the middle of book one; it's not the Rand show and never was.

[Areopagitican]

This has been an ensemble cast since the middle of book one; it's not the Rand show and never was.

 

Yeah, but what's the point of bringing in some potential future for the Aiel? Yes, the series has been increasingly larger and less focused; I can see how some appreciate it but... Seriously, the whole 'what will become of the Aiel' sub-sub-sub plot has always seemed a tad tedious. There's no reason for it. Look how Sanderson tried to invigorate it by having Avi not only understand understand ter'angreal by touching them but now she can also change their function? What a coincidence. And even though she's Aiel and deeply proud of her traditions (not to mention self-preservation), she decides to go through the portal twice? Meh. It definitely could have been done better and I was pretty disappointed.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Aeil will be wiped out completely. The prophecy of the remnant of a remnant surviving is a reference to the Tinkers who are all fleeing to Seanchan lands for protection. The Seanchan will harbor and protect them in the upcoming dark days as they do to all their subjects. The Tinkers will then thrive in Seanchan society as they will no longer have to fear being attacked by brigands or robbers due to the emphasis the Seanchan place on civil order and justice, moreso than emphasis they actually enforce it which is part of the reason why so many good commonfolk are fleeing the chaos that is Randland to seek safety behind Seanchan lines.

the lands of the great khan were peaceful after he established order. The price of the order might be too much for many of us though.

 

 

You can't compare the Mongols to the Seanchan. Not even close considering how the Mongols raped, murdered and massacred with such vigor that they depopulated whole swathes of land.

[gary0044187]

You can't compare the Mongols to the Seanchan. Not even close considering how the Mongols raped, murdered and massacred with such vigor that they depopulated whole swathes of land.

really? I thought it was an apt analogy considering what happened on tomon head. The seanchan did not rape, but they did wipe out the leaders of several townships to warn the rest not to mess with them. After Genghis established rule, banditry was severely reduced in his lands until he died.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

You can't compare the Mongols to the Seanchan. Not even close considering how the Mongols raped, murdered and massacred with such vigor that they depopulated whole swathes of land.

really? I thought it was an apt analogy considering what happened on tomon head. The seanchan did not rape, but they did wipe out the leaders of several townships to warn the rest not to mess with them. After Genghis established rule, banditry was severely reduced in his lands until he died.

 

They killed the leaders exactly. This wasn't that uncommon and is definitely not what made the Mongols infamous. Want me to list as to why the Seanchan are not even in the same universe when it comes to a moral comparison?

 

 

 

This here is just restricted to the single Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia;

 

In Urgench young women and children were given to the Mongol soldiers as slaves, and the rest of the population was massacred. The Persian scholar Juvayni states that 50,000 Mongol soldiers were given the task of executing twenty-four Urgench citizens each, which would mean that 1.2 million people were killed. The sacking of Urgench is considered one of the bloodiest massacres in human history.

 

After the fortress fell in Samarkand, Genghis reneged on his surrender terms and executed every soldier that had taken arms against him at Samarkand. The people of Samarkand were ordered to evacuate and assemble in a plain outside the city, where they were killed and pyramids of severed heads raised as the symbol of Mongol victory.[

 

A further month went by before the citadel at Otrar was taken. Inalchuq held out until the end, even climbing to the top of the citadel in the last moments of the siege to throw down tiles at the oncoming Mongols. Genghis killed many of the inhabitants, enslaved the rest, and executed Inalchuq, possibly by pouring molten gold or silver down his throat

 

In the city of Bukkara the Mongol soldiers looted the city, a fire broke out, razing most of the city to the ground.[10] Genghis Khan had the people assemble in the main mosque of the town, where he declared that he was the flail of God, sent to punish them for their sins before ordering their execution.

 

The city of Gurjang, south of the Aral Sea. Upon its surrender the Mongols broke the dams and flooded the city, then proceeded to execute the survivors who had not drowned.

 

The city of Merv surrendered the city on Tolui's promise that the lives of the citizens would be spared. As soon as the city was handed over, however, Tolui slaughtered almost every person who surrendered, in a massacre possibly on a greater scale than that at Urgench.

 

After finishing off Merv, Tolui headed westwards, attacking the cities of Nishapur and Herat.[14] Nishapur fell after only three days; and Tolui put to the sword every living thing in city, including the cats and dogs.

 

 

 

 

You want me to list even worse or similar events from all the other Mongol invasions (China, Anatolia, Russia, Middle East, Eastern Europe, Korea, West Asia, etc..)?

[Exy]

They killed the leaders exactly. This wasn't that uncommon and is definitely not what made the Mongols infamous. Want me to list as to why the Seanchan are not even in the same universe when it comes to a moral comparison?

The leaders, and their families, including children. The way people here defend the Seanchan is just bizarre. You're talking about a society that practices slavery, feels that murdering children in cold blood is an acceptable military strategy, and can't maintain order (their own homeland is in the midst of a massive civil war) but people try to stick up for them. At best their society is like Mussolini's Italy, plus with the practice of slavery.

[mbuehner]

In his defense, Genghis his reasons: "If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."

[Durinax]

They killed the leaders exactly. This wasn't that uncommon and is definitely not what made the Mongols infamous. Want me to list as to why the Seanchan are not even in the same universe when it comes to a moral comparison?

The leaders, and their families, including children. The way people here defend the Seanchan is just bizarre. You're talking about a society that practices slavery, feels that murdering children in cold blood is an acceptable military strategy, and can't maintain order (their own homeland is in the midst of a massive civil war) but people try to stick up for them. At best their society is like Mussolini's Italy, plus with the practice of slavery.

well in any feudal empire if all the imperial family where suddenly destroyed, everything plunges into chaos. So it is understandable why the lack of a ruling family cant keep the peace.

 

I see the seanchan more like a feudal france, wiht everyone having to be in a certain caste and families following the same line of work as the previous. Although it does take elements from napolean with his elite guard that he basically owned

[coolpool]

can i just say that, somewhere in TSR there is a bit where moirain says something about the dragon prophicies and says something along the lines of "the dragon will kill his people with the sword of peace and destroy them with the leaf.

 

the sword of peace must be a refference to the big pack thing the dragon will (or might) make with all the leaders of the world to not declare war on eachother or fight (or something invoving peace :P) and the destroying with the leaf could be a refference to the tinkerers...?? just putting that out there as i didn't see anyone else mention it..

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

They killed the leaders exactly. This wasn't that uncommon and is definitely not what made the Mongols infamous. Want me to list as to why the Seanchan are not even in the same universe when it comes to a moral comparison?

The leaders, and their families, including children. The way people here defend the Seanchan is just bizarre. You're talking about a society that practices slavery, feels that murdering children in cold blood is an acceptable military strategy, and can't maintain order (their own homeland is in the midst of a massive civil war) but people try to stick up for them. At best their society is like Mussolini's Italy, plus with the practice of slavery.

 

 

Because you're making the mistake of holding the Seanchan to modern sensibilities. However in context of the WoT universe the Seanchan seem the only visible force of human progress and evolution. Considering the likes of all the squabbling feudalistic or mercantile nations in Randland, the Empire as dreamed about by Hawkwing and realized by his son Luthair is the best out of a sorry lot.

[somewon]

Here's a few thoughts to chew on.

 

What if adi's visions of future technology (steam power and firearms) indicate that the wheel has either broken and time has become linear or worse yet, that the world may possibly be gaining technology and poising it's "magic" I.e. Science kills mystery.

 

I'm not saying it's not preventable, but what if the implications are bigger than just the genocide of the aiel?

 

I think the growth of technology in this story (the dragons) is very troubling.

[gary0044187]

They killed the leaders exactly. This wasn't that uncommon and is definitely not what made the Mongols infamous. Want me to list as to why the Seanchan are not even in the same universe when it comes to a moral comparison?

 

 

 

This here is just restricted to the single Mongol invasion of Khwarezmia;

 

In Urgench young women and children were given to the Mongol soldiers as slaves, and the rest of the population was massacred. The Persian scholar Juvayni states that 50,000 Mongol soldiers were given the task of executing twenty-four Urgench citizens each, which would mean that 1.2 million people were killed. The sacking of Urgench is considered one of the bloodiest massacres in human history.

 

After the fortress fell in Samarkand, Genghis reneged on his surrender terms and executed every soldier that had taken arms against him at Samarkand. The people of Samarkand were ordered to evacuate and assemble in a plain outside the city, where they were killed and pyramids of severed heads raised as the symbol of Mongol victory.[

 

A further month went by before the citadel at Otrar was taken. Inalchuq held out until the end, even climbing to the top of the citadel in the last moments of the siege to throw down tiles at the oncoming Mongols. Genghis killed many of the inhabitants, enslaved the rest, and executed Inalchuq, possibly by pouring molten gold or silver down his throat

 

In the city of Bukkara the Mongol soldiers looted the city, a fire broke out, razing most of the city to the ground.[10] Genghis Khan had the people assemble in the main mosque of the town, where he declared that he was the flail of God, sent to punish them for their sins before ordering their execution.

 

The city of Gurjang, south of the Aral Sea. Upon its surrender the Mongols broke the dams and flooded the city, then proceeded to execute the survivors who had not drowned.

 

The city of Merv surrendered the city on Tolui's promise that the lives of the citizens would be spared. As soon as the city was handed over, however, Tolui slaughtered almost every person who surrendered, in a massacre possibly on a greater scale than that at Urgench.

 

After finishing off Merv, Tolui headed westwards, attacking the cities of Nishapur and Herat.[14] Nishapur fell after only three days; and Tolui put to the sword every living thing in city, including the cats and dogs.

 

 

 

 

You want me to list even worse or similar events from all the other Mongol invasions (China, Anatolia, Russia, Middle East, Eastern Europe, Korea, West Asia, etc..)?

No, I fully understand what the Mongols did (I will also note that the Khwarezmids earned a special place of hatred in the Khan's eyes for what they did to his ambassadors). I also understand that the quote about Hawkwing that you quoted in another thread is an adaptation of what was been said about Genghis. I am not trying to make him out for a saint, but merely pointing out that once he established order in his lands it was achieved effectively.

[somewon]

Maybe my frame of reference is noo narrow. Maybe in the next age or two technology grows, followed by cataclysm and then everyone is starting over from scratch.

[AquilaInfernus]

He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.

 

So there are 4 possible remnants: Shaido, Tinkers, Gai'shan and those who survive the last battle.

 

There is also the glass pillar 'prophecy' (for lack of a better word) to Aviendha in ToM. It is fairly obvious Avi needs to convince the Aiel to re-evaluate their culture and dependence on the aims of the three-fold land.

 

Shaido - backing them to follow through with the 'prophecy' should the Seanchan break the peace (they eventually get crushed in the Waste)

Tinkers - Hardly 'saved' by Rand and no longer called Aiel, which rules them eligitimate

Gai'shan - dunno why everyone includes them except as reflecting the way of the leaf, seems to me they'd be linked with the survivors.

 

The survivors of the Last Battle are likely the embodiment of the remnant in the prophecy, shaped by Aviendha following her revelations in Ruidean.

 

It's my opinion that the pillars project the future based on the individual's current state of mind, that Avi wrestles with the displacement of the Aiel, but ultimately holds to her original beliefs. Armed with new knowledge, she is now able to prevent this...

 

Oh and yes I believe that RJ's 'pet' culture will survive and the Seanchan cast down (possibly because of the Field of Merrilor gathering uniting in the face of the Seanchan White Tower attack). ZenRand and the a'dam thing could happen too though

[Exy]

Maybe my frame of reference is noo narrow. Maybe in the next age or two technology grows, followed by cataclysm and then everyone is starting over from scratch.

You are. Different ages are different from one another and it has to be the case that a lot of them end with cataclysms comparable to the Breaking. Some of the ages don't have magic, some do, assuredly some are technological (remember that there's hints from the stories Thom mentions that Rand is living in our distant future), some are not -- developing cannons and steam engines doesn't mean any of that will still survive Tar'mon Gaidon, much less thousands of years into the future as the Fourth Age ends.

[capuga]

can i just say that, somewhere in TSR there is a bit where moirain says something about the dragon prophicies and says something along the lines of "the dragon will kill his people with the sword of peace and destroy them with the leaf.

 

the sword of peace must be a refference to the big pack thing the dragon will (or might) make with all the leaders of the world to not declare war on eachother or fight (or something invoving peace :P) and the destroying with the leaf could be a refference to the tinkerers...?? just putting that out there as i didn't see anyone else mention it..

 

That was in reference to Rand revealing to the Aiel that they used to be peaceful and follow the Way of the Leaf. We see this "break" them and cause the bleakness where many Aiel throw down their spears. They are shamed by both the fact that they were not always proud warriors and by the fact that by giving up the Way their ancestors broke their honor to the Aes Sedai.

[capuga]

Here's a few thoughts to chew on.

 

What if adi's visions of future technology (steam power and firearms) indicate that the wheel has either broken and time has become linear or worse yet, that the world may possibly be gaining technology and poising it's "magic" I.e. Science kills mystery.

 

I'm not saying it's not preventable, but what if the implications are bigger than just the genocide of the aiel?

 

I think the growth of technology in this story (the dragons) is very troubling.

 

Why? I think it would be strange if these people never progressed in their technology. Plus we know that the AoL had things like elevators, cars, and airplanes. So we know that certain ages each turn of the Wheel have technology. Plus we've been told that our world is sometime in the past/future so we know that there are certain ages that don't even have the use of the One Power and rely exclusively on technology.

 

Just for personal preference I don't particularly like my fantasy stories to contain much in the way of more modern technology, especially guns. So I am glad that the cannons (with guns soon to follow) are just occuring at the end of this story. I prefer my fantasy to involve sword fighting and archers.