Did Cadsuane lie?

[Darth Krewl]

It made Cadusane's shoulders itch, being surrounded like this, but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was - looked perfectly at peace.

Thirteen Aes Sedai waited outside the tent, which wasn't large enough for them all. Thirteen. That hadn't made al'Thor blink. What man who could channel would sit amid thirteen Aes Sedai and not sweat?

He's changed, Cadsuane told herself. You're just going to have to accept that. Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament.

But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little.

 

The quote above, which I found on another post, clearly indicates just what an intolerable selfish and arrogant ass this woman is.

 

Rand will always be a foolish boy, despite the fact that he's way ahead of Cadsuane in every possible way now? If he were half the "foolish boy" that she makes him out to be, Rand wouldn't have been able, not only to survive but to succeed, for so long. This comment clearly indicates that the woman's extremely jealous of Rand because his mere presence means she's not the top honcho anymore. There's someone much more powerful, knowledgeable and experience around and her ego (as in selfish pride) simply cannot bear it.

 

The second part I've highlighted in bold clearly demonstrates that, while Cadsuane is extremely overconfident and has made one of the biggest mistakes in the series (letting Semirhage escape and get the male Domination Band on her watch) her swollen ego totally blinds and renders her incapable of seeing her own mistakes. She's throwing rocks when living in a glass skyscraper.

 

Her pride over Rand is not based on the guy's accomplishments, but on the fact that the old hag actually feels proud to see how her self-appointed task to "lead" and "guide" the "foolish boy" (as if she had really done anything big in this sense) seems to have worked.

 

Cadsuane's not a little prideful and is not just a bit arrogant. Pride is one of the biggest traits of ego and everything that derives from ego is selfish. Hence the synonym "egotistical" and Cadsuane's extremely self-centered and ego-based, hence egotistical and arrogant to the extreme.

[babuada]

It made Cadusane's shoulders itch, being surrounded like this, but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was - looked perfectly at peace.

Thirteen Aes Sedai waited outside the tent, which wasn't large enough for them all. Thirteen. That hadn't made al'Thor blink. What man who could channel would sit amid thirteen Aes Sedai and not sweat?

He's changed, Cadsuane told herself. You're just going to have to accept that. Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament.

But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little.

 

The quote above, which I found on another post, clearly indicates just what an intolerable selfish and arrogant ass this woman is.

 

Rand will always be a foolish boy, despite the fact that he's way ahead of Cadsuane in every possible way now? If he were half the "foolish boy" that she makes him out to be, Rand wouldn't have been able, not only to survive but to succeed, for so long. This comment clearly indicates that the woman's extremely jealous of Rand because his mere presence means she's not the top honcho anymore. There's someone much more powerful, knowledgeable and experience around and her ego (as in selfish pride) simply cannot bear it.

 

The second part I've highlighted in bold clearly demonstrates that, while Cadsuane is extremely overconfident and has made one of the biggest mistakes in the series (letting Semirhage escape and get the male Domination Band on her watch) her swollen ego totally blinds and renders her incapable of seeing her own mistakes. She's throwing rocks when living in a glass skyscraper.

 

Her pride over Rand is not based on the guy's accomplishments, but on the fact that the old hag actually feels proud to see how her self-appointed task to "lead" and "guide" the "foolish boy" (as if she had really done anything big in this sense) seems to have worked.

 

Cadsuane's not a little prideful and is not just a bit arrogant. Pride is one of the biggest traits of ego and everything that derives from ego is selfish. Hence the synonym "egotistical" and Cadsuane's extremely self-centered and ego-based, hence egotistical and arrogant to the extreme.

I beg to differ. "but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was". This bold part could also represent afection for Rand. He amy have memory but he is just 21 years old and Cad is 300. I can very well see My great grand mother thinking about me like this.

"Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament." She is thinking about protecting him. I understand that she is having difficulty acknowledging the fact that a 21 year old guy could have the wisdom of 400 years. But she still thinks him as a 21 year old and wanting to protect him only confirms her afection for him.

"But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little." She is not proud of her success. She is proud of him. She is a stern teacher who holds very high standard. But if she can feel pride, not for her, but for her student, then can't we be genuinely certain that she is atleast thinking about him not herself?

[Taura-Tierno]

It made Cadusane's shoulders itch, being surrounded like this, but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was - looked perfectly at peace.

Thirteen Aes Sedai waited outside the tent, which wasn't large enough for them all. Thirteen. That hadn't made al'Thor blink. What man who could channel would sit amid thirteen Aes Sedai and not sweat?

He's changed, Cadsuane told herself. You're just going to have to accept that. Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament.

But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little.

 

The quote above, which I found on another post, clearly indicates just what an intolerable selfish and arrogant ass this woman is.

 

Rand will always be a foolish boy, despite the fact that he's way ahead of Cadsuane in every possible way now? If he were half the "foolish boy" that she makes him out to be, Rand wouldn't have been able, not only to survive but to succeed, for so long. This comment clearly indicates that the woman's extremely jealous of Rand because his mere presence means she's not the top honcho anymore. There's someone much more powerful, knowledgeable and experience around and her ego (as in selfish pride) simply cannot bear it.

 

The second part I've highlighted in bold clearly demonstrates that, while Cadsuane is extremely overconfident and has made one of the biggest mistakes in the series (letting Semirhage escape and get the male Domination Band on her watch) her swollen ego totally blinds and renders her incapable of seeing her own mistakes. She's throwing rocks when living in a glass skyscraper.

 

Her pride over Rand is not based on the guy's accomplishments, but on the fact that the old hag actually feels proud to see how her self-appointed task to "lead" and "guide" the "foolish boy" (as if she had really done anything big in this sense) seems to have worked.

 

Cadsuane's not a little prideful and is not just a bit arrogant. Pride is one of the biggest traits of ego and everything that derives from ego is selfish. Hence the synonym "egotistical" and Cadsuane's extremely self-centered and ego-based, hence egotistical and arrogant to the extreme.

I beg to differ. "but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was". This bold part could also represent afection for Rand. He amy have memory but he is just 21 years old and Cad is 300. I can very well see My great grand mother thinking about me like this.

"Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament." She is thinking about protecting him. I understand that she is having difficulty acknowledging the fact that a 21 year old guy could have the wisdom of 400 years. But she still thinks him as a 21 year old and wanting to protect him only confirms her afection for him.

"But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little." She is not proud of her success. She is proud of him. She is a stern teacher who holds very high standard. But if she can feel pride, not for her, but for her student, then can't we be genuinely certain that she is atleast thinking about him not herself?

 

Just what I was thinking. She's like a somewhat overprotective grandmother. I don't think it's uncommon for old people to think about younger people like that in - in an affectionate way. Like "he'll always be that little boy", and she's sure that, as most young people, he'll make a mistake sooner or later. I don't blame her for finding it difficult to come to immediately come to terms with the fact that a 21-year-old suddenly has all the memories of not just a 400-year-old, but someone from the AoL. Who would be able to make that shift instantly, without any kind of difficulty? It's bound to freak everyone out.

 

Also, I don't see how letting Semirhage escape was in any way connected to her pride. Didn't she keep a guard? She couldn't possibly have anticipated Shaidar Haran's interference. He's, iirc, completely unknown to them. It was unfortunate, but no more her fault than Rand's.

[ranjitb]

I agree with what has been said re : Cadsuane.

This might be somewhat of a controvertial statement, but I truly feel that most female characters in the series were in danger of devolving into petty, one-dimensional scheming hags in books 9-11, and Sanderson has really redeemed a lot of them (including Cadsuane, *and* Egwene) by showing them to be real people, with real motivations, and a greater depth of character than they had for a while.

 

Also, since in a certain way WoT is meant to be a mirror to our own so-called male dominated world, it seems far more realistic that the prejudices and attitudes of 3000 years would ALSO takes centuries to erase. It would be just too easy and too unbelievable if everyone were to suddenly pick up and say "Oh, say what ? The Dragon is a Man ? Must mean that all men are equal to women and thus must be respected !"

Um, no.

[mbuehner]

It made Cadusane's shoulders itch, being surrounded like this, but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was - looked perfectly at peace.

Thirteen Aes Sedai waited outside the tent, which wasn't large enough for them all. Thirteen. That hadn't made al'Thor blink. What man who could channel would sit amid thirteen Aes Sedai and not sweat?

He's changed, Cadsuane told herself. You're just going to have to accept that. Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament.

But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little.

 

The quote above, which I found on another post, clearly indicates just what an intolerable selfish and arrogant ass this woman is.

 

Rand will always be a foolish boy, despite the fact that he's way ahead of Cadsuane in every possible way now? If he were half the "foolish boy" that she makes him out to be, Rand wouldn't have been able, not only to survive but to succeed, for so long. This comment clearly indicates that the woman's extremely jealous of Rand because his mere presence means she's not the top honcho anymore. There's someone much more powerful, knowledgeable and experience around and her ego (as in selfish pride) simply cannot bear it.

 

The second part I've highlighted in bold clearly demonstrates that, while Cadsuane is extremely overconfident and has made one of the biggest mistakes in the series (letting Semirhage escape and get the male Domination Band on her watch) her swollen ego totally blinds and renders her incapable of seeing her own mistakes. She's throwing rocks when living in a glass skyscraper.

 

Her pride over Rand is not based on the guy's accomplishments, but on the fact that the old hag actually feels proud to see how her self-appointed task to "lead" and "guide" the "foolish boy" (as if she had really done anything big in this sense) seems to have worked.

 

Cadsuane's not a little prideful and is not just a bit arrogant. Pride is one of the biggest traits of ego and everything that derives from ego is selfish. Hence the synonym "egotistical" and Cadsuane's extremely self-centered and ego-based, hence egotistical and arrogant to the extreme.

I beg to differ. "but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was". This bold part could also represent afection for Rand. He amy have memory but he is just 21 years old and Cad is 300. I can very well see My great grand mother thinking about me like this.

"Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament." She is thinking about protecting him. I understand that she is having difficulty acknowledging the fact that a 21 year old guy could have the wisdom of 400 years. But she still thinks him as a 21 year old and wanting to protect him only confirms her afection for him.

"But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little." She is not proud of her success. She is proud of him. She is a stern teacher who holds very high standard. But if she can feel pride, not for her, but for her student, then can't we be genuinely certain that she is atleast thinking about him not herself?

 

Just what I was thinking. She's like a somewhat overprotective grandmother. I don't think it's uncommon for old people to think about younger people like that in - in an affectionate way. Like "he'll always be that little boy", and she's sure that, as most young people, he'll make a mistake sooner or later. I don't blame her for finding it difficult to come to immediately come to terms with the fact that a 21-year-old suddenly has all the memories of not just a 400-year-old, but someone from the AoL. Who would be able to make that shift instantly, without any kind of difficulty? It's bound to freak everyone out.

 

Also, I don't see how letting Semirhage escape was in any way connected to her pride. Didn't she keep a guard? She couldn't possibly have anticipated Shaidar Haran's interference. He's, iirc, completely unknown to them. It was unfortunate, but no more her fault than Rand's.

 

Everybody always escapes from every prison in this series. Don't believe me, go back and check. Its moved into the realm of farce.

 

I like Cadsuane, I tend to think her biggest haters have a problem with a powerful woman throwing her weight around.

[Taura-Tierno]

Now that you mention it, I think you're right. Maybe it's a genetic defect in the general population: extreme lack of ability to keep people imprisoned for very long.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hello all...

Mbuehner, I do indeed have a problem with a powerful woman throwing her weight around. Its the same problem Id have with a man who did just the same; a sexist I am not; its equality I embrace. Arrogant and uppity characteristics are neither pleasant nor pretty. Cadsuane demonstrates both.

 

The commenter who posted regarding Cadsuane's treatment of a servant very much shows her obnoxious tendencies. I also can understand those who think Cadsuane is a bit.....dark(friend) in her orientation as she does behave similarly to the arrogant and uppity men in the Black Tower who are Taim's lackeys.

 

I dont see her as adapting her approach to each individual, using the appropriate method where needed; weve seen her domineer too many. Almost everyone she meets. Recall how she acted with the Sea Folk character (Harine?) throughout these past few books. Not ALL of Randland needs to be bullied.

[Taura-Tierno]

She has used the appropriate method with several characters, too. Being generally bossy isn't the same as being a bully, which isn't towards that many people, really. It's just that that's the side we see the most, since we often see her with Rand.

 

What servant did she treat badly?

[Wheel of Thyme]

Hi Taura,

This is copied and pasted from Mr Ares's post #40, where he quotes the book:

From WH 24: This is the Hall of the Counsels, and -"

Tell First Counsel Barsalla that Cadsuane Melaidhrin is here to see her."

"Cadsuane Melaidhrin? I thought you were -!" He cut himself short at her suddenly hard stare.

...

"I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy. Tell her I'll be in the dome and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!"?

 

I do indeed call her rude, condescending, and dismissive of one apparently considered beneath her.

[Taura-Tierno]

That was a bit rude, but hardly bullying, or extreme in any way. Ares explains it quite well in that post.

 

I would certainly be willing to call her rude' date=' but hesistant to call her attitude here bullying. She breaks in on the man in mid sentence and tells him she wants to see the boss. Typical of her - brusque, no nonsense. She is no big fan of people continually telling her they thought she was dead (it does get tiresome), and things went downhill for the poor guy after that. He wanted to take Cadsuane to a room, then send word to Aleis. [b']Cadsuane wasn't in the mood for needless delay, so snapped at the guy to get on with contacting Aleis[/b]. As I say, she isn't the nicest person in the world, and I can see why people take against her so often. But for all she is snappish, and doesn't suffer fools gladly, she doesn't generally bully people. She is often rude to them though.

 

My bold emphases. So straightforward that she's a bit rude, perhaps. But not condescending in any way. When you're trying to stop the end of the world, I'd say you're allowed to feel a bit pressed on time and get annoyed at trivialities.

[Wheel of Thyme]

Taura-tierno, I truly do not share your view here. But thats OK. No one has to agree; enjoyable debate is the aim of this forum. And, if we all thought the same, life would truly be dull. I dont accept MrAres assessment either. I see Cadsuane as a bully, an uppity woman who does not hesitate to throw her pompous nature around.

 

People CAN be in a hurry and still speak with respect, not demean the one they speak to. Having urgency (pun not intended...for all the medical people) doesnt mean one can act with complete disregard for others feelings. She certainly could have stated she was in a hurry, in a more respectful manner.

 

Ive been rushed; in emergency situations. It didnt give me the right to mistreat others as a result. Displacing emotions onto the defenseless or the powerless is not a defense mechanism a mature person engages in; its the act of a bully.

[Darth Krewl]

I beg to differ. "but the fool boy - he would always be a fool boy, no matter how old he was". This bold part could also represent afection for Rand. He amy have memory but he is just 21 years old and Cad is 300. I can very well see My great grand mother thinking about me like this.

 

Yes, that's a valid interpretation, even if I strongly disagree with it. It would seem like most of Cadsuane's apologists always use the "granny approach" excuse to justify the woman's insufferable nature. But, fact of the matter is that, not only is she completely unrelated to Rand, but he didn't even want her around at all in the first place. The only reason he put up with her was because of Min's viewing. Putting up with one's granny is one thing. Putting up with a meddlesome, arrogant and bossy/bitchy stranger is a completely different animal altogether.

 

"Not that he didn't need her anymore. Men like him grew overly confident. A few little successes, and he'd trip over his own feet and land in some predicament." She is thinking about protecting him. I understand that she is having difficulty acknowledging the fact that a 21 year old guy could have the wisdom of 400 years. But she still thinks him as a 21 year old and wanting to protect him only confirms her afection for him.

"But ... well, she was proud of him. Grudgingly proud. A little." She is not proud of her success. She is proud of him. She is a stern teacher who holds very high standard. But if she can feel pride, not for her, but for her student, then can't we be genuinely certain that she is atleast thinking about him not herself?

 

Rand is no mere 21 yr. old and he's made that clear to the old hag not once, but twice already. His physical age became irrelevant when he unlocked all of the memories from his past life and integrated them. That makes him far superior to every single Light Side channeler by a landslide, which is why he took exception to the old hag calling him "boy" (and treating him as such) all the time and understandably so. Therefore, Cadsuane's line proves her obstinacy and arrogance, as she clearly can't bring herself to admitting that she's ages behind this "21 yr. old runt". Sad but true for her, unfortunately.

 

Protecting him? Now that is something Cadsuane took upon herself, as no one named her protector to the Dragon Reborn. Just one of countless attributions that this woman has taken upon herself w/o having anyone assign her to it. One only has to look at the way Moiraine ended up realizing that her arrogance and self-conceit had done far more harm than good, to know that Cadsuane's every single move has hindered far more than helped her with Rand, as she has made every single mistake Moiraine did and has even come up with a few new blunders of her own.

 

Affection for him? Affection is demonstrated, perhaps not through words but feelings and thoughts, at least. And I've yet to read one single Cadsuane PoV where she acknowledges feeling any affection for al'Thor even vaguely. So, I'd say that's open to personal interpretation and again, I strongly disagree.

 

She's a stern teacher, alright. And a meddlesome one, as well, since Rand never took her as his mentor/teacher, the way Perrin did with Hopper, Frodo with Gandalf or Luke with Yoda and Kenobi. Again, all Rand did was accept to let the woman hang around him because of Min's viewing. And the girl's literal words were that he had "something important" to learn from Cadsuane, not that she was going to teach him anymore than that. For as Moiraine would say, a female channeler couldn't teach a male anymore than a bird can teach a fish how to swim or a fish teach a bird how to fly.

 

Cadsuane may be thinking about Rand and feeling proud of him, granted. Alas, that is also a selfish feeling because, again, she imposed herself on Rand as teacher and mentor. He never wanted her there in the first place, so if she feels any pride, that is due to seeing her obstinate insistence paying off...for her.

[Taura-Tierno]

Oh, I definitely think she's rude. It's not her modt endearing quality, far from it. I still maintain that it's not just Cadsuane who'll have difficulty adjusting to the new Rand. It's not very odd; he just got Lews Therin's memories, so people still have to adjust. It is'nt odd at all that people can have some trouble going from seeing someone as a 21-year-old to seeing them as a 400-year-old. It's quite an adjustment. And, he hasn't done much remarkable yet to prove his point. I think that Cadsuane will actually support him in his effort.

 

Cadsuane definitely has her flaws, but she's not a bully as often as it's assumed. She's showed that she can be compassionate and caring.

[Mr Ares]

Hi Taura,

This is copied and pasted from Mr Ares's post #40, where he quotes the book:

From WH 24: This is the Hall of the Counsels, and -"

Tell First Counsel Barsalla that Cadsuane Melaidhrin is here to see her."

"Cadsuane Melaidhrin? I thought you were -!" He cut himself short at her suddenly hard stare.

...

"I'll allow you to run tell Aleis I'm here as fast as your legs can carry you, boy. Tell her I'll be in the dome and tell her I don't have all day. Well? Hop!"?

 

I do indeed call her rude, condescending, and dismissive of one apparently considered beneath her.

I would take issue with the beneath her part - not because it's untrue, but because I don't think it's relevant. As a servant, this guy would be considered beneath her, but so would a wilder, a non-AS, most other AS, yet she gives people respect as she feels they are due, not due to any perceived inferiority of station. A bit like me in that respect.