A Few Questions...

[BlackAjah]

Hello everyone! I'm about 75% done with ToM and there have been a few questions that I keep pondering but was hoping for some clarification from the experts.

 

First of all, I cannot seem to figurie out why Egwene didn't keep her sleeping body guarded when she was busy baiting Mesaana in TAR. I know at first she wanted Gawyn to stay away because she wanted the assassin to show up, and then later on Gawyn was away in Caemlyn, but when Egwene went to sleep to meet up at the Musician's Way and then to go fight the Black Ajah in TAR, didn't she think she should at least have SOME type of guard protecting her unguarded body in the waking world?? She is the Amyrlin, and all alone in her bedchamber with an unlocked door to her chambers?? If Gawyn hadn't figured out about the Bloodknives then Egwene would be TOAST! It just seems like such a silly mistake from such a smart character, to be prancing about TAR with her sleeping body completely alone and unprotected. She was trying to bait Mesaana and the Black Ajah, but not in the real whorl, only in TAR! I know the story wouldn't have progressed the way it did if Egwene HAD been guarded, but what was her motivation here? Sorry if this has been discussed already but I am not yet done with the book so have been staying away from this spoiler section...

 

Readrging wolves and TAR, I realize that wolves seem to always be partly in TAR, but...are they there when they sleep? Or just always partly there when they are awake? And they are definitely there when they are deceased, right? Are the wolves gathering for The Last Hunt gathering at Draghonmount there in the waking world, in TAR, or both, because Perrin saw them gathering there in TAR. Elyas says to Perrin that maybe some day he'll see Perrin in the dream...does he mean when they are both dead or when they are both sleeping, or what?!

 

And finally...making ter'angreal. Can anyone officially do this yet? We know Aviendha can read what a ter'angreal does, and Elayne can copy them, but can anyone make one to fulfill a specific purpose they want. It seems Neald and the WIse Ones and Perrin made a power-wrought hammer, but I don't know if this is a ter'angreal yet, I don't think so....and the Seanchan can copy adam as much as they want, but can anyone REALLY make a brand-new ter'angreal yet?

 

Thank you so much for your clarifications! What an awesome book! Especially so far: Graendal point-of-view in the prologue/Elayne's battle in the Caemlyn dungeon/and "Darkness in the Tower" and "Wounds"...I am savoring the book and hence haven't read too quickly, but am reading for the end now!! Thanks again.

[David Selig]

Elayne made at least one brand new ter'angreal:

 

LoC, Prologue

 

“I haven’t done as well as I might with the ter’angreal, Anaiya Sedai.” That, at least, was hers and hers alone. The first had been the bracelet and necklace—a fact kept well hidden, needless to say — but they were an altered copy of a nasty invention, the a’dam, that the Seanchan left behind when their invasion was driven into the sea at Falme. The plain green disc that allowed someone not strong enough to work the invisibility trick — not many were — had been her idea from the first.

 

As for Egwene, there were Tower guards in place, but there were outside her rooms, but within range to hear the alarm set off by Egwene's wards if someone had tried to enter. The Bloodknives killed those guards before Gawyn came. It's still somewhat stupid, though, since Mesaana would've killed a few Tower guards with ease.

[johthohar]

She had the same amount of security she would have had on any normal night. The "Egwene is a dumbass" side would argue that she should have anticipated an attempt on her life while she was battling in TAR and had more protection. The "Egwene knows what she's doing so STFU!" side would argue that she was confident the only threat to her life was in TAR and she didn't know anything about the Bloodknives, so, she wasn't really being stupid after all. Both arguments have merit. Both have a basis in fact. There really isn't a right answer unless your in either the "love" or "hate" Egwene camps.

[gary0044187]

She had the same amount of security she would have had on any normal night. The "Egwene is a dumbass" side would argue that she should have anticipated an attempt on her life while she was battling in TAR and had more protection. The "Egwene knows what she's doing so STFU!" side would argue that she was confident the only threat to her life was in TAR and she didn't know anything about the Bloodknives, so, she wasn't really being stupid after all. Both arguments have merit. Both have a basis in fact. There really isn't a right answer unless your in either the "love" or "hate" Egwene camps.

I like Egwene as a character, but recently have thought her attitudes have been foolish. She now thinks that just because she is the Amyrlin that she is infallible, that is blatantly false. In previous books she relied on other AS to guide her and now she does not, consider Suian's POV in the Prologue. These other AS made up for the fact that at best she is an 18 yo that has hardly been out of her father's inn for more than two years. All other characters have other circumstances that negate this handicap. Mat and Rand have other men's lives to draw upon. Nyneave was the Wisdom for at least 16 years (look at the parts in previous books where she claimed she changed rand's swaddling clothes). Perrin still relies on other people to help guide him. The incident with the bloodknives is just one of the first lessons she needs to learn about her fallibility and need to continue to accept guidance from those who may have experienced more than her. I hope, for her sake, there are harsher lessons on the way, and that she learns them before any real losses .

[Mystraka]

She had the same amount of security she would have had on any normal night. The "Egwene is a dumbass" side would argue that she should have anticipated an attempt on her life while she was battling in TAR and had more protection. The "Egwene knows what she's doing so STFU!" side would argue that she was confident the only threat to her life was in TAR and she didn't know anything about the Bloodknives, so, she wasn't really being stupid after all. Both arguments have merit. Both have a basis in fact. There really isn't a right answer unless your in either the "love" or "hate" Egwene camps.

 

 

I fail to see how attempting to lure the WT attackers into an attempt on her life (that was the whole purpose wasn't it) would give her confidence that she was only in jeopardy in TAR (the whole reason to put wards in your room is because you expect some sort of attack there, yes?) I;m not saying she was a dumbass, but it seems that the largest fault with the WoT women, is a lack of adequate planning. (most have the framework for great plans/ideas, they just fail to add in the appropriate fail safes, and take proper procautions.

 

Incidentally, not being aware of the bloodknives, doesn't exempt her from taking proper procautions as her death would be a serious blow to the light... In most high positions of power, ignorance is not an excuse

[moratcorlm]

Nyneave was the Wisdom for at least 16 years (look at the parts in previous books where she claimed she changed rand's swaddling clothes).

Nynaeve is 27 at the moment, and indications are her predecessor Barran died not long ago, though she was apprenticed at 14.

Nynaeve pressed a hand to his forehead. He flinched before he recalled that she had done much the same for at least five years, back home. She was just the Wisdom then, he thought. She wasn’t wearing that ring.

[Lacanos]

Egwene had woven plenty of defences - it mentions that she'd woven a trap of air for example that a maid had got caught in.

[Annia]

 

I like Egwene as a character, but recently have thought her attitudes have been foolish. She now thinks that just because she is the Amyrlin that she is infallible, that is blatantly false. In previous books she relied on other AS to guide her and now she does not, consider Suian's POV in the Prologue. These other AS made up for the fact that at best she is an 18 yo that has hardly been out of her father's inn for more than two years. All other characters have other circumstances that negate this handicap. Mat and Rand have other men's lives to draw upon. Nyneave was the Wisdom for at least 16 years (look at the parts in previous books where she claimed she changed rand's swaddling clothes). Perrin still relies on other people to help guide him. The incident with the bloodknives is just one of the first lessons she needs to learn about her fallibility and need to continue to accept guidance from those who may have experienced more than her. I hope, for her sake, there are harsher lessons on the way, and that she learns them before any real losses .

 

Nynaever was not the Wisdom for at least 16 years! I'd say she had been the Wisdom only for a few years. Before that she was the Wisdom's apprentice and before that she was a young woman who happened to babysit Rand. Babysitting is not exactly a part of the Wisdom's job discription so the swaddling clothes comment doesn't really prove anything. In book one Cenn still hadn't gotten over the fact that a young woman had been chosen as Wisdom. Do you think he would have still been moaning about it if Nynaeve had had 16 years to prove her abilities.

[gary0044187]

 

I like Egwene as a character, but recently have thought her attitudes have been foolish. She now thinks that just because she is the Amyrlin that she is infallible, that is blatantly false. In previous books she relied on other AS to guide her and now she does not, consider Suian's POV in the Prologue. These other AS made up for the fact that at best she is an 18 yo that has hardly been out of her father's inn for more than two years. All other characters have other circumstances that negate this handicap. Mat and Rand have other men's lives to draw upon. Nyneave was the Wisdom for at least 16 years (look at the parts in previous books where she claimed she changed rand's swaddling clothes). Perrin still relies on other people to help guide him. The incident with the bloodknives is just one of the first lessons she needs to learn about her fallibility and need to continue to accept guidance from those who may have experienced more than her. I hope, for her sake, there are harsher lessons on the way, and that she learns them before any real losses .

 

Nynaever was not the Wisdom for at least 16 years! I'd say she had been the Wisdom only for a few years. Before that she was the Wisdom's apprentice and before that she was a young woman who happened to babysit Rand. Babysitting is not exactly a part of the Wisdom's job discription so the swaddling clothes comment doesn't really prove anything. In book one Cenn still hadn't gotten over the fact that a young woman had been chosen as Wisdom. Do you think he would have still been moaning about it if Nynaeve had had 16 years to prove her abilities.

 

I was wrong, this person answered it better-

Nyneave was the Wisdom for at least 16 years (look at the parts in previous books where she claimed she changed rand's swaddling clothes).

Nynaeve is 27 at the moment, and indications are her predecessor Barran died not long ago, though she was apprenticed at 14.

Nynaeve pressed a hand to his forehead. He flinched before he recalled that she had done much the same for at least five years, back home. She was just the Wisdom then, he thought. She wasn’t wearing that ring.

 

So here is my question for you, does 27 invalidate my point? Do you dispute anything else?

 

Egwene had woven plenty of defences - it mentions that she'd woven a trap of air for example that a maid had got caught in.

 

plenty of defences would imply that none of the assassins would have gotten in. unfortunately, all 3 did. Her plenty of defenses were obviously not enough.

[moratcorlm]

Yeah, Egwene's defenses were flawed in several ways. First in creating apparently only one layer, so that any sufficiently dedicated team of assassins could spring the entire trap by sacrificing only one person, and second in not changing the way it worked after it was very publicly demonstrated on Gawyn, giving them the idea to use the maid.

[blazetheearth]

I like Egwene as a character, but recently have thought her attitudes have been foolish. She now thinks that just because she is the Amyrlin that she is infallible, that is blatantly false. In previous books she relied on other AS to guide her and now she does not, consider Suian's POV in the Prologue. These other AS made up for the fact that at best she is an 18 yo that has hardly been out of her father's inn for more than two years. All other characters have other circumstances that negate this handicap. Mat and Rand have other men's lives to draw upon. Nyneave was the Wisdom for at least 16 years (look at the parts in previous books where she claimed she changed rand's swaddling clothes). Perrin still relies on other people to help guide him. The incident with the bloodknives is just one of the first lessons she needs to learn about her fallibility and need to continue to accept guidance from those who may have experienced more than her. I hope, for her sake, there are harsher lessons on the way, and that she learns them before any real losses .

 

Nynaever was not the Wisdom for at least 16 years! I'd say she had been the Wisdom only for a few years. Before that she was the Wisdom's apprentice and before that she was a young woman who happened to babysit Rand. Babysitting is not exactly a part of the Wisdom's job discription so the swaddling clothes comment doesn't really prove anything. In book one Cenn still hadn't gotten over the fact that a young woman had been chosen as Wisdom. Do you think he would have still been moaning about it if Nynaeve had had 16 years to prove her abilities.

 

Yeah, I was thinking along similar lines when reading that post. I was actually trying to figure out why they would make a 10 year old the Village Wisdom. I mean Nyn is good, but she's not a savant. And she tells Tylin in Ebou Dar that she is 26 then, so I just can't see how the math worked out for them to think she had been Wisdom for 16 years.

 

And yes, I don't see Eggy has having been all that open to advice from anyone for the past few books. When Suian advised her to allow herself to be rescued from the WT originally, Eggy ignored it and went her own way. Actually since before she was with the WO's, she has pretty much done what she wanted. She has learned what others could teach her, but learning from and accepting their advice are 2 different things. Another example of ignoring advice (this time good advice from Suian) is when Suian tells Eggy that she could trust Gareth and should bring him into the circle of people that knew her plans. The only outcome that could have resulted from following this advice would have been to increase his loyalty, but she ignored the advice and threatened Suian to keep silent herself. I have not seen where Eggy trusts anyone's judgment but her own.

I understand why people like her as a character, and I think that her character was written correctly for someone her age. My only problem is that she hasn't fallen on her face yet when going her own way. So far she has been darn near infallible, because even her mistakes have not been exploited properly by her enemies. Elaida should have either stilled her or killed her, or at the very least made Eggy swear an Oath of Obedience to Elaida on the Oath Rod. Eggy was completely wrong to take Bode's place on the boat, but because her enemies bungled the affair she ended up coming out on top. Stupid villains have made it possible for her to get where she is, at least as much as her own abilities have put her there. The same with Mesaana. If Mesaana had been the least bit intelligent about it, she would have sent the BA into TAR, but kept herself in the Real World and murdered Eggy in her sleep, for that matter why didn't Mesaana get and keep the sa'angreal that Eggy used in TGS against the Seanchan. She should have stolen it months ago, kept it under a rock along the coast at the Fingers of the Dragon, and just Travelled to go get it when she wanted it, but it would have kept any AS from using it against her. Again Stupid Villain, with that sa'angreal to magnify Messy's power, she could have simply blown Eggy's room out of the Tower while Eggy was sleeping.

 

I do agree that Rand and Mat have other men's lives in their heads, and that helped them mature. And though you didn't mention Perrin, he has an older wife, and adult wolves in his head which have helped him achieve a maturity that neither Eggy nor Elayne show. And I definitely agree that Eggy needs a harsh lesson, and the harsher the better. I hope she gets collared in AMoL. Of course, Mat would end up freeing her, but I think that a couple of days as damane again would do her some good.

 

edit: my mistake you did mention Perrin, just not about the wolves helping him grow up as well as people around him.

[moratcorlm]

And though you didn't mention Perrin, he has an older wife

Faile is actually shockingly young. Let me see... here RJ says she was 17; that's 1995, so after LOC came out; she'd be 17-18 as of TOM, and as young as 16 when he first met her. Although I seem to remember a quote somewhere saying she was 14 (!) then... hmm, I'll look around.

 

Edit: here we are:

Dav and Elam were as old as Perrin, and Ewin was her own age.

The years separating Rand and Mat from Ewin, only fourteen, were usually more than enough for them to give short shrift to anything he had to say.

That chapter took place on March 23, 998 NE; Perrin and Faile first meet on April 19, 999; they marry June 29, 999; we're now in July of 1000 NE. Unless Faile was being a little loose with "her own age", which wouldn't seem likely to be the case considering Perrin was born in 978, not like 950, text beats off-the-cuff quote. It's still compatible if Ewin were an old 14 in EOTW and Faile a young 17 in LOC, I guess.

[David Selig]

IIRC, Faile being 14 years old is a mistake in the books, corrected in the later printings. In the earlier editions there's a mention in the LoC Prologue that she's the same age as Ewin Finngar, who's born 984 NE. This was later changed to "Dav and Elam were as old as Perrin, and Ewin not really that much younger than she herself."

[blazetheearth]

IIRC, Faile being 14 years old is a mistake in the books, corrected in the later printings. In the earlier editions there's a mention in the LoC Prologue that she's the same age as Ewin Finngar, who's born 984 NE. This was later changed to "Dav and Elam were as old as Perrin, and Ewin not really that much younger than she herself."

 

Yeah EWOT says she about the same age as Perrin, but doesn't give a birth year for her the way it does other characters. I was wrong about her being older, but she was definitely more worldly than Perrin was when she met him and that may have been what gave me the impression that she was a couple of years older. I was thinking her closer to Nynaeve's age than Perrin's. Sorry for the confusion over it.

[moratcorlm]

David Selig is correct. I should really get around to updating my computerized copy with the corrections.

 

EWOT is basing that description on Perrin's initial impression that "She was young—no older than he was, perhaps", which is, needless to say, inexact, as all the debate about Taim looking 30 meaning he's slowed and is really 200 years old and an Age of Legends Forsaken stuffed into a stasis box etc. goes to show.