How Many Trollics in Shayol Ghul ect.

[CrazyMike]

The Question and Arguement is:

 

"How Many Trollics are in Shayol Ghul and the Blight ect."

 

I Believe there are BILLIONS of Trollics in a Kind of Hybernation deep sleep in the Caves of Shayol Ghul and the Blight ect. just waiting to be awakened...

 

I hope someone will ask Robert Jordan to clear these Questions up for us:

 

(1) How Many Trollics there are

(2) Are the Trollics able to Hybernate or be put into a kind of Hybernation for extremely long periods of Time ; and finally

(3) How Long does it take to wake up the Trollics that are in Hybernation

 

:

 

I am certain that I read in the WoT series (do not remember which book) that there were Trollics in a storage or deep sleep or Hybernation in the caves in SHAYOL GHUL ,,, and I believe that the Shadow has been Breeding them and Storing them there for 10,000 years ,,, and consequently I believe there are BILLIONS of TROLLICs waiting to be awakened in SHAYOL GHUL...

Right or Wrong ,,, please help us out here .

Crazy Mike (a.k.a. Michael Curtis Miller)[/code]

[Guest Majsju]

Simply put...

 

1. No figure has been mentioned, neither in the novels, the BWB, or any interview, chat or other info from RJ I have ever heard of (and I'm pretty sure I've read everything that has an importance for the series)

 

2. Nothing has ever been said about hybernation. As far as I can recall, noone has even bothered to ask the question.

 

The logical answer would be that it Might be possible for individual trollocs, if the animal stock comes from an animal that naturally hybernates, and the animal stock is by far the greatest part. However, if the animal part was that dominant, I think we must talk about at least 85% here, the trolloc would not be able to function at all.

 

As for the Shadow having been breeding trollocs for 10000 years, the trollocs were created by Aginor during the AOL, which was 3ooo years ago. And considering the massive war that ended the AOL, there were no storing of trollocs going on even if it had been possible.

 

1000 years later the trolloc wars happened, if the shadow had had access to such amounts of trollocs, they would have used them. It was a close call, so perhaps as little as 25-50000 more would have guaranteed a victory for the shadow.

[Luckers]

Very likely Trolloc forces are being assembled just above Randland. In the Trolloc Wars assaults were made into the Waste and Shara as well, but that seems counter-productive this time.

 

My guess, somewhere in the excess of 5 million. Absolute top limit 10.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Orderly!!!!

[KaptainKaos]

I second that,"ORDERLY, WHERE ARE YOU WHEN YOU ARE SERIOUSLY NEEDED??" Okay I guess we will have to settle for Graendal, whether she helps or hurts it's definitely helping us.

[Gondring]

Well also consider that Trollocs wont be the DO's only weapon in the war. Insects, birds, the general parts of the animal kingdom stereotypically associated with Dark lords will probably appear as well. Not to mention probably a whole army of Darkfriends (Theyre probably out there yea)

Trollocs? 1 million maybe, Rand wont have that many by and stretch. So it seems likely thats all he'll need.

[raydurz]

I would say several million.

[Luckers]

Gondring, i put Rand's forces at around 2.2 million, likely more (i wanted to be conservative). If you want to look over my reasoning for that its at http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5678

 

In any case, in addition to that the Light has access to far more channelers then the shadow, not to mention angreal and sa'angreal (Rand has access to the Great Holding at Tear and those at Rhuidean, and then there is the Tower and what Elayne has)

 

Frankly, given RJ's assertion that the Light is in a bad when, and numbers suggestes present in the Trolloc Wars + the fact that likely Trolloc from all accross the Blight are being massed above Randland alone and not the Waste or Shara like in the Trolloc Wars i see there being at least 5 million, perhaps as high as 10 million... though i doubt any higher then that.

[DemandredFO]

In previous turnings of the wheel there must have been an Aginor type character every AoL. So the Dark One could have been breeding/making shadowspawn since the first AoL in secret caverns and then storing them. According to Ishamael, who was a great philosopher, the Dark One wouldn't have broken free in previous turnings, despite evidence to the contrary. Ishamael says this time is different, this time Shaitan will break the wheel and remake the world in his image. The Dark One will release ALL of his forces to bring this about, empty Shayl Ghoul to bring this about. This means that there could be alot more than 10 million but I donot think it is Billions.

[Guest Majsju]

It's extremely unlikely that the DO would have stashed away any forces. Every time the TG comes around, he will unleash everything he has to try to break free.

 

That Ishy talks about this time being different doesn't mean anything, he is not exactly the most trustworthy character in the books, and would have said anything to try to lure rand over to the DO.

 

And also, between the AOL and the 3rd Age there was a little incident known as the Breaking. Those "secret caverns" would have needed to be extremely deep to ensure that not everything in them was destroyed.

[DemandredFO]

But did the breaking touch the Blasted Lands where Shayl Ghul is? and that was just a theory Majsju I never said I was right.

[racha_giurgiu]

The breaking of the world affected all of the world not just Randland. That's my understanding

[Taishar Manetheren]

Do we even know if there was a blight before the braking?

[Guest Majsju]

Well, Shayol Ghul was an island before the Breaking...

[KaptainKaos]

The breaking effected at least every part of the world that had male channelers which seems to be all of the world.

 

Also Shayol Ghul was an island paradise in the Age of Legends so then there wasn't a Blight but during the War of Power it must have become something akin to what it is now right because Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions went there to seal the Bore where the Forsaken were meeting with the Dark One. Of coure afterwards everything could have been stirred up anyway.

[DemandredFO]

I think when the Bore was made shayl Ghul at least became a desert and also does anyone know if Seachen broke off from the mainland or if it was there and (2) does anyone know what the armies of the night were. Thanks

[RobertAlexWillis]

does anyone know if Seachen broke off from the mainland or if it was there and

 

 

The land masses in Randworld (to differentiate from Randland, the area covered by the map in each of the published books) are so completely different from what existed before the Breaking, that nothing can be said to have broken off from anything, or else everything broke off from everything else.

 

does anyone know what the armies of the night were

 

The "Armies of the Night" refer to the various armies of the native rulers of Seanchan, before the Consolidation. Basically anyone who opposed Luthair Paendrag Mondwhin, or his descendants, in setting up the Empire, is part of the "Armies of the Night"

[DemandredFO]

Thanks.

[Luckers]

Also Shayol Ghul was an island paradise in the Age of Legends so then there wasn't a Blight but during the War of Power it must have become something akin to what it is now right because Lews Therin and his Hundred Companions went there to seal the Bore where the Forsaken were meeting with the Dark One. Of coure afterwards everything could have been stirred up anyway.

 

The earliest reference to the Blight in Rand's Aiel Time Machine experience when he is in the secon incarnation of Jonai. Jonai was 63 at the beginning of the Breaking of the World, so at the time the Ogier mention the blight to him he may be as old as 160, though i doubt it. Personally i suspect it is maybe 20 or 30 years into the breaking. The Ogier speak of the Blight as if it is common knowled saying that they 'grow south' and this implies to me that they have been around for long enough for their position to be known even in the chaos of the Breaking.

 

So it seems possible that there was a Blight in the age of Legends. Possibly it was done as a part of Aginor's experiments in lands held by the shadow (therefore lands close to the island of Shayol Ghoul) Or possibly it was simply an effect caused by the closeness of the Dark One--likely he nuked all life on the island, but lands close by could have been effected.

[KaptainKaos]

Or possibly it was simply an effect caused by the closeness of the Dark One--likely he nuked all life on the island, but lands close by could have been effected.

 

That is exactly how I would think it happened. The Dark One's Bore was drilled into and within a short time I would think this is what would happen to the place that he is closest to in the world. This especially seems probable because of Demandred's account of what the heart of Shayol Ghul was like and how much the Dark One could actually do in the cave and surrounding area.

[Jellybelly]

The land masses in Randworld (to differentiate from Randland, the area covered by the map in each of the published books) are so completely different from what existed before the Breaking, that nothing can be said to have broken off from anything, or else everything broke off from everything else.

 

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on that count. Evidence given by the books and RJ himself indicates that the world of the Wheel is a later incarnation of our world. Therefore, I would contest that the damage of the breaking can be measured by comparing real world maps with the map in the BWB. Of course, that picture would not be completely accurate, as I suspect the maps in the books to reflect the fact that the mapmakers of that world have capabilities comparable to mapmakers of the fifteenth century in our world, and no access to satelite photos - and thus not be entirely accurate.

 

That aside, though, I contest that Seanchan is what is left of the Americas, the land of madmen to be the remains of Africa and Australia, and the main continent to be how Eurasia turned out. Or something along those lines. This is by no means based on mathematical calculation. Either way you can see that the effects of the Breaking would have to be disastrous if this was the fact, and a change of this kind would do justice to the descriptions of the breaking. I.e. most of Africa seems to have disappeared, and the Americas have certainly been put through the shredder. The outlines are still there, though.

[KaptainKaos]

I wouldn't go so far as to compare the Wheel of Time world to our world in terms of geography. It just wouldn't be logical given all the variables. You have to remember that there is no set amount of ages meaning that the third age in the Wheel of Time could be 50,000 years from our age or before our age.

 

This really makes it impossible to compare our world map to any of the maps in Wheel of Time. During the Breaking everything was moved and shifted in areas where men channeled so unless you have a map of the world during the Age of Legends and a map of the present Third Age there is really no way to rule out every possibility except in certain situations (like where Rand or one of the other Forsaken recognizes a certain landmark from the Age of Legends) or if you could ask Robert Jordan himself if he would even give the answer.

[Jellybelly]

Actually, I think I can make a pretty decent case for it. Although we have no way of telling how many years a whole turning of the Wheel will take, the Wheel of Time catechism tells us that when a given age returns, all memory of it will be lost, not even the remnant of a memory of a myth will remain. Now, we know that memory of deeds performed in our time has become legends in Randland. There is talk of "Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle", a reference to John Glenn. There is talk of "Mosk and Merk who fought with lances of fire", a reference to the Cold War. There is even an old Mercedes emblem in the Panarch's palace in Tanchico. This is certainly indicative of the fact that the Third Age is an age where our time has not been forgotten. RJ has said that the ages are not identical, and thus, in the next turning of the Wheel, it would be logical to assume that the next first man on the moon will not be named John Glenn, but something entirely different.

 

Built on this, I would say that it is very likely that the world prior to the Breaking looked very much indeed like the world we live in. Besides, 50 000 years of natural evolution will not really do a whole lot to the face of the word. That sort of thing takes millions of years. And, I mean, RJ makes a pretty big point of making sure we know that Randworld is this world at some stage or other, so why on earth would he make his map so similar to the world map if he did not want this idea to strafe us?

[RobertAlexWillis]

That aside, though, I contest that Seanchan is what is left of the Americas, the land of madmen to be the remains of Africa and Australia, and the main continent to be how Eurasia turned out. Or something along those lines. This is by no means based on mathematical calculation. Either way you can see that the effects of the Breaking would have to be disastrous if this was the fact, and a change of this kind would do justice to the descriptions of the breaking. I.e. most of Africa seems to have disappeared, and the Americas have certainly been put through the shredder. The outlines are still there, though.

 

I'm sorry, but you could put any three land masses on a map and draw that same conclusion.

[Jellybelly]

Yes, you could. You are quite correct. But given that we know RJ's world is our world, it is not a stretch in my opinion.