Here's an odd thought...

[dovien]

We know that each, the Holder ad the Bonded, get completely different advantages from each other...

What on earth are you basing that on? Both ends of the bond gain the same advantages and they can only be gained once.

[Mr Ares]

We know that each, the Holder ad the Bonded, get completely different advantages from each other...

What on earth are you basing that on? Both ends of the bond gain the same advantages and they can only be gained once.

That's not true. For example, the compulsive aspects of the bond, they go from bonder to bonded, not the other way around. Likewise, the ability to draw strength from a Warder is, as far as we have any reason to believe, one way only; the Warder cannot draw from his AS.

[blazetheearth]

We know that each, the Holder ad the Bonded, get completely different advantages from each other...

What on earth are you basing that on? Both ends of the bond gain the same advantages and they can only be gained once.

That's not true. For example, the compulsive aspects of the bond, they go from bonder to bonded, not the other way around. Likewise, the ability to draw strength from a Warder is, as far as we have any reason to believe, one way only; the Warder cannot draw from his AS.

 

 

Plus the enhanced Speed that Warders get, and enhanced Awareness. At no point in the series do we see Holders exhibiting these attributes. And the extra ability to take wounds that might cripple another, many times we see from the PoV of AS surprise over the amount of injuries their Warders had taken while still living. Why would the AS be surprised about that if they could do the same? All of this and what Mr Ares said show us that each one get different advantages from the bond.

[dovien]

For example, the compulsive aspects of the bond, they go from bonder to bonded, not the other way around. Likewise, the ability to draw strength from a Warder is, as far as we have any reason to believe, one way only; the Warder cannot draw from his AS.

Compulsion is something the bond can be twisted to perform but not an innate advantage of being bonded. A Warder gains strength and endurance just like the Aes Sedai does. Do you think it comes from nowhere? He must get it from her.

 

Plus the enhanced Speed that Warders get, and enhanced Awareness. At no point in the series do we see Holders exhibiting these attributes. And the extra ability to take wounds that might cripple another, ...

The points about speed and wounds are good ones, you might be right. I have this theory that one of the effects of a bond is to give the bondee a kind of passive link to the One Power through the bonder. This theory does account for things like extra awareness and endurance.

 

Perhaps it makes sense to say that there are some things that both the bonder and the bondee get from a bond and that other advantages are a product of which side of the bond a person is on and their gender and possibly the gender of the person on the other side of the bond. This is possibly supported by the way Birgitte and Elayne mirror each other, the way an Asha'man bond enhances the natural dominance of the man over the woman and the way the Aes Sedai bond gives her the upper hand in her relationship with her Warders (but not all the time).

[akira.taylor]

For example, the compulsive aspects of the bond, they go from bonder to bonded, not the other way around. Likewise, the ability to draw strength from a Warder is, as far as we have any reason to believe, one way only; the Warder cannot draw from his AS.

Compulsion is something the bond can be twisted to perform but not an innate advantage of being bonded. A Warder gains strength and endurance just like the Aes Sedai does. Do you think it comes from nowhere? He must get it from her.

 

I think I disagree with you about it being "not an innate advantage of being bonded." I agree that it requires "twisting" the bond, but it seems to me that this is an innate ability of the bond. (This is, I suppose, a semantics issue more than anything else.)

 

Plus the enhanced Speed that Warders get, and enhanced Awareness. At no point in the series do we see Holders exhibiting these attributes. And the extra ability to take wounds that might cripple another, ...

The points about speed and wounds are good ones, you might be right. I have this theory that one of the effects of a bond is to give the bondee a kind of passive link to the One Power through the bonder. This theory does account for things like extra awareness and endurance.

 

Perhaps it makes sense to say that there are some things that both the bonder and the bondee get from a bond and that other advantages are a product of which side of the bond a person is on and their gender and possibly the gender of the person on the other side of the bond. This is possibly supported by the way Birgitte and Elayne mirror each other, the way an Asha'man bond enhances the natural dominance of the man over the woman and the way the Aes Sedai bond gives her the upper hand in her relationship with her Warders (but not all the time).

 

Um, if the bondee gets a passive link to the One Power (which doesn't seem likely to me, but I can't rationally support the position), then they wouldn't need to be getting strength from the Aes Sedai. Also, Warders probably have more strength/endurance than most Aes Sedai (a Warder is a combat monster, it's what they do; Aes Sedai are more intellectuals).

 

I think it is established that Elayne and Birgitte mirror each other so much (compared to other Aes Sedai/Warder pairs) is that they are both women (which seems to mean that the emotions are too close to how they would feel to be able to tell that it isn't their emotion).

 

A note: The surprise Aes Sedai feel about the amount of damage that Warders can survive doesn't actually mean that the Aes Sedai don't have a similarly increased capacity for surviving damage, just that Warders can take a lot of damage. Aes Sedai rarely are injured without killing them (it happens, but most people/shadowspawn attempt to ensure the Aes Sedai doesn't have a chance to retaliate). Honestly, the Aes Sedai shouldn't be so surprised about how much damage Warders can take (they've been able to take the same level of damage for over two thousand years, after all), but they are. (This isn't criticism, or an accusation of a mistake, just an observation.)

[mb]

I have also thought about a bond chain - ie: Merise bonded Narishima then Narishima bonds Corele who bonded Flynn, Flynn then bonds Daigan, who bonded Eben, and so son and so forth. How much pain would the first bonded feel from the last boned? What kind of effect would these various bonds have?

A chain (like I guessed in an earlier post) would be not much different from multiple bond combinations. Each person I guess would feel only as much pain as come through that person's bonds.

In a 4 person chain (A bonded B, B bonded C, C bonded D, D bonded A); A would feel B's & D's pain, B only C's & A's, C only D's & B's, D only A's & C's.

The effect/effects the bonds would have would probably be not much different from the effects of multiple bond combinations.

 

Bonding a different person and/or being bonded by a different person, I guess both of those would not effect in any way any other warder bonds the channeler might be part of.

[jmikea]

* Someone can be bonded twice or plus, and someone can bond more than one person. (Rand and his four ladies, Logain, Toveine and Gabrelle, Green Ajah)

No matter how many times Rand is bonded, he remains at the same level of physical ability. To me this strongly suggests that bonding isn't cumulative in the way you are suggesting.

 

He never got a good thumping before being bonded, and he was already a badass when it happened so we can't really compare his ability to fight or withstand punishment before and after. Who's to say he didn't gain from the multiple bondings? We do know he was pushing himself harder than anyone around him was comfortable with, for a really long time. Was it his natural willpower, Two Rivers stubbornness, or the effect of one or more bonds?

 

In general though I'm shaky on whether bonding channelers helps the channeler the same as it would a non-channeler. Has there been any mention of bonded Asha'man fighting longer than unbonded ones or sensing shadowspawn like a warder? I wonder if it's something we assume but might not be true.

[dovien]

Um, if the bondee gets a passive link to the One Power (which doesn't seem likely to me, but I can't rationally support the position), then they wouldn't need to be getting strength from the Aes Sedai.

What I mean is that I think the Warder is linked to the One Power through the Aes Sedai, she is his conduit to the One Power and thus he draws energy passively (as opposed to active channeling) from her. This would be in the category of other innate properties of channelers such as sensing soul absence or ignoring temperatures.

 

I think it is established that Elayne and Birgitte mirror each other so much (compared to other Aes Sedai/Warder pairs) is that they are both women ...

Yes, that's one of the things that makes me think what I wrote above. It makes me wonder what would happen if a man bonded a man...

[gambril]

For example, I think most people are hoping the Seanchan have to give up the instituion of damane. I could see them pointing out the hypocrisy of Warders, or the Three Oaths, and demanding that those change as well.

 

I believe in free will. It would be nice to see WOT-world value it as well.

 

I just had a lengthy discussion related to this very topic in the Spoilers sub-forum (Discuss the Full Book) and some people would utterly reject the idea of Aes Sedai being guilty of the many violations that I've found in the books and cited as examples. You'd be surprised to see just how many people find the Seanchan totally repulsive and the White Tower almost free of blame for any potential violations to fundamental rights, which IMO, is astounding.

 

So, all in all, while I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, randsc, I believe we're part of a minority and not the other way around.

 

I'm right there in the minority with ya I suppose. I would shed not one tear and would at a minimum smile inside if the White Tower got it's due from the Seanchan and was destroyed. The so-called Aes Sedai of the third age are disgusting in almost every way. This doesn't exempt the Seanchan from their practices of slavery and damane, but they are justified in how they view Aes Sedai and the White Tower.

[Morh]

Anythings possible, just look at when Min got bonded to Rand...

[randsc]

Poor Min. She's going to be horribly distracted every time Rand OR Elayne OR Aviendha has a lustful thought? There won't be enough whiskey in the world...

[Darth Krewl]

I'm right there in the minority with ya I suppose. I would shed not one tear and would at a minimum smile inside if the White Tower got it's due from the Seanchan and was destroyed. The so-called Aes Sedai of the third age are disgusting in almost every way. This doesn't exempt the Seanchan from their practices of slavery and damane, but they are justified in how they view Aes Sedai and the White Tower.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

Looking at bonding, precisely, I think it's just a tad above actual leashing, because in many ways, the bonded becomes the property of the bonder. They gain lots of abilities yes, but they come at the expense of their own freewill, thoughts and feelings, plus they have to defer to the person holding the bond. It's more subtle and concealed under the fact that the bonded party "chose" to be bonded freely, but it is another kind of bondage; yet one more example of the many things were the AS of the Third Age have gone wrong, IMO.

[blazetheearth]

* Someone can be bonded twice or plus, and someone can bond more than one person. (Rand and his four ladies, Logain, Toveine and Gabrelle, Green Ajah)

No matter how many times Rand is bonded, he remains at the same level of physical ability. To me this strongly suggests that bonding isn't cumulative in the way you are suggesting.

 

He never got a good thumping before being bonded, and he was already a badass when it happened so we can't really compare his ability to fight or withstand punishment before and after. Who's to say he didn't gain from the multiple bondings? We do know he was pushing himself harder than anyone around him was comfortable with, for a really long time. Was it his natural willpower, Two Rivers stubbornness, or the effect of one or more bonds?

 

In general though I'm shaky on whether bonding channelers helps the channeler the same as it would a non-channeler. Has there been any mention of bonded Asha'man fighting longer than unbonded ones or sensing shadowspawn like a warder? I wonder if it's something we assume but might not be true.

 

Not really but there is a possible example of AS getting extra endurance in channeling when they are the bonded one. The fight against the trollocs when Rand teaches Logain DeathGates. Tovine and Co. channeled all through the battle then they were going around healing and burning dead bodies after the battle. While we have seen the Supergirls perform feats like that, the only other AS that seemed to have anywhere near that endurance was Moiraine, and even she collapsed a few times from a lot less channeling. And Logain said that he did not want the Sisters to get too tired, which would indicate that none of them were near collapse at that point.

 

And Asha'man would sense Shadowspawn anyway. That is a gift of being able to touch the One Power. Rand did several times in the Waste and other places. He even mentioned at the beginning of TDR that he could have given warning if he had known what he was sensing.