WT break/unity

[Feral]

I was wondering last night about what would have happened to the White Tower if the rebels had never run away to Salidar and wanted other people's opinions. I know pretty much everyone will agree it's better off under Egwene's rule than Elaida's, so this is more about comparing the White Tower broken under Elaida's rule, to how it would have been with Elaida if it had remained whole. Would it have been the same, better or worse? A few points to consider:

 

• Would the Tower remaining whole have made Elaida even MORE power crazy and given her an ego boost? Or was it the stress and pressure of the split that helped make Elaida as mad as she finally became?
  
• If strong, ambitious characters like Romanda and Lelaine had remained, would they have been able to counter and control Elaida more successfully?
  
• Would the Red Ajah have gained such dominance if the other Ajahs in the Tower hadn't been so reduced?
  
• Would Sisters have turned on each other so much if there were more in the Tower?
  
• Would the Black Ajah have found it as easy to manipulate things if the Tower hadn't broken and there were more Sister's to notice anything strange?
  
• Would Sisters have been so easily bullied if the split had never happened?
  
• If the Tower had not been preoccupied with it's own troubles, what would it have been able to do about Rand and the Black Tower? And how much control would the WT have ended up exerting over the countries of Randland?
  
• Would the Seanshan threat have been taken more seriously? Would the WT have tried to do something about them?
  

 

It's the last two points that make me believe things could have been a whole lot worse if the WT had remained whole. The split reduced the respect rulers had for Aes Sedai so it lessened their manipulative powers. If it had not happened, the WT may have been able to convince rulers to join and help capture Rand more effectively. Also, they could have ended up sending a serious force against Rand/Black Tower/Seanchan (if they still believed the rumours to be exagerated), which would have resulted in blood baths all round.

 

And on a lighter note, the upsides to the Tower not splitting:

 

1. Nynaeve might have been made a proper Aes Sedai, which would have spared her and the readers the "You're still an Accepted, child." "Am not!" "You are, child." "Am not!" *braid tug*

2. Elayne and Egwene would have been kept bundled up in the Tower as Accepted for the next few years, so we wouldn't have had to put up with Gawyn's whining.

3. The Tower would have plonked Elayne on the throne of Andor, sparing us her struggle for the crown, which became rather tedious at times.

[Darth Krewl]

Hmm...

 

You pose some very interesting questions here. I'm just under the impression that you and I may be looking at the White Tower from completely different sides of the spectrum.

 

As I read the series, I became more and more annoyed with the overall mentality and behavior of Aes Sedai of the Third Age. And I don't believe this was by accident. I believe Robert Jordan deliberately planned for this to be the case all along, for a very simple reason...

 

The fall of Tar Valon.

 

It is necessary for many reasons. First off, a world so heavily influenced by channelers of one single gender is a world lacking balance. It's necessary for the Tower to fall because most (if not all) of their rules and laws were designed and conceived for a world where male channelers were all but a hindrance and a danger to all. Therefore, a new institution needs to be established with the participation of both sexes and for that to happen, female Aes Sedai of the Third Age will have to "unlearn what they have learned".

 

Secondly, through knowledge of the ways and traditions of other communities of female channelers (the Windfinders, the Wise Ones and the Kinswomen) it has already been proven that, even when effectively in place, many of the laws, customs and traditions of the White Tower are flawed. (such as relying on power levels to distribute authority or the use of the Binder - known as Oath Rod to them - for the three oaths, thus effectively shortening life expectancy amongst Aes Sedai or their recruitment methods, which have seen their numbers diminish greatly in recent years).

 

And finally, all of the above leads me to believe that the White Tower has become obsolete. Especially in a world where nothing lasts forever and goes round and round as the Wheel weaves. IMO, the White Tower had its beginning, reached its height and what we've been witnessing through the series is its ending; the cycle completed.

 

So in this case, I'd have to say that, though influenced by external intervention through the Forsaken (Mesaana in this case), the split of the Tower was a major step towards that end. The fact that Egwene's already planning major reforms to Tower Law, added to the major threats that both, the Seanchan and the Last Battle represent, leads me to believe that everything points in the same direction: no more White Tower after it's all said and done. And a new institution (the recycled return of the Hall of the Servants, so to speak) is to rise in its stead.

 

I for one, believe it would be a very fitting end to this storyline in TWoT. Not to mention that the Aes Sedai of the Third Age would seem to be a far cry from their counterparts from the Age of Legends and in DIRE need for humbling. Therefore, I do believe that a harsh lesson that will teach them this is coming one way or the other.

 

And on a lighter note, the upsides to the Tower not splitting:

 

1. Nynaeve might have been made a proper Aes Sedai, which would have spared her and the readers the "You're still an Accepted, child." "Am not!" "You are, child." "Am not!" *braid tug*

2. Elayne and Egwene would have been kept bundled up in the Tower as Accepted for the next few years, so we wouldn't have had to put up with Gawyn's whining.

3. The Tower would have plonked Elayne on the throne of Andor, sparing us her struggle for the crown, which became rather tedious at times.

 

As for this, well,

 

1. thank the Light, the Creator and even the Dark One for Nynaeve not becoming contaminated by the Aes Sedai mentality lol! She's quite obnoxious, I agree, but at least the woman is an authentic "servant of all", given the way she's more than willing to overlook Aes Sedai recent tradition and even defy her more "experienced" peers, in order to serve the common good. The Aes Sedai do not do this. A handful serve the interests of the Tower and most serve only themselves.

 

2. well, personally what I find most irritating in Gawyn is his hatred for Rand and his extremely deluded wish to fight and kill him. Rand would kill this kid with a sneeze, aided by a touch of saidin. And that wouldn't change if E & E had remained in the Tower.

 

3. Elayne didn't accept the throne from Rand, because she wanted to earn it and not to be seen as a puppet handled by the Dragon Reborn. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that she wouldn't have accepted it from Tar Valon either for fear of being seen as a puppet of the White Tower.

[Jon Paul]

I know pretty much everyone will agree it's better off under Egwene's rule than Elaida's.

 

But is it really? Unified under Egwene's rule the White Tower is an even greater threat to Rand and the forces of the Light. When it was broken and shattered it really wasn't that much of a threat. Now when they screw up they do so on a royally grander scale.

 

Not to mention, whether it's Elaida or Egwene (they're basically carbon copies of the other, except Egwene's a better politician), the institution has forgotten what it is to be Aes Sedai.

[Feral]

3. Elayne didn't accept the throne from Rand, because she wanted to earn it and not to be seen as a puppet handled by the Dragon Reborn. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that she wouldn't have accepted it from Tar Valon either for fear of being seen as a puppet of the White Tower.

 

Yes, but unlike Rand the WT wouldn't take no for an answer. Elayne and the rest of Andor might not have liked it, but I'm inclined to think the WT would have gotten its way.

 

I know pretty much everyone will agree it's better off under Egwene's rule than Elaida's.

 

But is it really? Unified under Egwene's rule the White Tower is an even greater threat to Rand and the forces of the Light. When it was broken and shattered it really wasn't that much of a threat. Now when they screw up they do so on a royally grander scale.

 

Not to mention, whether it's Elaida or Egwene (they're basically carbon copies of the other, except Egwene's a better politician), the institution has forgotten what it is to be Aes Sedai.

 

By "better" I was refering to things like opening the novice books, acknowledging the Seanchan threat, welcoming the knowledge of other channeling groups and all that. I agree that she might actually be worse than Elaida when it comes to Rand, because she knows him and his friends better, and she's more competent than Elaida.

[Jon Paul]

By "better" I was refering to things like opening the novice books, acknowledging the Seanchan threat, welcoming the knowledge of other channeling groups and all that. I agree that she might actually be worse than Elaida when it comes to Rand, because she knows him and his friends better, and she's more competent than Elaida.

 

I think it extends far beyond incompetence with Rand. Look at her moves towards channellers outside the bounds of the Tower. Why is she trying to forge links with the Wise Ones/Windfinders and the Tower? Not for their best interests and not for the world's interests but for the Tower's.

 

Everything Egwene does is geared towards increasing the Tower's influence and by extension her own. The Pattern can burn for all Aes Sedai care. It's all about "me, me, me, me" with that lot. Egwene is the exact same as Elaida in wanting the Pattern to bend to the will and authority of the White Tower and she's more dangerous than Elaida because she's much more competent and therefore more reliable to feck everything up for the Light's forces.

 

I've said it before but I honestly wish Rand would just go too Tar Valon, bring a seat with him, sit down in the middle of the Hall of the Sitters and tell them "fine, you do it."

[Feral]

Well, as we're discussing whether or not she's better for the WT it doesn't really matter if all her motivations revolve around it. And I have to disagree when it comes to the Aiel Wise Ones. I think she would genuinely want to do what's best for them. The only problem is, I don't know if they'd agree on what's best, and I don't think Egwene would be easily convinced she's wrong lol.

[Jon Paul]

Well, as we're discussing whether or not she's better for the WT it doesn't really matter if all her motivations revolve around it.

 

Just because her motivations revolve around what she sees as best for the Tower doesn't mean that her plots and schemes are for the best.

 

And I have to disagree when it comes to the Aiel Wise Ones. I think she would genuinely want to do what's best for them. The only problem is, I don't know if they'd agree on what's best, and I don't think Egwene would be easily convinced she's wrong lol.

 

That's exactly it. Egwene isn't out for the Wise One's best interests, she's out for whatever she, the Almighty Amyrlin, hand-chosen by the Creator (who, don't you forget, is female), the Light Made Flesh, decides what is best for the Wise Ones.

[Darth Krewl]

Yes, but unlike Rand the WT wouldn't take no for an answer. Elayne and the rest of Andor might not have liked it, but I'm inclined to think the WT would have gotten its way.

 

Hmm...not so sure about this. Not after seeing Elayne fight so doggedly for her Throne.

 

I think it would've probably led to quite an interesting dilemma for both parties but, since Rand was in charge of Andor and not the White Tower (which hasn't really done anything at all since early in the series, but try to control everyone and everything, hindering the efforts of the Light in the process, truth be told), it's mere speculation and open to debate, IMO.

 

Still, I for one, can't see Elayne letting the Tower control her as queen of Andor. Not a chance heh heh!

 

EDIT: Now, I just thought of something related 100% to your thread...come think of it, the schism and eventual split of the WT was extremely convenient to the forces of the Light.

 

While the AS were squabbling and bickering amongst themselves, trying to heal the rift, Rand was more free to roam and do what he needed to do (fulfill the Prophecies, w/o the Tower nagging him).

 

Nynaeve was free to be with him and assist him in one of the most monumental events in the history of the WoT world (the cleansing).

 

Mat and Perrin could gather their armies and roam the lands, w/o having sisters all over them, especially Browns, to study and record their "Ta'vereness".

 

And finally, Elayne was able to claim the throne of Andor for herself, even if this did cost her people fearly.

 

So, in addition to my theory that we're witnessing the last days of the White Tower, IMO, the split open many doors that otherwise, would've been closed for the main characters of the Light.

[Feral]

Well, as we're discussing whether or not she's better for the WT it doesn't really matter if all her motivations revolve around it.

 

Just because her motivations revolve around what she sees as best for the Tower doesn't mean that her plots and schemes are for the best.

 

And I have to disagree when it comes to the Aiel Wise Ones. I think she would genuinely want to do what's best for them. The only problem is, I don't know if they'd agree on what's best, and I don't think Egwene would be easily convinced she's wrong lol.

 

That's exactly it. Egwene isn't out for the Wise One's best interests, she's out for whatever she, the Almighty Amyrlin, hand-chosen by the Creator (who, don't you forget, is female), the Light Made Flesh, decides what is best for the Wise Ones.

 

Just because you don't readily accept what someone thinks is best for themselves, doesn't mean you don't WANT what's best for them. Just means you see things differentyl and are really stubborn and mule-headed.

 

Yes, but unlike Rand the WT wouldn't take no for an answer. Elayne and the rest of Andor might not have liked it, but I'm inclined to think the WT would have gotten its way.

 

Hmm...not so sure about this. Not after seeing Elayne fight so doggedly for her Throne.

 

I think it would've probably led to quite an interesting dilemma for both parties but, since Rand was in charge of Andor and not the White Tower (which hasn't really done anything at all since early in the series, but try to control everyone and everything, hindering the efforts of the Light in the process, truth be told), it's mere speculation and open to debate, IMO.

 

Still, I for one, can't see Elayne letting the Tower control her as queen of Andor. Not a chance heh heh!

 

EDIT: Now, I just thought of something related 100% to your thread...come think of it, the schism and eventual split of the WT was extremely convenient to the forces of the Light.

 

While the AS were squabbling and bickering amongst themselves, trying to heal the rift, Rand was more free to roam and do what he needed to do (fulfill the Prophecies, w/o the Tower nagging him).

 

Nynaeve was free to be with him and assist him in one of the most monumental events in the history of the WoT world (the cleansing).

 

Mat and Perrin could gather their armies and roam the lands, w/o having sisters all over them, especially Browns, to study and record their "Ta'vereness".

 

And finally, Elayne was able to claim the throne of Andor for herself, even if this did cost her people fearly.

 

So, in addition to my theory that we're witnessing the last days of the White Tower, IMO, the split open many doors that otherwise, would've been closed for the main characters of the Light.

 

Yay well done for posting on topic lol :D

 

I don't think Elayne would let the Tower control her once she was queen, but I really don't get how she could have stopped them putting her on the throne in the first place. If they bullied all her rivals into backing down and supporting her, then she could hardly decline and demand that they fight it out fairly.

 

As for your other points after the edit, I agree with everything except the comment on Nyn. Personally I think she would have had more freedom if the Tower had remained whole, because I do believe she would have been raised to the shawl fairly quickly. However, this is on the condition that she managed to do a Moiraine (New Spring) and escape the WT and its plans for her.

[Darth Krewl]

Yay well done for posting on topic lol :D

 

I don't think Elayne would let the Tower control her once she was queen, but I really don't get how she could have stopped them putting her on the throne in the first place. If they bullied all her rivals into backing down and supporting her, then she could hardly decline and demand that they fight it out fairly.

 

As for your other points after the edit, I agree with everything except the comment on Nyn. Personally I think she would have had more freedom if the Tower had remained whole, because I do believe she would have been raised to the shawl fairly quickly. However, this is on the condition that she managed to do a Moiraine (New Spring) and escape the WT and its plans for her.

 

lol...that's unfair! I've stayed on topic. I just extrapolated a bit, thinking that the split was the first (and major) step towards the end of the White Tower as it has been since its creation, thus giving way to a new, balanced Hall of the Servants, as it was in the AOL. So, it IS related and I cry foul heh heh...

 

So, anyways, if Andorian nobles had been bullied by Tar Valon into accepting Elayne as their queen, I believe this would've been counterproductive. In time, those nobles who opposed her would come to resent her more and would start plotting her removal/demise soon enough...if not turn to the Shadow, in exchange for power...like many Darkfriends have. In fact, it's this sort of thing done by the White Tower that has led many to turn to the dark side, IMO.

 

But that's another huge can of worms that I won't open here. Suffice to say that Elayne would never feel safe or be perceived as the legitimate ruler of Andor, anymore than if she had taken the throne directly from Rand. Now, don't get me wrong, I think she made a mistake by refusing to take Rand up on his offer, given the state of affairs in her world at this point but, I believe she would've cut a deal with pal Egwene, promising that she'd take the throne for herself and then work hand in hand with Tar Valon.

 

As for Nynaeve, well, I strongly believe that, had she been indoctrinated in the ways of the Aes Sedai, chances are that she wouldn't have agreed to help Rand cleanse the taint (and perhaps other stuff in the future, like using Callandor, for instance) because, by being away from him, she could've seen him as crazy and dangerous as Egwene or other AS who haven't been around him do. So, in this sense, I believe everyone was much better off by having Nynaeve free to roam alongside Rand.

[trench]

I think that if there had been no schisim in the tower Eladia would have been a much bigger screw up. She only ever thought of how to control people, and make them bend to her will, under a united tower Eladia would have heaped punishment's upon the Blue's and against anyone who even remotely seems to disagree with her. This would only have served to deepen the divides between the Ajah's. Which would have made it more of a Civil War within the Tower. The Blue would have eventually rallied and brought down Eladia causing yet another diposing and maybe even another battle between Warders. If something like this had occured I doubt there would be a tower left, and we would have 7 cabal's of female channelers trying to manipulate events.

 

As for Romanda, she was in retirement so she would have played no roll. With no split the Ajah Heads would not have setup there scheme involving the unqualified Sitters. So there influence would have been turned much more towards Eladia and they would have perhaps suceeded. But they prove themselves to be bunglers proportional to Eladia.

 

As long as Eladia was Amyrilin the Red would be dominate, trying to keep all the other Ajah's in check. This would mean that the divides between Ajah's would probably have been equal.

 

If the rebels were still in the tower, there would still have been hard feelings. The sisters would still scheme and sniff at each other so I think this problem would only have been compounded.

 

As for the Black, well I think they would have screwed things up for the Light no matter how this had played out, and the sisters sucessfuly ignored the Black Ajah's prsence for a thousand of years so this would probably have continued.

 

The sisters would still have been pushed around by the channelers of other countries because 99% are preety much worthless. Being around Rand would have brought them into contact with these people anyway. So there ineptitude would have been discovered no matter who controled the tower.

 

As for Rand and the Black Tower. Thank the light they were so perocupied because I bet Rand would have snapped sooner and probably would have broken the Wheel and ended existance. As for there infulence on the other countries, this would have probably been removed by Rand's Ta'veren effect.

 

On the Seanchan problem, probably not because Dreaming is a lost talent and Aes Sedai are never wrong so no one would have beleived Egwene about them anyway.

 

As for Nynaeve I have to agree with the majority and say thank god the Tower never got their hooks in her and had fully indoctrinated her like Egwene. Her growth through out the series has been amazing.

[Feral]

See I have a lot more faith in Nynaeve than everyone else seems to. I don't think anything would stop her wanting to help Egwene and the three boys, even if she was brain washed day in day out, and they all grew Trolloc horns she'd still be there for them. After all, look at her in tEotW. First, she went to all the effort of following them; second she didn't turn back when she realised they'd be chased all the way by Trollocs and Fades, even though Lan told her she'd be safe to do so; third she travelled the Ways; fourth she went into the Blight. After risking her life for the Emmond's Fielders so often, I don't think she'd let a bunch of women she's never liked or admired change her.

 

 

So, anyways, if Andorian nobles had been bullied by Tar Valon into accepting Elayne as their queen, I believe this would've been counterproductive. In time, those nobles who opposed her would come to resent her more and would start plotting her removal/demise soon enough...if not turn to the Shadow, in exchange for power...like many Darkfriends have. In fact, it's this sort of thing done by the White Tower that has led many to turn to the dark side, IMO.

 

But that's another huge can of worms that I won't open here. Suffice to say that Elayne would never feel safe or be perceived as the legitimate ruler of Andor, anymore than if she had taken the throne directly from Rand. Now, don't get me wrong, I think she made a mistake by refusing to take Rand up on his offer, given the state of affairs in her world at this point but, I believe she would've cut a deal with pal Egwene, promising that she'd take the throne for herself and then work hand in hand with Tar Valon.

 

 

Oh, I agree that in the long term it would make things incredibly unstable. But with the Last Battle on the horizon, we're not really talking long term. Elayne's battle for the throne just killed off loads of soldiers they could have used in the LB and generally weakened Andor. Of course, it may be worth that price IF she survives the LB and IF Andor survives. But those are quite optomistic assumptions to make, and there's still no certainty that people wouldn't take advantage of the chaos after the LB to rebel against Elayne, or maybe even another country might try to take Andor over. Whereas if Elayne had let the WT interfere, Andor would be stronger (if not very happy) to face the Last Battle, then it would probably have fallen apart after. Or not, because if Elayne did a good job of dealing with the LB, people would probably want to keep her on the throne. IF Andor survives at all. I guess really it's a question of whether you'd prefer the chaos to happen before Tarmon Gaidon, or after.

[blazetheearth]

I agree that Egwene and Elaida are pretty much carbon copies of each other, especially when we see from both PoV's that both are and have thought for a very long time: 'I know what is best for the Tower, and the World. it is MY opinion that is right and everyone else is just flat WRONG, so I will not listen {sticks fingers in ears} NaNaNaNaNaNa." (very similar to some of the posters on DM that rely on opinion and not fact)

 

The biggest difference is in the nature of each of their opinions, and how they executed getting others to come to their side of the issue. Eladia used brute force and "penances" and "demotions" to do it, where as Egwene has used manipulation, lying, and scheming (like any proper AS) to get what she wants.

 

There are many, many more similarities (i.e. Both think that men don't know their a** from a hole in the ground, ect) but I definitely think that breaking the Tower was one of the biggest mistakes that the Forsaken made,

I don't think that breaking it was meant to be the actual outcome of having Suian ousted. Whole under thumb of a Chosen was most likely the outcome hoped for by the Shadow. I do not think that the SAS would have stayed separate long had it not been for Suain, Leane and Min showing up w/ Logain

 

And based on that let's look at the Tower whole with Suian out and Eladia in:

 

Black Ajah as keeper. Black Ajah as how many Sitters total in unbroken Tower? I really can't remember the number but also, don't forget that at the time Sheriam had been MoN but as we saw later in tGS was really a reluctant BA member. The elevation of Silvianna really confuses me, as I would have thought that Katerine would have been a better choice to promote to further BA goals.

 

Impact on story -

Rand's kidnapping probably would have happened sooner as he wouldn't have been meeting with SAS embassy in Camelyn, and if it happened sooner Perrin may not have been able to come to his rescue, and (while I'm personally not sure how much they really helped) Perrin wouldn't have had any AS on his side during the rescue, and of course the part of the Prophecy that the aftermath of this rescue referred to would not have come true.

 

Nyn and El leaving Tanchico wouldn't have wanted to go back to the Tower w/ Eladia in charge, and most likely would have went looking for Rand instead of SAS. Which would have put Elayne on Throne of Andor quicker but stopped the trip to Ebou Dar completely, as the two girls would not have searched TAR for "something that would help sway the Hall of the Tower (of SAS) to support Rand" (remember that is actually what they were seeking when they found the Bowl of Winds in TAR)

 

Egwene wouldn't have gone back to the Tower w/ Eladia in charge, and wouldn't have been summoned back the way she was in TAR, actually it seems likely that Egwene would have adopted an Aiel way of life and become a WO so that she could stay close to Rand and influence him.

 

Suian and Leane would be dead. The WT would have kept it's network of EaE in place, and been getting much more information that could have been used by the BA, since all BA were kept out of the reports that Suian passed directly to Eggy in the SAS camp. Suian would have likely broken entirely eventually under the Question, and then all of the reports that she had gotten would have ended up in Alviarin's (sp?) hands instead.

 

Gareth Bryne would still be sitting on his estates in Andor, tending sheep.

 

Hmmmm... I know I left out a lot, but you can see from this how much outside the WT was affected by the split.

 

I doubt the Seanchan would have been taken more seriously.

 

And as far as the BA goes:

 

1. They caused the split in the first place

2. They had spent over 2000 years hiding and manipulating events in a whole Tower, I see no reason for that to change. (Remember it was Eladia herself that started the search for them even among her followers, even if it was by accident)

3. With Messanna among them, I could see the WT ending up like the 'schools' she started in AoL, where students are taught "the Glories of the Great Lord" by the 13x13 method if necessary.

 

 

Edited for spelling

[Mr Ares]

3. Elayne didn't accept the throne from Rand, because she wanted to earn it and not to be seen as a puppet handled by the Dragon Reborn. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that she wouldn't have accepted it from Tar Valon either for fear of being seen as a puppet of the White Tower.

Yes, but unlike Rand the WT wouldn't take no for an answer. Elayne and the rest of Andor might not have liked it, but I'm inclined to think the WT would have gotten its way.

The AS are, unlike Rand, experienced politicians, and so if she simply put it to them that being seen as a WT puppet will harm the stability of her rule, then they might well accept it. Hell, they're probably smart enough not to say something as stupid as they were giving her the throne - it was well meant, but it did cause her problems. Of course, given that Elayne would have been kept on a short leash as an Accepted in the Tower if there was no schism, it shouldn't have been as much of a problem for her to go to Caemlyn and simply take the throne before things deteriorated to the point where she needed to take it by force. Unless her and Nynaeve never returned to the Tower in FoH, of course. But that means she would have to keep below the radar, because if she took the throne, the Tower would know exactly where she is, and would drag her off to complete her training as soon as she had the throne. Siuan, Leane and Logain would not have had the Salidar option for their retreat - if they escaped execaution in the Tower, I would say joining up with Rand directly would be their best course of action. If Siuan takes Moiraine's place, it means there is less need for Cadsuane, so that could have an effect on when she shows up and how she acts when she does. If Siuan had met up with Bryne, he would be another Great Captain in Rand's service.

 

Egwene might have stayed with the Wise Ones longer - it was Salidar that called her back. So she might end up becoming a Wise One rather than AS. If Nynaeve and Elayne decide to join up with Rand, then Moggy is probably interrogated by Wise Ones rather than kept as a servant by Nynaeve and Elayne. So the Tower might end up being rather delayed in gaining Traveling.

 

As for the WT itself, Elaida would still be just as poor a leader, still just as manipulated by the BA. Alviarin would probably still try to have the Ajahs at one another's throats, and therefore the efectiveness of the WT would be just as diminished. But I think the Seanchan disaster would have been much worse, with no Egwene to save their bacon. After the raid, if Elaida was gone their would be a power vacuum, and the Ajah heads would probably rise to fill it, probably installing a puppet Amyrlin. As there would be no BA hunt, no Great Purge, the BA would still be rife within the ranks of the AS on the eve of TG. However, some good might come out of all this: as Logain went to Rand first, he becomes the guy put in charge of the BT, so it is doubtful it becomes a Dreadlord training camp - Taim, when he showed up, would just not be able to move as openly.

[Feral]

On the subject of the BA, I wasn't talking so much about them being discovered or even taken anymore seriously. Just that with more people in the Tower, it would have been perhaps a bit more likely that they'd be caught out on anything they said that might conflict with something they said to someone else, that kinda thing. So they would have had to have been a bit more careful if the Tower had remained whole. Also, there'd have been more people around to notice if something's a bit wrong, and then make it right again before it could have the desired effect. Eg. if a Black Sister ordered the Tower Guards to stand down in a certain part of the Tower Grounds so they could sneak something in, there'd be a better chance of another Sister noticing and telling the guards to return (thus ruining th BA's plan) if there were more Sisters in the Tower. Besides, you'd think it would be a BIT more likely they would actually have discovered the BA (aside from the Pevara group). I know they haven't over the last however many years, but the LB has never been about to happen before. At the moment, the BA should be schemeing their little black hearts out and the more active they are, the more chance they'll get caught surely.

 

Also, when it comes to the Seanchan I didn't mean they might suddenly take the accounts of the three girls more seriously, or believe Egwene's dreams. I meant that there'd have been a greater chance of the Tower having contact with an Aes Sedai who witnessed something of the Seanchan.

[blazetheearth]

3. Elayne didn't accept the throne from Rand, because she wanted to earn it and not to be seen as a puppet handled by the Dragon Reborn. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that she wouldn't have accepted it from Tar Valon either for fear of being seen as a puppet of the White Tower.

Yes, but unlike Rand the WT wouldn't take no for an answer. Elayne and the rest of Andor might not have liked it, but I'm inclined to think the WT would have gotten its way.

The AS are, unlike Rand, experienced politicians, and so if she simply put it to them that being seen as a WT puppet will harm the stability of her rule, then they might well accept it. Hell, they're probably smart enough not to say something as stupid as they were giving her the throne - it was well meant, but it did cause her problems. Of course, given that Elayne would have been kept on a short leash as an Accepted in the Tower if there was no schism, it shouldn't have been as much of a problem for her to go to Caemlyn and simply take the throne before things deteriorated to the point where she needed to take it by force. Unless her and Nynaeve never returned to the Tower in FoH, of course. But that means she would have to keep below the radar, because if she took the throne, the Tower would know exactly where she is, and would drag her off to complete her training as soon as she had the throne. Siuan, Leane and Logain would not have had the Salidar option for their retreat - if they escaped execaution in the Tower, I would say joining up with Rand directly would be their best course of action. If Siuan takes Moiraine's place, it means there is less need for Cadsuane, so that could have an effect on when she shows up and how she acts when she does. If Siuan had met up with Bryne, he would be another Great Captain in Rand's service.

 

Egwene might have stayed with the Wise Ones longer - it was Salidar that called her back. So she might end up becoming a Wise One rather than AS. If Nynaeve and Elayne decide to join up with Rand, then Moggy is probably interrogated by Wise Ones rather than kept as a servant by Nynaeve and Elayne. So the Tower might end up being rather delayed in gaining Traveling.

 

As for the WT itself, Elaida would still be just as poor a leader, still just as manipulated by the BA. Alviarin would probably still try to have the Ajahs at one another's throats, and therefore the efectiveness of the WT would be just as diminished. But I think the Seanchan disaster would have been much worse, with no Egwene to save their bacon. After the raid, if Elaida was gone their would be a power vacuum, and the Ajah heads would probably rise to fill it, probably installing a puppet Amyrlin. As there would be no BA hunt, no Great Purge, the BA would still be rife within the ranks of the AS on the eve of TG. However, some good might come out of all this: as Logain went to Rand first, he becomes the guy put in charge of the BT, so it is doubtful it becomes a Dreadlord training camp - Taim, when he showed up, would just not be able to move as openly.

 

Only thing about that is Logain was already gentled and if Nyn had gone to Rand instead of SAS it's possible that she wouldn't have Healed Logain's gentling before MT showed up. Everything else I agree with and I do think that she would have still Healed him eventually, I just doubt that it would have been before the start of LoC. So I think MT would still have become M'Hael.

 

Also, when it comes to the Seanchan I didn't mean they might suddenly take the accounts of the three girls more seriously, or believe Egwene's dreams. I meant that there'd have been a greater chance of the Tower having contact with an Aes Sedai who witnessed something of the Seanchan.

 

I doubt it since that we know of the only AS to escape the Seanchan were Teslyn, Joine, and Edasina (sp?). And none of those 3 were able to provide any knowledge prior to the attack on the WT. We have no evidence to suggest that any full AS escaped to bring information to the SAS, so if neither group (SAS or WT) got the info in the timeline we know, it seems unlikely that having the Tower whole would have gotten the info any earlier than those 3 returning.

[Darth Krewl]

See I have a lot more faith in Nynaeve than everyone else seems to. I don't think anything would stop her wanting to help Egwene and the three boys, even if she was brain washed day in day out, and they all grew Trolloc horns she'd still be there for them. After all, look at her in tEotW. First, she went to all the effort of following them; second she didn't turn back when she realised they'd be chased all the way by Trollocs and Fades, even though Lan told her she'd be safe to do so; third she travelled the Ways; fourth she went into the Blight. After risking her life for the Emmond's Fielders so often, I don't think she'd let a bunch of women she's never liked or admired change her.

 

Well, Nynaeve's stubborn as a mule heh heh...so I can definitely see this. I just think that she'd need to be free in order to do all the amazing feats that she's been able to accomplish, 'cause the timing had to be perfect. If Siuan hadn't been overthrown, then neither she nor Leanne would've been severed from the Source, but Logain, as someone has already noted, was. IMO, his role's too important and I don't think the sisters would've let Nynaeve heal him within the Tower. I don't think she'd let these women change her either, but I don't think she could've defied and even broken Tower Law within Tar Valon. Even she wouldn't have gone that far, I don't think.

 

Besides, Aes Sedai influence has touched her, even away from the Tower. She's turned in her good, stout Two Rivers wool for more elegant silk and linen, plus she has changed her attitude quite a bit, especially around Cadsuane, becoming more Aes Sedai-like. Though I can't stand her guts as a person, I admit that she's a helluva woman and one of the few characters in WoT perceived to be a hero, that is a real hero in my book. But she has become more Aes Sedai with time. So, maybe Tower influence wouldn't be the best thing for her.

 

Oh, I agree that in the long term it would make things incredibly unstable. But with the Last Battle on the horizon, we're not really talking long term. Elayne's battle for the throne just killed off loads of soldiers they could have used in the LB and generally weakened Andor. Of course, it may be worth that price IF she survives the LB and IF Andor survives. But those are quite optomistic assumptions to make, and there's still no certainty that people wouldn't take advantage of the chaos after the LB to rebel against Elayne, or maybe even another country might try to take Andor over. Whereas if Elayne had let the WT interfere, Andor would be stronger (if not very happy) to face the Last Battle, then it would probably have fallen apart after. Or not, because if Elayne did a good job of dealing with the LB, people would probably want to keep her on the throne. IF Andor survives at all. I guess really it's a question of whether you'd prefer the chaos to happen before Tarmon Gaidon, or after.

 

Actually, I couldn't agree with you more here.

 

That's why I said this before...

 

"Now, don't get me wrong, I think she made a mistake by refusing to take Rand up on his offer, given the state of affairs in her world at this point..."

 

Personally, I find it staggering to see that only a handful of rulers and leaders across the Randland seem mindful of the fact that the Last Battle's just around the corner. Elayne is clearly not one of them. All she's done since her return to Andor is plan for the future of her realm, when nobody knows for sure if there will be any kind of future for humankind in the Randland, after Tarmon Gai'don. IMO, Elayne, Egwene and many other leaders/rulers should be focusing their efforts on Tarmon Gai'don and not planning so far ahead into the future.

 

IMO, even if the Light wins, the upcoming conflict threatens to bring about another Breaking and that means the WoT world will never be the same and may even have to be rebuilt from scratch by the survivors. IMO, not too many are aware of this and I mean characters and fans alike. You'd be surprised to see how many people defend Elayne's decisions, which I find very questionable at this point.

 

So, I agree that she should've swallowed her pride and taken the throne, be it from Rand or the WT in your hypothetical scenario. Desperate times demand for desperate measures and I just can't understand how many people (fans and characters alike) seem to be forgetting this not so tiny and extremely important detail. I was just telling you my thoughts on Elayne taking the throne directly through Tar Valon, based on the character's nature, though I strongly disagree with her.

[mb]

If the White Tower remained whole, other events might have been either prevented or changed.

The possible outcomes from that might be found at various Portal Stone worlds.

[Feral]

If Siuan takes Moiraine's place, it means there is less need for Cadsuane, so that could have an effect on when she shows up and how she acts when she does.

 

Now this has got me wondering who would have been the better advisor for Rand - Caddy or Siuan? I'm inclined to think Siuan might have been better, just because she seems a bit more...human? Rand might have found her less frustrating, and a bit easier to relate to. Although the way Rand was back then, I'm not sure anyone could've helped him much.

[Darth Krewl]

Now this has got me wondering who would have been the better advisor for Rand - Caddy or Siuan? I'm inclined to think Siuan might have been better, just because she seems a bit more...human? Rand might have found her less frustrating, and a bit easier to relate to. Although the way Rand was back then, I'm not sure anyone could've helped him much.

 

IMO, neither. Siuan's role as a mentor was spent with Egwene. And that's her best role, because unlike Moiraine, who spent most of her time out in the world, Siuan's time as Amyrlin made her an expert on the history and dealings of the Tower, but she doesn't strike me as worldly as her former pillow pal.

 

As for Cadsuane, the woman has been as adventurous as Moiraine, but she has none of the qualities that make for a good mentor/teacher. She's too self-centered, arrogant, impatient and imposing. Nothing like the wizened old wizard that the archetype of the mentor's supposed to be (see Gandalf, Yoda, Dumbledore, et. al.)

 

So, all in all, I believe Rand's best mentor would have had to be an experienced male channeler, if only for what Moiraine told him about the differences between Saidin and Saidar. In this sense, Asmodean was useful, as well as Rand's own alter ego and former self. Too bad that his perception of LLT was affected by the taint.

[Mr Ares]

3. Elayne didn't accept the throne from Rand, because she wanted to earn it and not to be seen as a puppet handled by the Dragon Reborn. Therefore, I think it's safe to assume that she wouldn't have accepted it from Tar Valon either for fear of being seen as a puppet of the White Tower.

Yes, but unlike Rand the WT wouldn't take no for an answer. Elayne and the rest of Andor might not have liked it, but I'm inclined to think the WT would have gotten its way.

The AS are, unlike Rand, experienced politicians, and so if she simply put it to them that being seen as a WT puppet will harm the stability of her rule, then they might well accept it. Hell, they're probably smart enough not to say something as stupid as they were giving her the throne - it was well meant, but it did cause her problems. Of course, given that Elayne would have been kept on a short leash as an Accepted in the Tower if there was no schism, it shouldn't have been as much of a problem for her to go to Caemlyn and simply take the throne before things deteriorated to the point where she needed to take it by force. Unless her and Nynaeve never returned to the Tower in FoH, of course. But that means she would have to keep below the radar, because if she took the throne, the Tower would know exactly where she is, and would drag her off to complete her training as soon as she had the throne. Siuan, Leane and Logain would not have had the Salidar option for their retreat - if they escaped execaution in the Tower, I would say joining up with Rand directly would be their best course of action. If Siuan takes Moiraine's place, it means there is less need for Cadsuane, so that could have an effect on when she shows up and how she acts when she does. If Siuan had met up with Bryne, he would be another Great Captain in Rand's service.

 

Egwene might have stayed with the Wise Ones longer - it was Salidar that called her back. So she might end up becoming a Wise One rather than AS. If Nynaeve and Elayne decide to join up with Rand, then Moggy is probably interrogated by Wise Ones rather than kept as a servant by Nynaeve and Elayne. So the Tower might end up being rather delayed in gaining Traveling.

 

As for the WT itself, Elaida would still be just as poor a leader, still just as manipulated by the BA. Alviarin would probably still try to have the Ajahs at one another's throats, and therefore the efectiveness of the WT would be just as diminished. But I think the Seanchan disaster would have been much worse, with no Egwene to save their bacon. After the raid, if Elaida was gone their would be a power vacuum, and the Ajah heads would probably rise to fill it, probably installing a puppet Amyrlin. As there would be no BA hunt, no Great Purge, the BA would still be rife within the ranks of the AS on the eve of TG. However, some good might come out of all this: as Logain went to Rand first, he becomes the guy put in charge of the BT, so it is doubtful it becomes a Dreadlord training camp - Taim, when he showed up, would just not be able to move as openly.

 

Only thing about that is Logain was already gentled and if Nyn had gone to Rand instead of SAS it's possible that she wouldn't have Healed Logain's gentling before MT showed up. Everything else I agree with and I do think that she would have still Healed him eventually, I just doubt that it would have been before the start of LoC. So I think MT would still have become M'Hael.

That's a good point about timing, but there are various factors to be considered. For example, Logain has experience with male channelers, creating and running an army, and he was also a lord so probably has some experience of being charge, the administrative duties that would be required. We have seen that it is possible to learn weaves from descriptions - Egwene learnt how ot make Heartstone from a description, not by seeing the weave, and it is likely Moiraine learnt balefire in the same way - so while an inability to touch the Source would undoubtedly be a handicap, he would still have more experience than anyone else at the BT, and so would be a natural choice for a leader, at least until some Wilder with more experience shows up. The only thing he really couldn't do is the test, he would need Rand for the first few, and then would probably use the others to test further new arrivals. Taim essentially got the job because he was the only qualified person available. If Logain joined with Rand some time in FoH, he would have time to get on Rand's good side, and so could be put in charge and get things going before Taim ever arrived. He would lay the groundwork Taim would be building on, as oposed to Taim having a free hand. Taim would likely be the chief teacher from his arrival until Logain got Healed, and once that happened Logain would probably be largely undisputed in the top job. Logain as M'Hael is certainly not inconceivable.

 

If Siuan takes Moiraine's place, it means there is less need for Cadsuane, so that could have an effect on when she shows up and how she acts when she does.

 

Now this has got me wondering who would have been the better advisor for Rand - Caddy or Siuan? I'm inclined to think Siuan might have been better, just because she seems a bit more...human? Rand might have found her less frustrating, and a bit easier to relate to. Although the way Rand was back then, I'm not sure anyone could've helped him much.

Well, it could be that a more human advisor just wouldn't get through to him, and when Cadsuane showed up she'd criticise Siuan for her failures and take on the job anyway in the exact same way she did. If Siuan arrives before Moiraine's visit to Finnland, Moiraine could brief her on how best to handle him, and Siuan being an ex-AS, who has escaped execution at the WT might allay suspicions of her trying to catch him in AS plots. If she was open about wanting to use him to bring down Elaida, he might accept her advice - after all, he knows what she wants him to do, and can look at all the advice she gives him in that light. I think she could probably do quite well in the role. Cadsuane tailored her approach to Rand - she doesn't treat everyone in the same way, as we have seen - so a different situation (Rand already being effectively advised, and possibly not as crazy) might lead her to take a different tack with him. The two of them together might have been even better than either one alone. This thread does make for some interesting counterfactual scenarios.