Portal Stones

[dwn]

Yet if you interpret the 'servant' in Graendal's POV as other than Slayer, then his 'uniqueness' needs an explanation. Since we're shown an Asha'man--Androl--with an apparent Talent for gateways, a similar Talent for using portal stones is a likely possibility. Given that shadowspawn cannot be moved by gateway, a DF with such a talent would indeed be too valuable for Graendal to simply kill out of pique.

 

-- dwn

 

Can there be a Talent for using, what essentially is, a terangreal? The things were constructed by someone. I somehow doubt anyone can make them work better because of a Talent. Rand was a learning driver who had never driven a manual before and the guy who was bringing the Trollocs was an experienced racing driver.

 

We see a ter'angreal related Talent with Aviendha, so it's not a huge stretch. Also, the portal stones predate the AoL, so they may not be quite the same as other ter'angreal.

 

-- dwn

[Omega]

It isn't like Rand knew what he was doing, I liken it to clearing my driveway of snow in the winter. You can use a snow-blower (know what you are doing) or you can shovel it with superhuman strength (Rand using ginormous amounts of power to get the job done). Both get it done, one is much more efficient.

 

I'm not looking to get into the Slayer vs Unnamed Lacky fight. I agree with this though. I don't recall exactly how the stones came about, but I do believe people readily made use of them in the AOL. I would think that they don't take so much brute force power, as finesse to use them. It could simple be a case of putting too much effort into it on Rand's part when he had not even had any training on how to channel, going purely on instinct

[waffle]

Can there be a Talent for using, what essentially is, a terangreal? The things were constructed by someone. I somehow doubt anyone can make them work better because of a Talent. Rand was a learning driver who had never driven a manual before and the guy who was bringing the Trollocs was an experienced racing driver.

 

We see a ter'angreal related Talent with Aviendha, so it's not a huge stretch. Also, the portal stones predate the AoL, so they may not be quite the same as other ter'angreal.

 

-- dwn

 

Good point about Aviendha. It still seems sort of... right to me that it was Slayer. But if it does turn out that it wasn´t Slayer, i won´t fall out of my chair with shock now.

 

However. Why would someone who just brought in Trollocs give thought to who gets the blame. He did his job (granted, we´re dealing with the servants of the Shadow here and they are not the best bosses). Whereas Slayer botched it up pretty bad.

 

And Talents aren´t quite unique. Super-rare, yes, but not unique. Slayer is unique.

[dwn]

However. Why would someone who just brought in Trollocs give thought to who gets the blame. He did his job (granted, we´re dealing with the servants of the Shadow here and they are not the best bosses). Whereas Slayer botched it up pretty bad.

 

And Talents aren´t quite unique. Super-rare, yes, but not unique. Slayer is unique.

 

The scene is from Graendal's POV, and she's justifying his apparent insubordination. We don't know what he's thinking beyond a bit of smugness, and surprise that she's going forward with the trap.

 

Unique as in "we don't have anyone else with that ability at the moment." It may even be possible to duplicate Slayer under the right circumstances.

 

-- dwn

[AutomatedTeller]

I don't see any reason to think that the servant that Moridin loaned her is referring to anyone other than Slayer. I mean, it fits right in with the way that Jordan did stuff.

 

Sure, Moridin COULD have loaned her 2 unique servants (Slayer and some form of unique channeler with an attitude we havent' seen who might be to blame for the messup), but far more likely in my mind is that Slayer was loaned to her and he was just used to pass on an order to a channeler from some form of general pool of channelers, available to all Forsaken. Like a steno pool of Dreadlords (resume includes ability to Portal Stone 1000 trollocs a minute, graduated from The Black Tower 13x13 honors program)

 

The problem is that if the 'servant' in Graendal's POV is, in fact, Slayer, then that scene is written with completely unnecessary obfuscation of the servant's identity. Slayer could simply be named, as he is in the epilogue, without giving away any new information; we already know he and the dreamspike are part of Graendal's plot. So we must ask why the servant's identity is obscured. The obvious answer is to foreshadow--but not spoil--that Graendal has a male channeller involved in her shadowspawn ambush.

 

-- dwn

 

And being unnecessarily descriptive and obfuscatory isn't a hallmark of this series? I mean, earlier, Moridin says that he'll loan her the "man with two souls" (or something like that - I don't have the book in front of me). He could have said "I'll loan you Slayer, too", but he went with description. How necessary was that?

[dwn]

I don't see any reason to think that the servant that Moridin loaned her is referring to anyone other than Slayer. I mean, it fits right in with the way that Jordan did stuff.

 

Sure, Moridin COULD have loaned her 2 unique servants (Slayer and some form of unique channeler with an attitude we havent' seen who might be to blame for the messup), but far more likely in my mind is that Slayer was loaned to her and he was just used to pass on an order to a channeler from some form of general pool of channelers, available to all Forsaken. Like a steno pool of Dreadlords (resume includes ability to Portal Stone 1000 trollocs a minute, graduated from The Black Tower 13x13 honors program)

 

The problem is that if the 'servant' in Graendal's POV is, in fact, Slayer, then that scene is written with completely unnecessary obfuscation of the servant's identity. Slayer could simply be named, as he is in the epilogue, without giving away any new information; we already know he and the dreamspike are part of Graendal's plot. So we must ask why the servant's identity is obscured. The obvious answer is to foreshadow--but not spoil--that Graendal has a male channeller involved in her shadowspawn ambush.

 

-- dwn

 

And being unnecessarily descriptive and obfuscatory isn't a hallmark of this series? I mean, earlier, Moridin says that he'll loan her the "man with two souls" (or something like that - I don't have the book in front of me). He could have said "I'll loan you Slayer, too", but he went with description. How necessary was that?

 

Yet obfuscation must have a purpose. 'Slayer' is a name Perrin coined. The Forsaken know him by name (Luc/Isam) or the euphemism 'the man with two souls.' Either way, we, the readers, understood who Moridin was talking about.

 

A better example is the Watcher and the Wanderer characters from ACoS. There the identity of the man is kept secret to make us wonder who was spying on the Forsaken, and who would go out of his way to help Rand kill Sammael. It turned out to be Moridin in both cases, working to bring the other Chosen in line, but at the time it was an interesting mystery.

 

We knew Slayer was working for Graendal. Obscuring his identity in that scene doesn't serve any purpose.

 

-- dwn

[AutomatedTeller]

I think we are gonna have to disagree - i don't see any obfuscation - I see writing style.

[Byzantine279]

I see it as how she thinks of him. Graendal thinks herself so above Slayer that he does not deserve to be named, her cursing him at the end is simply her control slipping because she is scared and angry. Basically, you may refuse to acknowledge someone completely in normal circumstances but if you are highly emotional at that moment you aren't going to care that you are too far above them to call them by name.

[dwn]

I see it as how she thinks of him. Graendal thinks herself so above Slayer that he does not deserve to be named, her cursing him at the end is simply her control slipping because she is scared and angry. Basically, you may refuse to acknowledge someone completely in normal circumstances but if you are highly emotional at that moment you aren't going to care that you are too far above them to call them by name.

 

You could argue that if the contention was over something Graendal had said or thought. Indeed, she uses the more belittling "dog" when speaking to him. The key line ("The servant--one Moridin had loaned her") is neither spoken dialogue nor a direct thought as indicated by italics. It's only an indirect representation of Graendal's perception. As such, it's a peculiar phrasing to use if the man in question was merely Slayer.

 

Furthermore, why the qualification that he was on loan from Moridin? If the man was Slayer, we already know Moridin sent him. If he was otherwise inconsequential to the upcoming plot, why would it matter that Moridin sent him? The obvious answer is that the man is one of Moridin's channeller lackeys--the ones we've seen used off and on as messengers for a couple books--but the author wanted to obscure that fact. Revealing that Graendal was using male channellers in her plot would spoil the surprise of the ambush and downplay Perrin figuring it out.

 

-- dwn

[thestonerocket]

In the second last chapter Graendal is thinking of fleeing Shaidar Haran. She thinks to herself "...perhaps one of the mirror realms of the portal stones -- there his connections were not..." and is interrupted in her thought by the appearance of his gruesomeness himself.

 

I'm thinking the portal stones are coming back in a big way in AMoL...

[WhiskyJack]

aMOL is going to break many hearts;) Long time to wait for that heartbreak...

[Sharaman]

I see it as how she thinks of him. Graendal thinks herself so above Slayer that he does not deserve to be named, her cursing him at the end is simply her control slipping because she is scared and angry. Basically, you may refuse to acknowledge someone completely in normal circumstances but if you are highly emotional at that moment you aren't going to care that you are too far above them to call them by name.

 

You could argue that if the contention was over something Graendal had said or thought. Indeed, she uses the more belittling "dog" when speaking to him. The key line ("The servant--one Moridin had loaned her") is neither spoken dialogue nor a direct thought as indicated by italics. It's only an indirect representation of Graendal's perception. As such, it's a peculiar phrasing to use if the man in question was merely Slayer.

 

Furthermore, why the qualification that he was on loan from Moridin? If the man was Slayer, we already know Moridin sent him. If he was otherwise inconsequential to the upcoming plot, why would it matter that Moridin sent him? The obvious answer is that the man is one of Moridin's channeller lackeys--the ones we've seen used off and on as messengers for a couple books--but the author wanted to obscure that fact. Revealing that Graendal was using male channellers in her plot would spoil the surprise of the ambush and downplay Perrin figuring it out.

 

-- dwn

More than just the "unique" quote though there is another statement in that Graendal poV, which makes it clear that it is Slayer. She thinks he (the unique servant) knows that his failure had reflected upon her (landed on her shoulder or some such). Since she's not used a male channeler for anything - and Slayer has failed at guarding the DSpike, - it is Slayer who is being referred to.

[dwn]

I see it as how she thinks of him. Graendal thinks herself so above Slayer that he does not deserve to be named, her cursing him at the end is simply her control slipping because she is scared and angry. Basically, you may refuse to acknowledge someone completely in normal circumstances but if you are highly emotional at that moment you aren't going to care that you are too far above them to call them by name.

 

You could argue that if the contention was over something Graendal had said or thought. Indeed, she uses the more belittling "dog" when speaking to him. The key line ("The servant--one Moridin had loaned her") is neither spoken dialogue nor a direct thought as indicated by italics. It's only an indirect representation of Graendal's perception. As such, it's a peculiar phrasing to use if the man in question was merely Slayer.

 

Furthermore, why the qualification that he was on loan from Moridin? If the man was Slayer, we already know Moridin sent him. If he was otherwise inconsequential to the upcoming plot, why would it matter that Moridin sent him? The obvious answer is that the man is one of Moridin's channeller lackeys--the ones we've seen used off and on as messengers for a couple books--but the author wanted to obscure that fact. Revealing that Graendal was using male channellers in her plot would spoil the surprise of the ambush and downplay Perrin figuring it out.

 

-- dwn

More than just the "unique" quote though there is another statement in that Graendal poV, which makes it clear that it is Slayer. She thinks he (the unique servant) knows that his failure had reflected upon her (landed on her shoulder or some such). Since she's not used a male channeler for anything - and Slayer has failed at guarding the DSpike, - it is Slayer who is being referred to.

 

The failure quote:

 

He also seemed to know that his failure would fall upon her shoulders.

 

-- ToM, Wounds, p. 600

 

That line also makes sense within the context of the overall failure of the plot to kill Perrin. The guy feels confident, regardless of his involvement in the failing plot, because he knows Graendal will take the bulk of the blame. She's the one in charge.

 

-- dwn

[Duskfire]

In the second last chapter Graendal is thinking of fleeing Shaidar Haran. She thinks to herself "...perhaps one of the mirror realms of the portal stones -- there his connections were not..." and is interrupted in her thought by the appearance of his gruesomeness himself.

 

I'm thinking the portal stones are coming back in a big way in AMoL...

 

Ive thought that for awhile. Too much was dedicated to portal stones and mirror worlds in Book 2 for there not to be plot points about them when it matters.

[Durinax]

I think that its coming back in that theres a portal stone in caemlyn somewhere.

[waffle]

He also seemed to know that his failure would fall upon her shoulders.

 

-- ToM, Wounds, p. 600

 

That line also makes sense within the context of the overall failure of the plot to kill Perrin. The guy feels confident, regardless of his involvement in the failing plot, because he knows Graendal will take the bulk of the blame. She's the one in charge.

 

-- dwn

 

That line makes a whole lot more sense within the context of the servant being Slayer.

 

Because, you know, "his failure".

[Haran]

Dwn, that was Slayer. Why people intently ignore the obvious and go for something convoluted? Slayer is a nameless person as for as Graendal is concerned.

 

Yet she later refers to him by name.

 

That fool Isam, Graendal thought, stuffing the papers in her pack.

 

-- ToM, Epilogue, p. 829

 

The scene I quoted in my previous post is clearly Graendal giving orders to an Asha'man/dreadlord loaned to her.

 

-- dwn

 

No she is not. That was slayer. There is no such thing as "Talent" for getways or portal stone. Moridin only loaned her one servant and that was slayer. Ability to create power forged weapon is a talent. To create ter'angreal is a talent. <oving troops from one stone to another is not a talent.

 

Grendal never calls slayer "nameless" guy. She simply doesn't care calling servants by name.

 

Let me spell it out for you.

 

1) Graendal orders a male 'servant' on loan from Moridin--one that is apparently unique--to spring her shadowspawn trap.

2) A male channeller brings Graendal's trolloc army through a portal stone using a relatively small amount of power. This contradicts how difficult travel by portal stone has been shown previously.

3) We see from Graendal's POVs that Slayer is known to her by name, and by the euphemism 'The Man With Two Souls'.

4) We see Androl, a very weak Asha'man student who can still make large gateways. This is apparently an unusual Talent.

 

It follows that Graendal is giving orders to the Asha'man lackey who will be captaining her shadowspawn attack. This Asha'man's 'uniqueness' is likely some kind of Talent that lets him use portal stones with unusual adeptness and efficiency of power.

 

-- dwn

 

Just your thoughts, not "facts".

1) Unique servant? To do what? Move people around? That's unique now? Slayer very well can take the command and call on a channeler to do the job.

2) Relatively small? Or just not very strong? Is Rand some kind of benchmark? I am not sure where it was stated that portal stones are difficult thing to manage. Oh you mean Rand had tough time using them so it must be difficult!

3)So what? I didn't see in your quote Graendal calling that servant the "nameless one", did I?

4) No it's not. There are 5 items. Each channeler has control over 1, 2 or even 5 of them. Androl is good with Spirit. Still he cannot make gateways bigger than Rand and Rand is not "talented" as for as gateways are concerned. Androl's "talent" lies in extreme control (making gatways small enough to cut leather belt) and how big he can make those things.

 

 

So again, that servant was unique and hence his arrogance. There is no such talent as "super efficient" portal movement. Talent by nature is rare thing. Doing something better is not some "Talent" otherwise Rand is unbelievably talented even though he really cannot do anything especial.

 

I am out. Just believe whatever you wanna believe.

 

You started to debate my interpretation/theory so I'm naturally going to counter your arguments. No need to get snippy over it.

 

I never claimed Graendal called him the 'nameless one'. Her POV where she orders the attack refers to 'the servant', which would be strange for someone like Slayer whose name she knew. Since that we know she had a male channeller managing her shadowspawn, it follows that 'the servant' is that channeller.

 

According to Grady, the man jumping in with large numbers of shadowspawn isn't using much power. In TSR, Rand needed every scrap he could draw through an angreal to move a large group of people.

 

We've frequently seen Aes Sedai refer to Talents governing the effectiveness of weaves--Healing, Compulsion, Delving to name the most frequent--as well as any number of off-the-wall abilities. These Talents are not necessarily tied to a person's strength in the Power. Androl apparently has a Talent for gateways. I posit that Graendal's male channeller has a talent for using portal stones.

 

Since shadowspawn cannot travel through gateways, someone with an affinity for portal stones would be extremely valuable to the Shadow. An unusual Talent like that would arguably make someone 'unique' (Graendal's choice of word).

 

-- dwn

 

 

There are only two instances where portal stones are used that are of interest to us.

1) The first time Rand uses one he does it without knowing it. Thus it couldn’t have taken a lot of power.

2) The 4th time he uses the portal stone to travel to the waste. This time he uses alot of power but also carries more people and over great distance.

 

This leads me to believe that the power required must be based on two facts. Number of people travelling and destination. A parallel destination would be easier to travel to than another destination in the same world. Which leads me to believe that the trollocs used to ambush the whitecloaks were portalled in, not from a portalstone in the blight, but rather from a parallel portalstone.

[Durinax]

I thouht the first time it was Lanfear who ported him over along with a few friends to keep him from freaking out

[DavidSmith]

When rand used the portal stone the second time, didn't he bring them through thousands of worlds where he saw different versions of himself? you know flicker flicker type thing. That would account for him being drained.

[justincrb]

When rand used the portal stone the second time, didn't he bring them through thousands of worlds where he saw different versions of himself? you know flicker flicker type thing. That would account for him being drained.

 

There are four instances of Rand using the portal stones (if I remember correctly). I think you are referring to instance three. The first time he uses them is in TGH and leads him to the ghosted out world (unless Lanfear actually does it, which is very possible). The second is him returning from that world, which Lanfear insists on him doing himself, implying that she has a massive amount of faith in a reincarnated version of a guy with none of his former memories, or that portal stones are no big deal. They really might not be hard to operate. Hard to construct maybe, but simple to work. Like your computer. From a design standpoint it would make sense to make them as easy to operate as possible. Rand was still getting feverish when channeling so it's likely he was still in "channeling puberty", no where near his current strength , and no idea what he was doing. In TGH he couldn't even consciously tell different flows apart (by the next book all he could do is lightsaber and phaser: fire-sword and balefire).

 

The third time is when he teleports the bordlanders to Falme in TGH. That's when they experienced the multiple lifetimes, which helps to turn Ingar back to the Light. Rand still has no idea what he is doing.

 

The fourth time is when he transports the Aiel in TSR. He might have had some idea about the portal stones then, I don't remember the details. He's gotten exponentially more powerful during the series, so even at Book Four its hard to say how much power a portal stone needs, even if he did know what he was doing. In recent books he can now do unaided what he used to need Callandor (sp?) for. His recent outing in the boarderlands has him killing over one hundred thousand Trollocs with no aid at all. Consider TSR where he needs Callandor to clear out a few hundred Trollocs and thinking that Callandor makes him so powerful that he can bring people back to life.

[Duskfire]

For all we know there are ter`angreal that aid in using Portal Stones. Moridin has a whole stash of them - who knows what sort of unknown funky crap he is able to pull out of nowhere, and will no doubt do so.

[Random Man]

For all we know there are ter`angreal that aid in using Portal Stones. Moridin has a whole stash of them - who knows what sort of unknown funky crap he is able to pull out of nowhere, and will no doubt do so.

True, but one way or the other it was Graendal's lackey who was bringing in the trollocs. Would we have not seen him loan her another ter'angreal on-screen? We know Graendal's stash of objects were largely destroyed in Natin's Barrow.

 

I for one would certainly like to know how someone could bring in so many trollocs without using large amounts of Power. I suppose the simplest explanation is that there's a skill to using portal stones just like with any weave, and in the instances where Rand used them he was using sheer Power to compensate for lack of refinement or understanding how they worked.

 

If Dreadlords were capable of using the Portal Stones before the mass release of Forsaken -- for instance, if they were trained by Ishy in the Blight or some such -- it makes me wonder why they ever bothered with the Ways in tEotW. Using the Ways would make sense if you don't have a Dreadlord handy, but it's obvious Ishy really wanted the three boys captured in tEotW, if he had portal stone access why wouldn't he have thrown everything he had at them?

[Mulk]

Most obvious possibility is that there is no Portal Stone in the old Manetheren vicinity, but there WAS a waygate. I don't know that for certain (I can't recall Portal Stones ever having been mentioned in that area), but the closest I can recall that we know of for sure is on Toman Head, which is a long ways in the wrong direction. I suppose, given what we saw in the most recent book, that portal stone might be closer, but then you'd have a large force of trollocs in the middle of Ghealdan, a long way away from the Two Rivers, and where anyone with half a brain could see and report their presence.

 

To sum up, I think the whole thing with using the ways was it was the fastest, most efficient way (losses notwithstanding) to move a decent number of trollocs to the west of Andor without warning cry or uproar. Nearest portal stones we have record of are too far away to avoid notice. That's my theory. :)

[Durinax]

Most obvious possibility is that there is no Portal Stone in the old Manetheren vicinity, but there WAS a waygate. I don't know that for certain (I can't recall Portal Stones ever having been mentioned in that area), but the closest I can recall that we know of for sure is on Toman Head, which is a long ways in the wrong direction. I suppose, given what we saw in the most recent book, that portal stone might be closer, but then you'd have a large force of trollocs in the middle of Ghealdan, a long way away from the Two Rivers, and where anyone with half a brain could see and report their presence.

 

To sum up, I think the whole thing with using the ways was it was the fastest, most efficient way (losses notwithstanding) to move a decent number of trollocs to the west of Andor without warning cry or uproar. Nearest portal stones we have record of are too far away to avoid notice. That's my theory. :)

plus you wouldnt have to move across open water if you used the portal stone

[Agelmar]

His recent outing in the boarderlands has him killing over one hundred thousand Trollocs with no aid at all. Consider TSR where he needs Callandor to clear out a few hundred Trollocs and thinking that Callandor makes him so powerful that he can bring people back to life.

 

Rand appeared to be at full strength in the latter books--e.g., able to stand toe-to-toe with members of the Forsaken. What he was able to do in Maradon showed he has some newfound strength which I think demands explanation in A Memory of Light.

 

What he did in The Dragon Reborn was much more than simply clearing how a few hundred Trollocs. He created a weave that hunted down every Shadowspawn in a huge fortress while leaving all humans unharmed. It may still be the single coolest thing done with the power in the entire series.