Cuendillar Item

[Finnssss22]

I think the post about there not really being a big up side to it over good steel is right.

Anything strong enough to go through a metal shield would most definitely be enough force to push/throw back anyone trying to use one of cuendillar.

 

Also how would having a shield or armor of cuendillar actually help you that much vs a channeler? So what if it deflects one power blasts, what is going to stop them from simply crushing you in that armor or grabbing your shield from you with weaves of air and bash you in the head with it heh and it certainly won't stop them from blasting the ground under you.

Just like Mat's medallion, it might protect him from weaves that touch him but won't help much if they throw a whole wall at him.

 

Should also be noted that it has been confirmed that the True Power can destroy cuendillar and that is one of TWO ways to do it. We simply don't know what the other is yet according to BS.

[mb]

About the Oaths, making armor/shield out of cuendillar (or out of any solid material) would not violate any of them.

[Tollieman]

I struggle to understand how some people cannot see the benefit to virtually unbreakeable armour.

 

Frodo could be killed by fire, lightning, falling off a cliff, being stabbed in the neck, shot in the head with an arrow. He could have caught a cold and died of pneumonia dammit!

However, the mithril coat seemed to help on the one occasion all other mundane defences had failed. Without that, his story ended there.

 

Superlight, thin cuendillar armour for the dragon reborn seems like a no-brainer to me. Fine, it's not in the book for whatever reason, but to try justify it being of no or little benefit seems crazy. Who wants to rely on luck when it involves the only hope of survival's survival (beside's Mat's Spare Hat )?

 

I'm beating a dead horse now...

[Mats Spare Hat]

I struggle to understand how some people cannot see the benefit to virtually unbreakeable armour.

 

Frodo could be killed by fire, lightning, falling off a cliff, being stabbed in the neck, shot in the head with an arrow. He could have caught a cold and died of pneumonia dammit!

However, the mithril coat seemed to help on the one occasion all other mundane defences had failed. Without that, his story ended there.

 

Superlight, thin cuendillar armour for the dragon reborn seems like a no-brainer to me. Fine, it's not in the book for whatever reason, but to try justify it being of no or little benefit seems crazy. Who wants to rely on luck when it involves the only hope of survival's survival (beside's Mat's Spare Hat )?

 

I'm beating a dead horse now...

 

From a literary standpoint, I think it's the issue of de-humanizing a character even more, by adding unbreakable armor. For somebody who already is the most powerful twister of fate in the world,has super powers, a big entourage, a crazy crystal sword that also amplifies his powers, commands nations and armies, and now had an epiphany granting him what seems like all the knowledge off the greatest figure in an age of legends - there's only so much you can keep stacking on top of that before readers develop chronic eye-roll syndrome.

 

To me, that's why you don't see something like it, cuendillar armor. That and I think it's a lame concept in this circumstance, but that's me.

 

You should stop using a LoTR Frodo parallel in your argument as well. Frodo had neither super-powers, the goodie bag(so to speak), nor was a prophesied figure who could twist fate to his will - and exists in a completely different literary world. When you say trusting 'luck', in Rand's case, whether you're trying to or not, you're debasing everything we know about ta'varen and the will of the pattern in keeping Rand alive to reach his end.

 

So again, Rand's 'luck' is where you can find my pile of chips. I would wager that luck, vs. your cuendillar armor EVERY time.

[mb]

There is a difference between mithril and cuendillar. Mithril is flexible; cuendillar is not.

[randsc]

There is a difference between mithril and cuendillar. Mithril is flexible; cuendillar is not.

 

Mithril is not flexible. Mithril is formed into chainmail which is flexible.

 

There is no need, none whatsoever, that the material armor is made from be flexible. None.

 

The city where I work has a museum housing one of the world's great collections of arnor. I promise you, the individual pieces from which armor is made are not remotely flexible.

[mb]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

[randsc]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

 

 

Of course it could be taken off.

 

Chainmail is just that, links of inflexible material formed together like chains. How flexible or inflexible the individual rings are is irrelevent.

 

Plate is individual pieces that are rivited or buckled together with leather straps. Again, the individual pieces are quite inflexible. But that absolutely does not mean it cannot be taken off.

 

Where are you getting this?

[Finnssss22]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

 

 

Of course it could be taken off.

 

Chainmail is just that, links of inflexible material formed together like chains. How flexible or inflexible the individual rings are is irrelevent.

 

Plate is individual pieces that are rivited or buckled together with leather straps. Again, the individual pieces are quite inflexible. But that absolutely does not mean it cannot be taken off.

 

Where are you getting this?

 

 

I believe his point is that turning a suit of chainmail into cuendillar would fuse the links together just like the big chain in TV's harbor.

Making plates for Platemail would be the better way to go but we also don't know what the weight difference would be.

[Tollieman]

So again, Rand's 'luck' is where you can find my pile of chips. I would wager that luck, vs. your cuendillar armor EVERY time.

 

Well, good for you. I'll pile my pile of chips where Rand has his luck AND armour

Of course, that's not what the author(s) wanted, so yeah. Does it make sense NOT to give him such, of course not.

 

mb just doesn't get it And what is 'weight' to cuendillar armour. Make it extremely thin, because all you need it for is to protect against mundane attack. Making it thick is unnecessary.

 

Sorry, I thought I saw the dead horse move

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

Really sorry about the long post. But juts addressing things here I think people haven't yet answered. Sorry.

 

 

You are just making that cuendillar stuff up. I doubt that they would have sealed the DO's prison with something that is susceptible to simple counter measures.

 

If it's the best they have, Yes they would.

 

But, what would happen if a gateway were to happen over/next to a Cuendillar piece? would it not be able to open, or would there be a random non-gateway part in the gateway, causing anyone entering from the other side to have a piece of themselves missing when they enter?

 

It would not be able to open. Because the entire weaves structure would be suspect. The physics of the structure holds it together. It would overbalance and begin to collapse. Depending on exactly how it works more of the weave would fall into the cue until the whole thing dissapates, explodes or whatever. Or it would happen as soon as the structure starts collapsing.

 

Hmm, since all force directed against cuendillar is absorbed, would that mean a dropped heartstone item wouldn't bounce? Meaning a fall that would otherwise kill you could be made without injury if wearing cuendillar boots?

 

Technically it would never move if all force was absorbed. It pretty muhc has infinite inertia according to the definition of 'absorbing all force.'

 

That would depend, if Cuen can entirely absorb any force directed against it then there would be no force passed through it into your legs and body. The shock would hit the Cuen boots and be absorbed instead of transmitted and your legs would one minute be falling and the next standing with no sensation of impact at all.

 

I'm fairly sure someone addressed this but I'll just to make sure. Inertia would still get you. The sudden stop would put alot of force on you and you would die, Like jumping off the golden gate bridge and hitting tense water would be like hitting concrete.

 

so I'm inclined to go with the thought that it fails to absorb at all rather than that it absorbs completely. Either way your legs would be fine since the cuen would either absorb all the impact force and have none to pass to your legs or absorb none of the force and still have none to pass to your legs.

 

How would it stop the energy in the second example? Energy doesn't just disappear. It would just ignore the armour as if it didn't exist and hit the person full force. I'm fairly sure. Where else would the energy go?

 

Time - Well, since we don't see everything happnening in the tower, Egwene may have a little squad of AS making some important stuff. If I was Egwene, I'd already have commissioned a set of armour for Rand , Mat and Perrin (and transformed it myself) by now. Why not try protect the only hope for mankind from mundane attack. Maybe she's thought of it, and will offer it to them sometime, but I HIGHLY doubt it.

 

The reason it doesn't happen, is because they haven't thought about it, they're just too selfish to do it, or the oath (which is ridiculous, because they're making PROTECTION, not a weapon).

 

Time. Takes too long to do it with such finesse that it would succeed

They haven't thought about it

They just plain don't have the skill. I'm fairly sure that since only more basic things can be done by very few AS plate armour would be harder. Not very solid but still throwing it out there. Also include the increased length of time doing it that any slip ups will destroy the work.

Combined with the above two, relative skill and time. Maybe those few who can have more important things to do eg Egwene who has to Amylrin. (Can't remember the spelling.)

And yeah Oath.

 

Disagree about selfishness as they'd do it to protect themselves at least. Maybe laziness.

 

If you really wanted to make a smart point, someone would mention that Ashaman are much more proficient/gifted in earth weaves, so it stands to reason they would be better/quicker at making Cuendillar, plus not bound by oaths and are much more militaristic in nature. I still think people underestimate the amount of time it would take to make a significant portion of cuendillar armor.

 

Differene between ability and skill. Tis what the RP system here works on. Just because they are more gifted having more power with a weave does not trnaslate into the finesse to do many complicated weaves. Especially since the Ashaman have only been around a few years. Maybe they haven't had the time to develop it yet in combination with Time/Better things to do? Yup it mightn't hold up the best but just putting it out there.

 

But heres the big issue of applying real physics. if it absorbs everything I don't think Cue can ever move. AM I right??? 'Every body remains in a state of rest unless it is acted upon by an external unbalanced force.'

 

It's obviously just only absorbs some things and not others. Not all Nit Picky I know but that's what alot of this is based on

[GaseousAnomaly]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

 

 

Of course it could be taken off.

 

Chainmail is just that, links of inflexible material formed together like chains. How flexible or inflexible the individual rings are is irrelevent.

 

Plate is individual pieces that are rivited or buckled together with leather straps. Again, the individual pieces are quite inflexible. But that absolutely does not mean it cannot be taken off.

 

Where are you getting this?

 

 

I believe his point is that turning a suit of chainmail into cuendillar would fuse the links together just like the big chain in TV's harbor.

Making plates for Platemail would be the better way to go but we also don't know what the weight difference would be.

 

 

I gather you could make the metal quite thiner right? The individual plates would basically have to barely stand on their own before being turned in to cuendillar. And the plates dont have to be big. You could have a leather armor on witch you strap small cuendillar plates in an overlapping pattern. kind of like this.

This way your core is protected from armor piercing arrows, swords and spears while you still have the mobility of a light armor.

 

You could make great helmets and bracers pretty easily too.

[GaseousAnomaly]

Now for the real reason I visited this thread. What happens when a cuendillar item meets a gateway?

[randsc]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

 

 

Of course it could be taken off.

 

Chainmail is just that, links of inflexible material formed together like chains. How flexible or inflexible the individual rings are is irrelevent.

 

Plate is individual pieces that are rivited or buckled together with leather straps. Again, the individual pieces are quite inflexible. But that absolutely does not mean it cannot be taken off.

 

Where are you getting this?

 

 

I believe his point is that turning a suit of chainmail into cuendillar would fuse the links together just like the big chain in TV's harbor.

Making plates for Platemail would be the better way to go but we also don't know what the weight difference would be.

 

That's probably true if they were to take an existing suit of chainmail and turn it into cuendillar, like they turned an existing chain to cuendillar at TV. Because the links are in contact with one another.

 

But we were discussing MAKING a suit of armor. Make link of steel, turn to cuedillar. Make another link, through the first, turn to cuendillar. Repeat.

 

And the original object needn't be steel, right? It might very well turn out to be faster to make cuendillar armor, if the links could be made of thin copper wire, or the plates of wood, or mold-cast porcelain.

[mb]

Yes, the pieces fusing together was what I was talking about.

Turning each part to cuendillar before adding a new part; I imagine that would still apply.

 

Some degree of non-cuendillar parts may be required regardless of the form of armor.

[Finnssss22]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

 

 

Of course it could be taken off.

 

Chainmail is just that, links of inflexible material formed together like chains. How flexible or inflexible the individual rings are is irrelevent.

 

Plate is individual pieces that are rivited or buckled together with leather straps. Again, the individual pieces are quite inflexible. But that absolutely does not mean it cannot be taken off.

 

Where are you getting this?

 

 

I believe his point is that turning a suit of chainmail into cuendillar would fuse the links together just like the big chain in TV's harbor.

Making plates for Platemail would be the better way to go but we also don't know what the weight difference would be.

 

That's probably true if they were to take an existing suit of chainmail and turn it into cuendillar, like they turned an existing chain to cuendillar at TV. Because the links are in contact with one another.

 

But we were discussing MAKING a suit of armor. Make link of steel, turn to cuedillar. Make another link, through the first, turn to cuendillar. Repeat.

 

And the original object needn't be steel, right? It might very well turn out to be faster to make cuendillar armor, if the links could be made of thin copper wire, or the plates of wood, or mold-cast porcelain.

 

 

You couldn't make chainmail of cuendillar period.

Chainmail requires the links to be looped through each other and then closed up. Obviously you wouldn't be able to close a link of cuendillar.

It would have to be a scalemail or platemail with the mail still made of steel but the attached plates or scales made of cuendillar. Or a suit of full plate itself.

We still don't know what the weight ratio is either. For all we know the change to cuendillar may increase the weight by double, triple or even more. I doubt it's an outrageous amount as obviously the pieces made in the rebel camp were still able to be lifted easily but we simply don't know.

[Evoke]

Yes, the pieces fusing together was what I was talking about.

Turning each part to cuendillar before adding a new part; I imagine that would still apply.

 

Some degree of non-cuendillar parts may be required regardless of the form of armor.

 

Turning each successive link into cuendillar will keep them from fusing. It's only when you attempt to turn several touching pieces into cuendillar that they fuse into one.

 

A lot of forms - both as a sword wielder and with other weapons - are dedicated to exploiting the gaps in conventional armor. Going for the gaps in the armor. The problem with conventional armor is the weight, which can be minimalized using cuendillar. Shaping the armor into pieces so thin they would buckle under the slightest pressure wouldn't be a problem if the work of shaping them was handed over to Power wielders rather than blacksmiths. In theory, you could create a full suit of plate armor that weighs less than a pound.

[randsc]

Ok. This then is the difference:: Mithril can be taken off after it is put on; cuendillar could not be.

 

 

Of course it could be taken off.

 

Chainmail is just that, links of inflexible material formed together like chains. How flexible or inflexible the individual rings are is irrelevent.

 

Plate is individual pieces that are rivited or buckled together with leather straps. Again, the individual pieces are quite inflexible. But that absolutely does not mean it cannot be taken off.

 

Where are you getting this?

 

 

I believe his point is that turning a suit of chainmail into cuendillar would fuse the links together just like the big chain in TV's harbor.

Making plates for Platemail would be the better way to go but we also don't know what the weight difference would be.

 

That's probably true if they were to take an existing suit of chainmail and turn it into cuendillar, like they turned an existing chain to cuendillar at TV. Because the links are in contact with one another.

 

But we were discussing MAKING a suit of armor. Make link of steel, turn to cuedillar. Make another link, through the first, turn to cuendillar. Repeat.

 

And the original object needn't be steel, right? It might very well turn out to be faster to make cuendillar armor, if the links could be made of thin copper wire, or the plates of wood, or mold-cast porcelain.

 

 

You couldn't make chainmail of cuendillar period.

Chainmail requires the links to be looped through each other and then closed up. Obviously you wouldn't be able to close a link of cuendillar.

It would have to be a scalemail or platemail with the mail still made of steel but the attached plates or scales made of cuendillar. Or a suit of full plate itself.

We still don't know what the weight ratio is either. For all we know the change to cuendillar may increase the weight by double, triple or even more. I doubt it's an outrageous amount as obviously the pieces made in the rebel camp were still able to be lifted easily but we simply don't know.

 

Ridiculous. This really isn't hard.

 

You make a ring, a complete circle, of whatever material. You turn it to cuendillar. You make another ring of the malleable material, thread it through first ring, hammer it closed, convert it to cuendillar. You now have two, separate and freely moving interlocked rings. See?

 

Now, you repeat the process several thousand times, and you end up with cuendillar chainmail.

 

Now, your weight issue. I would submit that we know that cuendillar is not especially heavy. The characters who have held the seals, or for that matter any of the other pieces of cuendillar, have never remarked on its exceptional weight. The seals look like pottery, and have a weight that the characters do not find remarkable for pottery. When did Jordan ever fail to take advantage of an opportunity to describe an object in loving detail? If it were especially heavy, he would have said so.

 

Also, as Evoke and others have noted, you could make armor, including chainmail rings, of a much lighter gauge material. As far as we know, there is no reason you couldn't make the pieces out of paper, or parchment.

 

There is simply no reason that there is no cuendillar armor in this story, except that there is no cuendillar armor in this story.

[Byzantine279]

Except that second ring would fuse to the first, Rand.

 

And as to a gateway: A gateway that transects a piece of cuendillar will be moved to the side, similar to how a gateway will move if you try to make two to the exact same location. (basically the pattern appears to have a paradox detector and auto moves gateways to prevent them).

[randsc]

Except that second ring would fuse to the first, Rand.

 

And as to a gateway: A gateway that transects a piece of cuendillar will be moved to the side, similar to how a gateway will move if you try to make two to the exact same location. (basically the pattern appears to have a paradox detector and auto moves gateways to prevent them).

 

We have absolutely no reason to believe that is true, if the rings weren't in contact. None.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Also, as Evoke and others have noted, you could make armor, including chainmail rings, of a much lighter gauge material. As far as we know, there is no reason you couldn't make the pieces out of paper, or parchment.

 

 

Actually RJ stated in a Q&A that "iron is the base of cuendillar".

 

You are also right as he stated that making Cuendillar chainmail is theoretically possible but he also left the impression of why would you want to waste that much time doing it.

This is further emphasized when he answers how someone could go about adding links to the Cuendillar chain in the TV harbor.

He says the new non-Cuendillar link could not be touching the old Cuendillar link or it would fuse to it upon being changed.

 

I think if you get off the chainmail kick and focus more towards the much more feasible and much, much less time constraining platemail, scalemail, full plate suit or shield themes, you would garner more support.

 

I understand your thinking of it being better protection for soldiers, I just hope you understand if you're thinking of it helping vs channelers, you're sadly mistaken.

[GaseousAnomaly]

Except that second ring would fuse to the first, Rand.

 

And as to a gateway: A gateway that transects a piece of cuendillar will be moved to the side, similar to how a gateway will move if you try to make two to the exact same location. (basically the pattern appears to have a paradox detector and auto moves gateways to prevent them).

 

We have absolutely no reason to believe that is true, if the rings weren't in contact. None.

I dont know if you've ever made a small piece of chainmail but rings not touching is virtually impossible.

[Finnssss22]

Except that second ring would fuse to the first, Rand.

 

And as to a gateway: A gateway that transects a piece of cuendillar will be moved to the side, similar to how a gateway will move if you try to make two to the exact same location. (basically the pattern appears to have a paradox detector and auto moves gateways to prevent them).

 

We have absolutely no reason to believe that is true, if the rings weren't in contact. None.

I dont know if you've ever made a small piece of chainmail but rings not touching is virtually impossible.

 

Yeah, I don't think he understands that each link of chainmail threads through 4 other links, not just one or two others.

 

[randsc]

Except that second ring would fuse to the first, Rand.

 

And as to a gateway: A gateway that transects a piece of cuendillar will be moved to the side, similar to how a gateway will move if you try to make two to the exact same location. (basically the pattern appears to have a paradox detector and auto moves gateways to prevent them).

 

We have absolutely no reason to believe that is true, if the rings weren't in contact. None.

I dont know if you've ever made a small piece of chainmail but rings not touching is virtually impossible.

 

Yeah, I don't think he understands that each link of chainmail threads through 4 other links, not just one or two others.

 

 

I very much understand. I also understand that the pieces need not be hot from the forge, and could be held between the fingers to keep them from touching. The later links would be a little harder to keep apart, but certainly possible. Chainmail is put together one ring at a time.

[randsc]

 

 

Also, as Evoke and others have noted, you could make armor, including chainmail rings, of a much lighter gauge material. As far as we know, there is no reason you couldn't make the pieces out of paper, or parchment.

 

 

Actually RJ stated in a Q&A that "iron is the base of cuendillar".

 

You are also right as he stated that making Cuendillar chainmail is theoretically possible but he also left the impression of why would you want to waste that much time doing it.

This is further emphasized when he answers how someone could go about adding links to the Cuendillar chain in the TV harbor.

He says the new non-Cuendillar link could not be touching the old Cuendillar link or it would fuse to it upon being changed.

 

I think if you get off the chainmail kick and focus more towards the much more feasible and much, much less time constraining platemail, scalemail, full plate suit or shield themes, you would garner more support.

 

I understand your thinking of it being better protection for soldiers, I just hope you understand if you're thinking of it helping vs channelers, you're sadly mistaken.

 

So, we have the author explicitly stating that cuendillar chainmail is possible? It's not quite Word of God by my definition (which holds the Word of God is what he puts down on the page, not what he says while selling the book) but it should be close enough.

 

I believe the premise of this from the beginning was, "Why wouldn't you want protection from stray arrows, etc.?" Preparing for a battle that will involve magic is no reason to neglect the more mundane threats.

 

As for the chainmail vs. plate issue, I would actually lean toward plate. The chainmail discussion just grew out of the need to explain to certain posters that it was possible. As I said early on, the constraints to doing this include time, but not inflexibility.