Military Roundup

[bysomy]

The Shaido were defeated because the Asha'man formed a line and killed them by implodeing their heads and ripping the ground up. The kill rate would be about 200-300p/s. The Shaido also retreated after a few minutes of this.

[smileyman]

The Shaido were defeated because the Asha'man formed a line and killed them by implodeing their heads and ripping the ground up. The kill rate would be about 200-300p/s. The Shaido also retreated after a few minutes of this.

 

I know the scene. It's still not realistic because the Shaido also had 200 Wise Ones who could do their own channeling. There was a massive battle going on before the Asha'men went all berserker on the Shaido. That didn't happen until after Perrin met up with Rand and Min. I did my math wrong (read it as 600 Aiel instead of 6,000), but that still means the RPG is claiming that 40,000 Shaido and 200 Wise Ones were beaten off by less than 7,000 men and 200 Asha'men.

 

I'd give a bit of an edge in combat to the Asha'men, but the 200 Wise Ones aren't going to be walk overs either. Based on the incorrect information given by the RPG in it's section on the defense of the Two Rivers I'd have to call this information highly suspect too.

[gary0044187]

 

 

Those Dumai Well numbers are ridiculous. They're trying to say that 1300 men beat off 40,000 Shaido? Yeah the good guys had 200 Asha'men, but if there were 200 Wise Ones they should mostly balance each other out. 40,000 Shaido would've overrun that army in minutes.

yes, they are saying that 1300 beat 40k (I find some of the numbers doubtful but I do not see any reason to disbelieve the most basic concepts in this conversation). On top of what el mandarb said, I will add this: There is a difference between wise ones at this point of the story and asha'man. Hell, the Aes Sedai that were surrounded by the Shaido force were as effective or more effective than the 200 wise ones. The wise ones commented before the fight that fighting with the power was new to them. So 30ish AS took on 200 wise ones and accounting for themselves pretty well. Next, 200 Asha'man show up and WTFpwn the Aiel. Why? because unlike wise ones, they had been taught how to use the OP to kill, they were even more effective than the AS because they had no restrictions and whereas AS only spend a portion of the time learning how to fight, that is all Asha'man learn to do. Expect the Asha'man to pretty much accomplish the same thing against any force with poorly trained one power users and most likely any force backed up by Aes Sedai, because they have nothing holding them back from absolutely curbstomping anyone. Once the ability of the enemy power users was stymied, the Asha'man had their way with the Aiel infantry, and at that point, as Rand has shown us 2-3 times now, there is no upward limit on the number of infantry that can be killed through use of the power so quantity of foot troops really becomes inconsequential.

[smileyman]

 

 

Those Dumai Well numbers are ridiculous. They're trying to say that 1300 men beat off 40,000 Shaido? Yeah the good guys had 200 Asha'men, but if there were 200 Wise Ones they should mostly balance each other out. 40,000 Shaido would've overrun that army in minutes.

yes, they are saying that 1300 beat 40k (I find some of the numbers doubtful but I do not see any reason to disbelieve the most basic concepts in this conversation). On top of what el mandarb said, I will add this: There is a difference between wise ones at this point of the story and asha'man. Hell, the Aes Sedai that were surrounded by the Shaido force were as effective or more effective than the 200 wise ones. The wise ones commented before the fight that fighting with the power was new to them. So 30ish AS took on 200 wise ones and accounting for themselves pretty well. Next, 200 Asha'man show up and WTFpwn the Aiel. Why? because unlike wise ones, they had been taught how to use the OP to kill, they were even more effective than the AS because they had no restrictions and whereas AS only spend a portion of the time learning how to fight, that is all Asha'man learn to do. Expect the Asha'man to pretty much accomplish the same thing against any force with poorly trained one power users and most likely any force backed up by Aes Sedai, because they have nothing holding them back from absolutely curbstomping anyone. Once the ability of the enemy power users was stymied, the Asha'man had their way with the Aiel infantry, and at that point, as Rand has shown us 2-3 times now, there is no upward limit on the number of infantry that can be killed through use of the power so quantity of foot troops really becomes inconsequential.

 

I'm going to address this once more and then give up. There is no way in hell that a force that's outnumbered 8 to 1 can win in the manner described.

 

Here are some real life examples of battles fought with overwhelming strength by one side.

 

In the Zulu war, the initial battle was fought by a force of 4100 British and auxilary troops (1600 British, 2500 African troops). They faced a force 20,000 strong. That's only 5-1 odds. The British had much superior technology (equate that with the Asha'men if you will). The result? Complete and utter annihilation. Not a single survivor.

 

We all know about the Battle of Little Big Horn. Custer was outnumbered there at anywhere from a 3-1 to 7-1 odds (historians disagree on the exact number), and he was completely wiped out. Another example of a force with superior technology engaging a force with overwhelming numbers.

 

I could go on about this to endless length, but the numbers are quite frankly ridiculous. Since the RPG is not canon, it has not been verified accurate by Team Jordan, and I've already found major mistakes in it with regards to the defense of Edmond's Field, I think we can safely put aside the supposed numbers at Dumai Wells.

 

As much as we'd like to believe in technology, overwhelming numbers usually wins out against a small force with better technology. I could believe a 2-1 or 3-1 size difference, but not an 8-1 size difference.

[decrepid dragon]

 

 

Those Dumai Well numbers are ridiculous. They're trying to say that 1300 men beat off 40,000 Shaido? Yeah the good guys had 200 Asha'men, but if there were 200 Wise Ones they should mostly balance each other out. 40,000 Shaido would've overrun that army in minutes.

yes, they are saying that 1300 beat 40k (I find some of the numbers doubtful but I do not see any reason to disbelieve the most basic concepts in this conversation). On top of what el mandarb said, I will add this: There is a difference between wise ones at this point of the story and asha'man. Hell, the Aes Sedai that were surrounded by the Shaido force were as effective or more effective than the 200 wise ones. The wise ones commented before the fight that fighting with the power was new to them. So 30ish AS took on 200 wise ones and accounting for themselves pretty well. Next, 200 Asha'man show up and WTFpwn the Aiel. Why? because unlike wise ones, they had been taught how to use the OP to kill, they were even more effective than the AS because they had no restrictions and whereas AS only spend a portion of the time learning how to fight, that is all Asha'man learn to do. Expect the Asha'man to pretty much accomplish the same thing against any force with poorly trained one power users and most likely any force backed up by Aes Sedai, because they have nothing holding them back from absolutely curbstomping anyone. Once the ability of the enemy power users was stymied, the Asha'man had their way with the Aiel infantry, and at that point, as Rand has shown us 2-3 times now, there is no upward limit on the number of infantry that can be killed through use of the power so quantity of foot troops really becomes inconsequential.

 

I'm going to address this once more and then give up. There is no way in hell that a force that's outnumbered 8 to 1 can win in the manner described.

 

Here are some real life examples of battles fought with overwhelming strength by one side.

 

In the Zulu war, the initial battle was fought by a force of 4100 British and auxilary troops (1600 British, 2500 African troops). They faced a force 20,000 strong. That's only 5-1 odds. The British had much superior technology (equate that with the Asha'men if you will). The result? Complete and utter annihilation. Not a single survivor.

 

We all know about the Battle of Little Big Horn. Custer was outnumbered there at anywhere from a 3-1 to 7-1 odds (historians disagree on the exact number), and he was completely wiped out. Another example of a force with superior technology engaging a force with overwhelming numbers.

 

I could go on about this to endless length, but the numbers are quite frankly ridiculous. Since the RPG is not canon, it has not been verified accurate by Team Jordan, and I've already found major mistakes in it with regards to the defense of Edmond's Field, I think we can safely put aside the supposed numbers at Dumai Wells.

 

As much as we'd like to believe in technology, overwhelming numbers usually wins out against a small force with better technology. I could believe a 2-1 or 3-1 size difference, but not an 8-1 size difference.

 

The thing is that while it hasn't been emphasised in the later books your average ashaman is 3 or 4 times stronger in the OP than your average AS. Remember how hard it was for AS to capture all those channeling false dragons? Sometimes all 6 of the AS sent died, as happened with one of the false dragons in the begining of the series, and although it could be argued only strong channelers with the spark started channeling like this the WT still would have sent some of its stronger sisters, and they would have been fully trained and given advice based on previous encounters while the false dragons were self taught. So factoring in these generally weaker ashaman that is still 3 to 4 times the amount of weaves they can use before becoming tired, and they are bigger and kill-ier besides. Also the wise ones are inexperienced in using the one power when compared to AS in battle, as it states in the text, and have had no training in fighting against Saidin besides. So with that to put it in comparitive terms:

 

40,000 Aeil

200 Wise Ones

 

Vs

 

7000 assorted soldiers

900 wise ones

 

So its like an imbalance of 700 Wise Ones. To put it in another way

 

40,000 Aeil

200 Riflemen

 

Vs

 

7000 assorted soldiers

200 M1 Abram battle tanks

 

I guarantee you no matter how good they are with their spears tanks are going to kill those Aeil at a greater than 8 to 1 ratio, even if some of those rifle men have anti tank weapons. While greater numbers will still beat technologically superior forces the ratio of soldiers needed for the more primitive side to win increases along with the gap in technology. The afforementioned British wouldn't have lost if they had all been given AK-47's. That is the sought of difference in power between your average soldier and a channeler. Surprise and assassination is the only real way for these two to be equal, once the channeler is prepared its game over.

 

The only reason that such battles don't happen in real life is

a) No nation has gotten its capacity for killing so far ahead of another countries (unless a power with nuclear weapons were to obliterate one without)

b) A country that is that far behind another countries weapon system isn't stupid enough to pick a stand up fight. Unless the advanced country starts it, I haven't been able to find casualties for the invasion of Iraq, as in Iraqi defence forces killed vs co-alition forces lost but I suspect that sought of 8-1 figure wuld crop up, most co-alition forces fighting style consists of lasing the target.

 

EDIT: honestly it seems in the later books like male and female strengths are beginning to even out with the men being only a little stronger in general, but back then there was a definite feel that even Egwene and Elayne, some of the strongest channelers in the series except for Nyn and forsaken, would have trouble standing up to even an ashaman of middling strength. And I am sure that those Wise Ones wouldn't have been packing too many super strong channelers.

[emeyers]

In LoC Perrin says they have:

6000 spears of the dragon

1000 maidens

500 of Dobraine's armsmen

200 Mayeners

300 Two rivers bowmen

9 Aes Sedai I don't know about warders

200 Wise ones

almost 300 Asha'man

1000 wolves

 

The real reason they won has already been mentioned. Asha'man train, wise ones don't. This is the first time in history that wise ones have used the one power in battle. All they know is probably the basics; fireballs, and lightning. The Asha'man countered these with their dome and then began to attack in ways the wise ones couldn't easily counter because they were farther away. During the battle of Malden Perrin mentions that the channelers closest have an advantage in reaction time. The wise ones couldn't see what the Asha'man were doing, the Asha'mans dome didn't require to them see. The wise ones were using fire which women are weak in, the Asha'man used fire and earth which are their strongest powers.

 

Anyone know how many men the Seanchan have? I estimate the number to be how ever many the author needs. They can't have as many as Rand though.

[ShaitanKiller]

 

 

Those Dumai Well numbers are ridiculous. They're trying to say that 1300 men beat off 40,000 Shaido? Yeah the good guys had 200 Asha'men, but if there were 200 Wise Ones they should mostly balance each other out. 40,000 Shaido would've overrun that army in minutes.

yes, they are saying that 1300 beat 40k (I find some of the numbers doubtful but I do not see any reason to disbelieve the most basic concepts in this conversation). On top of what el mandarb said, I will add this: There is a difference between wise ones at this point of the story and asha'man. Hell, the Aes Sedai that were surrounded by the Shaido force were as effective or more effective than the 200 wise ones. The wise ones commented before the fight that fighting with the power was new to them. So 30ish AS took on 200 wise ones and accounting for themselves pretty well. Next, 200 Asha'man show up and WTFpwn the Aiel. Why? because unlike wise ones, they had been taught how to use the OP to kill, they were even more effective than the AS because they had no restrictions and whereas AS only spend a portion of the time learning how to fight, that is all Asha'man learn to do. Expect the Asha'man to pretty much accomplish the same thing against any force with poorly trained one power users and most likely any force backed up by Aes Sedai, because they have nothing holding them back from absolutely curbstomping anyone. Once the ability of the enemy power users was stymied, the Asha'man had their way with the Aiel infantry, and at that point, as Rand has shown us 2-3 times now, there is no upward limit on the number of infantry that can be killed through use of the power so quantity of foot troops really becomes inconsequential.

 

I'm going to address this once more and then give up. There is no way in hell that a force that's outnumbered 8 to 1 can win in the manner described.

 

Here are some real life examples of battles fought with overwhelming strength by one side.

 

In the Zulu war, the initial battle was fought by a force of 4100 British and auxilary troops (1600 British, 2500 African troops). They faced a force 20,000 strong. That's only 5-1 odds. The British had much superior technology (equate that with the Asha'men if you will). The result? Complete and utter annihilation. Not a single survivor.

 

We all know about the Battle of Little Big Horn. Custer was outnumbered there at anywhere from a 3-1 to 7-1 odds (historians disagree on the exact number), and he was completely wiped out. Another example of a force with superior technology engaging a force with overwhelming numbers.

 

I could go on about this to endless length, but the numbers are quite frankly ridiculous. Since the RPG is not canon, it has not been verified accurate by Team Jordan, and I've already found major mistakes in it with regards to the defense of Edmond's Field, I think we can safely put aside the supposed numbers at Dumai Wells.

 

As much as we'd like to believe in technology, overwhelming numbers usually wins out against a small force with better technology. I could believe a 2-1 or 3-1 size difference, but not an 8-1 size difference.

 

 

i find it entirely plausible that despite being outnumbered 8-1 the good guys won.....

history is also filled with examples of a side being outnumbered hopelessly and winning (if u want i can give examples)....

add on top that both rand and perrin were present in this battle... 2 very powerful taveren can influence the events of one battle, no???

[decrepid dragon]

Anyone know how many men the Seanchan have? I estimate the number to be how ever many the author needs. They can't have as many as Rand though.

Too true, they seem to pull hundreds of thousands of troops from nowhere. Although I think only 50,000-100,000 or so of these would be actual seanchan troops. They would continue massing a heap if their homeland hadn't been destroyed, but I think their main strength is the standing armies of whatever nations they took. So Rand would have more (especially now that the borderlanders are with him, 200,000+ however many they had sitting at home, probably that much again). Funnily enough I am not sure I have ever heard of a Tarien or Illian army reaching the heady heights of 100,000 soldiers all in one place, even though they have been stomping around for the longest, as Carheins army was pretty much rolled in book 5 and 6.

 

Now that Andor and Carhein are with Elayne, and considering the borderlanders are still pretty independent, Rand really only fully controls Illian and Tear, as Elayne would do what he asked for the most part but would make a big fuss and carry on. Perrin I geuss brings Ghealden in along with the two Rivers and Mayene, But Rand himself seems to have very little power in a lot of places. I guess he would hold a lot of sway in Arad Doman now, but its military strength has been pretty much smashed in conflict with the seanchan, and a lot more of his soldiers died facing trollocs. If Mattin Stepanos takes back Illians crown (no doubt he will rock up expecting to die annd Rand will just casually flip him the crown, earning his gratitude forever) Rand will leave every place with a ruler, even Tear. Thats a pretty stable place to leave behind, assuming no kings/queens die, and knowing RJ...

[emeyers]

Even thought the Seanchan can't have brought too many troops they seem to have way more than they should. Even if Tarabon, Altara, and Amidcia each gave them 50,000 levies (which is ridiculously high considering A: those countries are all pretty small B: Their military's were smashed by the Seanchan first C: The Seanchan mention they have not been recruiting everyone because that would cause rebellion) They would have at most 250,000 troops. Ituralde faced at least twice that number in his campaign so where are they coming from?

 

Illian had almost 200,000 under "Lord Brend" in the hill forts, not all of them joined Rand but that is why I think Illian can field at least 90,00 under Rand.

 

The new Rand doesn't seem too interesting in controlling armies.

[Corvinus]

 

 

Those Dumai Well numbers are ridiculous. They're trying to say that 1300 men beat off 40,000 Shaido? Yeah the good guys had 200 Asha'men, but if there were 200 Wise Ones they should mostly balance each other out. 40,000 Shaido would've overrun that army in minutes.

yes, they are saying that 1300 beat 40k (I find some of the numbers doubtful but I do not see any reason to disbelieve the most basic concepts in this conversation). On top of what el mandarb said, I will add this: There is a difference between wise ones at this point of the story and asha'man. Hell, the Aes Sedai that were surrounded by the Shaido force were as effective or more effective than the 200 wise ones. The wise ones commented before the fight that fighting with the power was new to them. So 30ish AS took on 200 wise ones and accounting for themselves pretty well. Next, 200 Asha'man show up and WTFpwn the Aiel. Why? because unlike wise ones, they had been taught how to use the OP to kill, they were even more effective than the AS because they had no restrictions and whereas AS only spend a portion of the time learning how to fight, that is all Asha'man learn to do. Expect the Asha'man to pretty much accomplish the same thing against any force with poorly trained one power users and most likely any force backed up by Aes Sedai, because they have nothing holding them back from absolutely curbstomping anyone. Once the ability of the enemy power users was stymied, the Asha'man had their way with the Aiel infantry, and at that point, as Rand has shown us 2-3 times now, there is no upward limit on the number of infantry that can be killed through use of the power so quantity of foot troops really becomes inconsequential.

 

I'm going to address this once more and then give up. There is no way in hell that a force that's outnumbered 8 to 1 can win in the manner described.

 

Here are some real life examples of battles fought with overwhelming strength by one side.

 

In the Zulu war, the initial battle was fought by a force of 4100 British and auxilary troops (1600 British, 2500 African troops). They faced a force 20,000 strong. That's only 5-1 odds. The British had much superior technology (equate that with the Asha'men if you will). The result? Complete and utter annihilation. Not a single survivor.

 

We all know about the Battle of Little Big Horn. Custer was outnumbered there at anywhere from a 3-1 to 7-1 odds (historians disagree on the exact number), and he was completely wiped out. Another example of a force with superior technology engaging a force with overwhelming numbers.

 

I could go on about this to endless length, but the numbers are quite frankly ridiculous. Since the RPG is not canon, it has not been verified accurate by Team Jordan, and I've already found major mistakes in it with regards to the defense of Edmond's Field, I think we can safely put aside the supposed numbers at Dumai Wells.

 

As much as we'd like to believe in technology, overwhelming numbers usually wins out against a small force with better technology. I could believe a 2-1 or 3-1 size difference, but not an 8-1 size difference.

 

You have a point about numbers, though obviously you refuse to listen about the efficiency of Asha'man in battle. The only part of that battle I find somewhat ridiculous is the fact that Aes Sedai were able to hold the Shaido back until Perrin and co. arrived (The Shaido should have overwhelmed them in minutes, though I would say it was Gawyn preparedness that stopped that). A surprise rear attack from a force of approx 7000 against a force of 40,000 can be effective. However, Perrin still would have lost if the Asha'man hadn't arrived. And then there are the tactics used by the Asha'man: a large dome made with the OP that effectively closed the area around the camp, so there was no way for the Shaido to get in; the Shaido started to get slaughtered, they couldn't strike back - battle lost.

[Corvinus]

What Perrin has is a coalition. Though Mayene, Ghealdan, and the Whitecloaks fight under his command, they are not really his.

The Two Rivers men are his along with all the other refugees and mercenaries that now form the Wolf Guard.

 

 

It's not a coalition. Galad swore an oath to obey Perrin, as did Berelain and Alliandre. When he combined with the Seanchan to fight the Shaido at Malden, that was a coalition. What he has now are three commands who are each sworn to follow him personally.

 

Galad will only fight under Perrin's command until the Last Battle is finished. Berelain probably the same since her main ambition was to have a connection with the Dragon. Only Alliandre has sworn the oath of a vassal. The word coalition is used in ToM from Egwene's perspective, and that is mainly why I used it. Perrin himself has tended to see them as his close allies, and he would let them go if they asked. (or he would have before he became a better leader)

 

and your point is . . .?

 

The whole point of this exercise is to figure out how many men the Armies of the Light (AOL) will have at Tarmon Gaidon. Alliandre, Galad, and Berelain have all sworn oaths to obey and follow Perrin. After that Perrin won't need to have an army of 80,000+ and most of those will probably disperse to take up normal lives.

 

Sorry, people were trying to figure out what to call Perrin's army. I personally see no reason to name it, hence the reason why I went with the coalition thing.

[WWWwombat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

 

Numbers are disputed but that was probably about 4:1 in favor of the French.

 

 

There aren't any real life battles analagous to Dumai's Wells. I'd imagine a bunch of Zulus charging a WWI style trench with machine guns might be similar. Dumai's Wells wasn't a battle. It was a massacre.

[Erunion]

On your point with the Zulu wars - Remember the battle of Rorke's Drift. 140 British soldiers (of which only 80 were actually fit for active duty) held off some 3-4k Zulu's. The British forces suffered 17 killed, 14 wounded to the Zulu's 350 killed, 500 wounded.

[Sharaman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt

 

Numbers are disputed but that was probably about 4:1 in favor of the French.

 

 

There aren't any real life battles analagous to Dumai's Wells. I'd imagine a bunch of Zulus charging a WWI style trench with machine guns might be similar. Dumai's Wells wasn't a battle. It was a massacre.

The River War - Kitchener in the Sudan.

Most of the battles were precisely that - a small force with gatlings and steamers up against vastly superior numbers with no firearms.

[smileyman]

You have a point about numbers, though obviously you refuse to listen about the efficiency of Asha'man in battle. The only part of that battle I find somewhat ridiculous is the fact that Aes Sedai were able to hold the Shaido back until Perrin and co. arrived (The Shaido should have overwhelmed them in minutes, though I would say it was Gawyn preparedness that stopped that). A surprise rear attack from a force of approx 7000 against a force of 40,000 can be effective. However, Perrin still would have lost if the Asha'man hadn't arrived. And then there are the tactics used by the Asha'man: a large dome made with the OP that effectively closed the area around the camp, so there was no way for the Shaido to get in; the Shaido started to get slaughtered, they couldn't strike back - battle lost.

 

I'm not ignoring that. Even with that superior technology Perrins' force should have been overwhelmed in minutes if they were really at an 8-1 disadvantage. It defies reasonable expectations, especially since the Asha'men didn't start blasting away people in formation until after they'd found and rescued Rand. If it was 8 to 1 odds as the RPG says (and I've already proven it wrong in other numbers), Perrin's force would've been overwhelmed before they got to the rescue. I can believe 3-1 or even 4-1 odds, but 8-1 is simply ridiculous.

[smileyman]

On your point with the Zulu wars - Remember the battle of Rorke's Drift. 140 British soldiers (of which only 80 were actually fit for active duty) held off some 3-4k Zulu's. The British forces suffered 17 killed, 14 wounded to the Zulu's 350 killed, 500 wounded.

 

Completely different type of situation really. Rorke's Drift was a defensive front, the Zulus didn't all engage at once (as was traditional for them), and the Zulus weren't really defeated. They withdrew when they realized they couldn't push through.

 

A smaller force can beat off the larger force if they're in a good defensive position. If they're the ones attacking and the the odds really are 8-1 it's completely unbelievable.

[smileyman]

In LoC Perrin says they have:

6000 spears of the dragon

1000 maidens

500 of Dobraine's armsmen

200 Mayeners

300 Two rivers bowmen

9 Aes Sedai I don't know about warders

200 Wise ones

almost 300 Asha'man

1000 wolves

 

The real reason they won has already been mentioned. Asha'man train, wise ones don't. This is the first time in history that wise ones have used the one power in battle. All they know is probably the basics; fireballs, and lightning. The Asha'man countered these with their dome and then began to attack in ways the wise ones couldn't easily counter because they were farther away. During the battle of Malden Perrin mentions that the channelers closest have an advantage in reaction time. The wise ones couldn't see what the Asha'man were doing, the Asha'mans dome didn't require to them see. The wise ones were using fire which women are weak in, the Asha'man used fire and earth which are their strongest powers.

 

Anyone know how many men the Seanchan have? I estimate the number to be how ever many the author needs. They can't have as many as Rand though.

 

Those numbers are actually realistic. That gives you nearly 8,000 infantry, which is only 4:1 odds, plus 500 channelers which gives you the advantage at 2:1 plus the wolves (no idea how to rate them compared to men). A 4-1 or 3.5-1 difference with Perrin's army having twice the number of channelers is completely reasonable. Yet again the RPG is proven wrong.

 

 

 

[smileyman]

http://en.wikipedia....le_of_Agincourt

 

Numbers are disputed but that was probably about 4:1 in favor of the French.

 

 

There aren't any real life battles analagous to Dumai's Wells. I'd imagine a bunch of Zulus charging a WWI style trench with machine guns might be similar. Dumai's Wells wasn't a battle. It was a massacre.

 

4-1 is completely believable, especially since the British had superior weapons technology in their longbows (and most of the British force were archers). 8:1 is completely unrealistic and that's the point I'm making.

[Muad Cheade]

In regards to the thread's deviation to the Dumai's Well, there are a few points I'd like to make.

 

1). The Wise Ones were new to using the Power in battle, and while the Aes Sedai haven't been as effective recently, they were still able to create a dome of air to repel the Shaido.

 

2). First the charge by Perrin's force was unexpected. The Shaido committed their reserves so they would have no idea a sizeable force would attack their flank.

 

3). The wolves' attack on the other flank was very unexpected as well. How would you react if lethal carnivores attacked from behind?

 

4). The Shaido were beginning to neutralize the sudden charges by both the wolves and Perrin's forces. That's when the Asha'man entered the battle.

 

5). The Asha'aman broke the morale of the Shaido. There's nothing like seeing your people explode into pieces to shatter morale. Sure they are Aiel but that was clearly a rout.

 

6). So basically two small forces, one of lancers, Aiel and channelers and one of wolves (which is the most terrifying of the two), attacked a larger wholly committed force from the rear (a rough example would be that of the Battle of Marathon) and then living weapons arrived devastated the Shaido.

 

You don't need to completely defeat or kill and army. Breaking the spirit and causing a rout works perfectly.

[Durinax]

massacre isnt as effective in battle as destroying morale. Take away their will to fight and you can with any battle/war

[gary0044187]

Those numbers are actually realistic. That gives you nearly 8,000 infantry, which is only 4:1 odds, plus 500 channelers which gives you the advantage at 2:1 plus the wolves (no idea how to rate them compared to men). A 4-1 or 3.5-1 difference with Perrin's army having twice the number of channelers is completely reasonable. Yet again the RPG is proven wrong.

Yet the real point is this- in a battle with a large number of channelers on one side or the other, the number of troops really makes little difference. Who ever has the most effective channelers will win the battle. How many times has Rand or Rand + 1-30 killed over 100k trollocs? All infantry seems to exist for in this series now is to soak casualties so the channelers can kill more. The Dragons might change that but I doubt it.

[apaeter]

In diablo 2 I personally slaughtered maybe 20,000 enemies, and they had some pretty well defended positions. 8:1 doesn't seem too bad in a fantasy context... :)

 

Anyway, is there a way to estimate the size of the Shadow's forces? If the DO sends 8,000 trollocs and 40 fades to crush a few hundred villagers, is that about the ratio we can expect?

[Sharaman]

Several 100,000 assault Maradon. 150,000 at Tarwin's Gap.

It's reasonable to assume that Arafel and Kandor were hit with similar forces to Saldea.

Perrin's lot faced over 50K on the Jehannah Road.

Apparently another biggish force is hitting Caemlyn.

GLoD has trollocs up the kazoo - maybe the blank in the Blight is a giant axolotl tank that breeds them full grown.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've always contended that the force levels on both sides are unrealistic.

 

Sure Napoleon could raise huge armies - BECAUSE, he was paying them and supplying them from what he stole from those he defeated.

 

That works as a logistics strategy for the Dark to a much greater extent than for the Light.

 

In a pre-industrial society it requires a lot of labor to produce anything. How much ore can a miner dig per day? By hand? How much ore can a smelter process per day? By hand? How many men does it take to do that? How many pikeheads can one blacksmith produce from that refined ore per day? How many livestock does an army consume per day? How many herdsman does it take to look after enough livestock to supply that army for a month? How many hides can a tanner process per day? How many boots and jerkins etc. can be made from those hides? How many tailors and cobblers would it take to make that basic clothing. How many sheep would it take to produce enough wool to clothe an army? Who shears those sheep? Who moves all of those things from where they are grown/dug to where they get rendered into something else to where they are needed. How many wagons and horses/mules/oxen does that take? This just begins to scratch the surface of the logistics problem.

 

The larger the army the greater the supporting infrastructure has to be to keep that army even minimally supplied and supported. In any society the more people the military soaks up, the fewer there are to provide that infrastructure. The more the military consumes the less there is to supply the needs of the civilians. It doesn't take all that much of that kind of strain before nations collapse, even industrialized ones, look at Germany in World War I.

 

Any nation can put a lot of men under arms for short periods, but only one with large reserves of strategic materials and an efficient industrialized agricultural, manufacturing, and distribution system can keep that army in the field for any length of time. No Randland nation has that, and all of them have had large armies stomping around spoiling crops, killing civilians, disrupting everything for the entire two year timeframe of this series. All the while reality is breaking down, weather is against them, and what food there is is spoiling.

 

Yet, somehow, in a land where everywhere we are shown, other than cities, there is virtually nothing but wilderness, and abandoned farms and villages, there are 100,000 plus man armies everywhere you look. And millions of cannon-fodder Trollocs.

 

As the King said to Anna, "'Tis a puzzlement."

[emeyers]

I don't know how to quote so just to address the previous comment.

 

A: Randland is not pre-industrial, they are a blend of industrial age technology (for instance they have the printing press and bell founders)and pre industrial social system. The technology to mass produce their weapons has been around for a long time. It was stated early in the series that the only reason they stay at their present level of tech is because they are efficient at turning out swords and spears and crossbows. Also a spear does not take that much metal to make.

 

B: Rand and other characters have noted that there is going to be widespread famine from the lack of farmers tilling the land.