Discuss Lan/Defense of the Blight Border

[GB]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

 

I never considered that. Very interesting. I was assuming that it was when Nyn took the three oaths. But, now you have me thinking. Guess it all depends on where Lan's timeline falls.

 

Jen-

 

yeah it depends on when the assault on Tarwin Gap is.

[Two_Rivers_Tabac]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

 

 

You contracted 2 paragraphs there, and I feel that made a crucial difference to the whole reading of the passage. In the first paragraph we learn that "He could feel something distant etc.", then the way he muses only on Nynaeve in the next paragraph, concluding "-a final closeness-brought him strength" strongly suggests to me that he is only re-living in his mind the moment Nynaeve took over his bond, and taking strength from that. "He could still feel Nynaeve" has a feeling about it of mulling over, wonderingment and enjoyment,from the way I read that passage.

 

The only possible reference to Moiraine I see in this passage is the "instead of another", which I would see as a negation of his feeling Moiraine again after her return, rather than an affirmation, unless the timeline is out, in which case we just don't know.

[GB]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

 

 

You contracted 2 paragraphs there, and I feel that made a crucial difference to the whole reading of the passage. In the first paragraph we learn that "He could feel something distant etc.", then the way he muses only on Nynaeve in the next paragraph, concluding "-a final closeness-brought him strength" strongly suggests to me that he is only re-living in his mind the moment Nynaeve took over his bond, and taking strength from that. "He could still feel Nynaeve" has a feeling about it of mulling over, wonderingment and enjoyment,from the way I read that passage.

 

The only possible reference to Moiraine I see in this passage is the "instead of another", which I would see as a negation of his feeling Moiraine again after her return, rather than an affirmation, unless the timeline is out, in which case we just don't know.

 

yeah could be that he is just comparing the emotions of Myrelle to that of Nynaeve.

[rambling]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

 

 

You contracted 2 paragraphs there, and I feel that made a crucial difference to the whole reading of the passage. In the first paragraph we learn that "He could feel something distant etc.", then the way he muses only on Nynaeve in the next paragraph, concluding "-a final closeness-brought him strength" strongly suggests to me that he is only re-living in his mind the moment Nynaeve took over his bond, and taking strength from that. "He could still feel Nynaeve" has a feeling about it of mulling over, wonderingment and enjoyment,from the way I read that passage.

 

The only possible reference to Moiraine I see in this passage is the "instead of another", which I would see as a negation of his feeling Moiraine again after her return, rather than an affirmation, unless the timeline is out, in which case we just don't know.

 

yeah could be that he is just comparing the emotions of Myrelle to that of Nynaeve.

 

Hmm, here's my take -

"He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring, and passionate in the back of his mind. - As it says, he can still feel Nynaeve, he feels the same emotions through the bond as before,

He should have been pained to know that now she would suffer when he died, instead of another. - and thus, he should be upset that she will suffer on his death, when it could have been another AS,

However, that closeness to her - a final closeness - brought him strength." - but, instead, the change in the bond, which has resulted in a feeling of closeness to Nynaeve, has given him strength.

 

In his past POVs, Lan worried about the fact that Nynaeve was worrying about him. So, I would speculate that the change in the bond is because Nynaeve is worrying less and thinking 'be strong, help is on it's way'. According to BS, Lan's timeline lines up with FoM and there are plenty of gaps in the relevant POVs for help to have been organised by then. I suppose it is possible that there is some residual effect from Moiraine 'coming back to life', but IMO it's very unlikely.

[nordlicht]

so i was reading the epilogue again

 

and i wasnt sure about this whole part from Lan's PoV:

 

"he could feel something, distant, that had given him strength recently. The bond had changed. The emotions had changed. He could still feel Nynaeve, so wonderful, caring and passionate in the back of his mind."

 

any idea what that change was?

 

i was thinking that maybe that could have been when Moiraine got out of ToG, what if some residue of the bond was there and her return from ToG, had some effect even though Nyn has the bond. but thats not very likely

 

or maybe it was just Nyn whose emotions have changed, maybe she is getting ready to come to his rescue with help Rand sent? or White Tower sent?

I see it similar to rambling.

I strongly thought it to be a "timeline hook", the moment when Rand promised to Nyn that he would help Lan. I just was irritated as to the wording, I mean, before perhaps she was more worried, desperate etc., but wasn´t she caring and passionate all the way ?!

 

However, I´m hoping very much that Moiraine´s and Rand´s reunion will end with him sending her (+ some surplus AS) to Lan´s help. On thinking some more, Nynaeve and Moiraine together defending Lan, in fact Rand could even keep his surplus AS to himself ;) they´d just better be coming along for the WT´s pr-department´s sake...

[Sharaman]

Chances are, Rand helped rescue Lan before he rescued Ituralde. The timelines make that quite possible.

There's the 20-day missing period from Rand's timeline (Bandar Eban-Maradon)

Lan reaches Arafel a little after the time that Nyn takes the bond (around the time Rand's in Bandar Eban). He probably reached Tarwin's Gap before the Ituralde rescue sequence (20-odd days later).

So we'll see the rescue from Lan's PoV.

[rambling]

Chances are, Rand helped rescue Lan before he rescued Ituralde. The timelines make that quite possible.

There's the 20-day missing period from Rand's timeline (Bandar Eban-Maradon)

Lan reaches Arafel a little after the time that Nyn takes the bond (around the time Rand's in Bandar Eban). He probably reached Tarwin's Gap before the Ituralde rescue sequence (20-odd days later).

So we'll see the rescue from Lan's PoV.

 

You could argue that one in many ways, depending on how you arrange Mat's and Perrin's timelines. In fact, this is the very question that sent me off attempting a spreadsheet. That was when I realised just how messed up Mat's timeline is...

No way of telling for sure until next edition of the book, when they are supposedly going to sort this out. (Probably not even then)

[Sharaman]

Chances are, Rand helped rescue Lan before he rescued Ituralde. The timelines make that quite possible.

There's the 20-day missing period from Rand's timeline (Bandar Eban-Maradon)

Lan reaches Arafel a little after the time that Nyn takes the bond (around the time Rand's in Bandar Eban). He probably reached Tarwin's Gap before the Ituralde rescue sequence (20-odd days later).

So we'll see the rescue from Lan's PoV.

 

You could argue that one in many ways, depending on how you arrange Mat's and Perrin's timelines. In fact, this is the very question that sent me off attempting a spreadsheet. That was when I realised just how messed up Mat's timeline is...

No way of telling for sure until next edition of the book, when they are supposedly going to sort this out. (Probably not even then)

 

Pretty easy actually if you use Veins of Gold as a reference point.

To cut it short, Rand has five or six days maximum mentioned in the 27 days between VoG and FoM.

VoG+1= WT,

VoG+2 = Tear,

VoG+3/4 = Tear-Bandar Eban,

VoG+25=Maradon,

VoG+26 =Borderland meeting in Far Madding

VoG+27 = FoM.

There's a big gap in the middle.

 

Similarly Perrin falls into place using VoG since he witnessed it. You can mark his battles with that.

So does Mat's timeline until he enters ToG because of the Perrin connect - it's VoG+26 when Perrin sees Rand talk to the Borderlanders as Mat approaches ToG.

 

Lan is referenced by first, the fact that he feel's Nyn's bond before he hits the Arafel-Kandor border and Nyn got the bond on VoG+4

Second - the Egwene references to coordinated Borderland invasions (VoG+4/5) in Saldaea, Kandor, Arafel.

Third - Ituralde's defence of Maradon and the hill outside for weeks

and Bashere saying "we should have got here days earlier" on VoG+25.

Given Travel, Bashere, Rand & Co could only have been held up by a major emergency.

Rand didn't solve the Seanchan situation, he didn't solve the BT situation, where did he go with Bashere and the Dragonsworn army?

Only answer is Tarwin's Gap.

[rambling]

 

Pretty easy actually if you use Veins of Gold as a reference point.

To cut it short, Rand has five or six days maximum mentioned in the 27 days between VoG and FoM.

VoG+1= WT,

VoG+2 = Tear,

VoG+3/4 = Tear-Bandar Eban,

VoG+25=Maradon,

VoG+26 =Borderland meeting in Far Madding

VoG+27 = FoM.

There's a big gap in the middle.

 

Similarly Perrin falls into place using VoG since he witnessed it. You can mark his battles with that.

So does Mat's timeline until he enters ToG because of the Perrin connect - it's VoG+26 when Perrin sees Rand talk to the Borderlanders as Mat approaches ToG.

 

Ok, bear with me, this may take a while.

First, the quote below, which seems contradictory to me, but I'm going to go with the bold part as the rest of the sentence would only make things even worse than they are.

 

"...He(BS) did admit that there has been one “hitch” found in The Gathering Storm as per chronology that will be changed in upcoming editions. If I remember correctly he said Mat is roughly two weeks behind where he was meant to be and explained that Mat’s position in time at the end of The Gathering Storm

was supposed to be two weeks earlier than it was portrayed as being."

 

 

I agree Perrin's battle with Slayer and Egwene's with Mesaana are easily fixed at the night of day 811 or 812 ( VoG +9 or 10). I've seen both argued convincingly but I'll use 812 here.

 

Now, apart from Mat, the only thing to fix the day when Perrin breaks camp to go to FoM, is his vision of Rand talking to Borderlanders. This could be Rand at Far Madding at day 831 (VoG+29), but, in that case Mat would have been sitting in Caemlyn for 58 days (according to the timeline in TGS). Without opening Verin's letter. It also throws out just about all other references in Mat's timeline.

If you then move Mat's arrival (as per BS above) by "roughly two weeks", then we get Mat sitting in Caemlyn for 38 days. Which is better, but still does not line up with other references and makes nonsense of Mats evening vision of Rand in a tent since Rand at that point is in Tear (Mat POV ch.52)

If you then move Perrin's striking camp to FoM back, to make Mat's stay in Caemlyn exactly 30 days, you arrive at day 824 (VoG+22), which is quite possible from Perrin's POV, especially if you consider that on arrival at FoM Perrin asks Alliandre to travel to Jehannah to recruit more troops. He complains that this will only give him a short time for training but it will have to do (paraphrased). I'd argue that just by itself, this implies that there is more than just an evening left before FoM starts proper. On top of that, we know he arrived before Egwene, who arrived at least a day before Elayne.

In that case, taking Mat's and Perrin's visions from ch.52 and 53, Rand would have to be talking to people in a tent on the evening around day 823 (VoG+21) and with some Borderlanders the day after.

If you allow the idea that Rand has been meeting Borderlanders off-screen during the big gap in his timeline (as per ch.13, VoG +3, when Rand said that he will meet with Borderlanders in a few days) then it's not such a leap to say that he met them at other times too. We can only speculate as to why.

The trouble is, even if you take BS's two weeks into account and even if I've got all of the above absolutely right, this still makes nonsense of a lot of Mat's timeline. In fact, there is no way of arranging Mat's timeline to make all of his refernce points fit and there is no sure way of fixing Perrin's arrival at FoM and Mat's leaving for ToG.

 

 

 

Lan is referenced by first, the fact that he feel's Nyn's bond before he hits the Arafel-Kandor border and Nyn got the bond on VoG+4

Second - the Egwene references to coordinated Borderland invasions (VoG+4/5) in Saldaea, Kandor, Arafel.

Third - Ituralde's defence of Maradon and the hill outside for weeks

and Bashere saying "we should have got here days earlier" on VoG+25.

Given Travel, Bashere, Rand & Co could only have been held up by a major emergency.

Rand didn't solve the Seanchan situation, he didn't solve the BT situation, where did he go with Bashere and the Dragonsworn army?

Only answer is Tarwin's Gap.

 

 

 

Q: Regarding timeline in Towers of Midnight, what can you say about how each person's plot arc lined up?

Maria and Alan: There was a gap for some of the main story lines for about 1.5-2 weeks of only offscreen activity before the big meetup at Merrilor. Lan's trip from World's End to Tarwin's Gap took 100 days, and it lined him up with the other plotlines at that point. The whole gang can jump right into Tarmon Gai'don!

 

 

This quote makes Tarwin's gap either day 845 (VoG+43) or 832/833, depending on whose timeline you want to follow. I'll go with the latter.

If Lan didn't arrive at Tarwin's Gap until FoM, he could not have been rescued from it beforehand. I'm thinking that rescue has been arranged, it just hasn't arrived yet. It may well be what Rand was doing during those off-screen meetings above.

I've also argued elsewhere that he may well have sent the Borderland armies directly from Far Madding to Tarwin's Gap, before bringing some remaining representatives with him to FoM.

Either way.

 

The day numbers are based on Steven Cooper's timeline here

[Sharaman]

I think Brandon very deliberately threw in cross references to ensure that timelines matched up.

However you slice it, there are at least 20 missing days in Rand's timeline in between his return to Tear (VoG+2) and Maradon (VoG+25), which are vital.

 

We know when Mat went to TOG - that is the day Rand is in Far Madding.

We don't know when Mat came out.

In Mat's case it's puzzling why he hangs around Caemlyn but you could argue that's because he wants to knock off the gholam and needs to oversee the dragon production/induction. In any event, we know he was in Caemlyn.

 

The TAR fights of Perrin-Slayer Dreamspike / Mesaana-Egwene is earlier than VoG +9/10 by my judgement.

More like VoG+5/6.

I wish Copper would update.

[Darth Krewl]

I said this concerning Egwene and I'll say the same thing concerning Lan. There are some characters wrongfully perceived as heroes in TWoT and Lan is definitely one of them.

 

Being a hero means putting your personal interests behind of those of your loved ones - by marching alone to certain death, Lan was selfish, never thinking about Nynaeve's feelings and wishes. Being a hero means doing certain sacrifices in favor of the common good - again, by leaving for the Blight as and when he did, Lan forsake his friends and allies at their time of greatest need. Rand could certainly use the guy by his side right about now. And finally, being a hero (based on the traits above) and being an enemy of the Shadow is not the same thing.

 

Comparing Rand's efforts to save Ituralde with him going out of his way to bail out Lan is completely out of place. Rand recruited Ituralde, sent him straight into the wolf's lair and promised to send help. This is why he went went in Ituralde's aid. Rand did not send Lan into the Blight nor did he promise the man any assistance if he left.

 

Could be that new, compassionate Rand will go out of his way to save Lan at the last minute (he's already told Nynaeve that he'll do it) but, in no way, is he obliged to do that. It's not his fault that Lan went on his last stand on his own and, IMO, Rand can't afford to waste time bailing out suicidal fools who let their friends and allies down.

[Ataxia]

So lets just ignore everything Lan has done throughout the series right? Like dedicating his life(not going off to die in some pointless fight) to finding the Dragon Reborn and helping him become a man? Ah yeah, none of that matters. Or that his wife gave him permission to do so. Right. If Lan wants to lead his willing people to their deaths then so be it. I hope he takes out as many as he can and I will still view him as a hero. This charge isnt pointless. As of now, the Light has been on the defensive, waiting for death to come. Bring the fight to them for once. Good for Lan.

[Darth Krewl]

So lets just ignore everything Lan has done throughout the series right? Like dedicating his life(not going off to die in some pointless fight) to finding the Dragon Reborn and helping him become a man? Ah yeah, none of that matters. Or that his wife gave him permission to do so. Right. If Lan wants to lead his willing people to their deaths then so be it. I hope he takes out as many as he can and I will still view him as a hero.

 

Ignoring what Lan has done and deeming his actions as deeds worthy of a hero are two completely separate and different things. I never said that I ignore, forget or overlook the man's actions. I just don't see them as the deeds of a hero. In fact, Lan's the archetype of the anti-hero in more ways than one. But I won't go over a full explanation of that here.

 

Suffice to say that people are free to state their opinion and I respect it. I just expressed my opinion, like you did, and I know people will disagree with it. Doesn't mean I'll change my mind, only 'cause someone may not agree or like it and to me, al'Lan Mandragoran never was, is not and won't ever be a hero.

[Ataxia]

Care to explain to me why Rand needs Lan at his side right now?

[Darth Krewl]

Care to explain to me why Rand needs Lan at his side right now?

 

Simple. For the same reason why he needs Ituralde, Bashere and co. Because Lan's an outstanding warrior and Rand's got need of every sword he can get by his side.

 

I never said Lan was not an extremely valuable ally. Quite the contrary, I respect the man as a warrior, for his courage, integrity and experience. A man like him would be an invaluable combatant to have by your side at Tarmon Gai'don.

[blazetheearth]

I can see both sides of this discussion about hero/anti-hero. And I would claim that Lan has many qualities of both. I could not see him as HotH at all, but his public stance and personality have been that of a typical hero archetype (uncrowned King fulfilling oaths made over his cradle {lol, suddenly I thought of a Kal-el/Superman parallel with that reference, not the point I was gonna make though} and swearing more oaths to the same effect upon coming of age, excellent warrior w/almost preternatural abilities, fights for the side of light and right, and so on). But at the same time he does have the anti-hero thing going too (any method to protect those on his side, including murder of innocents, lack of feeling or compassion for those outside his acquaintance {except for the Malkieri, he cares enough for them as a whole that for most of his existence he refuses to lead them}, and so on).

 

I can't call Lan a Shining Example of The Light, but I definitely understand why he could be called a hero. I would call him a "heroic figure", but not necessarily a hero.

[folkstyle]

I have to disagree with some of the anti-hero comments because by definition a hero is someone who makes self sacrifice for the greater good of humanity and Lan sacrifices the greater part of his life to keep Moiraine safe and find the Dragon Reborn. This is essentially the most important thing he could do to keep humanity safe.

 

I do see that leading his people into Tarwin's Gap isn't really self sacrifice for the greater good because he's (possibly)loosing some of the forces that would fight for the light, but I still see him as a hero and I really like him. I think what he's doing is honorable and amazing, but I can see where you're saying by the literal definition of heroism he isn't being a hero when he does this.

 

Anyways, that's just my opinion. My main objective was to point out that he does sacrifice for the greater good in a large part of the story.

[Zodd]

Just to point out something about Lan's survival, not sure if I had already, or if someone else did.

 

I think it's fair to point out that all Min's Viewings are of the future, save for Mazrim Taim, which was only half about his past and obscure to boot.

 

This is her viewing of Lan:

 

Master Andra has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword.

tEotW, Chp. 15 Strangers and Friends, pg. 215

 

We all thought we had it figured out until the discussion of whether or not he survives was opened, making us reexamine everything we know. Now we second guess.

 

Seven Ruined Towers = The one-time capital of Malkier, laying ruined in the Blight. No arguments as to WHAT it is, now to the when. IF indeed Min's viewing is of the future, then this would suggest a return. He already did that once, on his trip to the Eye.

 

Babe/Cradle + Sword = We know that Lan was sworn by his parents as Dai Shan while holding his sword in his crib. So far we've seen no toddlers wielding blades. IF this viewing is of the future and NOT of himself (which Min usually specifies) this would suggest child. I haven't seen any signs Nynaeve is preggers atm, but I haven't been looking for signs. Anyone seen mood-swings (more often than normal plz) or sickness? One Power failure in the text? Only possible notice is of Lan's last charge where he thinks the bond had changed. Maybe she found out she was with child?

 

If she is NOT pregnet atm, this would suggjest that Lan survives. He IS the of the royal line of Malkier. No one else is gona be swearing that Oath besides his child.

 

just some thoughts

[blazetheearth]

I have to disagree with some of the anti-hero comments because by definition a hero is someone who makes self sacrifice for the greater good of humanity and Lan sacrifices the greater part of his life to keep Moiraine safe and find the Dragon Reborn. This is essentially the most important thing he could do to keep humanity safe.

 

I do see that leading his people into Tarwin's Gap isn't really self sacrifice for the greater good because he's (possibly)loosing some of the forces that would fight for the light, but I still see him as a hero and I really like him. I think what he's doing is honorable and amazing, but I can see where you're saying by the literal definition of heroism he isn't being a hero when he does this.

 

Anyways, that's just my opinion. My main objective was to point out that he does sacrifice for the greater good in a large part of the story.

 

 

I think we are just working with a difference in understanding of terminology. You defined hero as "someone who makes self sacrifice for the greater good of humanity" and I can only agree with that definition to a point, because I think it is to broad.

 

The way I am used to the terms "hero" and "anti-hero" being used is to define the difference between for example Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, or Professer X and Wolverine. All have the end goal of doing what is right for the good of all in mind (well maybe not Han, but it's Harrison Ford so we'll give him a pass) but the methods used can vary greatly. Personally, I believe that a willingness to murder innocents just because they could identify Moir as AS, solidly takes him out of the full hero category, because no one dedicated to the advance of the Light can see that as heroic. It falls to close to the opinions of the now extinct population of Aridhol. "Advance my view of what the Light should be at all costs, save that it hurt those I am sworn to protect." Aridhol/Shadar Logoth just dropped the last half of that sentence, but the two are not very far apart.

[ChrisAndre]

Lan's got too much of a sense of honor in him... 12,000 borderlanders vs 150,000 Trollocs? Someone should take him aside and tell him to fight in a way that kills more trollocs rather than just charging his army into them.

 

At least it's better than charging at 150,000 Trollocs all by his lonesome?

 

But it would be pretty cool if he was. Than all of the sudden when he just about to close ranks with Trolocs gateways open behind him and 250,000 borderlanders charge right with him. Would be a really cool movie scene!

 

And they would all pop up behind Lan without him knowing, and all 150,000 trollocs would start running away from Lan, and that would be what he expected anyway.

[Darth Krewl]

I have to disagree with some of the anti-hero comments because by definition a hero is someone who makes self sacrifice for the greater good of humanity and Lan sacrifices the greater part of his life to keep Moiraine safe and find the Dragon Reborn. This is essentially the most important thing he could do to keep humanity safe.

 

I do see that leading his people into Tarwin's Gap isn't really self sacrifice for the greater good because he's (possibly)loosing some of the forces that would fight for the light, but I still see him as a hero and I really like him. I think what he's doing is honorable and amazing, but I can see where you're saying by the literal definition of heroism he isn't being a hero when he does this.

 

Anyways, that's just my opinion. My main objective was to point out that he does sacrifice for the greater good in a large part of the story.

 

And you're perfectly free to disagree, of course. Because all I said was that the fact that Egwene, Lan and a few other characters in TWoT may be enemies of the Shadow doesn't make them heroes in my book. To me, the definition of a hero is not only opposing evil, but the manner in which you do it.

 

I was also saying that I'm totally against the idea of Rand going out of his way to save Lan, which he'll do, of course. That much has already been established, much to my chagrin, I admit it. And I say this because Lan's a mindful man who must know what he's doing and he takes responsibility for his actions. It's not him that is compromising his allies to go save his ass. It's his wife who's been pleading with Rand to do that, out of a sense of attachment and regardless of the cost this may have on the forces of the Light.

 

When Lan marched on Malkier's last stand, he made his decision and that was his alone. Therefore, I feel that he should pay the consequences of his own actions alone, as well. Him and the Malkieri marching w/him, of course. It's their right and prerogative. I'm only referring to Rand and his forces traveling to Tarwin's Gap, only to save a man because his wife asked for it. I don't think it's fair nor convenient to the forces of the Light, from a strategic standpoint. Changing your strategy at the last minute, only to save one man, when the fate of all hangs in the balance, is not sound strategy. In short, Lan is perfectly expendable in this sense. Especially, since he marched willingly to his death. Nobody asked him to do this.

 

This is why, like I said before, comparing Rand coming to Ituralde's aid with him doing the same for Lan isn't valid. Because Rand recruited Ituralde, sent him to the Borderlands and promised help. He did nothing of the sort with Lan and thus, is under no obligation to assist him. And, knowing Lan, I'm pretty sure he'll be pissed at both, Nyneave and the "sheepherder" for doing just that.

 

Mat gave an eye for Moiraine. Thom was badly burned for Moiraine. Noal/Jain even gave his life for a woman he didn't even know. Now, these men I do see as heroes, for all they sacrificed to save a friend in dire need; someone who sacrificed herself for a greater good, btw. But Lan, the man sworn to defend her over 20 yrs. earlier? He was thousands of miles away, throwing his life away over a cause long lost. To me, that's not the definition of a hero. But of a man suffering from deep depression, incapable of overcoming the ghosts from his past. And, IMO, this has got nothing to do with the bond. It's a matter of honor, simple as that.

 

Then again, this is my very personal opinion on this character. I just don't care about Lan Mandragoran (never have, never will) and I don't see him as a hero.

 

The way I am used to the terms "hero" and "anti-hero" being used is to define the difference between for example Luke Skywalker and Han Solo, or Professer X and Wolverine. All have the end goal of doing what is right for the good of all in mind (well maybe not Han, but it's Harrison Ford so we'll give him a pass) but the methods used can vary greatly. Personally, I believe that a willingness to murder innocents just because they could identify Moir as AS, solidly takes him out of the full hero category, because no one dedicated to the advance of the Light can see that as heroic. It falls to close to the opinions of the now extinct population of Aridhol. "Advance my view of what the Light should be at all costs, save that it hurt those I am sworn to protect." Aridhol/Shadar Logoth just dropped the last half of that sentence, but the two are not very far apart.

 

I agree. Luke and Han are the perfect example of the definition of hero and antihero. Definitely. Though Han is a complete 180 from Lan, in the sense that, while Han starts out doing stuff for selfish reasons, he does end up offering himself voluntarily to help the greater good, when he joins the Alliance and leads the attack on Endor. Lan, on the other hand, starts out by helping out the greater cause, but then leaves everything behind for selfish reasons: to carry out his personal vendetta against the Shadow.

 

In addition to the observation you've made about Lan willing to murder innocents, is spot on to illustrate that the man's not a hero, but an antihero. The way he threatens to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, should their innocent but very imprudent ways compromise Moiraine in Baerlon, is not what you'd expect from a hero, definitely. He's impatient with them, barely helpful and openly disdains the three kids. He questions Moiraine's decisions even since before leaving the Two Rivers, which IMO, means that the man's not doing this out of personal conviction, but only deferring to his Aes Sedai.

 

I could go on and on to show examples of how Lan's an antihero more than a hero, but in the end, it's all a matter of personal interpretation and preference. So, in the end, people will decide for themselves, of course. And that's all I'm saying, in my book, Lan Mandragoran does not qualify as a hero, in the traditional sense of the hero in fantasy.

[Entreri]

I hope Lan does not die. It would suck to see the greatest blademaster in the series, possibly ever, to die like that.

[blazetheearth]

The "potential to murder innocents" that I had thought of was the scene in Jarra in TDR when Perrin goes to Moir's room and tells her that Simmian knows she is AS, and Lan's first reaction is to tense as though ready to do violence and only stands down when Moir tells him "No". Because of that scene and her comment in it to Perrin that her answer "may not always be 'No'" really made me wonder about the time that we have no books to reference. Almost 20 years pass between tNS and TEoTW, so how many times during those 2 decades was her response "yes" instead. Lan's immediate ready willingness for the "yes" answer makes it seem like there was at least a 50/50 chance for either response. And at that moment they wouldn't even have had the excuse of having Rand with them to protect, because they were trailing him through that part of the book. The only thing killing Simmian would have accomplished is protecting Moir's identity.

[Darth Krewl]

The "potential to murder innocents" that I had thought of was the scene in Jarra in TDR when Perrin goes to Moir's room and tells her that Simmian knows she is AS, and Lan's first reaction is to tense as though ready to do violence and only stands down when Moir tells him "No". Because of that scene and her comment in it to Perrin that her answer "may not always be 'No'" really made me wonder about the time that we have no books to reference. Almost 20 years pass between tNS and TEoTW, so how many times during those 2 decades was her response "yes" instead. Lan's immediate ready willingness for the "yes" answer makes it seem like there was at least a 50/50 chance for either response. And at that moment they wouldn't even have had the excuse of having Rand with them to protect, because they were trailing him through that part of the book. The only thing killing Simmian would have accomplished is protecting Moir's identity.

 

Well, there you go. I didn't even remember that scene lol! But, I do remember him lashing out at the three kids in the baths at Baerlon. Mat was being an idiot, granted, but I think the guy could've handled it much more smoothly and patiently (see how Thom handles the poor, ignorant country kids, for instance) and didn't have to threaten with killing them if their imprudence compromised Moiraine.

[Corvinus]

Moiraine herself had threatened to kill the three boys if things went bad. So obviously Lan would the same if she had told him.