Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[ascot7]

The Seanchan will be valuable in the last battle as they'll be able to provide the only air support for the good guys. Plus, they have the best channelers for use in battle. All it will take is for Rand to be a bit more pleasant when he goes before Tuon next time.

 

I found Aviendha's visions of the future strange; they imply that either the Seanchan never accept that Sul'dam can learn to channel or that they either suppress the information or the info never becomes widely known throughout their empire. I still expect Egwene to take some action to get the damane freed and sul'dam trained.

[lsm]

The next step, of course, is technology. And it´s also an alternative to the whole damane business. In Aviendha´s visions in Rhuidean it occurred to me that the first two or three didn´t mention anything about channelers. Nothing about damane or Aes Sedai. OK, the White Tower has fallen, but where are the channelers? Perhaps they simply got replaced by much more effective technology. No need for them anymore, so perhaps they got killed on discovery for a few decades.

apologies for the off topic of morale slavery ;) but this is a excellent point and the dying off of the one power post TG has been discussed often over the years

 

the two most future visions, theres nothing with one power, it all seems to be technology. then the attack on the secret hold, it's just arrows and hissing guns. then it skips a few generations closer to the 'present', white tower falls, aiel complains about the efficient capturing and killing of male or female Aiel channelers, and then, well it gets closer to the present and theres still channelers. isn't it weird that avi's kids are turned on all the time?

 

so according to avi's vision, it seems like the seanchan are not going to stop collaring women, and start to catch men too, which will then quickly, 3-4 generations or so? lead to the disappearance of the one power somehow (culled?) to be replaced with technology.

 

well it would really suck if thats how the future of randland is going to be, seanchan owning all and no more magic stuff

[ascot7]

Hello,

Yes the Seancham are an enigma at this point in the series. They will be valuable in the air, and Tuon will have to pay compensation to the Tower for all the dammage they have caused. Rand could get a truce and an agreement from Tuon, to satisfy her peoples conquests. That after the last battle, he will allow Tuon to claim all their lands. Mat has a hand in this problem also, as he is her Husband! And Rand will go to Tuon with Mat, to hammer out a truce. For they have to have an allignment with Rand. If the Seanchan fight in the last battle, on their own, they can still be assisting Rand in the war. Moriene has a part to play also, and she will persuade Egwene to form the power for Rand, so that he can destroy the dark ones prison and then seal it,.

[moratcorlm]

which will then quickly, 3-4 generations or so? lead to the disappearance of the one power somehow (culled?) to be replaced with technology.

That isn't at all clear. We learn that "The Seanchan were particularly determined when it came to killing or capturing all Aiel—male or female—who showed any talent with the One Power," and consequently Tava, Norlesh, and Malidra live without them; moreover, they're in the Aiel Waste, not a place anyone except merchants on the trans-Waste highway or ore prospectors seem to come to. That the last Aiel don't know anything about the Power says nothing about the outside world.

[lsm]

yeah in other words, the absence of evidence is not really evidence. but still, when they raided the secret hold you'd think there would of been some suldam/damane to colar possible people? the way little details in this series are dished out to bring out greater meaning and speculation just veered that line of thinking for me. then again i think it's generally accepted that avi's vision is not what will happen, but might

[Exy]

Secret police?

The price of modern civilization. I don't approve of how draconian their justice system can be, but it is a justice system, and it does seem to be applied disinterestedly. That's something of a novelty in these parts.

"The price of modern civilization"?! Are you serious? The only modern civilizations that have had extensive systems of secret police were literal fascist states.

 

I do not believe you can demonstrate this. Cairhien does not seem much better.

I don't remember any signs of Cairhien being a terrible place for commoners to live.

 

Amadicia is not.

No, because Amadicia is also a police state run by brutal authoritarians.

 

Altara was lawless.

Altara was prosperous and it was, in reality if not officially, a patchwork of small local city-states. There was no sign that the people there (or those in the similar nation of Murandy) were bad off compared to most others. In fact, prior to the Seanchan conquest, it appeared to be one of the nicer areas -- later than most other places to start falling apart due to the events of the End Times.

 

The argument that Altara is better off because it's now unified under a single authority truly boils down to advocating authority for its own sake. Which, I guess, explains your ardent support for the fascist Seanchan.

 

Andor is only better sometimes; there seems to be a notion of a social contract, but we've seen plenty of instances where it's flagrantly disregarded by the powerful.

Some powerful people will abuse their power in any society. That's no shock. It's hardly a convincing argument for why a slave-holding police state would be better, especially since the examples we've seen are pretty few in number.

 

What do we know about the Borderlands? There, Faile tells us, "tyrants [can] be endured", suggesting they're hardly unfamiliar with tyranny.

From what we've seen, at least, the Borderlands appear to be about the best places to live. (Well, aside from all the Fades.) Faile is royalty, and gives a lot of insight in her POVs as to how Saldaean royals, at least, behave, and she's constantly concerned about the welfare of the people under her. And she's consistent in trying to get Perrin to rule effectively.

 

The Aiel? The Shaido showed us precisely what ji'e'toh is worth when they get a breather, not that we didn't already know they're ludicrously violent and slavers themselves to boot.

Yeah, the Aiel pretty much suck too, but the Shaido are hardly a fair depiction of Aiel culture in general -- that situation arose because of a public revelation that pulled out the foundations of Aiel society.

[moratcorlm]

"The price of modern civilization"?! Are you serious? The only modern civilizations that have had extensive systems of secret police were literal fascist states.

Every modern country has its secret police. Every single one. Perhaps they are not a necessary component of modern civilization, but the technological and societal advances that make pervasive surveillance possible and those that make industrial civilization possible are pretty much contemporaneous when they aren't identical.

I don't remember any signs of Cairhien being a terrible place for commoners to live.

“I feel fine,” Mat said grumpily, “but I certainly didn’t have any trouble leaving the other servants. The ones who weren’t asking if you starved me thought I was sick and didn’t want to come too close.”

Indicating that starvation of servants is not unheard of. There are other clues, as there are for the other societies.

Some powerful people will abuse their power in any society.

A society in which the powerful decide whether or not they want to enforce the laws against themselves (i.e., feudalism) is not, in my opinion, a step forward for due process than an absolute monarchy in which some subjects are slaves, but the protection of the law is all-encompassing. And Houses Marne and Caerin were at least equal in power to Trakand; these are not "few" examples when there are 19 people in Andor with that kind of power, and we've only seen perhaps six in that kind of situation.

From what we've seen, at least, the Borderlands appear to be about the best places to live.

What we've seen are a handful of chapters from a houseguest of the second-strongest lord in Shienar and the second-hand information from Faile about Saldaea, part of which is her admission that tyrants (and this is from her perspective as a pampered princess, not a commoner) are neither unheard-of nor challenged within the Borderlands.

[Ltsegarra]

What I think people are forgetting in there arguments is Tarmon Gaidan. For the most parts the Seanchan have not only conquered, but consolidated small territories in a "greater nation" more able to moblize and face TG. Greater nations like Andor, Carhnien, Tear, etc already have standing armies and alliances. So on this regard, the smaller nations when described as "lawless" could be described as physically unable to fight in TG, while the greater nations spiritual/philosophically would be unable to fight TG. Following this logic, the Seanchan purpose first unifies many smaller nations and secondly galvanize the larger nations to unify against them.

What makes the Seanchan a decent nation is how they treated the trader and "little" people. The Seanchan even under the DF general simply request that people swear alliance to the throne and left them to trade even outside of their borders. We have to remember that to the Seanchan they're not trully conquering, but "Returning" to what was rightfully theirs...in their opinion.

As far as the chained ones...it is slavery simply because it's dehumanizing. The trainers treat humans as pets to be reward and punished according to their whims. However, as others pointed out the seeds to address this problem from WITHIN, have been provided by Jordan already. As a cornerstone of Seanchan culture and military might, it's going to be interesting to see how Jordan through Sanderson bears it's fruits.

There was a good catch by some poster about the future and lack of channeling. I'm forced to go reread this sections but if true there is an implication of two things as I can see it. Either the Tuon/channeling dilemma will cause such a crisis and loss of Seanchan identity that the regular Seanchan will begin a geonicidal "Purge" of all channelers within and without Or...something that Rand does while resealing the prison will like the "tainting" of Saidin, will unimaginably seal off the True Source from channelers.

Honestly both outcomes will be ultimately disproven in my opinion due to the fact that the build up so far and Jordan's own "Wheel of Time" offers us a glimpse of the golden times of Aes Sedai..of male and female channelers working together...of a military arm similar to the Seanchans...all "working" or existing together as in Rands vision at Rhuidean.

[Agelmar]

You show a misunderstanding of feudalism and serfdom, particularly as they exist in the Randland societies at the time the books take place.

 

The type of serfdom you appearing to be thinking of--in which serfs were bound to the land--existed in Europe in the early- and mid-Middle Ages, as well as much later in eastern Europe and esp. Russia. But a different, far less egregious form in which the peasants were not bound to the land, existed in the later Middle Ages (which roughly correspond to where the Randland societies are). The development of the English notion of natural rights is bound up in the breakdown of that system. Life--a noble couldn't simply strike down a commoner (as is stated above, this hasn't taken hold in Tear yet, but has in Andor). Property--peasants could own property which they would then have rights to, e.g., protection against seizure of the property, protection against trespass, etc. (we've seen numerous examples of yeoman farmer types throughout the book, from Tam to all the farmers Mat and Rand hitched rides with on the way to Caemlyn to Almen at the beginning of the Towers of Midnight). Liberty--in its very original conception, it was the freedom to move about freely; which was of course hugely important in the breakdown of the old serf system as it allowed you to remove yourself from the land on which the lord had plenary power. There is plenty of evidence of the latter--roads clogged with travelers, inns filled with customers, etc. Most importantly, the rise of great cities (and Randland has far more than the Europe of the Middle Ages) is incompatible with a system that tied serfs to the land.

 

You fail to recognize one of the advantages of feudalism. It contained the kernal for one of the most important concepts to preventing government oppression--diffuse authority. Feudal lords were politically constrained by the monarch and vice versa.

 

More importantly, you miss that feudalism, because of its decentralized nature, most readily lends itself to a transition to a capitalist and democratic society. In fact, we have a prime example of a working democracy in Randland--the Two Rivers. They were able to develop self governance because Andor either could not or would not retain any sort of control over the region. Seanchan, on the other hand, maintains control over its empire with an iron fist. Per the WOT Wiki, more than 30,000 people were killed and 1.5 million made slaves after the major rebellion shortly before the Return. The 1.5 million number should dispell the notion that slavery is some sort of minor facet of the Seanchan society and that the average Seanchan lives a perfectly happy existence.

[gary0044187]

well argued agelmar.

[griz]

I think those visions are just a possibility. Since Avienda(sp) now knows about them...

 

I think the Seanchan will send scounts north of the tower and see the large force. I think they will then decide to strike a different target, Caemilyn. They show up in force and realize it is already under attack and they finally decide to help the side of the light. They do well for a time until the BT gets involved. On the verge of total annihilation, forces of the light show up and turn the tide.

 

That's my uneducated guess/theory :)

[moratcorlm]

You show a misunderstanding of feudalism and serfdom, particularly as they exist in the Randland societies at the time the books take place.

If I ever used the word "serfdom" or indeed "serf", please provide a quotation. Since I don't believe I have, I'll skip over your condescending digression on that topic.

You fail to recognize one of the advantages of feudalism. It contained the kernal for one of the most important concepts to preventing government oppression--diffuse authority. Feudal lords were politically constrained by the monarch and vice versa.

Advantages and preventing oppression for a handful of wealthy merchants, perhaps.

More importantly, you miss that feudalism, because of its decentralized nature, most readily lends itself to a transition to a capitalist and democratic society.

Thank you, Professor Marx. Is that what we were hoping for here? Are we really judging these countries by how well they might meet the Acquis Communautaire requirements for E.U. membership hundreds of years from now?

In fact, we have a prime example of a working democracy in Randland--the Two Rivers. They were able to develop self governance because Andor either could not or would not retain any sort of control over the region.

Sure, of course we do. That's a little like saying that the social organization of St. Kilda has a bearing on the historical evolution of Scottish government. It's not surprising that a bunch of tiny farming villages in the back end of nowhere, who don't appear to have landlords of any kind, have developed a somewhat communal way of interaction. But it's wishful thinking to imagine that the bucolic paradise designed to be the quickly-departed home of the heroes of an epic fantasy is emblematic of much in the greater world of that fantasy.

Seanchan, on the other hand, maintains control over its empire with an iron fist. Per the WOT Wiki, more than 30,000 people were killed and 1.5 million made slaves after the major rebellion shortly before the Return.

Well, no, what it does is suppress insurrection and treason. Which is a slightly different matter than controlling the loyal population with an iron fist, as the term is commonly understood.

The 1.5 million number should dispell the notion that slavery is some sort of minor facet of the Seanchan society and that the average Seanchan lives a perfectly happy existence.

For your first point, I never claimed it was; for your second point, it does nothing of the kind.

[Exy]

Every modern country has its secret police. Every single one.

Okay, when you're just making things up, or sharing paranoid delusions, I think it's past time to start ignoring your opinions.

[Dysaster]

Has anyone mentioned the fact that Tuon wants to choose another voice?

 

instead of a new voice, what about...a new truthspeaker. have selucia die/go back to voice/bodyguard and have

 

Setalle be the truthspeaker?

 

Setalle who is an ex-AS, whom Tuon lived/travelled with for weeks/months had great chats/arguments with....

 

 

who -potentially- could be healed by an ash'aman..

[Erunion]

Moratcorlm, as is shown consistently throughout the books, the average Da'covale, of which their are millions, has no rights whatsoever. They are frequently beaten (see Suroth's POV's please) and are clearly treated like animals. There are some, few "Hereditary Upper Servants" of the blood, who seem to have rights and are treated well. They are, by far, the minority. The average Da'covale is treated far worse than even Tear's peasantry. The Tairens, at least, could leave. They were treated poorly, but not horrifically so. The Cairheinian peasantry, as seen in TGH, is relatively well treated. They have the power to "play their own version of Daes'dae mar(spelling?)", they own property, they seem to live well and have money. This is far, far better than being Da'covale.

Seanchan peasantry don't seem to be much better off, certainly there are laws that apply to all peasants, but they are still treated as lesser beings than the blood, much like the Tairens are. They aren't taxed as badly as the Tairens were, and have more mobility, but they aren't allowed to look even minor nobility in the eyes, let alone speak to them! If they breach these conditions, which from the POV of the Seanchan we've seen, would be unthinkable, they would likely be beaten. For looking someone in the eyes. Da'covale were beaten for such minor offenses, and it seems that peasantry would be (conjecture from POV's).

While the Tairens were pretty crappy before Rand, they weren't as bad as the Seanchan, as you can clearly see if you read what they do.

Next, the "Listeners" and the "Seekers". They are absolutely disgusting. There is nothing at all like them in any modern, democratic society that I know of. Frankly, if any Canadian citizen was secretly followed, then arrested and tortured, it would be all over every single news station in the country, and the officers involved would spend a great deal of time in jail. Your idea of secret police in every modern society is absolute hogwash.

The seekers are brutal, evil and unparalleled in Randland. Yes, the questioners torture suspected Darkfriends, but their power is limited to Amadicia (and a few other places where they can bully the locals into compliance) and they can only torture suspected Darkfriends. The seekers can, will and do torture anyone they think can give them information, save the Empress. It is sick, and disgusting.

 

The only things the Seanchan do better than some Randlanders are these:

An equally applied justice system, if class based and very skewed.

Effective Bureaucracy.

Relative lack of bandits and robbers, crime is kept to a minimum. (Because finding someone who would dare risk committing a crime in Seanchan territory is a rarity.)

 

 

Seanchan society is far worse than your average Randland society, and is worse even than Tear or Amadicia. To say otherwise is blind folly. The Seanchan have a long, long way to go.

 

Also, on your point about the Borderlanders putting up with tyrants, a tyrant would have to be very careful in the borderlands, where 90% of all civilians are skilled, armed militia! While taxes may go up, and the nation be ruled poorly by a tyrant, it would be damn near impossible to oppress borderlanders. How would you start? Arrest the dude living in a mini-fortress with a crossbow? Maybe seize the property of a bunch of skilled halberdier? Good bloody luck.

For my references on Borderlanders, see "New Spring" where Lan and Moiraine ride through villages with fortress-inns, halberds racked beside every door, and people merrily dancing on the village green under the watchful gaze of the trolloc heads impaled on spikes they'd severed the day before.

 

So, uh... Yeah. Let's go oppress some Borderlanders!

[Ltsegarra]

@agelmar...as I stated the seeds of rebellion have already been planted in Seachan. By the very statistic you mention, Seanchan already was dealing with a rebellion from within even before setting out for "The Return". Even after the Seanchan landed, someone(presumably a DarkFriend) perhaps a revolutionary assassinated the Empress. Just cause you killed 30k and enslaved 1million, that's 1million people who hate your guts. The Seanchan will face Rebellion after Rebellion, culminating in the "final" rebellion where for whatever reason they lose the most powerful arm of their society and force, the "chained ones" AND handlers.

 

Howver, Jordan in his cyclical ways have given hope for a peaceful Seanchan. In Rand's Rhuidean vision, he "sees" guards wearing the typical garb of the Seanchan. Please excuse me it's been a while since I read those books. To me it seems as if the "bug-armored" guards and Aes Sedai were as one...a "magical and physical component". I think people lost the point of Jordan's whole circus events with Mat and Tuon. At the very least Jordan gave us an opportunity to see both sides as human beings with wants and fears. We know only in general terms why the Empress wants "The Return". We haven't been given a reason why the average Seanchan wants it. Are they truly conquering or fleeing from an even more bloodthirsty nation left behind.

[moratcorlm]

the average Da'covale [...] see Suroth's POV

You think Suroth is typical? Or that her slaves are?

The Tairens, at least, could leave. They were treated poorly, but not horrifically so.

You don't think regular rape is horrific?

They have the power to "play their own version of Daes'dae mar

This is not uncommon even in truly brutal slave systems in our world.

they own property, they seem to live well and have money. This is far, far better than being Da'covale.

Karede, for one, owns property and has money. Obviously he is one of the most powerful slaves in the Empire, but we do not know what the living conditions are for slaves between his elevated station and the lowly slave of a Darkfriend.

They aren't taxed as badly as the Tairens were, and have more mobility, but they aren't allowed to look even minor nobility in the eyes, let alone speak to them! If they breach these conditions, which from the POV of the Seanchan we've seen, would be unthinkable, they would likely be beaten. For looking someone in the eyes.

I didn't say the Seanchan were perfect or even good. Societies have all sorts of weird practices for displaying subservience.

Your idea of secret police in every modern society is absolute hogwash.

What exactly do you think CSIS is? Do you think Canada is not party to things like UKUSA surveillance? "Secret police" is not limited to describing organizations like the Stasi any more than "slavery" is limited to describing practices like those in the United States.

The seekers are brutal, evil and unparalleled in Randland.

This simply is not true. The practice of "putting to the question" suspects is widespread, and indeed many Aes Sedai are practiced in torture, and nobody bats an eye at it.

Also, on your point about the Borderlanders putting up with tyrants, a tyrant would have to be very careful in the borderlands, where 90% of all civilians are skilled, armed militia!

I'd take Faile's word that it has happened over your supposition that it would be impossible and therefore cannot have happened. Her reasoning is that armed revolt or civil war are unthinkable because of the Trolloc threat, so people must submit.

For my references on Borderlanders, see "New Spring"

Also interesting, on a different note, in New Spring is Lan's belief that Edeyn was trying to have him assassinated. This is very telling about exactly how much Borderlander honor means, and one of the foundations to my belief that their society is little more egalitarian than that of the South.

[gary0044187]

Howver, Jordan in his cyclical ways have given hope for a peaceful Seanchan. In Rand's Rhuidean vision, he "sees" guards wearing the typical garb of the Seanchan. Please excuse me it's been a while since I read those books. To me it seems as if the "bug-armored" guards and Aes Sedai were as one...a "magical and physical component". I think people lost the point of Jordan's whole circus events with Mat and Tuon. At the very least Jordan gave us an opportunity to see both sides as human beings with wants and fears. We know only in general terms why the Empress wants "The Return". We haven't been given a reason why the average Seanchan wants it. Are they truly conquering or fleeing from an even more bloodthirsty nation left behind.

these guards are soldiers from the War of the Shadow in the AoL, not a future where Seanchan have been included in AS armies. my assumption is that the style of armor was replicated by the armies of the Seanchan continent and adapted by the armies of Luthor Peandrag. While I am intrigued by your ideas, there is little to no evidence that the return is really a flight, so much as an attempt to reclaim the lands of their progenitor.

[blazetheearth]

Howver, Jordan in his cyclical ways have given hope for a peaceful Seanchan. In Rand's Rhuidean vision, he "sees" guards wearing the typical garb of the Seanchan. Please excuse me it's been a while since I read those books. To me it seems as if the "bug-armored" guards and Aes Sedai were as one...a "magical and physical component". I think people lost the point of Jordan's whole circus events with Mat and Tuon. At the very least Jordan gave us an opportunity to see both sides as human beings with wants and fears. We know only in general terms why the Empress wants "The Return". We haven't been given a reason why the average Seanchan wants it. Are they truly conquering or fleeing from an even more bloodthirsty nation left behind.

these guards are soldiers from the War of the Shadow in the AoL, not a future where Seanchan have been included in AS armies. my assumption is that the style of armor was replicated by the armies of the Seanchan continent and adapted by the armies of Luthor Peandrag. While I am intrigued by your ideas, there is little to no evidence that the return is really a flight, so much as an attempt to reclaim the lands of their progenitor.

 

It was during either Turak's or Suroth's PoV in one of the early books the the Return was Prophesied, and considering Toun's preoccupation with omens. I would think that her mother saw some sort of omen or some piece of the prophecy was fulfilled that caused her to believe that this was the correct time for the Return, and it turns out that she was right.

 

I'm really more curious about who is the DF in Fortuona's retinue. I know Graendal said she had someone close to her, but even discounting her testimony we already had evidence of a DF component there. Egwene comments at the end of TGS that NO BLACK AJAH we taken at all during the attack. I know that we see Katerine's reaction during the attack, but not her PoV. We don't know that none of the BA had some kind of warning. I don't mean "There's an attack coming!" Something more along the lines of "Gather into your hearts in these (basement) rooms, and wait for further instruction." Something like the last would keep them out of the way until the attack was well underway, then allow them to appear and "turn the tide" to push out the invaders and then the BA gets great kudo's (for individual members), which would explain why the Mistress of Novices walked in expecting to take command from a Sitter, and begin counter attacking. Not a perfect theory, but still a work in progress. And since we don't know how many people (among the Seanchan) knew about the attack, it really does not narrow the possibilities of who the DF is either.

[Rookie.Rider]

Prophecy aside, I would like to see Rand humiliate Fortuona and the Seanchan. On the same note, I was actually looking forward to Perrin humiliating and decimating the Whitecloaks, but unfortunately, that did not happen.

[Arc]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

 

very interesting thoughts, i also presume that the truthseeker who past the scene a couple of times before will have something to do with it.

He already mentioned a plot of AS to infiltrate the high ranks of the empire and return it to the state from before the conquest of Armies of Night in Winter's Heart. He'll probably already knows of the sul'dams ability to channel and will suspect Fortuona to openly seize power in name of the AS, or something similar, at a given moment. Delusional as he is, he'll think that the massive attack on WT is one of the final steps of the immense (imaginary) plot to bring the world under channelers rule once more by leading the armies of the Seanchan into a huge scale trap.

So he'll go running to galgan and maybe even Musenge or Karede to prevent it from happening. and so, somebody will leash Fortuona.

 

( oh, and he'll find himself so clever as to say: "let's spring that little trap anyway and continue the plans for the assault of WT, but we'll make gateways not into the TV directly, as the AS had planned, but on the fields of merrilor to the north of TV, nowbody'll suspect that!" by the time the attack would begin, Beslan will have freed Tuon so she can make her appearance at the fields merrilor and then realise she hasn't quite got the forces to defeat the armies already present. so she'll go like: "ok ok, dragon peace it is, for now." )

 

 

very hypothetical i know, but the Truthseeker has already proven to be very inventive to link all of his little discovered facts together. He should probably write a book about it, he's got the talent.

think about it :).

 

oh and i just trow it out there, but i suspect Musenge to be the DF in the empress retinue.

[Declan]

Prophecy aside, I would like to see Rand humiliate Fortuona and the Seanchan. On the same note, I was actually looking forward to Perrin humiliating and decimating the Whitecloaks, but unfortunately, that did not happen.

 

You also have to take into account that the Prophecy is almost never as straight forward as Rand will literally bow before the Crystal Throne or some such. Even if he did, the Seanchan on this side of the Aryth do not have the throne. Can someone pull up the quote from the prophecy that has the Dragon dealing with the Seanchan? I could be misremembering here.

 

I want to see some nasty bubble of evil just rampage in Ebou Dar, so that the Seanchan will realize they need to chill out with trying to conquer Randland, and just fight the Last Battle.

[blazetheearth]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

 

very interesting thoughts, i also presume that the truthseeker who past the scene a couple of times before will have something to do with it.

He already mentioned a plot of AS to infiltrate the high ranks of the empire and return it to the state from before the conquest of Armies of Night in Winter's Heart. He'll probably already knows of the sul'dams ability to channel and will suspect Fortuona to openly seize power in name of the AS, or something similar, at a given moment. Delusional as he is, he'll think that the massive attack on WT is one of the final steps of the immense (imaginary) plot to bring the world under channelers rule once more by leading the armies of the Seanchan into a huge scale trap.

So he'll go running to galgan and maybe even Musenge or Karede to prevent it from happening. and so, somebody will leash Fortuona.

 

( oh, and he'll find himself so clever as to say: "let's spring that little trap anyway and continue the plans for the assault of WT, but we'll make gateways not into the TV directly, as the AS had planned, but on the fields of merrilor to the north of TV, nowbody'll suspect that!" by the time the attack would begin, Beslan will have freed Tuon so she can make her appearance at the fields merrilor and then realise she hasn't quite got the forces to defeat the armies already present. so she'll go like: "ok ok, dragon peace it is, for now." )

 

 

very hypothetical i know, but the Truthseeker has already proven to be very inventive to link all of his little discovered facts together. He should probably write a book about it, he's got the talent.

think about it :).

 

oh and i just trow it out there, but i suspect Musenge to be the DF in the empress retinue.

 

I agree that even though the Seeker's (what was his name??? Morr or something like that) thoughts about a plot were wrong, I always did like him, and I would like to see more of him, but I got the feeling that once he sent Karede off to find Toun that his role was done. I hope he is brought back, but I doubt he will be, and I could see Musenge as the DF, but to me he sits too low (in the Seanchan hierarchy) for me to think that he will be important in the last book.

[Yates_]

Earlier in the thread, someone suggested that the Seanchan could, would, should get their arses handed to them at the WT. I will take it one step further to suggest that Rand will be the catalyst for that defeat. During the negotiations at the field, his head will snap towards the WT, and he will travel there with various leaders and elements of the armies.

 

At that point, Egwene and the rest of the armies' leaders will discover what it means to be the Dragon (Reborn). Their opposition will then cumble. During the AOL, the Armies of Light were united behind their leader. Only a dissention towards the end between the women and men (which I am convinced was the work of a Darkfriend which will come to light in the last book, possibly as a Prolog) shook that command. Before the LB, people will unite behind Rand as the Dragon. Confronted with the combined military might of Randland, united behind a force of nature like the Dragon, the Seanchan will realize that they face annihilation if they oppose the Dragon and the FOL.

[moratcorlm]

During the negotiations at the field, his head will snap towards the WT

Rand isn't a psychic, nor precognitive in any way that we know of.

dissention towards the end between the women and men (which I am convinced was the work of a Darkfriend

If a Darkfriend, a very unfortunate one, since Latra Posae pretty much saved humanity along with saidar.