Discuss Demandred

[Elend]

^

 

Demandred could use the Dragon Banner in his assault on the Seanchan and perhaps use Dark Asha'man littered throughout his troops. Mainly to drive a wedge between Rand and the Seanchan.

 

I just think it'd be a pretty effective use of the region Murandy is located in.

[Vexorian]

But if he attacks Fortuona from Murandy she would be well aware of it before hand since they have To'rakan scouts. So Fortuona would have ample time to prepare for battle. And we've seen the prowess of the Seanchan army when they're ready. So I would doubt Murandy being able to put Fortuona at the point of desperation to seek an alliance with Rand. But if Demandred were to come by sea where I doubt they would be scouting with as much efficiency. He would gain the element of surprise.

 

And is an army from Murandy going to fight alongside Ashaman? To their knowledge Murandy has no ties with Rand. Even if Demandred as King tells them they are, as soon as Rand shows up with his army to attack, the Murandy army is going to start to scratch their heads...

[Elend]

Not if its during the conference on the Fields of Merrilor and/or when the Seanchan are using their newfound ability to Travel and attack the White Tower. That'll be tying up a good chunk of both forces. Besides, the Seanchan have lost significant numbers over the last few books. I think I've seen estimates of around 350k or maybe a bit more for their forces on the mainland. Whereas Murandy can likely field a number similar to the other nations.

 

As far as an alliance goes its not difficult to convince someone its happened. Its not a secret that there is bad blood between the Seanchan and Rand. What is a secret is the possible alliance between them. I doubt anyone in Murandy would seriously doubt a secret alliance to attack the Seanchan and that he gave a few Asha'man for the purpose of this.

 

I don't really think the theory regarding Seanchan is wrong, I just think what little we've seen really makes it difficult logistically. What little we know says that Shara is closer to Seanchan than Randland is, for instance (I believe).

 

I'd not be opposed to a Grand Unified Theory of Demandred.

[mbuehner]

 

 

Yeah. Who'd wanna actually lead troops that can be lead in an effective manner that are in a geographically advantageous position as opposed to massive hordes that can't be trained or lead very well?

 

Congrats, you just managed to explain why the War of Power couldn't have happened. Just what kind of armies do you think Demandred and Sammael were leading? Wait, I know... Murandians. See Murandy is far older than we thought and its the lynchpin to the Shadow's warplans since the Bore was drilled. Proof? Demandred would never be wasted leading shadowspawn armies (history as we know it notwithstanding), hence he must have had human armies, and since we have been told so little of Murandy in that time frame, it MUST be Murandy. QED.

 

I think the much simpler solution than any of these is that Demandred has been marshaling the shadowspan forces and dread lords in the blight, which (ahem, doubts to the above notwithstanding) would be a critical post for the Shadows war plans. He's hidden in plain sight, exactly where you would expect to find the forsaken's best general, with its massive armies.

[Elend]

^

 

The Collapse put a decent chunk of humanity on the Shadow's side and they began the War of Power with a rather potent surprise attack. References throughout the series make it very clear they made "conversion" a priority and likely had ways of making it stick. Its not hard to believe they used humans as opposed to Trollocs, as in the current age the Dark One uses what he can... the era of the Collapse did not know the Shadow's true nature, making it somewhat easier to corrupt I'd bet.

 

ETA: On that note I'm bowing out of this before it becomes a flame-war. I've made my case. And the entire Murandy theory is likely a response to "If he's in the Blight that'll be the lamest thing ever" regarding Demandred. I know that's why I don't want to believe that.

 

ETA2: I edited for readability and tone.

[mbuehner]

Well much of what you are suggesting hinges on the idea that shadowspawn weren't important parts of the shadow armies. All the evidence I've ever seen suggests they were in fact the overwhelming majority. Cities in the war of power were forced to become darkfriends? Well how were those cities conquered in the first place? I have seen no evidence that large armies of darkfriends were the shadows main forces.

 

And what about the Trolloc Wars? The idea that huge forces of trollocs weren't capable of being marshaled into effective campaigns and wars doesn't stand up. To the contrary we've seen it time and time again, even in 'modern times'. What about the siege of Maradon? Siege engines throwing shadowspawn etc?

 

I think there is overwhelming evidence that not only is shadowspawn the vast majority of shadow armies and always have been, but that they can be used effectively under the leadership of Fades and dreadlords. Even moreso under a great general such as Demandred.

 

Once you accept that the idea that the forces under some minor nation would be a useful place for a great general falls apart. Such a force is simply trivial in the grand scheme of the Shadow armies.

[bysomy]

^

Unless Demandred rigs his followers with AoL time bombs made with TP and scaters them throughout the forces of the light...

[Muad Cheade]

Congrats, you just managed to explain why the War of Power couldn't have happened. Just what kind of armies do you think Demandred and Sammael were leading? Wait, I know... Murandians. See Murandy is far older than we thought and its the lynchpin to the Shadow's warplans since the Bore was drilled. Proof? Demandred would never be wasted leading shadowspawn armies (history as we know it notwithstanding), hence he must have had human armies, and since we have been told so little of Murandy in that time frame, it MUST be Murandy. QED.

 

I think the much simpler solution than any of these is that Demandred has been marshaling the shadowspan forces and dread lords in the blight, which (ahem, doubts to the above notwithstanding) would be a critical post for the Shadows war plans. He's hidden in plain sight, exactly where you would expect to find the forsaken's best general, with its massive armies.

Civility please, civility please. I always wanted to say that. Anyways. All we are doing is speculating on his whereabouts. Demandred, Sammael and the others did command Shadowspawn in addition to darkfriend troops in the War of Power. However, it is very unlikely he is in the Blight.

 

1). That seems to be Moridin's base of operations, as evidenced by his keep deep in the Blight.

2). It wouldn't make sense as Demandred himself said, "My rule is secure." Shadowspawn have but one ruler, the Great Lord, so there would be no need for him to consolidate power. Murandy, Seanchan and Shara are all locations where that quotation fits the most.

 

 

Well much of what you are suggesting hinges on the idea that shadowspawn weren't important parts of the shadow armies. All the evidence I've ever seen suggests they were in fact the overwhelming majority. Cities in the war of power were forced to become darkfriends? Well how were those cities conquered in the first place? I have seen no evidence that large armies of darkfriends were the shadows main forces.

 

And what about the Trolloc Wars? The idea that huge forces of trollocs weren't capable of being marshaled into effective campaigns and wars doesn't stand up. To the contrary we've seen it time and time again, even in 'modern times'. What about the siege of Maradon? Siege engines throwing shadowspawn etc?

 

I think there is overwhelming evidence that not only is shadowspawn the vast majority of shadow armies and always have been, but that they can be used effectively under the leadership of Fades and dreadlords. Even moreso under a great general such as Demandred.

The truth.

 

Once you accept that the idea that the forces under some minor nation would be a useful place for a great general falls apart. Such a force is simply trivial in the grand scheme of the Shadow armies.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Look at the Band. It most likely numbers less than Murandy's current army yet it has defeated two and three times it's number. Never underestimate the importance of good generalship. Granted the Band also has the edge technologically but that's besides the point. Also look at the campaign Ituralde under took against the Seanchan.

 

While Murandy is situated strategically, if Demandred is king/ruler there, he would need channelers to get him close to the major control centers: Ebou Dar, Illian Caemyln and Tear. He can't move "normally" as the Seanchan have increased patrols since Mat's campaign and the Trolloc attack on Tylee's forces (They did move General Chisen's army from the Murandy border to attempt to catch Mat, so who knows). The majority of Illian's troops are on the border to prevent invasion from the Seanchan. Tear, while seemingly defenseless, is a long journey. Caemlyn is relatively close but Elayne beefed up the borders after she learned of the Shadow's impending invasion.

[mbuehner]

I suspect part of Demandred's responsibilities (perhaps the most important part) are overseeing Taim and culling new dreadlords. Integrating the dreadlords with the shadowspawn army is a nontrivial enterprise. It happened in the Trolloc Wars and the timeframe here is much compressed. That has him moving between the BT and the Blight, and would account for 'his rule' being secure (the black tower). We have no other evidence of other Forsaken interacting and giving marching orders to darkfriend Ashaman, so I think its pretty good bet that Demandred has some role with them. Assembling an army integrated with channelers and shadowspawn would require this kind of duel attention.

[mbuehner]

 

Once you accept that the idea that the forces under some minor nation would be a useful place for a great general falls apart. Such a force is simply trivial in the grand scheme of the Shadow armies.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Look at the Band. It most likely numbers less than Murandy's current army yet it has defeated two and three times it's number. Never underestimate the importance of good generalship. Granted the Band also has the edge technologically but that's besides the point. Also look at the campaign Ituralde under took against the Seanchan.

 

That is true, but its a lot easier to contemplate if you have a few extra great generals to spare. The light side has many, and many places to defend. The Shadow doesn't have a single major general left from the AOL aside from Demandred, and really nobody that we know of from this age. Ishmael wasnt a field commander and there is no reason to believe he is now- particuarly given what Rand has said about not expecting to be in the trenches. Ishmael will surely be present for the confrontation with the DO, not leading armies he has no gift at leading. So who does that lead to coordinate all the masses of shadowspawn armies in the field? I'd say just Demandred, and that doesn't leave much time to be mucking around with 50,000 troops in Murandy, its a massive undertaking coordinating millions of Trollocs and their dreadlords. To date the Shadow has been very deliberate about unleashing armies at specific times and places (Maradon, the siege towers), this is a coordinated operation, not simply millions of Trollocs blindly flooding the Borderlands. So who is doing the coordinating?

[Muad Cheade]

I suspect part of Demandred's responsibilities (perhaps the most important part) are overseeing Taim and culling new dreadlords. Integrating the dreadlords with the shadowspawn army is a nontrivial enterprise. It happened in the Trolloc Wars and the timeframe here is much compressed. That has him moving between the BT and the Blight, and would account for 'his rule' being secure (the black tower). We have no other evidence of other Forsaken interacting and giving marching orders to darkfriend Ashaman, so I think its pretty good bet that Demandred has some role with them. Assembling an army integrated with channelers and shadowspawn would require this kind of duel attention.

You do have a pretty good point there. However, that would imply that he struggled with Taim for control of the Black Tower, due to the fact that Taim has seemingly been the leader and dominant force in the BT. Demandred recently "securing his rule" in the Black Tower would imply he did away with Taim and is now posing as him, something that is certainly not true or Taim once walked in the Light or atleast wasn't a Darkfriend, and Demandred 13x13'd him. The latter one would make sense as there seems to be a rash of 13x13'd Asha'man recently.

 

 

That is true, but its a lot easier to contemplate if you have a few extra great generals to spare. The light side has many, and many places to defend. The Shadow doesn't have a single major general left from the AOL aside from Demandred, and really nobody that we know of from this age. Ishmael wasnt a field commander and there is no reason to believe he is now- particuarly given what Rand has said about not expecting to be in the trenches. Ishmael will surely be present for the confrontation with the DO, not leading armies he has no gift at leading. So who does that lead to coordinate all the masses of shadowspawn armies in the field? I'd say just Demandred, and that doesn't leave much time to be mucking around with 50,000 troops in Murandy, its a massive undertaking coordinating millions of Trollocs and their dreadlords. To date the Shadow has been very deliberate about unleashing armies at specific times and places (Maradon, the siege towers), this is a coordinated operation, not simply millions of Trollocs blindly flooding the Borderlands. So who is doing the coordinating?

Yeah. I agree. Ishamael seemed to be more of the overall strategist, while Demandred, Sammael, and the others carried out the actual dirty work. However, Moridin told the other Chosen of the 100,000 Trollocs that attacked Rand in Tear which seems to imply that he is the one assembling and organizing the Shadowspawn in the Blight since he is the one who bought it up. However, Moridin could've recently delegated those responsibilities to Demandred.

[mbuehner]

Taim 13x13d, now that's an interesting thought. One of the things thats bugged me is Taim giving that seal to Rand and then the Dark going on a rampage trying to find them. Unless the rampage was a cover. Was there ever a forsaken POV that mentioned finding and breaking the seals as being important? Taim having started good and being turned (wouldn't take much to make him a nasty piece of work either) would be a fascinating twist. Demandred being the 13x13er in chief would certainly play into his love of proxies. And Taim does seem to have gotten a slimy air about him, I mean he's always been an arrogant jerk, but now he's a total scumbag. It would have to have happened fairly early on.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

Well much of what you are suggesting hinges on the idea that shadowspawn weren't important parts of the shadow armies. All the evidence I've ever seen suggests they were in fact the overwhelming majority. Cities in the war of power were forced to become darkfriends? Well how were those cities conquered in the first place? I have seen no evidence that large armies of darkfriends were the shadows main forces.

Aginor destroyed millions of Second Age citizens creating the trollocs - probably by mutating them and with genetic experimentation. Do you think he did so before the war of power broke out? If so, then the populace would've been quite relaxed about the whole thing, wouldn't you say? Just letting him get on with his little experiments.

 

The Shadow seduced humanity first. People started to fight. Trollocs came later. The trolloc wars came much later even than that.

 

Once you accept that the idea that the forces under some minor nation would be a useful place for a great general falls apart. Such a force is simply trivial in the grand scheme of the Shadow armies.

That would be that 'shadow army' unified under general, yes?

 

I see...

[Muad Cheade]

Taim 13x13d, now that's an interesting thought. One of the things thats bugged me is Taim giving that seal to Rand and then the Dark going on a rampage trying to find them. Unless the rampage was a cover. Was there ever a forsaken POV that mentioned finding and breaking the seals as being important? Taim having started good and being turned (wouldn't take much to make him a nasty piece of work either) would be a fascinating twist. Demandred being the 13x13er in chief would certainly play into his love of proxies. And Taim does seem to have gotten a slimy air about him, I mean he's always been an arrogant jerk, but now he's a total scumbag. It would have to have happened fairly early on.

Exactly. That has always bugged me as well. I think in that earlier (LoC or so), he wasn't Shadow-aligned, but was looking out for his own interests.

 

Him giving Rand the seal and the Shadow attempting to kill Bashere and Dobraine to get them back makes no sense if he was a darkfriend at that point. It would make sense if Moridin gave Demandred the dreamspike to aid in start of the 13x13 process just as he did Graendal.

 

I don't think there was a Forsaken pov of that but we learned enough from Moiraine that the seals breaking and becoming frail was bad.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

I don't think there was a Forsaken pov of that but we learned enough from Moiraine that the seals breaking and becoming frail was bad.

Not anymore, it would seem. ;)

[mbuehner]

Well much of what you are suggesting hinges on the idea that shadowspawn weren't important parts of the shadow armies. All the evidence I've ever seen suggests they were in fact the overwhelming majority. Cities in the war of power were forced to become darkfriends? Well how were those cities conquered in the first place? I have seen no evidence that large armies of darkfriends were the shadows main forces.

Aginor destroyed millions of Second Age citizens creating the trollocs - probably by mutating them and with genetic experimentation. Do you think he did so before the war of power broke out? If so, then the populace would've been quite relaxed about the whole thing, wouldn't you say? Just letting him get on with his little experiments.

 

The Shadow seduced humanity first. People started to fight. Trollocs came later. The trolloc wars came much later even than that.

 

The question was whether Trollocs could be used a soldiers effectively, and the answer is an overwhelming YES, when under the control of Myddraal and Dreadlords. They were used so in both the War of Power and later the Trolloc Wars. That one we know, because they were called the Trolloc Wars. Trolloc armies led by Dreadlords engaged in complex activities like besieging Tar Valon (several times) and multi-day battles forcing river crossings as in the fall of Manetheren. Are they as flexible and intelligent as regular soldiers? Of course not, but they are stronger and in far greater numbers, meaning when well directed they can be a nightmare. My ultimate point is that somebody needs to do that leading, commanding where and when and how the armies should strike. The Shadow's best remaining general is Demandred. Is he more useful integrating Dreadlords and organizing the vast shadowspawn armies (to do things like send flights of Draghkar disguised as catapulted corpses, or have channelers blast down gates at key moments), or putzing around with an army of perhaps 50,000 humans hoping they don't get wise to being tools of the DO?

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

 

The question was whether Trollocs could be used a soldiers effectively, and the answer is an overwhelming YES

No, the 'question' (actually a suggestion, by you) was:

Well much of what you are suggesting hinges on the idea that shadowspawn weren't important parts of the shadow armies when under the control of Myddraal and Dreadlords

 

... and here, the word 'important' is key because they only became important once they were created. Surely this is logical to you?

 

My ultimate point is that somebody needs to do that leading, commanding where and when and how the armies should strike. The Shadow's best remaining general is Demandred.

Pure speculation.

 

Is he more useful integrating Dreadlords and organizing the vast shadowspawn armies (to do things like send flights of Draghkar disguised as catapulted corpses, or have channelers blast down gates at key moments), or putzing around with an army of perhaps 50,000 humans hoping they don't get wise to being tools of the DO?

He's probably most useful to the Shadow by getting Rand to join with it, or by somehow or other assuring the victory of the shadow over the light. Whether that involves leading armies or not is uncertain.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Congrats, you just managed to explain why the War of Power couldn't have happened. Just what kind of armies do you think Demandred and Sammael were leading? Wait, I know... Murandians. See Murandy is far older than we thought and its the lynchpin to the Shadow's warplans since the Bore was drilled. Proof? Demandred would never be wasted leading shadowspawn armies (history as we know it notwithstanding), hence he must have had human armies, and since we have been told so little of Murandy in that time frame, it MUST be Murandy. QED.

 

I think the much simpler solution than any of these is that Demandred has been marshaling the shadowspan forces and dread lords in the blight, which (ahem, doubts to the above notwithstanding) would be a critical post for the Shadows war plans. He's hidden in plain sight, exactly where you would expect to find the forsaken's best general, with its massive armies.

Civility please, civility please. I always wanted to say that. Anyways. All we are doing is speculating on his whereabouts. Demandred, Sammael and the others did command Shadowspawn in addition to darkfriend troops in the War of Power. However, it is very unlikely he is in the Blight.

 

1). That seems to be Moridin's base of operations, as evidenced by his keep deep in the Blight.

2). It wouldn't make sense as Demandred himself said, "My rule is secure." Shadowspawn have but one ruler, the Great Lord, so there would be no need for him to consolidate power. Murandy, Seanchan and Shara are all locations where that quotation fits the most.

 

 

Yeah pretty much this. It is clear from tGS prologue that Moridin is gathering the Blight for war. And of course the whole "my rule is secure" as you say.

 

Quote

My ultimate point is that somebody needs to do that leading, commanding where and when and how the armies should strike. The Shadow's best remaining general is Demandred.

 

Pure speculation.

 

Quote

Is he more useful integrating Dreadlords and organizing the vast shadowspawn armies (to do things like send flights of Draghkar disguised as catapulted corpses, or have channelers blast down gates at key moments), or putzing around with an army of perhaps 50,000 humans hoping they don't get wise to being tools of the DO?

 

He's probably most useful to the Shadow by getting Rand to join with it, or by somehow or other assuring the victory of the shadow over the light. Whether that involves leading armies or not is uncertain.

 

You clearly have no idea about Demandred at all. Demandred IS the Shadow's best general. He was famed for being a brilliant general in the War of Power. Demandred was second only to Lews Therin in every aspect. I suggest you read the BWB and look up Demandred. Moridin is the one that fights the phycological battle with Rand. Ishmael (who is Moridin) was a philosopher, theologist etc... Everything we have on Demandred says two things. He was the second greatest man of the age, just below LTT. (See BWB and Graendal saying Demandred would have been the greatest if not for LTT) and that he was a military genius.

 

So I have no idea where you are getting this "speculation" thing from. It is pretty clear to everyone that Demandred is the shadow's highest general. You can bet your life that Demandred is leading armies. Thats what he does. So really, I suggest you have a look at Demandred's profile. Not to be abrasive, just saying that if you do not know his main thing is being a General, you shouldnt really be posting about him. Its like posting about Rand without knowing he is the Dragon, you need to know the information first to validate anything.

 

Brandon's comment (see previous posts, its in here a million times) saying that "as far as the Shadow is concerned, Demandred is their biggest player," is most obviously refering to him leading armies and being the most descructive to the Light. Because, Moridin, in all respects, seems to be the most dangerous to Rand personally. Its hard to see Demandred becomming a bigger threat to Rand that Moridin is, being the Nae'blis and acess to the TP and all.

 

To be clear, I believe their are two wars being fought here. One with Rand v the DO. Ie, Rand v Moridin etc.. Psycological warfare.

The second being actual physical war. Trollocs and the like attacking and destroying crap.

 

Nobody expects Rand to actually be leading the armies of light right? Rand's fight is at Shayol Ghul breaking and re-sealing the bore etc... Agreed?

 

Mat, Bashere, Ituralde etc... will be the ones actually fighting the battles. Again, Agreed?

 

Anyway, to get to the point, this is the same with Moridin and Demandred.

 

Moridin will be fighting against Rand with the whole sealing and breaking the seals etc..

 

While Demandred will be the Shadow's armies biggest player, leading their forces from Murandy (or wherever he is).

 

The point being, Demandred = biggest threat as a General with armies.

[Ananta]

 

You clearly have no idea about Demandred at all. Demandred IS the Shadow's best general. He was famed for being a brilliant general in the War of Power. Demandred was second only to Lews Therin in every aspect. I suggest you read the BWB and look up Demandred. Moridin is the one that fights the phycological battle with Rand. Ishmael (who is Moridin) was a philosopher, theologist etc... Everything we have on Demandred says two things. He was the second greatest man of the age, just below LTT. (See BWB and Graendal saying Demandred would have been the greatest if not for LTT) and that he was a military genius.

 

So I have no idea where you are getting this "speculation" thing from. It is pretty clear to everyone that Demandred is the shadow's highest general. You can bet your life that Demandred is leading armies. Thats what he does. So really, I suggest you have a look at Demandred's profile. Not to be abrasive, just saying that if you do not know his main thing is being a General, you shouldnt really be posting about him. Its like posting about Rand without knowing he is the Dragon, you need to know the information first to validate anything.

 

Brandon's comment (see previous posts, its in here a million times) saying that "as far as the Shadow is concerned, Demandred is their biggest player," is most obviously refering to him leading armies and being the most descructive to the Light. Because, Moridin, in all respects, seems to be the most dangerous to Rand personally. Its hard to see Demandred becomming a bigger threat to Rand that Moridin is, being the Nae'blis and acess to the TP and all.

 

To be clear, I believe their are two wars being fought here. One with Rand v the DO. Ie, Rand v Moridin etc.. Psycological warfare.

The second being actual physical war. Trollocs and the like attacking and destroying crap.

 

Nobody expects Rand to actually be leading the armies of light right? Rand's fight is at Shayol Ghul breaking and re-sealing the bore etc... Agreed?

 

Mat, Bashere, Ituralde etc... will be the ones actually fighting the battles. Again, Agreed?

 

Anyway, to get to the point, this is the same with Moridin and Demandred.

 

Moridin will be fighting against Rand with the whole sealing and breaking the seals etc..

 

While Demandred will be the Shadow's armies biggest player, leading their forces from Murandy (or wherever he is).

 

The point being, Demandred = biggest threat as a General with armies.

 

 

 

I think Rand should be leading some armies, though. Or at least teach Itaralde & co some tricks. I mean LTT's the dude who was greatest General during AoL. And during AoL, OP was used to the fullest during war. These "new-age" generals, Ituralde etc, don't know what Asha'man/Aes Sedai are actually capable of, Rand knows. So Rand should teach them a trick or two on how to use OP to the fullest in war.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

You clearly have no idea about Demandred at all. Demandred IS the Shadow's best general.

After accusing me of having no idea what I'm talking about' date=' you went on to speculate quite a lot about what you think is happening / will happen.

 

It is pretty clear ... is most obviously refering to... Moridin, in all respects, seems... Its hard to see Demandred becomming a bigger threat to Rand that Moridin is... I believe their are two wars being fought here... Agreed?... Agreed?...

Let your puddle of water settle so you can see through all the mud.

 

Moridin will be fighting against Rand with the whole sealing and breaking the seals etc..

 

While Demandred will be the Shadow's armies biggest player, leading their forces from Murandy (or wherever he is)

Should you prove to be correct on both counts, then I will accept this scenario.

 

I see many ways that people we have already met in the books, Demandred or not, may be exceptional Generals for the shadow. I responded to the statement: 'the Shadow's best remaining general is Demandred'. Define 'best': is he the most skilled? Does he have the biggest armies? Or will a small, effective strike seemingly from nowhere assist the shadow at an important time, effectively humiliating Demandred and his armies, re-defining your current concept of what makes a general great?

 

Must I explain further how this statement is speculative?

[Barid Bel Medar]

You clearly have no idea about Demandred at all. Demandred IS the Shadow's best general.

After accusing me of having no idea what I'm talking about' date=' you went on to speculate quite a lot about what you think is happening / will happen.

 

It is pretty clear ... is most obviously refering to... Moridin, in all respects, seems... Its hard to see Demandred becomming a bigger threat to Rand that Moridin is... I believe their are two wars being fought here... Agreed?... Agreed?...

Let your puddle of water settle so you can see through all the mud.

 

Moridin will be fighting against Rand with the whole sealing and breaking the seals etc..

 

While Demandred will be the Shadow's armies biggest player, leading their forces from Murandy (or wherever he is)

Should you prove to be correct on both counts, then I will accept this scenario.

 

I see many ways that people we have already met in the books, Demandred or not, may be exceptional Generals for the shadow. I responded to the statement: 'the Shadow's best remaining general is Demandred'. Define 'best': is he the most skilled? Does he have the biggest armies? Or will a small, effective strike seemingly from nowhere assist the shadow at an important time, effectively humiliating Demandred and his armies?

 

Must I explain further how this statement is speculative?

 

You are missing the point...

 

He's probably most useful to the Shadow by getting Rand to join with it, or by somehow or other assuring the victory of the shadow over the light. Whether that involves leading armies or not is uncertain.

 

From this you clearly know nothing about Demandred. If you did, you would know that he is known as one of the greatest Generals.

 

I have no idea what your on about with speculation.

 

OF course it is. The book hasnt come out yet, saying it is speculation is pointless.

 

I am saying that you need to read up on the character before you post, because it says in the BWB he was second only to LTT. The best of Shadows Generals.

 

Saying he may not be involved in leading armies is simply foolish.

 

Also, there is the whole "My rule is secure. I gather for war. I will be ready" bit.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

I have no idea what your on about with speculation.

 

OF course it is. The book hasnt come out yet, saying it is speculation is pointless

It is speculation. Saying it is so reminds us of that fact. I find it amusing that you think it's pointless to mention it whilst struggling to fathom it at the same time.

 

You jumped to a conclusion: that I know nothing about Demandred. We can speculate that Demandred will lead armies but until we know for sure, it's speculation.

 

I'm so glad you were able to come around to my way of seeing it, though it took a little patience from my side.

 

Now then: on to more important things.

[mbuehner]

Everything is based on speculation. Obviously. But there is speculation with a strong grounding in established facts (Demandred is known for his generaling skills, Ishmael never led armies in the field, therefore Demandred is likely generalling the Shadow's armies) and speculation based on pure circumstance (Winning Rand over to the Dark is the highest goal, therefore it must be Demandred's goal, despite his constant declarations that he will see Rand dead and kill anyone that takes that from him).

 

And then there is simple logic- generals ARE required to lead armies to any effect, shadowspawn armies in particular. This is not speculation at all. Somebody must lead them and from the information we have, Demandred is the only name we know that led vast armies in the field in the War of Power (in fact on both sides), and indeed was considered a brilliant general. Suggesting that the Dark has other generals of equal caliber they have somehow culled that we have never heard of (certainly not listed as the 5 great captains) IS pure speculation. There is no reason to believe that at all.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

Oh, but you assumed that I don't in fact believe that Demandred will lead an army? Why would you do a thing like that?

 

Surely, what I believe and what I know to be speculation can be two seperate things?

 

edit: well, that was an answer to Barid before he deleted his post.

 

Demandred is the only name we know that led vast armies in the field in the War of Power (in fact on both sides), and indeed was considered a brilliant general. Suggesting that the Dark has other generals of equal caliber they have somehow culled that we have never heard of (certainly not listed as the 5 great captains) IS pure speculation. There is no reason to believe that at all.

A well-formed point; and well-taken - but, again, my point was:

'Define 'best': is he the most skilled? Does he have the biggest armies? Or will a small, effective strike seemingly from nowhere assist the shadow at an important time, effectively humiliating Demandred and his armies?

 

Must I explain further how this statement is speculative?'

 

This is really a silly debate, where you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes without realising that we're all pretty much the same shape here.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Everything is based on speculation. Obviously. But there is speculation with a strong grounding in established facts (Demandred is known for his generaling skills, Ishmael never led armies in the field, therefore Demandred is likely generalling the Shadow's armies) and speculation based on pure circumstance (Winning Rand over to the Dark is the highest goal, therefore it must be Demandred's goal, despite his constant declarations that he will see Rand dead and kill anyone that takes that from him).

 

And then there is simple logic- generals ARE required to lead armies to any effect, shadowspawn armies in particular. This is not speculation at all. Somebody must lead them and from the information we have, Demandred is the only name we know that led vast armies in the field in the War of Power (in fact on both sides), and indeed was considered a brilliant general. Suggesting that the Dark has other generals of equal caliber they have somehow culled that we have never heard of (certainly not listed as the 5 great captains) IS pure speculation. There is no reason to believe that at all.

 

Indeed, my point. Even though it hasnt been said 200 times in direct quote. its just common sense. and if you dont know that, then clearly you dont know much about the character Demandred, thats all I was saying.