Discuss Demandred

[gambril]

Demandrad has been using proxies to stay hidden this whole time. He's not impersonating anyone. Somewhere in one of those Forsaken meetings he sneered at all the other Forsaken who were using disguises and such. Taim is Demandrads proxy for instance. I think it's pretty obvious with a little thinking on it that the Black Tower and Caemlyn is Demandrads planned headquarters for the Last Battle. Once Taim has the Black Tower secure - ie: forcibly turning all lightsiders via 13x13 to the shadow, Demandrad will arrive. This is one of the reasons also why the Dreamspike is there.

 

Another clue that is easily missed that gives credence to this is from Androl's POV in TOM of some of those guys arriving at the Black Tower already being fully trained, full Ash'aman. This is just Demandrad moving his dreadlords into position now that he's started the opening punches of the Last Battle. After he secures Caemlyn, he will arrive and extend the Dreamspike to cover Caemlyn and the Light is going to be screwed.

 

Also remember when Rand arrived in Tear and Min had all those visions of half the population of Tear dying? This is when Rand told Darlin to feed some orphan boy and give him money and some such. All these people are going to die because like Caemlyn, Demandrad has also sent his forces through waygates and such into Tear, Caeirhen and Illian. Above all else, to Demandrad the most important thing is to one-up Lews Therin and he will accomplish this by taking over all the cities Lews Therin 'conquered'. It's Demandrads way of slapping Lews Therin in the face :).

 

One last thing, is what Demandrad did with the Black Tower and Taim is use it as way to OPENLY recruit dreadlords for the Last Battle. It's very simple really. Only a fraction of the potential dreadlords were actually sent to the Black Tower - Taim and his 100 dreadlords. The rest were escorted to somewhere else, probably the Blight or some such (the red veiled Aiel for instance) and were trained by Demandrad and his other leutinents. Demandrad only needed enough dreadlords at the Black Tower with Taim for security. Now that the Last Battle's actually started and they're 13 x 13 channeler's to the shadow in droves, Demandrad has actually done well. This is why him and Dark One are so happy at the end of Lord of Chaos. Rand gave Demandrad a way to openly recruit dreadlords via his proxy Taim lol. Moridin's headquarters is the Blight, while Demandrads is the Black Tower :).

[johthohar]

I had a kinda whacky theory about Demandred's identity but then I came across a quote from RJ that I'd read a while back stating that he had not been seen on screen as any other character pre-KoD. So, that got shot down and I won't share it now. Anyway, I'm also of the opinion that the Demandred reveal is going to be a disappointment. But that's really our (the fans') fault anyway. We've built it up to much. Kinda like the who killed Asmodean thing. If I had just read through the series and never gotten on a fan site then I wouldn't have been so disappointed by the whole Graendal offing Asmodean thing. It really wasn't a big deal to me until I saw all the hype online. I think the thing with Demandred is going to be similar. Roedran is the most likely candidate which would be a let down cause I keep wanting it to be a major primary or secondary character that's been hiding among the light all along. I almost agree with Gambril that he is likely using proxies and hasn't disguised himself at all. But I'm starting to think he has little, if anything, to do with the Black Tower. That is most likely Moridin's work.

[Elan Tedronai]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

[Agelmar]

The arguments on here regarding the various possibilities have been excellent, and none of those have been dispositive. We just don't have enough information right now. Some combination of all of the above is certainly possible as well. I do feel, though, that one option has been given short shrift--an alternate Portal Stone world. Why? Bear with me.

 

Trollocs have broken through the Borderlands only three times since the Breaking: (1) during the Trolloc Wars; (2) during Artur Hawkwing's reign (he won his key victory somewhere between Shienar and Carhien; and (3) during Towers of Midnight (Kandor has fallen, and Arafel may have as well). We have been given no indication in the books that the first two were due to anything other than overpowering numbers. Even with the bulk of the Borderlander armies away, we know that hundreds of thousands of Trollocs invaded Saldea (see the Ituralde defense of Maradon); likely hundreds of thousands of Trollocs invaded Kandor (enough to overrun the country in the course of a couple weeks at the most); presumably a similarly large invading Arafel (further support is given by Alanna rushing off in response to Verin's letter); and at least 150,000 poised to invade Shienar (delayed by Lan at Tarwin's Gap; based on the assault on Maradon, there may be waves ahead of or behind the horde at Tarwin's Gap). There was also a large army of Trolloc's available to spring the trap on Perrin and another (presumably at least reasonably large) force to attack Caemlyn. What separates those three periods from the rest?

 

During each, Ishmael was in one of his cycles of freedom. There is a valid argument that his leadership was necessary to properly marshal Trollocs for a coordinated assault, but there is another, perhaps more important, factor that is not mutually exclusive. Trollocs are organic creatures--they have to eat to live. The Blight's name is descriptive--it's dangerous and it can provide only so much food. Any non-Blighted land within or north of the Blight is in an extremely frigid climate that would severely limit crop production. Unlike Tolkien's Mordor, the Blight has no massive bread basket behind it. Perhaps there is a temperate "bubble" within the Blight, but we have seen no evidence that the Dark One can exert that kind of positive influence. Raids into the Borderlands are far too limited to serve as a means of support for the Trolloc hordes (outside of providing raw material for Myrddraal swords).

 

So it seems pretty clear that the Blight can support only a limited number of Trollocs and that number is low enough to allow the Borderlands to serve as an effective buffer for the rest of Randland. So, for each period in which the Shadow has broken through the Borderlands, there needed have have been a massive increase in the Trolloc population. Again, Trollocs are organic creatures, so they have to reproduce in the usual fashion. Even assuming high fertility and a short "childhood," the 40 year Ishmael window is an extremely short time to increase the overall population by the multiple necessary. There is a larger problem of feeding all of those young Trollocs until ready. There pretty much has to be another option.

 

Hence we turn to the Portal Stones. We've seen that the Forsaken understand Portal Stones far better than the present-day channelers (See Lanfear's abduction of Rand in The Great Hunt and Graendal's trap for Perrin in Towers of Midnight). They were shown to be quite effective at moving large numbers of Trollocs in Towers of Midnight. Lanfear knew the world she used in The Great Hunt would be appropriate for her purposes (a land in which the Trollocs had defeated Hawkwing and his descendants, hmmm...). Graendal knew of a world where she could march Trollocs cross country safely (and perhaps pick up Trollocs in the first place?). Her comments shortly before her last visit from Shadar Hairan ("[P]erhaps one of the mirror realms of the Portal Stones. Yes. There, his connections were not...") imply that the Dark One does have some influence over and connection to mirror realms.

 

If the bulk of Trollocs had to be pulled from a mirror realm (perhaps that same world where Hawkwing was defeated by the Trollocs) then they would have needed to be gathered, organized, and moved. This would take a considerable amount of time and effort. As we've seen the efforts of the other Forsaken more visibly in the "real" world, Demandred is the most likely candidate to do this "off-camera" work. It also fits his role as general for the Shadow.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

[Elan Tedronai]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

 

because i can't be bothered. if you want debates then look at my other alias 'sheikh chilli' for plenty of debate.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

 

because i can't be bothered. if you want debates then look at my other alias 'sheikh chilli' for plenty of debate.

 

thats fair enough. Its just tedious having to read pointless comments. I mean no offence by that, to you personally, its just a bit of a waste.

[johthohar]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

 

because i can't be bothered. if you want debates then look at my other alias 'sheikh chilli' for plenty of debate.

 

thats fair enough. Its just tedious having to read pointless comments. I mean no offence by that, to you personally, its just a bit of a waste.

 

I couldn't disagree more. I find off hand sarcastic/satirical comments like this break up the serious heated debate quite nicely. They break the tension if you will.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

 

because i can't be bothered. if you want debates then look at my other alias 'sheikh chilli' for plenty of debate.

 

thats fair enough. Its just tedious having to read pointless comments. I mean no offence by that, to you personally, its just a bit of a waste.

 

I couldn't disagree more. I find off hand sarcastic/satirical comments like this break up the serious heated debate quite nicely. They break the tension if you will.

 

Sometimes, that is true. But other times it is trolling for a heated response, Ive seen both. I mean no disrespect ot the poster, and it is possibly not their intent, but in other topics these one liners spark more than they break tension.

 

So there are two sides to it. I do agree in part, myself, I do not mind the comments themselves, but when they spark heated debates it gets rather tedious and the topic sometimes spirals off topic.

 

Again, I am not jsut talking about this particular poster, just using it as an example.

[johthohar]

Sometimes, that is true. But other times it is trolling for a heated response, Ive seen both. I mean no disrespect ot the poster, and it is possibly not their intent, but in other topics these one liners spark more than they break tension.

 

So there are two sides to it. I do agree in part, myself, I do not mind the comments themselves, but when they spark heated debates it gets rather tedious and the topic sometimes spirals off topic.

 

Again, I am not jsut talking about this particular poster, just using it as an example.

 

Speaking of spiraling off topic.........

[Elan Tedronai]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

 

because i can't be bothered. if you want debates then look at my other alias 'sheikh chilli' for plenty of debate.

 

thats fair enough. Its just tedious having to read pointless comments. I mean no offence by that, to you personally, its just a bit of a waste.

 

 

i think i now know the reason why Demandred has been so disappointing. Shouldn't you be preparing for war instead of posting on internet forums?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sometimes, that is true. But other times it is trolling for a heated response, Ive seen both. I mean no disrespect ot the poster, and it is possibly not their intent, but in other topics these one liners spark more than they break tension.

 

So there are two sides to it. I do agree in part, myself, I do not mind the comments themselves, but when they spark heated debates it gets rather tedious and the topic sometimes spirals off topic.

 

Again, I am not jsut talking about this particular poster, just using it as an example.

 

Speaking of spiraling off topic.........

 

haha, I guess I got sucked into that one. It does prove my point though...

 

 

ANyway, the discussion now is pretty pointless, everyone has basically come up with every scrap of evidence that MAY be demandred, but there is simply no way to know.

 

Reveal going to disappoint = yes, crazy fans have searched far too long that every idea has been discussed to death. its oour own fault.

 

Demandred going to be a big threat = Yes, Brandon has said.

 

Murandy= Most likely.

 

Other options (in order of likelyhood)

 

Male Channelers (BT and red-veils)

Gathering shadowspawn in blight (red-veils + portal Stones)

Shara

Seanchan

 

Not much more to add really.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well where could he strike right now that would have the biggest impact? The gathering of leaders. He could apear with his army and start blasting away. He wants Rand dead and now he knows where Rand will be. Have male channelers hidden in your army, and start blasting away.

 

nothing can redeem demandred at this point until he gatecrashes the meeting at fields of merrilor and balefires half the leaders. perrin dead. yes. elayne dead yes. egwene dead yes. the forces of light in chaos yes.

 

then i shall give respect to demandred. Right now he's just useless

 

In all of your 60 or so posts i have not once seen an actual debate. Why dont you say something actually intelligent and contribute to the debate.

 

because i can't be bothered. if you want debates then look at my other alias 'sheikh chilli' for plenty of debate.

 

thats fair enough. Its just tedious having to read pointless comments. I mean no offence by that, to you personally, its just a bit of a waste.

 

 

i think i now know the reason why Demandred has been so disappointing. Shouldn't you be preparing for war instead of posting on internet forums?

 

Hahaha, shhhh I am gathering my minions to war. (the fan base) Expect your character to die slowly

[Vlad]

Perhaps Demandred has assumed the role of Car'a'carn. (Work with me here)

 

1. Demandred only narrowly missed being the Light's Champion.

2. Demandred was extremely jealous of LTT.

3. Demandred a good general.

4. Demandred excelled at combat.

 

What if....Demandred searches the nearby worlds until he finds the appropriate nation of Aiel. He assumes the role of Car'a'can and takes leadership. This Aiel nation, being from a different world, develops a little differently. They....

 

1. Still use spears (short spear strapped to back)

2. Wear red veils instead of black

3. File their teeth to points (could be any number or reasons for this, but I like to think they became cannibals after the Breaking).

 

So as Car'a'carn, he promises the Aiel that he will lead them to battle, ports them to the "main world" and is now LTT has to face Shadow LTT. Maybe Demandred can even wield Black Callandor from the Shadow World.

[Vlad]

Ok, that theory out of the way, here's something else I've been thinking about.

 

We read from Rand/LTT's conversation with the Borderlanders that Demandred had formed the 81. I'm at work (shh), so I can't check to see if there was more to the name of the group.

 

LTT had the 100 companions.

Demandred formed the 81...something or others.

 

Again, he just couldn't surpass LTT.

 

If he did it before the breaking, is it possible that's his game now? Which would certainly lend credence to the theory of Taim serving Demandred. Especially since I can't get past Demandred just barely preceding Taim in stating "Let the Lords of Chaos Rule."

[ian8950]

I think it's obvious from all the little clues that Demandred is in the Black Tower. Nothing else makes would match up with all the little hints we've been given.

 

it's quoted that Demandred likes using proxies, and I'm starting to think that Taim is a proxy Demandred, made that way with heavy compulsion. Possibly to draw Rand into attacking a fake while the real deal can counterattack? and I'm sure that having a "proxy you" can be quite helpful in many situations. And by 13x13 turning other Asha'man one at a time he is securing his rule and except for a small pocket loyal to Logain it looks like he's about done with that.

 

so that's my theory, Taim isn't demandred, but he is. Kind of. The real Demandred is safe in the black tower, not as an Asha'man, but more likely living in Taims palace as someone we haven't seen yet.

 

ok, pick it apart guys.

[mbuehner]

I don't buy the Murandy theory. Its a nothing nation, what would be Demandred's angle? Short of compelling an entire army, what is he going to do: 'hey gang, guess what, line up next to those Trollocs, we're on team Dark One'. Doubtless they would run for their lives first chance they get. Besides that, talk about a let down. Murandy! Muhahahahah, you never expected that, did you Al Thor!

[Jblaylock]

I still say Demandred is Taim.

 

I think RJ denied it to teach us all a lesson. Lesson: it's just a story, and when people get so into it that they post hundreds of pages worth of arguments about whether or not Taim is Demandred, and then bring that argument to RJ himself by asking straight out, then the temptation for him to lie or mislead is too great; to give an Aes'Sedai truth, or give a Black Ajah truth (lie), and say "nope, he's not Taimandred." What a thrill that would be if Taim ended up being Demandred after all.

 

Evidense to support that... none.

 

Guess I'm just sparking something bad. Better shut up now.

[Elend]

I don't buy the Murandy theory. Its a nothing nation, what would be Demandred's angle? Short of compelling an entire army, what is he going to do: 'hey gang, guess what, line up next to those Trollocs, we're on team Dark One'. Doubtless they would run for their lives first chance they get. Besides that, talk about a let down. Murandy! Muhahahahah, you never expected that, did you Al Thor!

 

Its a nothing nation because its not unified. That is no longer true. And, as outlined elsewhere, he wouldn't need to actually put the human troops next to the Trollocs or anything. He'd just need to suddenly invade Andor when its entire army is on the Fields of Merrilor, or any other nation during that conference.

[Jblaylock]

If there is one underlying theme that has remained constant from the first book to the present, it is "DON'T TRUST ANYBODY!"

 

The entire series has been about rumor, the telephone game, stories changing over both physical space and time, people lying, people bending truths, telling truths that aren't the truths you think they are, etc etc etc. The entire series has been about choosing who to believe and who not to believe.

 

That in itself makes it obvious to me that RJ would have no problem whatsoever telling an Aes Se'dai truth, or bending the truth a bit further than an Aes Se'dai would, or straight up lying. Ergo, Taim is Demandred. Or Demandred is Taim.

[Fel]

Ergo, Taim is Demandred. Or Demandred is Taim.

 

There was at least one scene (or maybe 2) where this theory was shot down in the books. It had to do with Demandred not recognizing Asha'man (i think at the cleansing), which he most certainly would have if he was taim. Also, i recall vaguely a scene where Taim and Demandred are both seen giving different orders - can't remember exactly when - i think to kill rand. These were the "in the books" proof that he was not Taim. Someone with the books can probably find these references (assuming I have no gone off my rocker)

 

Given the portal stone prominence in this book, I am going with the theory that Taim has been recruiting armies (of trollocs and others) in alternate portal stone worlds. It explains a few things such as how so many trollocs can survive in the blight.

[Jblaylock]

Ergo, Taim is Demandred. Or Demandred is Taim.

 

There was at least one scene (or maybe 2) where this theory was shot down in the books. It had to do with Demandred not recognizing Asha'man (i think at the cleansing), which he most certainly would have if he was taim. Also, i recall vaguely a scene where Taim and Demandred are both seen giving different orders - can't remember exactly when - i think to kill rand. These were the "in the books" proof that he was not Taim. Someone with the books can probably find these references (assuming I have no gone off my rocker)

 

Given the portal stone prominence in this book, I am going with the theory that Taim has been recruiting armies (of trollocs and others) in alternate portal stone worlds. It explains a few things such as how so many trollocs can survive in the blight.

 

 

Not recognizing someone doesn't mean you don't know them. How many times do you bump into someone you know very very well and say, "Oh, [you], I didn't recognize you."

 

It's an expression of speech that really only means that the message -- I know this person -- did not make it from your eyes to your brain, for any number of reasons.

 

So, what was the exact context in which Demandred didn't recognize him? I'd need to re-read that before I let it serve as evidence for me, at least. Because if it was simply something like, "Demandred didn't recognize Flinn between the two Aes'Sedai who were shooting fireballs all over the freaking place," then I'd say that doesn't really mean squat. But if it was more like, "Demandred had never seen this man before in his life," then that would convince me.

[mbuehner]

I don't buy the Murandy theory. Its a nothing nation, what would be Demandred's angle? Short of compelling an entire army, what is he going to do: 'hey gang, guess what, line up next to those Trollocs, we're on team Dark One'. Doubtless they would run for their lives first chance they get. Besides that, talk about a let down. Murandy! Muhahahahah, you never expected that, did you Al Thor!

 

Its a nothing nation because its not unified. That is no longer true. And, as outlined elsewhere, he wouldn't need to actually put the human troops next to the Trollocs or anything. He'd just need to suddenly invade Andor when its entire army is on the Fields of Merrilor, or any other nation during that conference.

 

And then what?

[Elend]

^

 

And then you've just spread chaos through a large chunk of Randland and worked to destabilize them before the Last Battle.

[mbuehner]

You have? It sounds to me like you've delivered a human army just in time to confront the Trolloc army. Again- unless you posit that Demy can get the humans to act like Trollocs... i don't get it. Who cares if some random army is blundering around Andor, it seems to happen constantly. Even if theyre off pillaging White Bridge, does that really affect the big scale buildup for the Last Battle scheduled to commence in 48 hours?

 

Back when there was time on the clock it made sense to grab a nation as a power base, back before Rand had his own nations and power enough to wipe you off the map. You might be able to knock him or other rivals off the map and polish your Nae'blis credentials. But doing so now? Doesnt make much sense.