Discuss Logain

[Sharaman]

We know Logain Ablar was a minor lord of Ghealdan, before he sparked and became a false dragon.

About the Light he sees around Rand, like Siuan and Nicola, he has an ability to recognise ta'veren.

If he is Darkside, he's shown no signs of it. But if he is, Rand is screwed twice over where the Ashaman are concerned.

[Declan]

I really dont think Logain is a darkfriend. First because it doesn't seem to work into the story - if Logain was a darkfriend then the shadow would not post two very powerful male channelers in the BT to fight over control, that doesn't make any sense. Secondly because he seems genuine whenever he talks about the danger Taim to Rand in KoD, also in a chapter he seems afraid for Rand when he realizes Rand is holding as much of the OP that he can possibly hold without killing himself: those are not the actions of a darkfriend.

 

He could possibly be captured by Taim which someone earlier posed and the person theorized that since Logain is as powerful or maybe even slightly more powerful than Taim he wouldn't turn him since he might get usurped.

 

I am leaning more towards the fact that he is in hiding somewhere. This way when Naeff goes looking for him he will find him without too much effort. I am basing the "not too much effort" off of the fact that we have one book left.

[johthohar]

I really dont think Logain is a darkfriend. First because it doesn't seem to work into the story - if Logain was a darkfriend then the shadow would not post two very powerful male channelers in the BT to fight over control, that doesn't make any sense. Secondly because he seems genuine whenever he talks about the danger Taim to Rand in KoD, also in a chapter he seems afraid for Rand when he realizes Rand is holding as much of the OP that he can possibly hold without killing himself: those are not the actions of a darkfriend.

 

He could possibly be captured by Taim which someone earlier posed and the person theorized that since Logain is as powerful or maybe even slightly more powerful than Taim he wouldn't turn him since he might get usurped.

 

I am leaning more towards the fact that he is in hiding somewhere. This way when Naeff goes looking for him he will find him without too much effort. I am basing the "not too much effort" off of the fact that we have one book left.

 

He isn't afraid for Rand. He is afraid of Rand. Dude is (at this point) completely batshit and holding an insane amount of Power right after displaying some serious badassery with rediscovered weaves and such. And actually I think it is mentioned at some point that Taim is more powerful than Logain. I think it was something like a new False Dragon has risen in Saldea more powerful than the first. Or something to that effect.

[Declan]

I am not sure Taim is more powerful than Logain since through Rand's POV in KoD he notes that Logain's deathgates are not that much smaller than Rand's. Who exactly would have been able to tell in the books that Taim is more powerful than Logain since that was well before any Asha'man. Doesn't make much since. It's not like Aes Sedai are able to tell how powerful one man is compared to another. I would like to see a quote.

[johthohar]

I am not sure Taim is more powerful than Logain since through Rand's POV in KoD he notes that Logain's deathgates are not that much smaller than Rand's. Who exactly would have been able to tell in the books that Taim is more powerful than Logain since that was well before any Asha'man. Doesn't make much since. It's not like Aes Sedai are able to tell how powerful one man is compared to another. I would like to see a quote.

 

I don't have a quote. I was simply saying that, as I remember it, there is more in text references to Taim being more powerful than the other way around. IIRC the character who said this was a non-channeler and giving third hand info. But there is no textual basis for Logain being the more powerful of the two. It is entirely possible though. I have no opinion either way.

[blazetheearth]

Logain's absense is certainly related to his predicted "glory".

I think he is planning or preparing to save the day from Taim's plan.

 

All of the bonded Aes Sedai are also missing aren't they?

When were they last heard from?

 

I asked about those AS in a different thread, because Mezar (one of the AM that followed Logain) was mentioned in ToM, and many people think that he'd been 13x13'ed because of how he is described in this book, but he is listed as one of those that bonded an AS which led me to wonder "If he's been 13x13'ed, what happened to the AS bonded to him?"

 

Personally, I think that Taim has Logain confined somewhere in the BT and that Androl and Pevara will free him. As for why Taim would not 13x13 Logain, that goes more to personality than anything else. Taim is not one to enjoy an easy conquest of his greatest rival for power. Taim would not be satisfied with turning Logain, he would much prefer the enjoyment of bringing in the various AM that followed Logain and making Ablar watch while Taim turns each one to the Shadow. That seems much more in line with someone that Compelled Bashere's servants then sends them back to him.

[Androl]

I asked about those AS in a different thread, because Mezar (one of the AM that followed Logain) was mentioned in ToM, and many people think that he'd been 13x13'ed because of how he is described in this book, but he is listed as one of those that bonded an AS which led me to wonder "If he's been 13x13'ed, what happened to the AS bonded to him?"

 

Personally, I think that Taim has Logain confined somewhere in the BT and that Androl and Pevara will free him. As for why Taim would not 13x13 Logain, that goes more to personality than anything else. Taim is not one to enjoy an easy conquest of his greatest rival for power. Taim would not be satisfied with turning Logain, he would much prefer the enjoyment of bringing in the various AM that followed Logain and making Ablar watch while Taim turns each one to the Shadow. That seems much more in line with someone that Compelled Bashere's servants then sends them back to him.

I like this idea. It would explain why Logain was not seen in ToM and it would explain why Taim did not do him first. Taim is clearly a "shove your face in it", type of guy.

 

Just so we don't put all our eggs in one basket - an alternative option that I thought of before I read your idea, is that the AS bond makes it more difficult to do the 13 x 13 thing. Since Logain has 2 AS is is even harder to do him.

 

But I like your theory best.

[Fains nose]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

[rand4747]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

 

I would be under the assumption it is someone pretending to be Rand. One of the bad guys, maybe Taim himself or a forsaken.

[gambril]

I haven't read this whole thread, but I've read other threads and theories on Logain and what his glory entails. I'm convinced and will be until proven otherwise by the final book that Logain's glory is that he will be the first male channeler of the third age to hold the title of Aes Sedai :p. I imagine that people aren't going to argue that Logain isn't a leader and this is a natural thing for a leader to do. To take that first step and lead others to where they need/have to go. They won't like it one bit at first, but these are the kind of things a leader does.

 

Remember, 'The Guardians balance the Servants' prophecy which greatly implies that the 'two will become one', to me at least it does. The only other thing the 'two must become one' prophecy can be that I can think of is Seanchan/Randland becoming one, but I think with the main themes of the series being men/woman working together....men and woman working together seems most appropriate at this time.

[johthohar]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

 

Maybe Logain is mad even though he's shown little to no sign of it and still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. So, he kills Rand because he would see him as a false Dragon. That would explain the stepping over Rand's corpse to sit on a thrown and the maniacal laughing quite neatly. Could also kinda fulfill the glory viewing.

[rand4747]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

 

Maybe Logain is mad even though he's shown little to no sign of it and still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. So, he kills Rand because he would see him as a false Dragon. That would explain the stepping over Rand's corpse to sit on a thrown and the maniacal laughing quite neatly. Could also kinda fulfill the glory viewing.

 

Logain seems clean, Taim on the other hand seems to still think of himself as the dragon, and being mad to boot probably doesn't help.

[Declan]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

 

Maybe Logain is mad even though he's shown little to no sign of it and still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. So, he kills Rand because he would see him as a false Dragon. That would explain the stepping over Rand's corpse to sit on a thrown and the maniacal laughing quite neatly. Could also kinda fulfill the glory viewing.

 

Logain seems clean, Taim on the other hand seems to still think of himself as the dragon, and being mad to boot probably doesn't help.

Yeah Logain does seem clean and it might have something to do with his gentling since he wasn't able to channel for quite awhile. But Taim could be mad but, if he is a darkfriend then he might get the benefit that the forsaken get by being connected to the DO so that they dont suffer from the madness.

[Val Mickey]

Logain's mad alright. Who else would bond two Aes Sedai?

[johthohar]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

 

Maybe Logain is mad even though he's shown little to no sign of it and still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. So, he kills Rand because he would see him as a false Dragon. That would explain the stepping over Rand's corpse to sit on a thrown and the maniacal laughing quite neatly. Could also kinda fulfill the glory viewing.

 

Logain seems clean, Taim on the other hand seems to still think of himself as the dragon, and being mad to boot probably doesn't help.

Yeah Logain does seem clean and it might have something to do with his gentling since he wasn't able to channel for quite awhile. But Taim could be mad but, if he is a darkfriend then he might get the benefit that the forsaken get by being connected to the DO so that they dont suffer from the madness.

 

I don't get where either of you are getting that Logain is clean? Just because he doesn't act out of his mind doesn't mean he is sane. Think about it. We've never had a POV from Logain. The rate at which male channelers go insane seems to be related to how often and how much power one channels. Logain has frequently channeled massive amounts of the One Power. He seems to despise Rand even though he also seems to be working for the Light. To me this is evidence that he still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. And there is no evidence whatsoever that being gentled removed the madness and/or taint from his mind. That theory is kind of bizarre. There may not be a lot of evidence that he is mad. But neither is there a lot that he isn't.

[gary0044187]

Logain's mad alright. Who else would bond two Aes Sedai?

zing

[Durinax]

just adressing the viewing of Logain stepping over a paper-mache' Rand, is this the Ashaman Rand sent in disguise to the Black Tower?

 

Maybe Logain is mad even though he's shown little to no sign of it and still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. So, he kills Rand because he would see him as a false Dragon. That would explain the stepping over Rand's corpse to sit on a thrown and the maniacal laughing quite neatly. Could also kinda fulfill the glory viewing.

 

Logain seems clean, Taim on the other hand seems to still think of himself as the dragon, and being mad to boot probably doesn't help.

Yeah Logain does seem clean and it might have something to do with his gentling since he wasn't able to channel for quite awhile. But Taim could be mad but, if he is a darkfriend then he might get the benefit that the forsaken get by being connected to the DO so that they dont suffer from the madness.

 

I don't get where either of you are getting that Logain is clean? Just because he doesn't act out of his mind doesn't mean he is sane. Think about it. We've never had a POV from Logain. The rate at which male channelers go insane seems to be related to how often and how much power one channels. Logain has frequently channeled massive amounts of the One Power. He seems to despise Rand even though he also seems to be working for the Light. To me this is evidence that he still thinks he is the Dragon Reborn. And there is no evidence whatsoever that being gentled removed the madness and/or taint from his mind. That theory is kind of bizarre. There may not be a lot of evidence that he is mad. But neither is there a lot that he isn't.

logain probably doesnt like rand because he thinks rand is shirking his duties.

[Declan]

I am not so sure that Logain despises Rand. And i guess that Logain could very well be crazy but I tell you one thing, he is a functioning crazy person. That is unless that his madness has something to do with his absence, at which i will feel like a fool.

 

Logain i think will enjoy being the new Rand's No. 2 because just as Durinax said that he thought Rand was not doing the right thing the last time he met him.

 

As I read through people's posts more and more it seems to me that Logain is being held in the BT and not out recruiting in some far off place. He will be rescued by one of the Asha'man we saw in ToM. Whatever does happen though it has to happen within a few chapters since (crossing fingers) there is only one book left.

[johthohar]

I am not so sure that Logain despises Rand. And i guess that Logain could very well be crazy but I tell you one thing, he is a functioning crazy person. That is unless that his madness has something to do with his absence, at which i will feel like a fool.

 

Logain i think will enjoy being the new Rand's No. 2 because just as Durinax said that he thought Rand was not doing the right thing the last time he met him.

 

As I read through people's posts more and more it seems to me that Logain is being held in the BT and not out recruiting in some far off place. He will be rescued by one of the Asha'man we saw in ToM. Whatever does happen though it has to happen within a few chapters since (crossing fingers) there is only one book left.

 

You could just as easily argue that Rand was functionally insane. He was undoubtedly batshit but he still got shit done. Narishma, Flinn, and Naeff were all insane as well but they were functional. And Logain has, without question, channeled more of Saidin pre-cleansing than they have.

 

Logain is a lord, however minor. And has been shown to be extremely arrogant. I doubt he will enjoy playing second fiddle to anyone. Much less someone he sees as a younger less experienced farm boy.

[Declan]

I am not so sure that Logain despises Rand. And i guess that Logain could very well be crazy but I tell you one thing, he is a functioning crazy person. That is unless that his madness has something to do with his absence, at which i will feel like a fool.

 

Logain i think will enjoy being the new Rand's No. 2 because just as Durinax said that he thought Rand was not doing the right thing the last time he met him.

 

As I read through people's posts more and more it seems to me that Logain is being held in the BT and not out recruiting in some far off place. He will be rescued by one of the Asha'man we saw in ToM. Whatever does happen though it has to happen within a few chapters since (crossing fingers) there is only one book left.

 

You could just as easily argue that Rand was functionally insane. He was undoubtedly batshit but he still got shit done. Narishma, Flinn, and Naeff were all insane as well but they were functional. And Logain has, without question, channeled more of Saidin pre-cleansing than they have.

 

Logain is a lord, however minor. And has been shown to be extremely arrogant. I doubt he will enjoy playing second fiddle to anyone. Much less someone he sees as a younger less experienced farm boy.

despite bristling at the comment made by Cadsuane that he hardly deserves his noble title, we can hardly make judgments on his character as to whether he his willing to serve the Dragon since we have never had his POV. There are some nobles that do follow Rand willingly.

 

You are right, Rand was a functional insane person. If functioning was balefiring everything in sight and nearly killing his father over. Sounds functional to me. How long has Logain been gentled? towards the very beginning of the series. He has probably channeled more Saidin than most Asha'man but not by huge amount because he was out of commission.

 

If i am not mistaken he realizes Rand is not a less experienced "farm boy" when the trollocs attack the manor in KoD, and he says something along the lines "were you just going to save those weaves for the special ones?" So he is admitting right there that he does not know as many weaves as Rand.

[johthohar]

despite bristling at the comment made by Cadsuane that he hardly deserves his noble title, we can hardly make judgments on his character as to whether he his willing to serve the Dragon since we have never had his POV. There are some nobles that do follow Rand willingly.

 

You're making my point for me. We can't be sure about anything regarding to Logain because we've never heard his thoughts. I'm not trying to prove that he is crazy. I'm proving that there is no proof he isn't. I'm not trying to prove he hates Rand. I'm saying we don't know that he doesn't.

 

You are right, Rand was a functional insane person. If functioning was balefiring everything in sight and nearly killing his father over. Sounds functional to me. How long has Logain been gentled? towards the very beginning of the series. He has probably channeled more Saidin than most Asha'man but not by huge amount because he was out of commission.

 

My fault. This wasn't a very good comparison. Rand has constantly channeled MASSIVE amounts of tainted Saidin. He is obviously more crazy than most, if not all, other male channelers pre-epiphany. But many of the Ashaman only began channeling not long ago. Logain, while he was cut off from the source for some time, was channeling for some time before Rand even left the Two Rivers. And not small amounts of the One Power. He was laying entire human armies to waste. Not to mention his feats post-healing. He has had plenty of time to go crazy. So yea.... a huge amount more than most Ashaman.

 

If i am not mistaken he realizes Rand is not a less experienced "farm boy" when the trollocs attack the manor in KoD, and he says something along the lines "were you just going to save those weaves for the special ones?" So he is admitting right there that he does not know as many weaves as Rand.

 

Again, you're making my point for me. He is still talking down to Rand here. Accusing him of favoritism. He doesn't admit anything. Please show evidence that Logain is loyal to Rand. Don't just suggest that he might be.

[MattTaz]

Just throw this out there.

I apologies if this has been said before.

 

With Logain achieving power and glory as few had known - i think min said this when they were escaping the Tower -

and Eg seeing Logain step onto the black stone over a fake Rand.

Do you think it has something to do with portal stones and alternate worlds and people?

[Declan]

Just because Rand has been accused of favoritism by Logain does not mean that he his talking down to him or unwilling to follow him. At the time Logain was probably worried about the situation at the BT and could not understand why Rand would withhold information from him. Accusing someone of favoritism has no link with thinking you are better than someone. It just means Logain thinks Rand does not think Logain is worthy or some such.

 

I never understood why you were arguing against my point. I just meant that Logain had not reached the point where he completely loses his mind and destroys everyone around him. Did you think that i was saying that he wasn't crazy at all?

[Declan]

Just throw this out there.

I apologies if this has been said before.

 

With Logain achieving power and glory as few had known - i think min said this when they were escaping the Tower -

and Eg seeing Logain step onto the black stone over a fake Rand.

Do you think it has something to do with portal stones and alternate worlds and people?

I find that to be a bit of stretch. Many people on this forum have brought up a quote or reasoned out that it is much too late to bring other lands (shara) much less other worlds (portal stones) into the series and make it fit nice and tidy. Some think that might be where Demandred was hiding but I don't think that is where Logain's glory is going to come from. The taking back of the BT helping Lan fight in the blight have been mentioned.

 

If you read the your own quote it says "black stone" (unless thats not true, someone will correct me) which leads us to the BT. A fake Rand can easily be Taim since he is the one training the men and not Rand and wishes he could be Rand. Someone said that Taim is the analog of this age's Demandred- who went over to the shadow because he hated Lews Therin. I like that idea. Remember that Egwene 's vision are always metaphorical.

[johthohar]

Just because Rand has been accused of favoritism by Logain does not mean that he his talking down to him or unwilling to follow him. At the time Logain was probably worried about the situation at the BT and could not understand why Rand would withhold information from him. Accusing someone of favoritism has no link with thinking you are better than someone. It just means Logain thinks Rand does not think Logain is worthy or some such.

 

It's not just in what he says. It's in the implied tone. Logain doesn't think Rand is worthy of the post he's been given. I think this is because Logain still believes it to be his post (i.e. He still believes he is the Dragon Reborn).

 

I never understood why you were arguing against my point. I just meant that Logain had not reached the point where he completely loses his mind and destroys everyone around him. Did you think that i was saying that he wasn't crazy at all?

 

Very few of the current age have gone completely nuts. And even fewer have started destroying everything around them. Some (Rand, Taim, Logain) show a greater resilience to madness than others as they have channeled much more of tainted Saidin than others who went totally crazy. But that doesn't make him immune to it. I never said Logain was entirely gone. But it only takes a bit of insanity to delude yourself into thinking you are someone you are not.