Discuss Egwene

[dwn]

That Silviana wrote that note is a point against Egwene, not a point in her favor.

 

She had no legal right to control Gawyn's movements. He is not a Warder, or a member of her army. Her only call on Gawyn's loyalty is a personal one. And still she has Siviana, who dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular, write the note. That is not good behavior.

 

And she wasn't appalled when she saw the note, because she didn't see the note. She imagined that she knew what the tone was like, given the people involved. Which means, of course, that she knew when she had Silviana send it that it would be nasty.

 

And after all that, she STILL doesn't send a note of her own! She has Silviana write another.

 

Having Silviana write the letter is one of the most cold and arrogant things she did in this book. Making clear that Gawyn to her was not even worth the time for a scribbled message.

 

But she doesn't have any authority over him, any more than the King of Illian does.

 

If she wants him to return, it is because Egwene-the-woman (God, i hate that formulation) wants him to return.

 

Egwene is in the final hours of planning her Mesaana trap, so she had Silviana to send a messenger to Gawyn. She delegated a message. How appalling. I'm shocked that she didn't take a half hour to write him a love letter and beg him to come back. Later, when Egwene learns how the first message was phrased, she has Silviana send a second, more polite one (ToM, The Right Thing, p. 546). Gawyn wants to be her warder so giving him orders certainly isn't out of line, yet she specifically tells Silviana to ask rather than order.

 

I agree that Egwene is overly dismissive of Gawyn, yet Gawyn is equally dismissive of her. She requires that he understand and respect her station; he demands that she acknowledge his love. She hides from her emotions; he is consumed by his.

 

Call her a bit stubborn, call her a bit clueless, but none of that justifies the level of hate many people seem to have for Egwene.

 

--dwn

[randsc]

Actually, yes, it is appalling. I doubt that many of us would forgive it, in our own lives. He's so important to her, but she can't spend 10-15 seconds writing him a note? And it's not like that Messana trap "plan" was any great shakes.

 

And again, she didn't "learn how the first message was phrased." She never saw it. She knows, because she knows Sylviana, how it would have been phrased. And she delegated it anyway. And to Sylviana. And then did so again.

 

Is this episode enough to justify many people's feelings about this character? Not by itself, no. What this episode is is indicative of the sorts of attitudes and actions people find distasteful in Egwene, in many, many, many other other occassions.

[dwn]

Actually, yes, it is appalling. I doubt that many of us would forgive it, in our own lives. He's so important to her, but she can't spend 10-15 seconds writing him a note? And it's not like that Messana trap "plan" was any great shakes.

 

And again, she didn't "learn how the first message was phrased." She never saw it. She knows, because she knows Sylviana, how it would have been phrased. And she delegated it anyway. And to Sylviana. And then did so again.

 

Is this episode enough to justify many people's feelings about this character? Not by itself, no. What this episode is is indicative of the sorts of attitudes and actions people find distasteful in Egwene, in many, many, many other other occassions.

 

Many things are important to Egwene. Among those are the ongoing Tower reunification and capturing/killing Mesaana. She's also had a recent meeting with the Dragon that went poorly, and is rallying support among the world's monarchs to try to stop him. The woman's a tad busy.

 

"When I realized how Silviana had phrased my request that you return, I was worried that you wouldn't come back at all."

 

-- ToM, Stronger Than Blood, p. 639

 

Egwene didn't see the letter itself, but Silviana apparently reported the contents in some detail. And the phrasing used was not Egwene's intention.

 

The worst I can realistically say about Egwene is that she's stubborn, a bit too driven, and sometimes comes across as preachy.

 

-- dwn

[randsc]

Are you married?

 

I'm trying to imagine how it would play with my wife if we were having a fight, and she left me and went home to her mother, and I delegated the note asking her to return to my department's secretary.

 

Who disliked her.

 

And all women.

 

Look, it isn't just the notes. It is what her POV reveals about what she is actually thinking.

 

She is obnoxious, arrogant beyond all reason, an un-reconstructed sexist, and generally an unpleasant character.

[lhsmommy]

Are you married?

 

I'm trying to imagine how it would play with my wife if we were having a fight, and she left me and went home to her mother, and I delegated the note asking her to return to my department's secretary.

 

Who disliked her.

 

And all women.

 

Look, it isn't just the notes. It is what her POV reveals about what she is actually thinking.

 

She is obnoxious, arrogant beyond all reason, an un-reconstructed sexist, and generally an unpleasant character.

 

I was considering this when I read these scenes. If my husband and I (or boyfriend if you aren't married)had huge fight or he felt useless and left, he would be LESS than happy that I asked my assistant to send him a letter telling him to get his butt back here. (Especially if said assistant was biased.)

 

I would expect to get a response of F off or Divorce.

 

Regardless of what's on her plate or that he may someday be her warder and have to follow orders, if you claim to love someone and then treat them with such offhand disregard I say that it is more than a little arrogant, callous and snarky.

Jen-

[anotherfingolfin]

Are you married?

 

I'm trying to imagine how it would play with my wife if we were having a fight, and she left me and went home to her mother, and I delegated the note asking her to return to my department's secretary.

 

Who disliked her.

 

And all women.

 

Look, it isn't just the notes. It is what her POV reveals about what she is actually thinking.

 

She is obnoxious, arrogant beyond all reason, an un-reconstructed sexist, and generally an unpleasant character.

 

I was considering this when I read these scenes. If my husband and I (or boyfriend if you aren't married)had huge fight or he felt useless and left, he would be LESS than happy that I asked my assistant to send him a letter telling him to get his butt back here. (Especially if said assistant was biased.)

 

I would expect to get a response of F off or Divorce.

 

Regardless of what's on her plate or that he may someday be her warder and have to follow orders, if you claim to love someone and then treat them with such offhand disregard I say that it is more than a little arrogant, callous and snarky.

Jen-

 

addendum to the aforementioned- the thing about her being busy with Messana being an excuse didn't really pan out with me. The final straw that made him leave was her generally dismissive and hostile attitude towards his investigation's conclusions. Now had she been right, then i think she is justified. But she was wrong, about the bloodknives, and she needed him to protect her in the end. Being bitchy is bad under any circumstances, but when you're being bitchy despite being wrong, that is worse.

 

also, had it been a male character (in a position of power), demanding something akin to subservience before furthering a relationship with a female, general outcry would have been a wee bid louder, i am certain.

[dwn]

Are you married?

 

I'm trying to imagine how it would play with my wife if we were having a fight, and she left me and went home to her mother, and I delegated the note asking her to return to my department's secretary.

 

Who disliked her.

 

And all women.

 

Look, it isn't just the notes. It is what her POV reveals about what she is actually thinking.

 

She is obnoxious, arrogant beyond all reason, an un-reconstructed sexist, and generally an unpleasant character.

 

I was considering this when I read these scenes. If my husband and I (or boyfriend if you aren't married)had huge fight or he felt useless and left, he would be LESS than happy that I asked my assistant to send him a letter telling him to get his butt back here. (Especially if said assistant was biased.)

 

I would expect to get a response of F off or Divorce.

 

Regardless of what's on her plate or that he may someday be her warder and have to follow orders, if you claim to love someone and then treat them with such offhand disregard I say that it is more than a little arrogant, callous and snarky.

Jen-

 

addendum to the aforementioned- the thing about her being busy with Messana being an excuse didn't really pan out with me. The final straw that made him leave was her generally dismissive and hostile attitude towards his investigation's conclusions. Now had she been right, then i think she is justified. But she was wrong, about the bloodknives, and she needed him to protect her in the end. Being bitchy is bad under any circumstances, but when you're being bitchy despite being wrong, that is worse.

 

also, had it been a male character (in a position of power), demanding something akin to subservience before furthering a relationship with a female, general outcry would have been a wee bid louder, i am certain.

 

It is hardly strange for an Amyrlin, a queen, or anyone in a such a position to have an assistant write a short message on her behalf. Egwene's instructions here were very likely along the lines of "Silviana, would you send someone to Caemlyn and ask Gawyn to return."

 

-- dwn

[Zentari]

 

It is hardly strange for an Amyrlin, a queen, or anyone in a such a position to have an assistant write a short message on her behalf. Egwene's instructions here were very likely along the lines of "Silviana, would you send someone to Caemlyn and ask Gawyn to return."

 

-- dwn

Except that Gawyn wasn't her subject or anything else really, plus she picked one of the WORST people to do so.

 

Bitch move either way.

[dwn]

 

It is hardly strange for an Amyrlin, a queen, or anyone in a such a position to have an assistant write a short message on her behalf. Egwene's instructions here were very likely along the lines of "Silviana, would you send someone to Caemlyn and ask Gawyn to return."

 

-- dwn

Except that Gawyn wasn't her subject or anything else really, plus she picked one of the WORST people to do so.

 

Bitch move either way.

 

An Amrylin or queen would often use a secretary or other assistant to send any sort of message. And she picked her Keeper, the primary assistant to the Amyrlin.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

Gawyn and Egwene had an argument which made Gawyn leave Tar Valon. So the note wasn't a routine message, it was a serious personal matter, which Egwene should've handled it herself. Instead she chose to have her Keeper for (even though Egwene knew she disliked Gawyn) as if Gawyn should follow her orders no matter how they are worded and without considering his feelings.

[smileyman]

It is hardly strange for an Amyrlin, a queen, or anyone in a such a position to have an assistant write a short message on her behalf. Egwene's instructions here were very likely along the lines of "Silviana, would you send someone to Caemlyn and ask Gawyn to return."

 

-- dwn

Except that Gawyn wasn't her subject or anything else really, plus she picked one of the WORST people to do so.

 

Bitch move either way.

 

An Amrylin or queen would often use a secretary or other assistant to send any sort of message. And she picked her Keeper, the primary assistant to the Amyrlin.

 

-- dwn

 

 

Anybody who's using a secretary to send a letter to the love of her life doesn't deserve the love of that person. To compound the error, when the secretary screws up the letter, she's given the authority to write another letter. That's just plain callous.

 

I know that when I was pursuing my wife, if I'd had someone else write her a love letter for me she would've kicked me to the curb, and rightly so.

 

There's absolutely no reason for Egwene to be having her secretary write letters to Gawyn because this isn't a political relationship. It's not like the rulers of two lands having their ambassadors write letters regarding the proposed betrothal of their kids (or themselves for that matter). In this matter Egwene is not acting as the Amyrlin Seat. Her marriage/relationship with Gawyn is not for the good of the Tower, but for her own personal profit, and she can't spare 5 minutes to write her own letter?

 

 

[dwn]

Anybody who's using a secretary to send a letter to the love of her life doesn't deserve the love of that person. To compound the error, when the secretary screws up the letter, she's given the authority to write another letter. That's just plain callous.

 

I know that when I was pursuing my wife, if I'd had someone else write her a love letter for me she would've kicked me to the curb, and rightly so.

 

There's absolutely no reason for Egwene to be having her secretary write letters to Gawyn because this isn't a political relationship. It's not like the rulers of two lands having their ambassadors write letters regarding the proposed betrothal of their kids (or themselves for that matter). In this matter Egwene is not acting as the Amyrlin Seat. Her marriage/relationship with Gawyn is not for the good of the Tower, but for her own personal profit, and she can't spare 5 minutes to write her own letter?

 

Am I the only one who just doesn't see the insult here? Egwene wasn't sending a love letter. It was a short note asking Gawyn to return to Tar Valon; the middle ages equivalent of a text message.

 

If my wife or girlfriend sent me something like that, assuming she had an assistant who usually handled such things, I wouldn't think anything of it aside from rolling my eyes at the tone. Gawyn responds like he does because he has the emotional maturity of a schoolgirl.

 

-- dwn

[randsc]

I suppose if you think that this is the sort of situation that calls for, "the middle ages equivalent of a text message," that likely provides the answer to the question, "Are you married."

[Kahlika]

Anybody who's using a secretary to send a letter to the love of her life doesn't deserve the love of that person. To compound the error, when the secretary screws up the letter, she's given the authority to write another letter. That's just plain callous.

 

I know that when I was pursuing my wife, if I'd had someone else write her a love letter for me she would've kicked me to the curb, and rightly so.

 

There's absolutely no reason for Egwene to be having her secretary write letters to Gawyn because this isn't a political relationship. It's not like the rulers of two lands having their ambassadors write letters regarding the proposed betrothal of their kids (or themselves for that matter). In this matter Egwene is not acting as the Amyrlin Seat. Her marriage/relationship with Gawyn is not for the good of the Tower, but for her own personal profit, and she can't spare 5 minutes to write her own letter?

 

Am I the only one who just doesn't see the insult here? Egwene wasn't sending a love letter. It was a short note asking Gawyn to return to Tar Valon; the middle ages equivalent of a text message.

 

If my wife or girlfriend sent me something like that, assuming she had an assistant who usually handled such things, I wouldn't think anything of it aside from rolling my eyes at the tone. Gawyn responds like he does because he has the emotional maturity of a schoolgirl.

 

-- dwn

 

Yeah, I don't see it either. Back in my temping days I worked as a PA, I have friends who still do. It's absolutely normal for a PA to be sent out to pick up a birthday present/whatever for a partner or something along those lines when needed, and this is far less personal than that. I guess it just comes down to what you're used to/expect on this one.

[f3llyn]

Far less personal? How could devotion be far less than personal? Gawyn's initial reaction to the letter is right. He very nearly doesn't return until he learns of the blood knives. Egwene has no right to order him to do anything at that point because he is not a subject of the White Tower. And she also made it very clear up until that point that she didn't want him around, she basically told him to gtfo. And when he did? She's actually surprised. That's the worst part. Arrogant to the bone.

[dwn]

Far less personal? How could devotion be far less than personal? Gawyn's initial reaction to the letter is right. He very nearly doesn't return until he learns of the blood knives. Egwene has no right to order him to do anything at that point because he is not a subject of the White Tower. And she also made it very clear up until that point that she didn't want him around, she basically told him to gtfo. And when he did? She's actually surprised. That's the worst part. Arrogant to the bone.

 

The short message Egwene sent was far less personal than a birthday gift, love letter, etc. Egwene also makes it clear that her intention was to ask rather than order him to return. Silviana added the verbal pomposity on her own. Now Gawyn wasn't completely wrong for reacting the way he did--Egwene has definitely been unduly snippy with him. Yet he has been equally dismissive of her needs as she is of his.

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

How was he dismissive of her needs? He was trying to protect her, if she listened to him and actually conversed with him on the matter it would have been entirely different. But she didn't, it was just "I'm right, you're wrong so we'll do it my way" and she doesn't give his worries a single care. She also acts like Elayne thinking she's invincible and no harm can come to her, only she doesn't have Min's viewings as an excuse for being an arrogant brat.

 

She refused to see what was right in front of her face when presented with the facts because she's always right in her mind. She's the epitome of arrogance.

[dwn]

How was he dismissive of her needs? He was trying to protect her, if she listened to him and actually conversed with him on the matter it would have been entirely different. But she didn't, it was just "I'm right, you're wrong so we'll do it my way" and she doesn't give his worries a single care. She also acts like Elayne thinking she's invincible and no harm can come to her, only she doesn't have Min's viewings as an excuse for being an arrogant brat.

 

She refused to see what was right in front of her face when presented with the facts because she's always right in her mind. She's the epitome of arrogance.

 

Egwene specifically said she needed time to figure out her feelings for him, and that had to wait on her figuring out her new role as Amyrlin. It had only been a few days since Egwene was locked in a cell and being tortured regularly, yet Gawyn was constantly pressuring her to commit to a close relationship or marriage. She needed space and time, he wanted petting.

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

That's why she wouldn't listen to him about the assassin(s)? Her "knowing best" very nearly got her killed.

 

Gawyn: "Hey listen, this guy was using steel for his weapon, not the one power.."

 

Egwene: "It's Mesanna, now stop guarding my door, I know best!"

 

Anyways, I don't know why I argue it, I don't like Egwene or Gawyn.

[Hadilmir]

I suppose if you think that this is the sort of situation that calls for, "the middle ages equivalent of a text message," that likely provides the answer to the question, "Are you married."

 

*Unimportant

 

Since we all know that Egwene-haters are always gonna hate and 'Eggheads' (Why is it that no one has made a derisive name for Egwene-haters yet?) are always going to dispute the hate; let's just move back to the point I made several pages ago. Egwene is the foremost non-ta'veren player for the Light, do you agree? Yes or no, and why. That is still discussing Egwene, no?

[randsc]

What rushed mistake? I don't think you understood the post you are quoting.

 

If your spouse left you, and you wanted to reconcile, would you send a text message? Much less one that said, "I order you to come back, right now!"?

 

As for being the foremost, non-ta'veren player for the light, I find that to be an awkward formulation. Kinda like saying, "The mostest major minor character." But if we have to ID the foremost non-ta'veren player for the light, I'll go with Nynaeve, unless and until we know that Egwene will be fighting the Dark One at Shayol Ghul.

[randsc]

That's why she wouldn't listen to him about the assassin(s)? Her "knowing best" very nearly got her killed.

 

Gawyn: "Hey listen, this guy was using steel for his weapon, not the one power.."

 

Egwene: "It's Mesanna, now stop guarding my door, I know best!"

 

Anyways, I don't know why I argue it, I don't like Egwene or Gawyn.

 

Agreed. Gawyn is pretty useless. Which I suppose means he and Egwene were destined for one another.

[Kahlika]

Far less personal? How could devotion be far less than personal?

 

I meant that Egwene's letter to Gawyn was far less personal than the example I gave, that of a PA being sent to pick a birthday gift. It wasn't a love letter, it wasn't a birthday gift etc. I'm not saying it wasn't a personal matter, simply that as far as personal matters go it isn't as personal as you can get, and that it is totally normal for a PA to deal with this type of thing in some environments.

 

Egwene has no right to order him to do anything at that point because he is not a subject of the White Tower.

 

Good thing she instructed Silviana to ask then right?

 

But she didn't, it was just "I'm right, you're wrong so we'll do it my way" and she doesn't give his worries a single care.

 

I recall her acknowledging his suggestions about Sisters bonding Warders was sensible and planning to bring the idea up to the Hall.

 

She also acts like Elayne thinking she's invincible and no harm can come to her, only she doesn't have Min's viewings as an excuse for being an arrogant brat.

 

Actually she admits what she's doing is very dangerous, but argues that she has to do it because as Amyrlin it is her responsibility to protect the Sisters however she can, even if it means taking risks.

 

I'm starting to think people are just so blinded by their positions on this that they can't even be bothered reading or absorbing the full text.

[randsc]

Does the PA sign his or her name to the gift? Because as I recall, the note was signed by Silviana as Keeper.

 

But even if it wasn't, a note for a departed SO to please return does strike me as far more personal than a birthday gift, yes.

[Kahlika]

If your spouse left you, and you wanted to reconcile, would you send a text message? Much less one that said, "I order you to come back, right now!"?

 

He isn't her spouse.

 

She instructed Silviana to ask.