Discuss Egwene

[randsc]

Nothing the slightest bit personal. I just find people's motivations interesting. After all, you seem perfectly willing to ascribe people's distaste for Egwene to either sexism or Rand fanboism. Goose, gander, all that.

 

So tell me, was I wrong in my supposition?

[moratcorlm]

Nothing the slightest bit personal. I just find people's motivations interesting.

Questioning motives and personal characteristics is practically the definition of an ad hominem argument, i.e. a personal attack.

After all, you seem perfectly willing to ascribe people's distaste for Egwene to either sexism or Rand fanboism. Goose, gander, all that.

Neither one of those things derives from either age or sex, and both are (or should be limited to) qualities of an argument itself or its relation to other arguments, so it isn't a goose-gander situation.

[Darth Krewl]

Maybe that's it!! Elan, are you a politician? That would explain a lot about your posts.

 

LOL yeah! This is just hilarious...

 

Elan's not a politician. She's either a very young woman, probably still in her teens, or an even younger boy experiencing his first fictional crush.

 

Well, since this quote does seem to be addressing me, I will reply.

 

Excuse me moratcorlm, but I just can't see this constituting a personal attack on the part of randsc. Just mere speculation of Elan's profile, nature and personality. I see no insult, no demeaning or offensive terms and no lewd words anywhere in the quote above. So, I really can't see what the big fuzz is all about.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nothing the slightest bit personal. I just find people's motivations interesting.

Questioning motives and personal characteristics is practically the definition of an ad hominem argument, i.e. a personal attack.

After all, you seem perfectly willing to ascribe people's distaste for Egwene to either sexism or Rand fanboism. Goose, gander, all that.

Neither one of those things derives from either age or sex, and both are (or should be limited to) qualities of an argument itself or its relation to other arguments, so it isn't a goose-gander situation.

 

I know what Randsc is saying, but I agree, and lets just leave it shall we?

 

Elan is allowed his/her own opinions, and I dont think anyone has the right to question his motives nor personal history.

 

Example, would you feel comfortable, Randsc, me questioning a somewhat pious devotion to Rand? Can I say that you only like him because you yourself are on death row or have a terminal illness (in the lines of Rand prophisied to die)

 

It is not important WHY the person has their opinion here, this forum is about the expression of opinions of characters from a ficticious world and come together to appreciate the depth and entertainment that RJ and Brandon have given us.

 

I know im not a moderator, so by all means ignore me, but lets just leave personal lives out of this shall we?

[randsc]

No, declaring someone's arguments to be invalid based on their personal characteristics would be ad hominem. Being curious as to whether there is a relationship between a person's background and experience and their reaction to certain characters is not.

 

If the search worked, I could point you to countless examples where a poster started a comment with something like, "As a woman, I feel..." or something similar.

 

Our backgrounds and experiences inform our reactions. They don't determine our reactions, but they do inform them. A woman is likely to feel differently about Aes Sedai than is a man. A married woman may feel differently about Nynaeve than a single one. A young man may very well react differerntly to Thom's attitudes towards the 3 boys than an older man would. A victim of sexual assault is unlikely to find the Mat/Tylin arc amusing. Etc, etc.

 

Again, these traits and characteristics are not deterministic, but to deny that they have influence is to deny reality.

 

I maintain, based on Elan's postings, that she is very young, and most likely female. She isn't wrong for those reasons(if I were claiming that, THAT would be ad hominem). She's wrong becasue she's wrong. But those reasons may offer clues as to why she is wrong in exactly the WAYS that she is.

 

And I don't have a "pious devotion" to Rand. He's not even one of my favorite characters. But he IS the messiah figure of this story, a fact which is not even debatable. Jordan had many strengths; subtlety was not among them.

 

My favorite characters are Nynaeve, Aviendha and (sometimes) Perrin. I am a man, age 43, employed as a fire captain in a mid-sized city in the Northestern US. I have been married for 14 years and have three children. I have a BA in political science and an MPA. I was the first in my family to go to college. Feel free to speculate as to how these characteristics inform my reading of the WOT. To do so is not an ad hominem attack.

[blazetheearth]

 

It is not important WHY the person has their opinion here, this forum is about the expression of opinions of characters from a ficticious world and come together to appreciate the depth and entertainment that RJ and Brandon have given us.

 

 

To me the part of this sentence that has the most bearing on the current discussion is "expression of opinions of characters from a fictitious world".

 

This quote (in the context of previous posts on this thread and others by Elan) is not a comment about the characters in the book being galled by something, instead it refers to the posters on this forum.

 

It must gall alot of people that she's a tough, demanding, determined woman.

 

It was not phrased as a expressing personal opinion about the character; that would have been more like, "I really like that Egwene is a tough, demanding, determined woman." Or if it was meant as a comment on the people of Randland's attitude toward Egwene, "Wow, it must gall the Tairen High Lords that Egwene has become...." or mentioning the specific characters by name.

 

Instead we get the quoted post. That is a personal attack on anyone on this forum that does not think of as Egwene as tough, etc. Neither I, nor randsc, nor Darth Krewl made this personal. We did not take this thread off topic by referring to other poster personally, we responded to having it taken off topic with Elan's about it "galling a lot of people".

 

That is why in my response I asked specifically, "Unless you mean that it galls the characters in the books? Because I would really like the reference cited where it is said that someone (anyone, man or woman) thinks or says that about Egwene."

Because I wanted to make sure that I understood the comment Elan made. If it was about characters in the book, so be it, but I want the references. If it is about the fans that post here, then it is based on an assumption of those fan's motivation. Since many of us have made or motivations clear, many times over, it seems that making such an assumption as to our motivations is just being pedantic and spiteful. Besides, you know what they say about the word "assume".

[moratcorlm]

Then Elan's post was also impolite and should be treated as such. There are a number of preemptive posts to the effect that "criticism of Egwene will be called sexist"; while that's just feeding the fire, it's no more than such a post deserves. To call a poster sexist is one thing; a sexist is as a sexist does, and ultimately the argument is about the sexism of a particular post, which is fine; speculation about how the the poster came to be so sexist, or in what sexist ways they might act in the future, I think crosses a number of lines, though.

If it is about the fans that post here, then it is based on an assumption of those fan's motivation. Since many of us have made or motivations clear, many times over, it seems that making such an assumption as to our motivations is just being pedantic and spiteful.

Precisely.

No, declaring someone's arguments to be invalid based on their personal characteristics would be ad hominem. Being curious as to whether there is a relationship between a person's background and experience and their reaction to certain characters is not.

 

[...]

 

Again, these traits and characteristics are not deterministic, but to deny that they have influence is to deny reality.

 

I maintain, based on Elan's postings, that she is very young, and most likely female. She isn't wrong for those reasons(if I were claiming that, THAT would be ad hominem). She's wrong becasue she's wrong. But those reasons may offer clues as to why she is wrong in exactly the WAYS that she is.

This last paragraph is self-contradictory and also directly contradicts your opening sentence. To probe the background of a person with whom you disagree to find "clues as to why she is wrong" is both impolite, in that it implicitly accuses the opponent of arguing in bad faith, and, because it is inextricably intertwined with the argument in play, is without question an ad hominem. Perhaps an indirect one, but you're arguing about your opponent rather than the issue.

[Darth Krewl]

Then Elan's post was also impolite and should be treated as such.

 

You really think so, moratcorlm?

 

Well, in that case, how do you think I should feel about your post on the "Elayne's Arc" thread, where you referred to me as the "Star Wars guy"?

 

That was not only impolite to me and totally uncalled for, but pretty mocking and derisive too.

 

So, how do you think that should be treated?

[moratcorlm]

As such.

[Jon Paul]

My favorite characters are Nynaeve, Aviendha and (sometimes) Perrin. I am a man, age 43, employed as a fire captain in a mid-sized city in the Northestern US. I have been married for 14 years and have three children. I have a BA in political science and an MPA. I was the first in my family to go to college. Feel free to speculate as to how these characteristics inform my reading of the WOT. To do so is not an ad hominem attack.

 

Your liking of Nynaeve likely relates to both the fact that you are a parent and a fire-captain. As a parent you can empathise with Nynaeve's attitude towards the Emond's Field folk which for example I, as a younger reader, found highly annoying until I began to understand her better. Like whiskey, Nyn has to grow on you. And let us not forget, your profession also plays a part. Like Nyn' you share a desire to help others, to serve others. Nyn' does so through the One Power and Healing and you do so through the fire services.

 

Your like of Aviendha relates to the fact that you are a male. We all had a crush on Lucy Lawless when we were younger. Only natural that we carry it on to an extent with Avi' !

 

I'm lost on Perrin.

[randsc]

I definately never pictured Aviendha as looking like Lucy Lawless!

[Darth Krewl]

As such.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't remember having ever addressed you in any manner that would merit the way you mocked and referred to me in such derisive and offensive manner.

 

Alas, if I did, I would like to know just when and what I said that could constitute a reason for you to behave the way you did, so that I may offer you a proper apology. Because if I did offend you, it was never my intention. Just like I believe you didn't mean to offend me, yet you did.

 

Just remember the saying, if you live in a glass house...

[Val Mickey]

Does it look like Egwene is being set up for a fall? (by the author(s), I mean.)

 

Egwene has been consistently getting the best of everyone, which will make for a great OMG! She didn't! kind of moment when she finally catches the greasy end of the stick. Then there's the Guinevere myth in which she's responsible for a great mistake. So I have this bad feeling...

[Jon Paul]

I definately never pictured Aviendha as looking like Lucy Lawless!

 

Nor have I. It's more the whole warrior princess scantily dressed kicking ass that young men can find attractive !

[Darth Krewl]

Does it look like Egwene is being set up for a fall? (by the author(s), I mean.)

 

Egwene has been consistently getting the best of everyone, which will make for a great OMG! She didn't! kind of moment when she finally catches the greasy end of the stick. Then there's the Guinevere myth in which she's responsible for a great mistake. So I have this bad feeling...

 

That's my take on it too and not only concerning Egwene, but the Aes Sedai as a whole. Though, describing it through their leader and most significant representative would make a lot of sense from Jordan/Sanderson's part, IMO.

 

I have no problem with this (in fact I think that Egwene's in dire need for a reality check, along with most of her "daughters") but I just hope w/e mistakes doesn't hinder the efforts of the Light-siders in general. Now, that would definitely suck.

 

BTW, Egwene=Guinevere (or Gwenevere, in other tongues). Great observation!

[randsc]

Well, that's the debate. Is she being writen as obtuse and arrogant on purpose, in order to set her up for the same sort of character development and course-correction that we have seen with all of the other major characters? Or is she Mary Sue?

 

I think it is the former. I base this on the fact that all of the other major characters have done more growing, including the women.

 

But I do worry that it will be the latter.

[randsc]

Does it look like Egwene is being set up for a fall? (by the author(s), I mean.)

 

Egwene has been consistently getting the best of everyone, which will make for a great OMG! She didn't! kind of moment when she finally catches the greasy end of the stick. Then there's the Guinevere myth in which she's responsible for a great mistake. So I have this bad feeling...

 

That's my take on it too and not only concerning Egwene, but the Aes Sedai as a whole. Though, describing it through their leader and most significant representative would make a lot of sense from Jordan/Sanderson's part, IMO.

 

I have no problem with this (in fact I think that Egwene's in dire need for a reality check, along with most of her "daughters") but I just hope w/e mistakes doesn't hinder the efforts of the Light-siders in general. Now, that would definitely suck.

 

BTW, Egwene=Guinevere (or Gwenevere, in other tongues). Great observation!

 

 

I agree that Guinevere is the inspiration for Egwene's name, but I don't know that that implies that we can pull any clues to the plot from that legend.

 

Gawyn and Gareth certainly have different roles in WOT than in Authurian legend.

[Darth Krewl]

I agree that Guinevere is the inspiration for Egwene's name, but I don't know that that implies that we can pull any clues to the plot from that legend.

 

Gawyn and Gareth certainly have different roles in WOT than in Authurian legend.

 

Well, to be honest and to clarify, my knowledge of Arthurian myth is very limited, so I couldn't use it as the basis of my theory on Egwene/WT's fall. I was just agreeing with Val Mickey's sentiments on the issue.

 

Thinking here's that everything most the AS (and their leader) have been doing for a while is hindering the efforts of the Light more than helping them. IMO, Egwene's attitude concerning Rand is a perfect example of this.

[Val Mickey]

That's why I have just the feeling. Otherwise I'd have a bad certainty and a fiery burp.

 

IMO RJ has pulled all the legends into this, just giving them a seed of truth. Artur is long dead, but Al'Thor has become the benevolent dictator. Galahad is still the perfect knight as Galad, but his adventures certainly differ. Gawain has saved his neck from beheading, and has gained stolen kisses, and so does Gawyn. So far Egwene as Guinevere has done nothing to inherit her stories. And she hasn't even looked at Lan(celot) twice.

 

Darth, Egwene = Guinevere observation is not a new one. The RJ-written books have real world references in almost every page. Almost every name can be traced to a myth! Just wiki Niall and see. There will be a link to Logain, and from there you can go to Culain's Hound, and so on. Which is just one of the reasons why WoT is so much better than Star Wars. Or Lord of the Rings. Oops, I said it, didn't I? Time to hide.

[Darth Krewl]

Darth, Egwene = Guinevere observation is not a new one. The RJ-written books have real world references in almost every page. Almost every name can be traced to a myth! Just wiki Niall and see. There will be a link to Logain, and from there you can go to Culain's Hound, and so on. Which is just one of the reasons why WoT is so much better than Star Wars. Or Lord of the Rings. Oops, I said it, didn't I? Time to hide.

 

Yeah, I know about the characters in WoT and the influence Arthurian has on most of them or their names at least. I'm just not as familiar with that myth as I am with Jordan's Eastern or Masonic influences, for instance.

 

Stuff like the Wheel of Time itself, rebirth, the yin-yang as the symbol of the Aes Sedai, the way most factions work in WoT (very similar to Masonic lodges; especially the Scottish rite, etc.) but, believe it or not, I had forgotten about Egwene=Gwenevere lol! I was just pointing out that your observation reminded me of that little detail.

 

All in all, I am expecting Egwene to make a huge mistake at some point in AMoL, just like you, if for different reasons, perhaps. It does seem to me like Jordan had her (and the White Tower) set up for a fall.

 

As for the rest of your post, this is a WoT fan site, after all. So, I wouldn't expect most people not to consider it their favorite story and that's perfectly fine w/me. I respect all opinions. Just don't say that out loud at the force.net or the onering.net, though ;-)

[ranjitb]

@randsc - while you may be right, I dread that there is no fall/growth forthcoming for our not-so-beloved Egwene.

It's certainly possible but unlikely given that the only remaining installment is nominally the last one-third of what would have been a 12 book series.

A character doesn't suddenly become something they haven't been for 11 2/3 books in the last few pages.

 

Without getting too deeply sucked into the personal arguments, I'd just like to reiterate that my problems with Egwene have nothing to do with her gender. Really, nothing.

And everything to do with the fact that the character (unless a huge upheaval is coming) has been written as too-perfect, too-successful and flawless from day one.

Egwene is the only character in the series we have seen no personal growth from - not to say her situation hasn't changed - but SHE hasn't.

She is still written as entirely perfect and entirely on top of things as she was from the first chapter in which we met her back in EotW.

 

Just like all the other characters she has been ripped from her home, from all she has ever known, chased halfway around the world, exalted by prophecy, reduced to slavery, captured, tortured, raised, re-raised, re-captured and through all of this she remains the same person "I am Egwene, and thus I am perfect" and maddeningly, the books agree.

Rand has descended into madness and returned. His experiences have molded him, for better or worse into what he is, including the very human flaw of being claustrophobic from his time in the box - something that allows the readers to relate to a god/messiah/hero as a person.

Nynaeve has learned that being the ultimate wisdom isn't all she is - she is also a woman capable of love, and has realized that she would rather walk away the glory of being AS to be with the man she loves.

Aviendha has learned/is learning that the sacred honor-codes she lived her life by mean nothing, NOTHING, in the face of practical necessity.

Matt has gone from being the irresponsible trickster, jealous of the glory the others recieved to being probably the most reliable character in the series.

Perrin...well, I guess he whines a lot less.

And on and on...except Egwene. She is still, and has always been perfect. AGH.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Darth, Egwene = Guinevere observation is not a new one. The RJ-written books have real world references in almost every page. Almost every name can be traced to a myth! Just wiki Niall and see. There will be a link to Logain, and from there you can go to Culain's Hound, and so on. Which is just one of the reasons why WoT is so much better than Star Wars. Or Lord of the Rings. Oops, I said it, didn't I? Time to hide.

 

Yeah, I know about the characters in WoT and the influence Arthurian has on most of them or their names at least. I'm just not as familiar with that myth as I am with Jordan's Eastern or Masonic influences, for instance.

 

Stuff like the Wheel of Time itself, rebirth, the yin-yang as the symbol of the Aes Sedai, the way most factions work in WoT (very similar to Masonic lodges; especially the Scottish rite, etc.) but, believe it or not, I had forgotten about Egwene=Gwenevere lol! I was just pointing out that your observation reminded me of that little detail.

 

All in all, I am expecting Egwene to make a huge mistake at some point in AMoL, just like you, if for different reasons, perhaps. It does seem to me like Jordan had her (and the White Tower) set up for a fall.

 

As for the rest of your post, this is a WoT fan site, after all. So, I wouldn't expect most people not to consider it their favorite story and that's perfectly fine w/me. I respect all opinions. Just don't say that out loud at the force.net or the onering.net, though ;-)

 

 

There HAS to be some change, seriously, there HAS TO. All throughout the series Aes Sedai incompitence has been a theme, and how the Aes Sedai need to change has been hinted at and more.

 

RJ (and now Brandon) IMO are working on the main theme of co-operation and balance. The fact that people need to work together. Males and Females, Saidin and Saidar. At the moment, the bloody white Tower is so backwards after the cleansing they have to shield the Dragon Reborn before he meets the Amyrlin. Its kind of like a country nowdays who still approves of slavery.

 

Look at the Aes Sedai. The forsaken think them children, a fraction of their former glory. Everyone in the world basically distrusts them, they need the three oaths for people to interact with them and even then they dont trust them. WE see other female channeler societies exalted, not feared and mistrusted in their nations. we constantly reminded of the vices of the Aes Sedai way and finally saw their full incompitence in tGS where a raid nearly destroyed the tower.

 

Look at Rand's change. He was becomming a modern Aes Sedai, cold and distant (even before the evil bits) and pushed the world away. Then his epiphany he realizes the importance of people and emotion, like he says "Tell Logain I was wrong. We are men." He is now 420 odd years old and remembers the AoL when Aes Sedai were "perfect". He tells Nynaeve not to let them "ruin" her. Because like the Forsaken, he knows they are going down the wrong path.

 

Look now at Nynaeve's testing. That says it all. The Aes Sedai need to change.

 

Somehow, despite all Egwene's progress in tGS, now that she is Amyrlin, she has become modern Aes Sedai to the core. Which. like her or not, NEEDS TO CHANGE.

 

IMO when Rand ignores her "protests" against him breaking the seals and he tells her he is going to do it anyway, she will "force her hand" and try to shield him and keep him captive in the tower.

 

At that moment, the armies gathered realise, "What the hell is that arrogant little witch doing? Thats the DR, and his arguments make sense" and all turn against her, and stand united against the white tower, who have been repressing them with fear of channeling and say "WE are fed up of your crap". Then hopefully Egwene at least has her epiphany and realises "What the hell am I doing? This isnt right, I should listen to Nynaeve."

 

Probs not whats happening, but I would like to see it go down like that.

 

If Egwene does not at least acknowledge Rand's wisdom and superiority (because, lets face it, Rand is the wisest man alive now) I will really be annoyed, If RJ expected us to believe that Egwene as she is, is a Hero, and perfect character, I will be really really annoyed.

 

This because she is exactly like pre-epiphany Rand (without the evil) which everyone agrees was bad. So why should she be perfect like this when Rand was hated and a criminal for doing the exact same thing?

[Val Mickey]

Actions are the acid test, aren't they? If she hasn't done any evil, why should anyone hate her? Dislike her, sure, but hate? Just because she/they lack humility?

 

And scaring poor Elan away. You realise a new Forsaken is being born, don't you?

[moratcorlm]

Are you asking about characters or readers? The characters by and large should probably not hate her (though some of the people she has, hypocritically, wronged... I would not blame Nynaeve in the least if she hated Egwene after being tortured by her). We, on the other hand, are given both the knowledge the other characters have (by which light she comes close to Suedom) and the benefit of the editorial choice to put us in her head and make her one of the six main characters. Mary Sues are often loathed despite being morally pure protagonists, because it's such an uninteresting writing choice; the combination of rapid achievement and universal praise with an undeveloping, massively self-righteous, and often hypocritical personality is almost worse–and it's really hard to tell whether we're intended to have cared about the latter points. So it looks like Jordan may have miscalculated in his estimation of how appealing a protagonist she would be, how well the strengths of the character are balanced by the flaws, and that's really what people hate. But who knows; maybe her plotline has a twist left in it.

[heliage]

Wonder if things might come full circle again .

 

Egwene hears about attack on WT. Egwene returns and gets leashed.

 

Cue Mat coming in looking for Horn,

 

"Oh hi Egwene, take that off her"

 

"Yes Highness" sul'dam

 

Egwene "I was just about to free myself Mat, I did not need your help"

 

Tries to channel at Mat

 

Mat feels cold medallion and then cue same scene that happened with I think Joline?