Discuss Egwene

[blazetheearth]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

I don't think so. She was extremely arrogant long before she met Halima. The whole "I knew better than anyone, especially Rand" attitude was dispalyed by her time and time again before she become Amyrlin.

 

Agreed. It came up too often before Halima started working on her. But I do think that Halima did do something to her, besides giving her You-Cant-Dream headaches. Possibly Compulsion, and possibly something softer like Verin's trick, which requires the reason to already be present in the person. Maybe a weave that exaggerates certain personality traits, the trait would have to exist first, but can be greatly increased with this weave? just a possibility.

[randsc]

 

But I thought randsc comment was meant to say "Weellllll, let's see how the posters here interpret this statement, because it will show how sexist the people that reply to it are."

 

Just my humble opinion and interpretation of the comments.

 

That's pretty much it, yes.

 

This may be an issue of different vernaculars. I doubt the phrase, "let me get some popcorn" has any particular meaning in the UK.

[randsc]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

I don't think so. She was extremely arrogant long before she met Halima. The whole "I knew better than anyone, especially Rand" attitude was dispalyed by her time and time again before she become Amyrlin.

 

Agreed. It came up too often before Halima started working on her. But I do think that Halima did do something to her, besides giving her You-Cant-Dream headaches. Possibly Compulsion, and possibly something softer like Verin's trick, which requires the reason to already be present in the person. Maybe a weave that exaggerates certain personality traits, the trait would have to exist first, but can be greatly increased with this weave? just a possibility.

 

That's an interesting thought. Just amplifying Egwene's pre-existing arrogance.

[Val Mickey]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

I don't think so. She was extremely arrogant long before she met Halima. The whole "I know better than anyone, especially Rand" attitude was dispalyed by her time and time again before she become Amyrlin.

 

She's trying to be like Sorilea.

 

Whom I missed in ToM, BTW.

[blazetheearth]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

I don't think so. She was extremely arrogant long before she met Halima. The whole "I know better than anyone, especially Rand" attitude was dispalyed by her time and time again before she become Amyrlin.

 

She's trying to be like Sorilea.

 

Whom I missed in ToM, BTW.

 

Sorilea was out riding Bela during the entire book. LOL

[Elan Tedronai]

i am going to laugh when Egwene ends up being the leader of all women channellers after AMOL.

[Jack Shaftoe]

i am going to laugh when Egwene ends up being the leader of all women channellers after AMOL.

 

Why? Do you hate female channelers that much?

 

But I think it has gotten worse, hence the "contributed to."

 

I think it's gotten worse because she has been very successful lately and so many AS, novices and Accepted virtually worship her.

[randsc]

i am going to laugh when Egwene ends up being the leader of all women channellers after AMOL.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that that is the most likely outcome.

[Elan Tedronai]

i am going to laugh when Egwene ends up being the leader of all women channellers after AMOL.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that that is the most likely outcome.

 

i know but the gnashing of teeth and the outrage on here will be sweet! Bow down to Amyrlin Suckers!

[Durinax]

i am going to laugh when Egwene ends up being the leader of all women channellers after AMOL.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that that is the most likely outcome.

 

i know but the gnashing of teeth and the outrage on here will be sweet! Bow down to Amyrlin Suckers!

actually I could see rand putting nyn above egwene, since he can trust her more. I think she would give in to that demand after a while because she would think hey I am higher up in AS than her so I can control her from behind the scenes.

[randsc]

I honestly don't think that Rand will be in any position to determine who leads the female channelers AFTER AMoL. Cause onna counta I don't think he will be around.

 

As for the gnashing of teeth, that will only occur if Egwene fails to grow up, and nonetheless ends up in charge. I think what most people are hoping for for Egwene is the same sort of character development we have seen in all of the other major characters. If we see that, I expect that all will be forgiven.

 

I have noticed that Egwene's defenders fall into two different camps. One thinks that she is a flawed but interesting character with great potential who will continue to grow and be a worthy Amyrlin in the future. The other thinks she is already perfect, and any dislike of her is sexist or due to her opposing Rand.

 

I suspect the members of the first camp are, on average, at least 10 years older than the members of the second camp. I honestly think that almost everyone who thinks that Egwene is a sympathetic, fully-mature individual is likely a very young woman.

[Durinax]

I read wrong I thought they meant for TG

[blazetheearth]

i am going to laugh when Egwene ends up being the leader of all women channellers after AMOL.

 

I don't think anyone disputes that that is the most likely outcome.

 

No dispute here, just disappointment over the idea. I agree with the idea of putting Nyn in charge, but she's too smart to take it. Eggy will just soak it up, like she is owed it. I think it would be much more interesting to have Gawyn put on one (or more) of the BK rings and then some unforeseen reaction between the BloodKnife ter'angreal and the Warder Bond that causes her to drop dead instantly and Gawyn then rides charging into a HUGE force of trollocs and fades to end his death rage against. That would be awesome! It is no go'ng to happen, but would be a great scene anyway.

 

 

 

Edited because I didn't bother to proofread - changed BloodKnife rings to Warder Bond - I really want a type-what-you-think keyboard. lol

[randsc]

Here's my real take on the confrontation between Egwene and Rand in ToM:

 

I think Egwene was every bit as caught up in Rand's ta'veren influence as the other Aes Sedai.

 

The others were so caught up in it that they could barely speak. I think the only reason that Egwene could oppose Rand was that the purposes of the Pattern/of Rand were well served by Egwene doing as she did.

[blazetheearth]

I honestly don't think that Rand will be in any position to determine who leads the female channelers AFTER AMoL. Cause onna counta I don't think he will be around.

 

As for the gnashing of teeth, that will only occur if Egwene fails to grow up, and nonetheless ends up in charge. I think what most people are hoping for for Egwene is the same sort of character development we have seen in all of the other major characters. If we see that, I expect that all will be forgiven.

 

I have noticed that Egwene's defenders fall into two different camps. One thinks that she is a flawed but interesting character with great potential who will continue to grow and be a worthy Amyrlin in the future. The other thinks she is already perfect, and any dislike of her is sexist or due to her opposing Rand.

 

I suspect the members of the first camp are, on average, at least 10 years older than the members of the second camp. I honestly think that almost everyone who thinks that Egwene is a sympathetic, fully-mature individual is likely a very young woman.

 

Now I'm going for the popcorn!

[dwn]

I'm on my third readthrough of ToM, and my eyebrows went up at this passage:

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, as long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

 

Siuan echos that thought at a later point as well, so I don't think it's necessarily an outgrowth of Aran'gar's meddling.

 

The biggest problem Egwene faces is that she is both stubborn and usually right. That combination makes it hard for her to back off a wrong course of thought or action, a trait people label--incorrectly--as arrogance. We see this in how she interacts with Gawyn, and how she responds to Rand's bait. Yet we have also seen Egwene take advice from Siuan and others she trusts, change course when convinced to do so, and admit--however grudgingly--to her mistakes.

 

It's not arrogant to assume the rightness of your position. It's arrogant to not care whether you are right or wrong. Egwene cares a great deal, both personally and in the larger context of the Aes Sedai.

 

-- dwn

[randsc]

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

[dwn]

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

 

-- dwn

[randsc]

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

 

-- dwn

I am refering specifically to Nynaeve.

 

Egewene does have reason to believe that Rand isn't insane. Nynaeve, who has much greater knowledge of Rand's state of mind (having been with him for months) doesn't believe him to be insane.

[johthohar]

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

 

-- dwn

 

Despite the fact that she may or may not think Rand is crazy, she doesn't even seem interested in hearing his reasons. Nor does she attempt to REALLY reason with him. She's pretty much like "Nope. You're stupid. I'm right. Piss off." I really loved Egwene and her badassery in pwning the Aes Sedai and telling them, "Look, this tradition crap is stupid. We're not doing it anymore." But in this book she kinda flips into full-on Aes Sedai mode where she thinks she is right no matter what. Just IMO.

[dwn]

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

I am refering specifically to Nynaeve.

 

Egewene does have reason to believe that Rand isn't insane. Nynaeve, who has much greater knowledge of Rand's state of mind (having been with him for months) doesn't believe him to be insane.

 

Another instance where Egwene was wrong, yet had some legitimate grounds for her stance. Nynaeve had seen Rand evolve over the past few months, but only had a couple days to come to terms with his post-VoG incarnation. Nynaeve also saw a massive blob of taint-goop pressing on his mind, however buffered it seemed to be. In Egwene and Siuan's view, Nynaeve could easily have been ignoring evidence of madness because of Rand's ta'veren influence.

 

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

 

Despite the fact that she may or may not think Rand is crazy, she doesn't even seem interested in hearing his reasons. Nor does she attempt to REALLY reason with him. She's pretty much like "Nope. You're stupid. I'm right. Piss off." I really loved Egwene and her badassery in pwning the Aes Sedai and telling them, "Look, this tradition crap is stupid. We're not doing it anymore." But in this book she kinda flips into full-on Aes Sedai mode where she thinks she is right no matter what. Just IMO.

 

He never really gave her a chance in their first encounter, and part of meeting him at the FoM is to discuss the plan and reason with him. Now, Egwene obviously believes she's in the right and plans to forcibly oppose Rand if he refuses to capitulate. Yet given how Egwene has responded to advice and criticism before, it's not hard to imagine her acceding to his plan should she learn the reasoning behind it.

 

-- dwn

[Durinax]

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

I am refering specifically to Nynaeve.

 

Egewene does have reason to believe that Rand isn't insane. Nynaeve, who has much greater knowledge of Rand's state of mind (having been with him for months) doesn't believe him to be insane.

 

Another instance where Egwene was wrong, yet had some legitimate grounds for her stance. Nynaeve had seen Rand evolve over the past few months, but only had a couple days to come to terms with his post-VoG incarnation. Nynaeve also saw a massive blob of taint-goop pressing on his mind, however buffered it seemed to be. In Egwene and Siuan's view, Nynaeve could easily have been ignoring evidence of madness because of Rand's ta'veren influence.

 

And the largest context she does care about is the Aes Sedai. That's part of the problem.

 

It is arrogant to assume the rightness of your position when you know the other party to have greater knowledge of the pertinent facts.

 

If you're referring to Gawyn, he was but one of many people investigating the murders, and he hasn't shown himself to be very reliable in the past. If you were referring to Rand, Egwene has no reason to believe he isn't simply insane. Yes, Egwene was wrong in both cases, but she did have legitimate grounds for her beliefs.

 

Despite the fact that she may or may not think Rand is crazy, she doesn't even seem interested in hearing his reasons. Nor does she attempt to REALLY reason with him. She's pretty much like "Nope. You're stupid. I'm right. Piss off." I really loved Egwene and her badassery in pwning the Aes Sedai and telling them, "Look, this tradition crap is stupid. We're not doing it anymore." But in this book she kinda flips into full-on Aes Sedai mode where she thinks she is right no matter what. Just IMO.

 

He never really gave her a chance in their first encounter, and part of meeting him at the FoM is to discuss the plan and reason with him. Now, Egwene obviously believes she's in the right and plans to forcibly oppose Rand if he refuses to capitulate. Yet given how Egwene has responded to advice and criticism before, it's not hard to imagine her acceding to his plan should she learn the reasoning behind it.

 

-- dwn

thats half the problem with egwene, whenever people take rands side from her, its taveren work. If sisters swear to him its compulsion, with a little bit of taveren. She doesnt believe that he can have anyone one his side without them being completely under the taveren effect and thus must be discounted

[Zentari]

Siuan echos that thought at a later point as well, so I don't think it's necessarily an outgrowth of Aran'gar's meddling.

So the ex Amyrlin agrees with her, providing a basis against the compulsion.Let's not forget that Siuan is a good old fashioned self-important Aes Sedai .

How does that help Egwene's position ? [/sarcasm]

 

The biggest problem Egwene faces is that she is both stubborn and usually right.

No , her biggest problem is that no one has criticized her damn mistakes.Even when Gawyn was laying down bleeding to death when he had saved her life what is his sentence ? " But I disobeyed you..."

She needs a good wake up call.

 

It's not arrogant to assume the rightness of your position. It's arrogant to not care whether you are right or wrong. Egwene cares a great deal, both personally and in the larger context of the Aes Sedai.

 

-- dwn

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

Any other words ?

EDIT: Was kinda offensive.

[dwn]

thats half the problem with egwene, whenever people take rands side from her, its taveren work. If sisters swear to him its compulsion, with a little bit of taveren. She doesnt believe that he can have anyone one his side without them being completely under the taveren effect and thus must be discounted

 

I've mentioned before (in this thread, I think), that Egwene likely harbours some professional rivalry/jealousy towards Rand. They started off as equals, and now he's the prophesied Dragon Reborn. Even as Amyrlin, how will she ever best that? Rand definitely makes her dig her heels in more than anyone else.

 

Siuan echos that thought at a later point as well, so I don't think it's necessarily an outgrowth of Aran'gar's meddling.

So the ex Amyrlin agrees with her, providing a basis against the compulsion.Let's not forget that Siuan is a good old fashioned self-important Aes Sedai .

How does that help Egwene's position ? [/sarcasm]

 

The point was that Egwene's reaction to Nynaeve is not necessarily proof of Aran'gar's lingering touch, shall we say.

 

The biggest problem Egwene faces is that she is both stubborn and usually right.

No , her biggest problem is that no one has criticized her damn mistakes.Even when Gawyn was laying down bleeding to death when he had saved her life what is his sentence ? " But I disobeyed you..."

She needs a good wake up call.

 

It's not arrogant to assume the rightness of your position. It's arrogant to not care whether you are right or wrong. Egwene cares a great deal, both personally and in the larger context of the Aes Sedai.

 

-- dwn

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

Any other words to twist around your finger in order to justify her character ?

 

If Egwene had a record of faulty reasoning and failure, then you could claim her current stance was arrogant. Yet whether you agree with her or not, Egwene has a legitimate basis for her views. It is not arrogance for her--a person of proven intelligence and capability--to presume to be correct absent substantial evidence to the contrary.

 

-- dwn

[Zentari]

thats half the problem with egwene, whenever people take rands side from her, its taveren work. If sisters swear to him its compulsion, with a little bit of taveren. She doesnt believe that he can have anyone one his side without them being completely under the taveren effect and thus must be discounted

 

I've mentioned before (in this thread, I think), that Egwene likely harbours some professional rivalry/jealousy towards Rand. They started off as equals, and now he's the prophesied Dragon Reborn. Even as Amyrlin, how will she ever best that? Rand definitely makes her dig her heels in more than anyone else.

 

Siuan echos that thought at a later point as well, so I don't think it's necessarily an outgrowth of Aran'gar's meddling.

So the ex Amyrlin agrees with her, providing a basis against the compulsion.Let's not forget that Siuan is a good old fashioned self-important Aes Sedai .

How does that help Egwene's position ? [/sarcasm]

 

The point was that Egwene's reaction to Nynaeve is not necessarily proof of Aran'gar's lingering touch, shall we say.

 

The biggest problem Egwene faces is that she is both stubborn and usually right.

No , her biggest problem is that no one has criticized her damn mistakes.Even when Gawyn was laying down bleeding to death when he had saved her life what is his sentence ? " But I disobeyed you..."

She needs a good wake up call.

 

It's not arrogant to assume the rightness of your position. It's arrogant to not care whether you are right or wrong. Egwene cares a great deal, both personally and in the larger context of the Aes Sedai.

 

-- dwn

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

Any other words to twist around your finger in order to justify her character ?

 

If Egwene had a record of faulty reasoning and failure, then you could claim her current stance was arrogant. Yet whether you agree with her or not, Egwene has a legitimate basis for her views. It is not arrogance for her--a person of proven intelligence and capability--to presume to be correct absent substantial evidence to the contrary.

 

-- dwn

So her own inadequacies give her a carte blanche to behave as she has ? You are trying to present reasons for her behavior, something that was never an issue.That was her being an arrogant Aes Sedai.

 

You still haven't answer my question so I'm gonna go ahead and spoil it : it doesn't.

 

 

Um , no , then I would claim she is an arrogant idiot.The arrogant part is still valid however since

1) it has been proven that she can be wrong

2)there is NO basis for her views.Sure the taveren nature IS a big factor but if you are trying to say that she considers this as a viable reason for Nyn's behavior or the acceptance of the view Rand has in general, why hasn't she asked herself "If it is THAT damn strong, why do I seem to be unaffected by it ?"

3)Yes it is arrogance to consider yourself correct when there IS evidence to the contrary.See : Rand's appearance, Nyn's support , prophecies.

She has disregarded ALL of that (you too by dismissing said evidence).