Discuss Rand

[KoenVandendurpel]

An idea about Rand:

 

Mierin at the end of ToM says something like: "he comes, the darkness in every men mind, etc, comes" (I don't have the books with me here for an exact quote)

Rand has an enormous black thing covering his brain (taint = dark one)

 

about Jesus: didn't Jesus save mankind by taking the sins of mankind into himself?

 

So if the dark one = sins of mankind

then Rand will take the dark one into himself. how this will close the bore, i have no idea but i think that Fain will play a role in that.

 

Probably Alivia will help taking the dark one into himself (Rand loses himself and thus dying)

 

Anybody an idea about this?

[Callern]

An idea about Rand:

 

Mierin at the end of ToM says something like: "he comes, the darkness in every men mind, etc, comes" (I don't have the books with me here for an exact quote)

Rand has an enormous black thing covering his brain (taint = dark one)

 

about Jesus: didn't Jesus save mankind by taking the sins of mankind into himself?

 

So if the dark one = sins of mankind

then Rand will take the dark one into himself. how this will close the bore, i have no idea but i think that Fain will play a role in that.

 

Probably Alivia will help taking the dark one into himself (Rand loses himself and thus dying)

 

Anybody an idea about this?

 

Not exactly. Jesus took the sins upon himself, he got punished for mankinds sins. He did not take them into himself. Jesus became a sacrifice, not a vessel of sins.

 

The mankind in WoT are not sinners, they never tasted an apple from the forbidden tree.

Mankind, in a christian view, is sinners. They sin because they are sinners, they are born sinners.

[capuga]

An idea about Rand:

 

Mierin at the end of ToM says something like: "he comes, the darkness in every men mind, etc, comes" (I don't have the books with me here for an exact quote)

Rand has an enormous black thing covering his brain (taint = dark one)

 

about Jesus: didn't Jesus save mankind by taking the sins of mankind into himself?

 

So if the dark one = sins of mankind

then Rand will take the dark one into himself. how this will close the bore, i have no idea but i think that Fain will play a role in that.

 

Probably Alivia will help taking the dark one into himself (Rand loses himself and thus dying)

 

Anybody an idea about this?

 

I had a similar thought to this. Something Min found in her research of Callandor was along the lines of using Callandor opens Rand up to being taken over by the Dark One. I also thought this meant he might have to bring the Dark One into himself and then sacrifice himself (with help dying from Alivia?) to defeat the Dark One.

[randsc]

I still don't get why neither Min nor Avi had told Rand that Elayne is pregnant, BTW.

 

Maybe Min got so drunk she forgot about the infamous viewing about Elayne's babies, but why didn't Avi told Rand when they were together in Arad Doman? Even Nynaeve could've told him after she learned about in ToM, yet she didn't. You'd have expected her to berate him for having premarital sex and babies out of wedlock against the Two Rivers customs. ;)

 

I guess Jordan has planned for it to be a major surprise for Rand and to affect the plot in some important way.

 

Imagine if you will that you are Elayne.

 

You have finally come to grips with the fact that the man you hope to marry is also in love with two other women - you're going to have to share him for whatever time he has left before he's destined to sacrifice himself to save the world, or whatever... and both of these other women, however much you may like them, have been to bed with him already... and one of them is constantly with him as he's off traveling the world without you. But hey, even if you're the last to bed him, you'll be the first to have his babies!

 

How utterly pissed off would you be if someone else decided to be the one to break the happy news?

 

Perhaps Min and Aviendha are conscious of how this would make Elayne feel, and don't think it's their place to tell Rand.

 

Maybe Elayne better get around to it, then. As it is, since she is showing, hundreds if not thousands of people know, but not the father.

 

Bad form, that.

[Callern]

I had a similar thought to this. Something Min found in her research of Callandor was along the lines of using Callandor opens Rand up to being taken over by the Dark One. I also thought this meant he might have to bring the Dark One into himself and then sacrifice himself (with help dying from Alivia?) to defeat the Dark One.

 

I fint the bodyswap theory more likely with Moridin. I couldn't really see the DO bothing to jump into Rand's body. And even if he does, he did not have any body in the first place, so who can tell what the cause of killing Rand would do?

Most likely, you would end up with a dead Rand, and a free DO. Unless you balefired Rand while the DO is inside of him. This would cause alot of other problems. The Dragon thread would be removed from existence, and I would guess that this means that the Dragon can not be reborn at another time. And he WILL be needed again, as the Wheel spins.

And another problem with the balefire thing would be if it would work on the DO. I allways thought that something had to be physical for balefire to touch it, and the DO is not physical, as far as I know.

 

I might be wrong tho...

 

Personally, I do not believe that Rand will kill, or even be able to kill, the DO.

First off, If he could be killed, why didn't the Creator just do it? He either could not, or would not. If the Creator by any change just put him there to have fun, just so he could have a great laugh while pissing off Mat, I'll eat the a wide brimmed hat.

My guess is that the DO is needed for the balance between good and evil (the golden mean).

He should not be killed.

Rand Sedai + Seals =

[capuga]

I had a similar thought to this. Something Min found in her research of Callandor was along the lines of using Callandor opens Rand up to being taken over by the Dark One. I also thought this meant he might have to bring the Dark One into himself and then sacrifice himself (with help dying from Alivia?) to defeat the Dark One.

 

I fint the bodyswap theory more likely with Moridin. I couldn't really see the DO bothing to jump into Rand's body. And even if he does, he did not have any body in the first place, so who can tell what the cause of killing Rand would do?

Most likely, you would end up with a dead Rand, and a free DO. Unless you balefired Rand while the DO is inside of him. This would cause alot of other problems. The Dragon thread would be removed from existence, and I would guess that this means that the Dragon can not be reborn at another time. And he WILL be needed again, as the Wheel spins.

And another problem with the balefire thing would be if it would work on the DO. I allways thought that something had to be physical for balefire to touch it, and the DO is not physical, as far as I know.

 

I might be wrong tho...

 

Personally, I do not believe that Rand will kill, or even be able to kill, the DO.

First off, If he could be killed, why didn't the Creator just do it? He either could not, or would not. If the Creator by any change just put him there to have fun, just so he could have a great laugh while pissing off Mat, I'll eat the a wide brimmed hat.

My guess is that the DO is needed for the balance between good and evil (the golden mean).

He should not be killed.

Rand Sedai + Seals =

 

It's definately a very rough draft stage theory. I just think that feature of Callandor that Min found (opening up Rand to the Dark One) has to come into play somehow. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I believe the Dark One can be killed. I used to think yes but lately I've been leaning more towards no. That's why the theory of Fain taking the Dark One's place intrigues me - it allows for Rand to slay the Dark One as still maintain an evil presence for the good vs evil balance.

 

In regards to balefire - RJ has stated that it does not prevent a soul from being reborn. So Rand could be balefired and the Dragon soul would still be reborn in the future.

[Callern]

It's definately a very rough draft stage theory. I just think that feature of Callandor that Min found (opening up Rand to the Dark One) has to come into play somehow. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I believe the Dark One can be killed. I used to think yes but lately I've been leaning more towards no. That's why the theory of Fain taking the Dark One's place intrigues me - it allows for Rand to slay the Dark One as still maintain an evil presence for the good vs evil balance.

 

In regards to balefire - RJ has stated that it does not prevent a soul from being reborn. So Rand could be balefired and the Dragon soul would still be reborn in the future.

 

Thanks, I did not know that RJ had said that.

And yes, it's a very basic theory, but there's so many options out there. I'm just not conviced that a guy, even if he is LTT, would be able to match the DO when it comes to pure strenght, even with a sa'angeral. Just my opinion tho. After all, there's been so much written about the seals, and they kept poppin' up through the series. I find it a little, umm, cheap, for RJ to just give us a "Oh, damn, that did not work!", as we still don't know why they keep being discovered, nor why the DO just didn't kill Rand to begin with (as I believe this has something to do with the seals).

The Fain theory is intriguing indeed. However, that he would take the DO's place, I find a little far-fetched as Fain himself is a struggle of the balance between good and evil.

Don't get me wrong tho, I'm not saying that it isn't feasible.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I wonder if Rand is still running through that list in his head of all the women he feels resposible for or if he has forgiven himself for their deaths. (before I get attacked, I'm well aware a few women on that list like min and moraine are still alive and well)

 

 

The entire women list is simply Rand being chronically obsessive compulsive and also using it as a marker to stave off insanity by lucidly fanatically micro-analyzing on a small detail.

[Ba' alzamon]

I dont think he has turned into the man Tam wanted him to be, i think he has finally become what he was meant to be because he isnt just rand, he is LTT and we have to remember that they arnt two differant people but are the same soul and person. When the voice of LTT left rands head it was because rand realized they wernt two differant people but the same. The dark one tryed to lure him with the true power and im intereested in how thats going to play out because he still has the ability to use it. But in TGS LTT tells us that the true power is actualy the dark one himself so i believe thats going to be a factor in the last battle.

[Ba' alzamon]

I had a similar thought to this. Something Min found in her research of Callandor was along the lines of using Callandor opens Rand up to being taken over by the Dark One. I also thought this meant he might have to bring the Dark One into himself and then sacrifice himself (with help dying from Alivia?) to defeat the Dark One.

 

I fint the bodyswap theory more likely with Moridin. I couldn't really see the DO bothing to jump into Rand's body. And even if he does, he did not have any body in the first place, so who can tell what the cause of killing Rand would do?

Most likely, you would end up with a dead Rand, and a free DO. Unless you balefired Rand while the DO is inside of him. This would cause alot of other problems. The Dragon thread would be removed from existence, and I would guess that this means that the Dragon can not be reborn at another time. And he WILL be needed again, as the Wheel spins.

And another problem with the balefire thing would be if it would work on the DO. I allways thought that something had to be physical for balefire to touch it, and the DO is not physical, as far as I know.

 

I might be wrong tho...

 

Personally, I do not believe that Rand will kill, or even be able to kill, the DO.

First off, If he could be killed, why didn't the Creator just do it? He either could not, or would not. If the Creator by any change just put him there to have fun, just so he could have a great laugh while pissing off Mat, I'll eat the a wide brimmed hat.

My guess is that the DO is needed for the balance between good and evil (the golden mean).

He should not be killed.

Rand Sedai + Seals =

 

It's definately a very rough draft stage theory. I just think that feature of Callandor that Min found (opening up Rand to the Dark One) has to come into play somehow. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I believe the Dark One can be killed. I used to think yes but lately I've been leaning more towards no. That's why the theory of Fain taking the Dark One's place intrigues me - it allows for Rand to slay the Dark One as still maintain an evil presence for the good vs evil balance.

 

In regards to balefire - RJ has stated that it does not prevent a soul from being reborn. So Rand could be balefired and the Dragon soul would still be reborn in the future.

 

 

If balefire does no prevent a soul from being reborn then why does the dark one just make all the forsaken that rand has balefired come back. and even if your correct and your able to be reborn from balefire, there wouldnt be a world to be born back into because with rand gone the darkone would destroy the wheel of time and everything would perish

[Jon Paul]

I'm just not conviced that a guy, even if he is LTT, would be able to match the DO when it comes to pure strenght, even with a sa'angeral.

 

Don't think of Rand Sedai's fight with the Dark One in terms of the One Power (or True Power if you subscribe to those theories). It's not about strength in the Power. That's what Rand Sedai realises when he does away with the Choedan Kal. Rand Sedai himself, his existence, is anathema to the Dark One. Rand Sedai's reason for being is to bring order to the Pattern, to fix the chaos. The Dark One is Chaos. It's basically going to be a staring contest between Shai'tan and the Lord Dragon in my opinion.

[anotherfingolfin]

Rand's (or others', like Mat's) obsession with not killing women never sat well with me. It just didn't seem to gel with the internal logic of the universe. The generalisation in WoT society is that it is a converse of the largely patriarchal elements of traditional society in our world. RJ did this beautifully, showing how the social structure of Randland makes so much sense, due to the way things have evolved post-breaking. It just seems to me that making characters in this world have qualms against hurting females- as is common the real world- does not fit, and was done as some sort of pandering. I mean, this is not a society where tany notion of 'weak' females exists.

 

EDIT: Typos.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Precisely. The over-arching emotion that women are weak and fragile, so therefore must be cherished and protected is one of the strongest patriarchal and misogynist traits that exist. It's a result of the male putting the female on the same level as a child and not viewing them as their equal. It seems completely at odds with the Randland universe and leads me to conclude that Rand is at heart an extreme misogynist who sees females as being inherently weak with a contempt strong enough that he feels they have no place being near any sort of danger.

[capuga]

I had a similar thought to this. Something Min found in her research of Callandor was along the lines of using Callandor opens Rand up to being taken over by the Dark One. I also thought this meant he might have to bring the Dark One into himself and then sacrifice himself (with help dying from Alivia?) to defeat the Dark One.

 

I fint the bodyswap theory more likely with Moridin. I couldn't really see the DO bothing to jump into Rand's body. And even if he does, he did not have any body in the first place, so who can tell what the cause of killing Rand would do?

Most likely, you would end up with a dead Rand, and a free DO. Unless you balefired Rand while the DO is inside of him. This would cause alot of other problems. The Dragon thread would be removed from existence, and I would guess that this means that the Dragon can not be reborn at another time. And he WILL be needed again, as the Wheel spins.

And another problem with the balefire thing would be if it would work on the DO. I allways thought that something had to be physical for balefire to touch it, and the DO is not physical, as far as I know.

 

I might be wrong tho...

 

Personally, I do not believe that Rand will kill, or even be able to kill, the DO.

First off, If he could be killed, why didn't the Creator just do it? He either could not, or would not. If the Creator by any change just put him there to have fun, just so he could have a great laugh while pissing off Mat, I'll eat the a wide brimmed hat.

My guess is that the DO is needed for the balance between good and evil (the golden mean).

He should not be killed.

Rand Sedai + Seals =

 

It's definately a very rough draft stage theory. I just think that feature of Callandor that Min found (opening up Rand to the Dark One) has to come into play somehow. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I believe the Dark One can be killed. I used to think yes but lately I've been leaning more towards no. That's why the theory of Fain taking the Dark One's place intrigues me - it allows for Rand to slay the Dark One as still maintain an evil presence for the good vs evil balance.

 

In regards to balefire - RJ has stated that it does not prevent a soul from being reborn. So Rand could be balefired and the Dragon soul would still be reborn in the future.

 

 

If balefire does no prevent a soul from being reborn then why does the dark one just make all the forsaken that rand has balefired come back. and even if your correct and your able to be reborn from balefire, there wouldnt be a world to be born back into because with rand gone the darkone would destroy the wheel of time and everything would perish

 

Here's the quotes:

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

 

It was...mentioned that balefire does not mean that someone can’t be reborn into the Pattern. I was very surprised by this and hadn’t heard it before, but apparently Brandon has said it in previous Q&A sessions. Brandon said he was also surprised but that Maria was very insistent about this – so if the Dragon Reborn was balefired, he could still be reborn.

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Chester County Books, Philadelphia 6 November 2009 - Paul Grow reporting

 

 

Brandon said someone killed by balefire could be reborn and woven back into the Pattern later, but the Dark One cannot resurrect that person.

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

The Path of Daggers book tour 21 November 1998, VA - John Novak reporting

 

Balefire: If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Pattern as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

 

I agree that the world is screwed if Rand is balefired or killed before he can defeat the Dark One. What I was saying was that if balefire is used in the process of defeating the Dark One, it wouldn't prevent the Dragon soul from being reborn to save the world in a future age.

[anotherfingolfin]

Precisely. The over-arching emotion that women are weak and fragile, so therefore must be cherished and protected is one of the strongest patriarchal and misogynist traits that exist. It's a result of the male putting the female on the same level as a child and not viewing them as their equal. It seems completely at odds with the Randland universe and leads me to conclude that Rand is at heart an extreme misogynist who sees females as being inherently weak with a contempt strong enough that he feels they have no place being near any sort of danger.

 

Well, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions about the writer's personal beliefs, but yeah, it is a major weakness in his writing. The thing is, I bet he wrote it to make the TR boys more endearing by making them seem more chivalrous/innocent; because at the end of the day, the readers are hold to sensibilities/norms of our world. I could accept this, but it got too much when other characters start finding this charming- as Tuon does with Mat. When in-world, it is seen as endearing, not neurotic, it's jumping the shark.

I understand how Rand's list of women is a very important part of his character development, and is supposed to evoke deep pathos, but the more i learned about Randland, the less palusible it seemed.

[Callern]

I'm just not conviced that a guy, even if he is LTT, would be able to match the DO when it comes to pure strenght, even with a sa'angeral.

 

Don't think of Rand Sedai's fight with the Dark One in terms of the One Power (or True Power if you subscribe to those theories). It's not about strength in the Power. That's what Rand Sedai realises when he does away with the Choedan Kal. Rand Sedai himself, his existence, is anathema to the Dark One. Rand Sedai's reason for being is to bring order to the Pattern, to fix the chaos. The Dark One is Chaos. It's basically going to be a staring contest between Shai'tan and the Lord Dragon in my opinion.

 

My point exactly, tho I was not clear enough it seems.

[draconian]

Precisely. The over-arching emotion that women are weak and fragile, so therefore must be cherished and protected is one of the strongest patriarchal and misogynist traits that exist. It's a result of the male putting the female on the same level as a child and not viewing them as their equal. It seems completely at odds with the Randland universe and leads me to conclude that Rand is at heart an extreme misogynist who sees females as being inherently weak with a contempt strong enough that he feels they have no place being near any sort of danger.

i doubt rand saw lanfear or graendal as weak ever and even his internal thoughts dont paint him as misogynist. through out the whole series he treats min as equal far more than the aes sedai or other women. rand's unreasoning idea about women r a product of the randland's and two river's history as well as iyena's death. The idea that women must be protected was likely a product of the breaking and the trolloc wars during which total pop was greatly reduced and the death of a woman reduced societies ability to grow and continue while a man's death doesnt mean much. remember the two river was directly invaded during the trolloc wars during which men and women both fought in defense of manetheren. these wars were over 350 years and society had to protect its women so the ranks could be refilled and so that humanity could continue to exist. this is why protecting women is so strongly ingrained in the two rivers and the borderlands.

[Callern]

Anybody know why Rand wanted Hurin in Far Madding?

[FarShainMael]

He wanted to apologise for the way he had treated him previously, wrapping him up in Air and bullying him (TGS 44).

[Callern]

He wanted to apologise for the way he had treated him previously, wrapping him up in Air and bullying him (TGS 44).

He did that to Hurin ? When?

[yoshinobu]

He wanted to apologise for the way he had treated him previously, wrapping him up in Air and bullying him (TGS 44).

He did that to Hurin ? When?

He did that in TGS

[Callern]

Damn, I'm forgetting more and more. Thanks both,, going to look it up!

[FarShainMael]

Of course, Hurin is a sniffer, and on that occasion, Rand 'smelled' really dark and evil to him.. wonder what he 'smells' like now..

[garion]

Rand probably smells like sugar spice and everything nice...

[FarShainMael]