November Legends Discussion - CLEOPATRA

[Talya]

This is November Discussion, you can earn points here for taking part, to get them you must write more than a line or two!

SPAMMING WILL BE DELETED!

 

 

 

CLEOPATRA

 

Cleopatra VII

 

69 BC – 30 BC

 

Last person to Rule Egypt as an Egyptian Pharaoh.

 

 

When her father died he left his Kingdom to Cleopatra (18) and her younger Ptolemy XIII (12). She was a descendant of Alexander the Great’s Generals, who seized control of Egypt after Alexander died.

 

 

She was supposed to co rule with her brother (whom she was forced to marry so that she had a consort), however she soon dropped his name from official documents and her portrait and name were on the coins of that time.

 

Things at this time were not too good in Egypt, anarchy abroad, famine at home, things were not going well at all for the Ptolemies. The Romans were slowly taking hold of Egypt and they could nothing but create a pact with them.

 

 

Cleopatra was strong willed and was not going to let Egypt fall. Whether what she did was for her own desires or for the pursuit of power we will never know. But it seems that she had no other lovers than Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony and did what she did to save Alexandria.

 

 

She has been portrayed as a seductive queen, A brilliant tactician even a dumb blonde (only black haired…see Carry on Cleo!).

 

 

No doubt then that she is a legend, one of the first girls with power that kicked butt when she needed to!

 

 

What are your opinions of this iconic Queen?

 

 

[Talmanes]

Well I'll admit that I don't know a ton about Cleopatra, though I did see the old movie. I was always somewhat more interested in Ptolmey, though she was indeed important. I suppose I took the view of the movie which was to purvey as you said that she was to have been very beautiful, but I think more importantly was the fact that she was obviously also quite smart and quite a politician and tactician. I'd say it can be fairly easily be seen that she was devoted to her country a good sum, but also saw saving her own skin as important too, as any reasonable person would. By her willingness to do anything it took to protect her country and place among it we can see that she was a very determined and unrelenting woman. This is especially interesting in my opinion just because at the time 'strong women' were a rarity and for a long time after that as well.

 

I'll leave it at that for now and let someone else put something up.

[Tiinker]

Well Cleopatra's ancestor was Alexander the Great which is something which I find to be one of the coolest and most awesome historical figures along with Genghis Kahn and Hercules and the lot. Ancient History in general is pretty cool and I was thinking of doing a year in Egypt when the time came to learn about them and their history :)

About Cleopatra I know she was portrayed to be the Egyptian Goddess of Magic, Isis in alot of cases and even announced that she was Isis reincarnated in a human body. I'm not sure if her relationship with Caeser was purely political because right afterward he helped her take the throne and then her son with Caesor would be eligible for the title of Emperor but I'm not sure really.. in a WoT concept .. Berelain?

[Talya]

I'm not so sure as I would put her to Berelain. I don't think she was a flirt with anyone, though I can see the resemblance when you think of using who was around her to protect her small state. Cleopatra did the same. I always her imagine her to be a striking woman with intelligence, confidence and wit, rather than skin deep beauty.

 

She was actually a descendant from one of Alexander the Great's Generals rather than him. As for her son, Caesar was already married and so I don't think their son would have been eligible to succeed him directly, but I believe that he was still killed after she died to make sure that he didn't try. I'm sure she had children with Mark Anthony as well and they were killed too.

 

 

 

 

[Tiinker]

Yea Ptolemy who ruled in Egypt when his empire got split sorry messed that part up a bit. Let someone else take over now..

[mcs0083]

To me Cleopatra is more like Faile then anyone else I can think of. Like you mentioned Talya, she has that intelligence and wit that makes her stand out. In the WoT, Faile is not described as the most beautiful woman in the book. At times even Perrin catches himself looking at some of the other ladies lol But he always teminds himself that he loves Faile for who she is, and to him that makes her more beautiful then any other woman. Cleo was able to get Caesar and Mark Anthony to fall in love with her because her charm played a great deal into it. Like you said Talya, Caesar was already married, and I believe at that time it was to his third wife, Calpurnia Pisonis. But yeah, Octavian pretty much killed all the kids she had with Caesar or Antony.

[Kemian]

Cleopatra VII was the last Queen of Egypt and the last pharaoh. Following her death, and after the Ancient Egyptian civilisation had spanned over 3000 years, Egypt became a Roman province

 

The interesting thing here as well is that despite being an Egyptian Queen/Pharoah, Cleopatra was actually of Macedonian/Greek origin.

 

Cleopatra Thea Philopator VII was her full name and had a sister(one of 3) also called cleopatra and was only distinguished by their middle names.

 

Ill come back with more later on

[Talya]

You;re right Kemian, The Greeks conquered Egypt with Alexander the Great. In fatc I think she was one of the first Pharaohs after that that learnt Egyptian instead of Greek. She really wanted Egypt to be all powerful again.

 

I think her sister were executed at some point, and I have a feeling she wasn't the oldest sister. But I could be wrong.

[Lessa Nikia]

I love Cleopatra in fact I did a powerpoint presintation back when I was in grade 6 for extra credit It's a shame none of her children were allowed to live She is a very facinating leader

[Kemian]

Tayla - I found this on her sisters and brothers after you mentioned them :- Cleopatra had two elder sisters, Cleopatra VI and Berenice IV as well as a younger sister, Arsinoe IV

Cleopatra also had two younger brothers, Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV, whom she both married and ruled Egypt with.

 

I think your right about one of them being executed, I have a feeling it was the youngest sister but I cant find anything about her yet. Ill keep looking thouh

[Talya]

I agree with you Lessa, I think she is very fascinating.

 

Kemain, That sounds right about her sisters etc. I'll see if I can find something too.

 

I can understand what you are saying about Faile MC, I'm not a great fan of hers, but I think the determination and strength of character are cvery similar.

 

I can understand what she did, when your whole Kingdom is in trouble, you would do what you had to to keep it as safe as possible, despite the conflicts going on around it.

 

It would have been good to have her children survive, but they could not allow the chance of either one of them trying for Rome, or rallying Egyptians to their cause and rising up against the Romans.

[Talmanes]

Actually based on some of the later actions of Berelain, I think she makes a great comparison to Cleopatra, although she does have some similar traits to Faile as well. Mostly I think she compares to Berelain in the fact that they both did whatever they had to, to defend their kingdoms, and keep them from being taken over, while both were also against a much bigger and stronger force.

[Lessa Nikia]

I totally agree Talmanes

[Blueberry]

I don't think anyone in the conversation has touched on this yet- but Cleopatra's death has been said to be one of the most intriguing of all time. It's said that she took her own life while being imprisoned (Not old fashioned dungeon style imprisonment though- fancy rehab imprisonment) To save herself from being humiliated. When she was discovered dead in her golden bed (Thats right. Golden) by guards, she was found with two prick marks in her arms.. Apparently she arranged a huge fancy ol' meal for herself and had a venomous snake hidden in a basket of figs... But there are contrary tales to this.. Some say she was assasinated, some say otherwise... Any inputs on this?

[Talya]

I'm not sure she was imprisoned, but I had heard the same thing. She was defeated and barricaded her self in one of the temples/palaces. The roman who defeated Mark Anthony (can't remember who...Brutus?) was hoping to make an alliance himself, but she put an asp to her breast and killed herself (according to Hollywood!) but close enough! I think she did it also because she's heard Mark Anthony was entombed, but he was actually hiding in a tomb. By the time he got to her it was too late and she had died, so he killed himself as well.

 

Although this is a very Romantic, I would have thought that you were more on the mark and it was to do with humilation and defeat, though I'm not saying love played no part (hey I'm a romantic underneath it all...somewhere, if I didn't eat so much chocolate I could find it!)

[Tiinker]

I'm not sure she was imprisoned, but I had heard the same thing. She was defeated and barricaded her self in one of the temples/palaces. The roman who defeated Mark Anthony (can't remember who...Brutus?) was hoping to make an alliance himself, but she put an asp to her breast and killed herself (according to Hollywood!) but close enough! I think she did it also because she's heard Mark Anthony was entombed, but he was actually hiding in a tomb. By the time he got to her it was too late and she had died, so he killed himself as well.

 

Although this is a very Romantic, I would have thought that you were more on the mark and it was to do with humilation and defeat, though I'm not saying love played no part (hey I'm a romantic underneath it all...somewhere, if I didn't eat so much chocolate I could find it!)

 

Hmmm Romeo and Juliet? :)

 

I thought that Mark Anthony essentially sacrificed himself for her.. Meaning he stood up to someone or paid for one of her mistakes and because of it she took her own life to join him. Something or other..!

[Lessa Nikia]

She wasn't really "imprisoned" per say. She locked herself in a temple (I think), Mark Anthony had to climb through a window to get to her and she killed herself because she thought it would save her kingdom. She made a poisonous snake bite her and yeah it was a Golden bed/couch she died on.

 

It was another Cesear(spelt wrong I think) who defeated Anthony, I think.

[Talya]

I think she thought Mark Anthony had sacrificed himself for her, which is why she committed suicide (though as we have said I'm sure there were other reasons).

[Lessa Nikia]

I believe you are right beautiful Tayla

[Talmanes]

She usually is.

[charis sedai]

Actually, as unromantic as this is, She was really not all that attractive. There are old images of her on old Egyptian coins, and welllll... she was NOT a looker. Granted, the images may not be totally accurate, but still. In addition, she would have worn the traditional costuming of her Station, including the double crown, and false beard. (shown below) Also, she actually cost Marc Antony his half of the Roman empire when she turned her barge away from the battle, and he ran after her. In all likelihood, he would have lost anyway, but we'll never know.

 

One thing is for certain. Cleopatra was a very strong willed, smart, canny woman. She held Egypt together for years after the Romans really wanted it (ok, the Romans wanted it for a LONG time, since before Cleo was born)

 

My understanding of her death is that she took her own life rather than live under the rule of the Romans, as they were coming for her empire. Also, there is some question of whether she would have been allowed to survive, considering her supposed lover had committed multiple offenses against the Empire.

 

uh... yeah. I know a lot about Egypt... I'm fascinated. And I took a history class about ancient Greece and Rome last Spring.

[Talmanes]

*wonders when the 'November' discussion ends*

lol

[charis sedai]

you hush >_>

 

 

not my fault.

 

I was bored. It was here.

 

 

 

like those cookies...

[Talmanes]

lol I just meant in general

[Talya]

15pts to all below:

 

Talya

Talm

Tiinker

MCS

Kemian

Lessa

Mae

charis sedai