Moiraine

[WhiskyJack]

Personally, I'm intrigued by her statement that "With it I'll be very strong, stronger in the Power than before I was taken." about a page after she said that she wasn't as strong as she used to be, even with the Angreal. Confusing.

 

Um, no she didn't.

 

Thanks for the polite and constructive reply. That really helped clarify things.

 

What else is there to say? She didn't say that. What am I supposed to show you? It's a simple either/or thing.

 

 

Which one, she said that she wasn't as strong in the power as she used to be and she also said that she'll be stronger in the power.

 

 

Both are true but later part of your statement is missing an angreal. R e a d ....c ar e fully next time;)

[WhiskyJack]

Anyways, at last this settles it. Lanfear wasn't healed by a woman.

 

So the other question that remains is, is decrease in strength due to healing by the same gender a fixed amount or a percentage? That we may never find out (not like it's relevent to the last battle anyways)

 

 

Lanfear was not healed at all. Lanfear did die. We know that because we have Cyndane now.

[Shimmer]

I think that Moiraine's strength of character is more to do with her personality rather than her strength in the Power but I am still relieved that she wasn't stilled/severed. But it would be interesting to find out what were the other 2 questions she asked...Thoughts? I for one am hoping they were something related to using the Power to help Rand at TG.

[Duskfire]

I think that Moiraine's strength of character is more to do with her personality rather than her strength in the Power but I am still relieved that she wasn't stilled/severed. But it would be interesting to find out what were the other 2 questions she asked...Thoughts? I for one am hoping they were something related to using the Power to help Rand at TG.

 

Moraine: Can I have that bracelet

Finns: Yes

Moiraine: Really?

Finns: Yes

Moiraine: Are you sure?

Finns: Yes

 

In all seriousness, I imagine they would both have to do with Rand. Maybe learning some old forgotten weave that she read about in the Age of Legends. Maybe gaining a talent (if the Finns are able to give you that.)

[Demon_AS]

Anyways, at last this settles it. Lanfear wasn't healed by a woman.

 

So the other question that remains is, is decrease in strength due to healing by the same gender a fixed amount or a percentage? That we may never find out (not like it's relevent to the last battle anyways)

Having just thought about it, I think they are restored to a fixed percentage of what they used to be able to channel. The weaves are a fixed quantity, so we can assume they work the same way every time - imperfectly restoring the "link" or "channel" between a person's mind and saidar when Healing is performed by a person using saidar.

 

There are strong hints throughout the series that suggest that male and female Aes Sedai working together with the one power achieves far more than they can individually (cleaning of the taint being another example besides Healing), which makes me think that it's a One Power issue rather than a specific gender issue.

 

In other words, I think it's a reflection of how there are some things that men can do for women which other women can't, and vice versa.

[Demon_AS]

I think that Moiraine's strength of character is more to do with her personality rather than her strength in the Power but I am still relieved that she wasn't stilled/severed. But it would be interesting to find out what were the other 2 questions she asked...Thoughts? I for one am hoping they were something related to using the Power to help Rand at TG.

The fanboy in my dislikes Moiraine's reduction in Power, and therefore wishes she'd been severed. Rand has many Asha'man at his beck and call, I am sure he could've found one to restore her to maximum potential again. As it stands now, I doubt anyone's going to confirm whether stilling Moiraine and healing her would restore her back to normal, seeing as she can still channel and it was conveniently mentioned that she has an exceptionally powerful angreal which makes her more Powerful than she was before.

 

Anyway, this all leads me to conclude that what the Finn "ate" was Moiraine's "potential"... which is a fixed amount, and therefore irreplaceable. in other words, even if she were stilled and Healed again by a man, she'd have have same amount of Power as she does now, as it's her "capacity" to channel that's been reduced.

[johthohar]

But some time did pass between when Siuan was stilled and when people started noticing her new look. And it does take some time after swearing the Oaths to gain the ageless face.

 

No, she lost it pretty much immediately. Re-read when Min rescues her: she notices straight off that the women in the cell don't look ageless, and isn't sure it's really Siuan until she talks.

 

What I'm referring to is the time between when Siuan was actually stilled and the first POV afterward where she is noted. The first time it is shown that her ageless look is gone is a day or more (if I'm not mistaken) after she is deposed. Min doesn't see her before then. Other than her guards (who arguably might not have seen her since her initial incarceration) nobody sees her changed face before Min (again I may be wrong about this).

[johthohar]

Anyway, this all leads me to conclude that what the Finn "ate" was Moiraine's "potential"... which is a fixed amount, and therefore irreplaceable. in other words, even if she were stilled and Healed again by a man, she'd have have same amount of Power as she does now, as it's her "capacity" to channel that's been reduced.

 

If that were the case why have her wear the angreal? It supplements the amount of Power one can draw. Not one's actual potential.

[Sharaman]

Anyways, at last this settles it. Lanfear wasn't healed by a woman.

 

So the other question that remains is, is decrease in strength due to healing by the same gender a fixed amount or a percentage? That we may never find out (not like it's relevent to the last battle anyways)

 

Lanfear almost certainly was healed by a woman.

She needed a new body = had died.

[Deadsy]

Lanfear almost certainly was healed by a woman.

She needed a new body = had died.

 

No. There is definitely no certainty about it. It's a possibility.

 

We have no prior knowledge of whether someone regains power they lost to the Finns upon being born again. The most obvious explanation (to me) though I'm not "certain" of it, is that the Finns drained part of her Power, and then she died. When she was reborn she regained the power she'd had left: the power the Finns hadn't takent. It's been discussed elsewhere that the man who entered asked the Finns to kill her. He wouldn't have entered if she was already dead.

[Sharaman]

Lanfear almost certainly was healed by a woman.

She needed a new body = had died.

 

No. There is definitely no certainty about it. It's a possibility.

 

We have no prior knowledge of whether someone regains power they lost to the Finns upon being born again. The most obvious explanation (to me) though I'm not "certain" of it, is that the Finns drained part of her Power, and then she died. When she was reborn she regained the power she'd had left: the power the Finns hadn't takent. It's been discussed elsewhere that the man who entered asked the Finns to kill her. He wouldn't have entered if she was already dead.

Almost certainly.

Simplest way to deal with loss of power is to still her and heal her, killing and transmigrating if required.

[WhiskyJack]

Loss of power is not the same thing as one who is shielded! Those who get stilled have all their power. How can you still someone who has no power to begin with? And you are making it sound like healing a stilling is dime a dozen thing now. I really doubt that any one in WT (and that includes BA) has the kind of skill that Nyn has. Just knowing the weave is not enough. I am pretty sure healing a severing will remain a domain of very very selective group, those men and women who are way way above normal in healing.

[Sharaman]

Loss of power is not the same thing as one who is shielded!

No it isn't - why did you think it is? when did you discover the difference?

 

Those who get stilled have all their power.

No they lose all their power.

 

How can you still someone who has no power to begin with? And you are making it sound like healing a stilling is dime a dozen thing now. I really doubt that any one in WT (and that includes BA) has the kind of skill that Nyn has. Just knowing the weave is not enough. I am pretty sure healing a severing will remain a domain of very very selective group, those men and women who are way way above normal in healing.

 

Read LoC again - dozens of women in Salidar harassed Nyn because they wanted to learn her methods of healing including healing stilling. At least one of them, Dagdara is a very talented Yellow healer and BA to boot.

Also, at two of the FS are themselves talented healers - one was the very best in her age. It's kind of likely they would have been interested in learning the method.

[WhiskyJack]

Loss of power is not the same thing as one who is shielded!

No it isn't - why did you think it is? when did you discover the difference?

 

Your answer is no or yes?

 

Those who get stilled have all their power.

No they lose all their power.

 

I meant they had power in the beginning. Those who are drained completely are without any power meaning they become non-channeler. You cannot "sever" those who cannot channel.

 

How can you still someone who has no power to begin with? And you are making it sound like healing a stilling is dime a dozen thing now. I really doubt that any one in WT (and that includes BA) has the kind of skill that Nyn has. Just knowing the weave is not enough. I am pretty sure healing a severing will remain a domain of very very selective group, those men and women who are way way above normal in healing.

 

Read LoC again - dozens of women in Salidar harassed Nyn because they wanted to learn her methods of healing including healing stilling. At least one of them, Dagdara is a very talented Yellow healer and BA to boot.

Also, at two of the FS are themselves talented healers - one was the very best in her age. It's kind of likely they would have been interested in learning the method.

 

 

Again, just because you can see something doesn't mean you can duplicate it. So what if 50000 Aes Sedai saw the weaves, they are sub-par as for as Nyn is concerned. Unless you think Semirhage was spying on Nyn,chances of anyone else capable of performing the feat at same level is very slim. We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

[Jeangray]

We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

 

IIRC, there was a span of time between Nynaeve's discovery of how to Heal severing and Flinn duplicating her feat. Maybe Landane was Healed then. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Healing Talent is more common in women than in men? There may not be another male channeler capable of doing it.

[WhiskyJack]

We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

 

IIRC, there was a span of time between Nynaeve discovery of how to Heal severing and Flinn duplicating her feat. Maybe Landane was Healed then. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Healing Talent is more common in women than in men? There may not be another male channeler capable of doing it.

 

 

Well this whole discussion is based on 50000 assumptions.

[sleepinghour]

This completely contradicts what Rand himself said. He wants two people he trusts. He doesn't care how strong they are. The point of callandor is obviously that it's saidar+saidin and some other property it has that we're unsure of. If it was strength that mattered he wouldn't have destroyed the CK.

 

As long as the two women are linked with Rand, they'll have access to an enormous amount of Power through Callandor. At that point, it might not matter how strong the women are. But Rand knows he's more than likely to die, and then the two women will be left to fend for themselves and Callandor a useless crystal sword. They'll have a better chance of surviving that if they're strong enough to fight off any attacking Forsaken or hordes of Shadowspawn and Travel back.

 

Moiraine is very strong with the angreal, but using angreal is also much more tiring. I'm not against Moiraine being the second woman, but Rand would be better off using Alivia who knows just about every battle weave and is strong enough that she doesn't need any angreal. There's also Min's viewing about Alivia helping him die.

[Tiinker]

After having all these years of build up on her return I kinda wished it would've lasted longer. It was only about a chapter and the Tower of Ghenjei in my mind was this awesome place filled with mazes and traps and things that were really mystical and would just blow your mind reading. I know Matt lost and eye and Jain died but it seemed almost too easy.. Wish Noal's identity reveal was a bit more climatic. And Moiraine being depowered bleh.. I was always hoping she'd merged with Lanfear

[Tiinker]

And its also doubtful that her other demands have anything to do with channeling because after she offers to throw away the angreal for Thom. But stilling and then healing could work couldn't it? The Finns drained Lanfear too quickly which was why she died which means that she should've lost all her power so bringing her back wouldn't have made a difference. But she is back and still strong***. Not as strong as before but no way as weak as Moiraine is now, so healing.. maybe :) sure hope so!

[sleepinghour]

If Moiraine just released Lan from his bond than he wouldn't have felt the suicide urges.

 

To me all we see is Lan acting like his companion for the last 20 years just died. He kind of went back to the way he was pre Moiraine post killing his friend, all I have to die alone fighting the blight.

 

RJ said Lan is suffering from the severing effect (see quote below). This can't be the result of the bond simply being passed, as there were no negative effects when Myrelle passed it to Nynaeve in ToM.

 

RJ: Lan is undergoing the severing effect of his bond to Moiraine, which means that he has lost the desire and will to live, which is being restored to him by Nynaeve.

-- Netherlands Dromen and Demonen Chat - 6 April 2001

[johthohar]

And its also doubtful that her other demands have anything to do with channeling because after she offers to throw away the angreal for Thom. But stilling and then healing could work couldn't it? The Finns drained Lanfear too quickly which was why she died which means that she should've lost all her power so bringing her back wouldn't have made a difference. But she is back and still strong as ever. Not as strong as before but no way as weak as Moiraine is now, so healing.. maybe :) sure hope so!

 

Her offer to throw away the angreal is simply a demonstration of her commitment to Thom. Likely she knew he would never ask her to do so. It doesn't imply that her other two wishes had nothing to do with the OP. And even if she knew her ability to channel was going to be reduced who's to say her wishes had anything to do with her?

 

Also, how do you say "Lanfear is still strong as ever!" in the same breath as "Lanfear is not as strong as before."?? Just sayin....

[Tiinker]

And its also doubtful that her other demands have anything to do with channeling because after she offers to throw away the angreal for Thom. But stilling and then healing could work couldn't it? The Finns drained Lanfear too quickly which was why she died which means that she should've lost all her power so bringing her back wouldn't have made a difference. But she is back and still strong as ever. Not as strong as before but no way as weak as Moiraine is now, so healing.. maybe :) sure hope so!

 

Her offer to throw away the angreal is simply a demonstration of her commitment to Thom. Likely she knew he would never ask her to do so. It doesn't imply that her other two wishes had nothing to do with the OP. And even if she knew her ability to channel was going to be reduced who's to say her wishes had anything to do with her?

 

Also, how do you say "Lanfear is still strong as ever!" in the same breath as "Lanfear is not as strong as before."?? Just sayin....

 

Okay i was just brain storming i'll go edit. Not as strong as before. Still very strong.

[johthohar]

And its also doubtful that her other demands have anything to do with channeling because after she offers to throw away the angreal for Thom. But stilling and then healing could work couldn't it? The Finns drained Lanfear too quickly which was why she died which means that she should've lost all her power so bringing her back wouldn't have made a difference. But she is back and still strong as ever. Not as strong as before but no way as weak as Moiraine is now, so healing.. maybe :) sure hope so!

 

Her offer to throw away the angreal is simply a demonstration of her commitment to Thom. Likely she knew he would never ask her to do so. It doesn't imply that her other two wishes had nothing to do with the OP. And even if she knew her ability to channel was going to be reduced who's to say her wishes had anything to do with her?

 

Also, how do you say "Lanfear is still strong as ever!" in the same breath as "Lanfear is not as strong as before."?? Just sayin....

 

Okay i was just brain storming i'll go edit. Not as strong as before. Still very strong.

Haha! Don't mean to be too critical. I make similar mistakes all the time. I just notice these things and they bug me. Peace, friend.

[Sharaman]

We know that Flinn can do the same. Should I take that to next level and assume that bunch of DF male channelers learned the weave (or even a forsaken) and healed Lanfear? If they were healing her, it would make sense to do it right, right?

 

IIRC, there was a span of time between Nynaeve discovery of how to Heal severing and Flinn duplicating her feat. Maybe Landane was Healed then. Also, wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the Healing Talent is more common in women than in men? There may not be another male channeler capable of doing it.

Yes, Lanfear was resurrected and mindtrapped before Moghedien who escaped from Salidar before Dumai's Well. Only Nyn's healing method was known at that stage.

[Tiinker]

Haha! Don't mean to be too critical. I make similar mistakes all the time. I just notice these things and they bug me. Peace, friend.

 

No worries was good that you told me