HUGE unoticed thing

[Jblaylock]

but things like the horn, when used, tell us there is a wheel

 

 

Not exactly. The horn tells us there are beings from previous ages (still during the same rotation of the wheel) who still exist in Telerenrhiad (however the heck you spell that) though their bodies in the real world are long gone and dead. Those heroes of the horn are not from a previous turning of the wheel, but a previous age in the same turning.

[Demiandre]

They know because the author wanted them to know it. (I'm just breaking the temporary suspension of disbelief).

 

How could people think earth was the center of the solar sytem? How did people came to believe that the world was flat? Those are the same things :

They guessed. And maybe there are inaccuracies in those guess.

 

Something like religion is never really forgotten. It can be misremembered, it can be reshaped or else. If someone in the AoL or before discovered it after long studies on the matter, with serious proofs (with the Power presumably as we in our Age aren't aware of the Wheel concept, even though we seem to be the seventh or fourth age), the knowledge could have spread, and been extended to the whole population.

 

Then other beliefs arrived (DO bound in Shayol Ghul with the Forsaken at the moment of creation couldn't possibly exist before the Strike at Shayol Ghul, for instance.) And it became what we see in the book.

 

But trying to answer those question is breaking the whole magic of the universe. If all questions had answers, would it be fun to read the Wheel over and over?

 

@Jwillis7, no newcomers are not supposed to know everything, but a little search could indicate you if the same question had been asked already (I don't know if the vsearch fu.ction is working again, though). It's not that we are making fun of people not knowing everything, just that sometimes, some may get tired of reading the same question for a hundredth time.

 

And something that is answered in the very glossary of the book, beside. That is a neat difference between "is Olver Gaidal Cain" and the question of the number of Ages and the Wheel concept

[jwillis7]

 

@Jwillis7, no newcomers are not supposed to know everything, but a little search could indicate you if the same question had been asked already (I don't know if the vsearch fu.ction is working again, though). It's not that we are making fun of people not knowing everything, just that sometimes, some may get tired of reading the same question for a hundredth time.

 

And something that is answered in the very glossary of the book, beside. That is a neat difference between "is Olver Gaidal Cain" and the question of the number of Ages and the Wheel concept

and all i'm saying is there is no reason to belittle people; just link the answer, link the past thread, or tell where the answer is. If someone asks a "stupid" question just click off the thread no one forces you to read all new threads or respond to them.

[jwillis7]

but things like the horn, when used, tell us there is a wheel

 

 

Not exactly. The horn tells us there are beings from previous ages (still during the same rotation of the wheel) who still exist in Telerenrhiad (however the heck you spell that) though their bodies in the real world are long gone and dead. Those heroes of the horn are not from a previous turning of the wheel, but a previous age in the same turning.

but Artur Hawkwing says "...I have fought by your side times beyond number....The Wheel spins us out for its purposes" when he was called by the Horn. So it seems in TAR they remember everything and have absolute knowledge of the wheel.

[Jblaylock]

but things like the horn, when used, tell us there is a wheel

 

 

Not exactly. The horn tells us there are beings from previous ages (still during the same rotation of the wheel) who still exist in Telerenrhiad (however the heck you spell that) though their bodies in the real world are long gone and dead. Those heroes of the horn are not from a previous turning of the wheel, but a previous age in the same turning.

but Artur Hawkwing says "...I have fought by your side times beyond number....The Wheel spins us out for its purposes" when he was called by the Horn. So it seems in TAR they remember everything and have absolute knowledge of the wheel.

 

 

 

Hmmm. Interesting point. At least, it's interesting to me. If someone else comes along and says you're dumb and that I'm dumb for thinking it was interesting, and it's wrong because (...) then I say screw'em. I think your post makes sense.

[jwillis7]

but things like the horn, when used, tell us there is a wheel

 

 

Not exactly. The horn tells us there are beings from previous ages (still during the same rotation of the wheel) who still exist in Telerenrhiad (however the heck you spell that) though their bodies in the real world are long gone and dead. Those heroes of the horn are not from a previous turning of the wheel, but a previous age in the same turning.

but Artur Hawkwing says "...I have fought by your side times beyond number....The Wheel spins us out for its purposes" when he was called by the Horn. So it seems in TAR they remember everything and have absolute knowledge of the wheel.

 

 

 

Hmmm. Interesting point. At least, it's interesting to me. If someone else comes along and says you're dumb and that I'm dumb for thinking it was interesting, and it's wrong because (...) then I say screw'em. I think your post makes sense.

hahaha

[didymos]

The question I would like answered is this: if all, repeat all, memories of any given Age fade by the next turning, how do they know that there is such a thing as the Wheel?

 

I've asked that question before, and never got an answer.

 

Why do people get so bent over this? Nothing in the series says every Age knows about the Wheel. In fact, we know the Wheel is a more recent symbol than the Great Serpent. In any case, all that's needed for the series is a prior discovery of the nature of time recent enough that it hasn't been forgotten. The obvious candidate for that is the AoL.

[dovien]

The question I would like answered is this: if all, repeat all, memories of any given Age fade by the next turning, how do they know that there is such a thing as the Wheel?

Well for one thing each age mirrors the others in certain ways. For another there are often records from previous ages that may mention yet-earlier ages. Also, as mentioned, there are Heroes of the Horn who are spun out again and again and have a recollection of their past incarnations.

One could even conject that since a given age 'n' can't possibly be exactly the same as its repetition age 'n+7' then time must be linear after all and the Wheel is just an abstraction.

As well ask whether the Pattern exists if you ask me. It may just be an abstraction that helps people understand their lives in the fabric (there it goes again) of society but for all intents and purposes, in the scale of any given person's life, it may as well be taken as true.

[nophone]

RJ has refuted the accuracy of that book stating that the errors duein the book are based on knowledge as it is understood within the WoT universe, and not the author himself... cheep, really cheap.

[FarShainMael]

but things like the horn, when used, tell us there is a wheel

 

 

Not exactly. The horn tells us there are beings from previous ages (still during the same rotation of the wheel) who still exist in Telerenrhiad (however the heck you spell that) though their bodies in the real world are long gone and dead. Those heroes of the horn are not from a previous turning of the wheel, but a previous age in the same turning.

but Artur Hawkwing says "...I have fought by your side times beyond number....The Wheel spins us out for its purposes" when he was called by the Horn. So it seems in TAR they remember everything and have absolute knowledge of the wheel.

 

 

 

Hmmm. Interesting point. At least, it's interesting to me. If someone else comes along and says you're dumb and that I'm dumb for thinking it was interesting, and it's wrong because (...) then I say screw'em. I think your post makes sense.

 

It certainly does! There is only the requirement that this knowledge enters the living world somehow, as the Heroes don't normally recall their previous lives, or so Birgitte tells us. But that's OK, because AH would have said something like this to Rand/Ltt/..../whoever during each turning.

 

So that clears that one up!

[Demiandre]

No Birgit's memories fades with time. When pulled out of T'A'R, she remember some weird names and places. She remembered the funding of Tar Valon and all. But all those memories faded and are now gone, IIRC.

 

So as chanelling is linked with the Wheel (saidin and saidar driving it together). Does it means that an Age without chanelling mean no knowlegde of the Wheel? If tou know of the Wheel, you ought to know that there are two antagonist power drivi.g it, in which you can possibly tap.

 

So I suppose this knowledge has been discovered by Tamyrlin, the very first chaneller.

[Jblaylock]

The real important question is: In which age during which turning of the wheel was Taco Bell first founded?

[FarShainMael]

No Birgit's memories fades with time. When pulled out of T'A'R, she remember some weird names and places. She remembered the funding of Tar Valon and all. But all those memories faded and are now gone, IIRC.

 

C'est vrai, but recall that Birgitte was untimely ripped from T'A'R, rather than having a normal rebirth. She says somewhere that in her normal lives she doesn't retain memories of previous lives.

 

So as chanelling is linked with the Wheel (saidin and saidar driving it together). Does it means that an Age without chanelling mean no knowlegde of the Wheel? If tou know of the Wheel, you ought to know that there are two antagonist power drivi.g it, in which you can possibly tap.

 

So I suppose this knowledge has been discovered by Tamyrlin, the very first chaneller.

 

You mean it's rediscovered every Turning? could be.

[jwillis7]

The question I would like answered is this: if all, repeat all, memories of any given Age fade by the next turning, how do they know that there is such a thing as the Wheel?

Well for one thing each age mirrors the others in certain ways. For another there are often records from previous ages that may mention yet-earlier ages. Also, as mentioned, there are Heroes of the Horn who are spun out again and again and have a recollection of their past incarnations.

One could even conject that since a given age 'n' can't possibly be exactly the same as its repetition age 'n+7' then time must be linear after all and the Wheel is just an abstraction.

As well ask whether the Pattern exists if you ask me. It may just be an abstraction that helps people understand their lives in the fabric (there it goes again) of society but for all intents and purposes, in the scale of any given person's life, it may as well be taken as true.

didn't Moiraine say that the "n+7" ages were not exactly alike but if you were standing in a hall with the patterns hanging on a wall they would look the same but if you got close you could see the slight differences. Its not that things happen the same but that the pattern is the same if everything was the exact same you would not need Taveren to get things back on track

[maglinvinn]

i am of the mind that the wheel is in fact not round, despite wheels being notoriously round.

 

that, and like a wheel, say on a car, who says the wheel must stay the same size. as you 'drive' a wheel is worn, becoming less in diameter. and what of hte hub, it could 'wobble'. Anything could be done poetically to explain that this whee doesn't turn on a single axis. Thus, you could in theory come around to the same age time and time again withotu ever encountering an age somewhere along an alternative orbit pattern on the wheel.

 

Even then, who's to say that the wheel can't grow in size, like a snowball rolling down a hill.

 

Lastly, if the wheel is shrinking, the time between revolutions is less assuming the force on it is externally constant, memory has less time to fade.

[jwillis7]

i am of the mind that the wheel is in fact not round, despite wheels being notoriously round.

 

that, and like a wheel, say on a car, who says the wheel must stay the same size. as you 'drive' a wheel is worn, becoming less in diameter. and what of hte hub, it could 'wobble'. Anything could be done poetically to explain that this whee doesn't turn on a single axis. Thus, you could in theory come around to the same age time and time again withotu ever encountering an age somewhere along an alternative orbit pattern on the wheel.

 

Even then, who's to say that the wheel can't grow in size, like a snowball rolling down a hill.

 

Lastly, if the wheel is shrinking, the time between revolutions is less assuming the force on it is externally constant, memory has less time to fade.

but why, what makes you think this or is it just a crazy theory (and i use crazy with all respect haha). I just really don't understand what you are trying to say

[Jblaylock]

Here's an idea that I think is neat.

 

What if there is some way, with the One Power, to shift one's perception of time closer to the center or vortex of the wheel. The center of a wheel moves slower than the outer edge, so if time is a wheel, time in the center would move slower than time in the outer edges. Of course, time is not within a sense of physical space, but perhaps you could shift your focus or perception of time closer to the center (so to speak), and then see things in slow motion. It would be most benificial in battle.

[didymos]

Here's an idea that I think is neat.

 

What if there is some way, with the One Power, to shift one's perception of time closer to the center or vortex of the wheel. The center of a wheel moves slower than the outer edge, so if time is a wheel, time in the center would move slower than time in the outer edges. Of course, time is not within a sense of physical space, but perhaps you could shift your focus or perception of time closer to the center (so to speak), and then see things in slow motion. It would be most benificial in battle.

 

I think you're taking the Wheel metaphor a bit too literally.

[jwillis7]

Here's an idea that I think is neat.

 

What if there is some way, with the One Power, to shift one's perception of time closer to the center or vortex of the wheel. The center of a wheel moves slower than the outer edge, so if time is a wheel, time in the center would move slower than time in the outer edges. Of course, time is not within a sense of physical space, but perhaps you could shift your focus or perception of time closer to the center (so to speak), and then see things in slow motion. It would be most benificial in battle.

 

I think you're taking the Wheel metaphor a bit too literally.

yea the wheel is just what churns the threads to make pattern. its all about the pattern to me or the age lace

[yoniy0]

Lastly, if the wheel is shrinking, the time between revolutions is less assuming the force on it is externally constant, memory has less time to fade.

Hey there, Belgarath. I didn't see you here before.

[dovien]

didn't Moiraine say that the "n+7" ages were not exactly alike but if you were standing in a hall with the patterns hanging on a wall they would look the same but if you got close you could see the slight differences. Its not that things happen the same but that the pattern is the same if everything was the exact same you would not need Taveren to get things back on track

I don't remember a quote like that but the description you give is consistent with what I remember from the books.

[jwillis7]

the title of this thread needs to be changed to Wheel Theory 101 haha

[maglinvinn]

Lastly, if the wheel is shrinking, the time between revolutions is less assuming the force on it is externally constant, memory has less time to fade.

Hey there, Belgarath. I didn't see you here before.

 

 

*wink*

 

belgarath is easily my most favorite character accross all books. mostly cause i'm an alcoholic too. :)

 

meanwhile, it is a serious theory. Jordan uses real world inspirations to shape his characters and scenarios. It stands to reason there's a good chance that the wheel it self is extremely literal.

 

by abandonment of a concept just cause its wacky you limit yourself and your perception. Considering the mundane is to consider the extreme, outer most limits of perception. Even my observations in my first post on this thread are amatuer and hardly as well thought out as i would have liked. They are there to challenge generally accepted notions and assumptions for the sake of fresh and altered revision of a concept.

 

The wheel turns and turns, the wheel grinds to a stop, we're gravel stuck in the treads destined to come around and be smashed into the asphalt every revolution. None of these relatively poetic observations are far from the truth of the wheel as Jordan's literature presents it.

[maglinvinn]

Here's an idea that I think is neat.

 

What if there is some way, with the One Power, to shift one's perception of time closer to the center or vortex of the wheel. The center of a wheel moves slower than the outer edge, so if time is a wheel, time in the center would move slower than time in the outer edges. Of course, time is not within a sense of physical space, but perhaps you could shift your focus or perception of time closer to the center (so to speak), and then see things in slow motion. It would be most benificial in battle.

 

absolutely. your position relative to the hub of the wheel could change your perception... perhaps min's viewing relies on this out of hte box thinking in regards to this theory.

[Demiandre]

Here's an idea that I think is neat.

 

What if there is some way, with the One Power, to shift one's perception of time closer to the center or vortex of the wheel. The center of a wheel moves slower than the outer edge, so if time is a wheel, time in the center would move slower than time in the outer edges. Of course, time is not within a sense of physical space, but perhaps you could shift your focus or perception of time closer to the center (so to speak), and then see things in slow motion. It would be most benificial in battle.

Except that the closer you are to the center, the faster the time goes. Or, the time between two ages is shorter. At the far end of the wheel, along the spokes, it takes more time to change from one age to another. The farther the center is, the slower time goes. The further you are from the center, longer the time is.