The Luckers Official Review.

[randsc]

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

 

 

Because Elayne fangurls are second only to Egwene fangurls in their hysterical enthusiasm?

[Mulk]

you know, I'm a fan of neither of the wonder twin E-girls. I don't think they are Dark One in waiting material that I've seen posted here, but neither one has really endeared herself to me. I think, though, that the debating of their relative merits or lack thereof has reached a level of carcinogenic concentration that I'm not willing to read anymore on the subject. It's beginning to devolve into personal or personal seeming attacks. I'd rather discuss pie, frankly. ;) Like chocolate. Or turtle cheesecake.

[dwn]

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

 

Because Elayne fangurls are second only to Egwene fangurls in their hysterical enthusiasm?

 

Any reasonable person (yes, Mr Ares is very reasonable) acknowledges that Elayne and Egwene have their unattractive qualities, just like every other character in the series. Elayne's over-reliance on Min's vision is dippy; Egwene is stubborn and a bit preachy. What strikes me as odd is that these character traits are turned into an irrational hatred (hatred!) of the two girls, even leading to personal attacks on anyone who defends them. Elayne is claimed to be irredeemably reckless and incompetent; Egwene, a terrible person and hypocrite. Every action these girls take is twisted to justify that hatred.

 

The underlying dispute here (and on other threads) is not about the particulars of Elayne's actions, but rather about having a proper debate on a topic. It is not enough to simply make an assertion. It is not sufficient to state an opinion. You must support your statements with logic, cite passages where possible, and be prepared to refine and defend your reasoning.

 

To make a convincing argument against Elayne In the debate at hand, you must point to a danger Elayne put herself in, show how that danger was a significant and probable--not merely possible--threat, and show how Elayne should have forseen it and how her preparations failed to address it.

 

-- dwn

[Eht Slat Meit]

Right, let's go over this again. Elayne is in her dungeons, with armed guards as back up, with the Source, against a shielded woman with no backup and no weapons. Elayne can't die, and any harm she comes to can be Healed by the channelers are right outside. Elayne is to be in there for a brief time, she is not on permanent guard duty. There is very little chance of anyone else entering during the very brief period she is in there - no one has got around that. An arrow through the eye? From a woman with neither bows nor arrows? Seriously, that's the risk you come up with?She didn't discard her guards. So this is very unlike the situation in TDR - there, the BA were the guards. So the equivalent here would be the Kinswomen holding the shields being at risk if something happened, which is rather more reasonable, but not something anyone has bothered to argue. So I ask again, what risks existed for Elayne in that situation? That were both serious and likely enough for her to need more backup than the armed guards and Kinswomen she had? How was she reckless? I haven't seen a good explanation for any of this.

 

What you're telling me is that the scenario Jordan wrote of all these people infiltrating her guards, taking out her backup, and nearly assaulting/injuring her badly was completely ludicrous - there should not have been any risk, nothing should ever have happened. Addressing your points specifically:

 

Elayne is in her dungeons,

 

How many escape scenarios have happened with Elayne and her own companions now? Tear, the Macura woman, etc...? That's dramatic underestimation to pretend "her dungeons" means anything.

 

with armed guards as back up

 

Page 371, paragraph 7. Where were those guards? Oh, right.

 

with the Source, against a shielded woman with no backup and no weapons.

 

See earlier comment about adventures Elayne herself has been in.

 

Elayne can't die

 

Ultimately inconsequential, and more importantly, even Elayne seems to be FINALLY coming to this realization`on page 374. She's running around terrified and trying to reason to herself that she'll be fine because she can't die. What would have happened if they'd captured her? Oh right, she wouldn't necessarily have died, just been raped and beaten into a shell of a human being.

 

any harm she comes to can be Healed by the channelers are right outside

 

Where were the channelers? Oh, right, they weren't. More importantly, since when have channelers been able to Heal the severing of limbs or mental vegetables? Not as of Towers of Midnight, and the taint is a special exception.

 

here is very little chance of anyone else entering during the very brief period she is in there - no one has got around that.

 

Ta'veren not only in the city, but nearby. Chance means squat. Elayne knew it, and did it anyway. Had she taken a second to rethink, she might realize that's a bad idea.

 

From a woman with neither bows nor arrows?

 

Doilan Mellar? Temaile? Anyone else they might have brought with them? Gee, just how DID so many people show up looking for Elayne's head in this "riskless" scenario?

 

She didn't discard her guards

 

She intentionally ditched Birgitte and isolated the guards that were left behind, allowing them to be taken and herself to be ambushed while interrogating Chesmal. Honestly, that she ditched Birgitte and rationalized telling the other guardswoman otherwise knowing perfectly well that what she was doing carried risk. She's reckless, not stupid.

 

So this is very unlike the situation in TDR

 

I consider 2 unarmed, shielded girls under a watchful guard to be -exactly- like TDR, situation wise. Specifics-wise? Of course not, Jordan's a better writer than that. He wrote Elayne to be like Mat. That's not a bad thing, I like both of them, and she's the more interesting character for it, even if I think it doesn't make her a very good queen.

 

As for what risks? I think your question was answered perfectly by the events from pages 373-376 and the responses to your individual points.

[dwn]

What you're telling me is that the scenario Jordan wrote of all these people infiltrating her guards, taking out her backup, and nearly assaulting/injuring her badly was completely ludicrous - there should not have been any risk, nothing should ever have happened. Addressing your points specifically:

 

[snip]

 

As for what risks? I think your question was answered perfectly by the events from pages 373-376 and the responses to your individual points.

 

As has been stated many, many times, there is nothing to show that Elayne should have foreseen a jailbreak at the exact time she was interrogating the prisoners. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite it.

 

-- dwn

[Eht Slat Meit]

As has been stated many, many times, there is nothing to show that Elayne should have foreseen a jailbreak at the exact time she was interrogating the prisoners. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite it.

 

-- dwn

 

Why are you presenting at that as the only possible risk? Others include the execution of Chesmal, or far, far more likely... an assassination or kidnapping attempt on Elayne herself. She SHOULD have foreseen the possibility of that last bit, and if I need evidence in the face of blatant common sense (such as her being a ruler on the back end of a whole bunch of political gamesmanship), I'll point out the previous attempt on her life. Even if -all- of these were minor chances (and assassination attempts aren't) chance goes totally out of whack with the presence of a ta'veren. When a ta'veren is about, things that are less than likely to happen suddenly become far more likely. Elayne knows and understands this perfectly well, having used Mat to seek the Bowl.

[Loophole]

As has been stated many, many times, there is nothing to show that Elayne should have foreseen a jailbreak at the exact time she was interrogating the prisoners. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite it.

 

-- dwn

 

Why are you presenting at that as the only possible risk? Others include the execution of Chesmal, or far, far more likely... an assassination or kidnapping attempt on Elayne herself. She SHOULD have foreseen the possibility of that last bit, and if I need evidence in the face of blatant common sense (such as her being a ruler on the back end of a whole bunch of political gamesmanship), I'll point out the previous attempt on her life. Even if -all- of these were minor chances (and assassination attempts aren't) chance goes totally out of whack with the presence of a ta'veren. When a ta'veren is about, things that are less than likely to happen suddenly become far more likely. Elayne knows and understands this perfectly well, having used Mat to seek the Bowl.

 

There may be risk, but there is always risk and i believe in this case it was minimal. Like others have said it is unlikely that anything would happen for the minute she was there.

 

And for this minimal risk, the rewards could of been far greater. She very nearly had the details on the attack against her city. I am not usually an Elayne fan, but this move by her i agree with, a little bit of personal risk for potentially vital information.

[dwn]

As has been stated many, many times, there is nothing to show that Elayne should have foreseen a jailbreak at the exact time she was interrogating the prisoners. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite it.

 

-- dwn

 

Why are you presenting at that as the only possible risk? Others include the execution of Chesmal, or far, far more likely... an assassination or kidnapping attempt on Elayne herself. She SHOULD have foreseen the possibility of that last bit, and if I need evidence in the face of blatant common sense (such as her being a ruler on the back end of a whole bunch of political gamesmanship), I'll point out the previous attempt on her life. Even if -all- of these were minor chances (and assassination attempts aren't) chance goes totally out of whack with the presence of a ta'veren. When a ta'veren is about, things that are less than likely to happen suddenly become far more likely. Elayne knows and understands this perfectly well, having used Mat to seek the Bowl.

 

An execution of the prisoners amounts to the same thing as a jailbreak, so far as neither being likely during the the short period of time Elayne intended to be down there.

 

An assassination or kidnapping would take place where Elayne was supposed to be--in her quarters surrounded by bodyguards. That has nothing to do with the opportunistic attack on her during the jailbreak.

 

The effect of a ta'veren does twist fate and probability, yet it is unreasonable to think anyone should predict the effect, if any, it might have on a given situation. That's like claiming Elayne shouldn't bathe for fear she might drown.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

Can't you guys just say you don't like Elayne and leave it at that? Yes, it was not a perfect plan and there was a bit of a risk, and if this was another book or series, this discussion might've been more justified. But it's part for the course in this series that pretty much everyone often risks without much planning and somehow survives.

 

BTW, if being near ta'veren means you have to be way more careful in everything since risks are much more likely, Rand must'be the biggest idiot in the series, since he's the strongest ta'veren yet risks a lot quite often. ;)

[AutomatedTeller]

I like Elayne, but I still think it was a dumb move.

[Terez]

you know, I'm a fan of neither of the wonder twin E-girls. I don't think they are Dark One in waiting material that I've seen posted here, but neither one has really endeared herself to me. I think, though, that the debating of their relative merits or lack thereof has reached a level of carcinogenic concentration that I'm not willing to read anymore on the subject. It's beginning to devolve into personal or personal seeming attacks. I'd rather discuss pie, frankly. ;) Like chocolate. Or turtle cheesecake.

This.

[General Cauthon]

As has been stated many, many times, there is nothing to show that Elayne should have foreseen a jailbreak at the exact time she was interrogating the prisoners. If you have evidence to the contrary, please cite it.

 

-- dwn

 

Why are you presenting at that as the only possible risk? Others include the execution of Chesmal, or far, far more likely... an assassination or kidnapping attempt on Elayne herself. She SHOULD have foreseen the possibility of that last bit, and if I need evidence in the face of blatant common sense (such as her being a ruler on the back end of a whole bunch of political gamesmanship), I'll point out the previous attempt on her life. Even if -all- of these were minor chances (and assassination attempts aren't) chance goes totally out of whack with the presence of a ta'veren. When a ta'veren is about, things that are less than likely to happen suddenly become far more likely. Elayne knows and understands this perfectly well, having used Mat to seek the Bowl.

 

No one would have planned to kidnap Elayne in the dungeons, noone knew she would be there. As a matter of fact, the risk of being kidnapped in the dungeon while being disguised, are less then being kidnapped in the throne room surrounded by guards. The Forsaken, BA or Asha'man could just open a gateway 2 feet away from the throne, grab Elayne, drag her through, and release the gateway. It would be over in seconds, leaving any guards unable to react quickly enough.

 

I'm actually disappointed that none of the Forsaken has tried this already. Except Semirhage of course, who killed the entire Imperal family by herself without breathing hard. And the Imperal family were probably better protected then any of "our" heroes. The only one Semirhage didn't manage to kill, was the one who walked in disguise amongst enemies!!!! Which IMO means that Elayne were safer during her trip to the dungeons, then at any other time in the book.

[Mr Ares]

Except for the occasional grammatical error, I don't think that Mr. Ares is wrong.

I contend that it is English grammar that is in error, not me.

 

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

Keeping people on topic is like herding cats. Someone else posted their review, and was asked to justify something they said about Elayne. This is the result.

 

 

So I ask again, what risks existed for Elayne in that situation?

The other darkfriends and BA breaking out and blindsiding her :)

 

 

That stick up your backside must be massive.

A bit larger than average. But you still fail to address the issue of how likely it was to happen during the brief period she was down there.

 

 

Why is it that a thread on my review--which did not touch on Elayne at all--is about Elayne?

 

Not that I mind or anything. I'm just curious about the evolution.

 

Because Elayne fangurls are second only to Egwene fangurls in their hysterical enthusiasm?

 

Any reasonable person (yes, Mr Ares is very reasonable)

SHHH! You're not supposed to tell people, it's meant to be a secret.

 

To make a convincing argument against Elayne In the debate at hand, you must point to a danger Elayne put herself in, show how that danger was a significant and probable--not merely possible--threat, and show how Elayne should have forseen it and how her preparations failed to address it.

 

-- dwn

This.

 

Right, let's go over this again. Elayne is in her dungeons, with armed guards as back up, with the Source, against a shielded woman with no backup and no weapons. Elayne can't die, and any harm she comes to can be Healed by the channelers are right outside. Elayne is to be in there for a brief time, she is not on permanent guard duty. There is very little chance of anyone else entering during the very brief period she is in there - no one has got around that. An arrow through the eye? From a woman with neither bows nor arrows? Seriously, that's the risk you come up with?She didn't discard her guards. So this is very unlike the situation in TDR - there, the BA were the guards. So the equivalent here would be the Kinswomen holding the shields being at risk if something happened, which is rather more reasonable, but not something anyone has bothered to argue. So I ask again, what risks existed for Elayne in that situation? That were both serious and likely enough for her to need more backup than the armed guards and Kinswomen she had? How was she reckless? I haven't seen a good explanation for any of this.

 

What you're telling me is that the scenario Jordan wrote of all these people infiltrating her guards, taking out her backup, and nearly assaulting/injuring her badly was completely ludicrous - there should not have been any risk, nothing should ever have happened.

Not quite. You see, unlikely things can happen. But I do not consider people all that foolish for failing to guard against them. If it looks like rain, it's reasonable to take an umbrella. If it doesn't, if there isn't a cloud in the sky, then taking an umbrella seems like overkill. An important part of what I said in my post (part you quoted, and part I have said many times before) is that a risk must be likely. To take steps to prevent a break out is perfectly reasonable, but Elayne was not going to be in the dungeon long, and therefore the chance of it happening while she was in there is very small. That is the crux of my argument, and that is the main point that people fail to address.

 

Addressing your points specifically:

I did have a response to all of these, but I got a message saying I had too many quoted blocks of text, so I hope you don't mind that I've snipped them out. As most of them have already been covered, I kept the ta'veren response and just cut the rest, but if there is anything specific you'd like me to respond to I'll be happy to.

 

here is very little chance of anyone else entering during the very brief period she is in there - no one has got around that.

 

Ta'veren not only in the city, but nearby. Chance means squat. Elayne knew it, and did it anyway. Had she taken a second to rethink, she might realize that's a bad idea.

Chance still means a lot. Ta'veren has both positive and negative effects, so while it is unlikely to be an issue at all, it might work both for or against her. Furthermore, one cannot prepare for ta'veren. What was she to do? If she stayed in bed all the time, she could still suffer a ridiculously unlikely accident as a result of ta'veren. Or, she could have her interrogation assisted by it, as a prisoner who might otherwise have seen through a disguise instead is fooled. It's a better try than most, but ta'veren still fails to really answer the point of where she put herself in any serious, likely danger.

 

He wrote Elayne to be like Mat. That's not a bad thing, I like both of them, and she's the more interesting character for it, even if I think it doesn't make her a very good queen.

 

As for what risks? I think your question was answered perfectly by the events from pages 373-376 and the responses to your individual points.

And I still disagree. As for what actually happened, I don't think that really answers the point of how much risk there actually was. If someone does something that is very unlikely to work and it does, that doesn't change the fact that it was unlikely to work. If someone goes into a situation in which there is very little chance of things going seriously wrong, and they do go seriously wrong, then that doesn't change the fact it was unlikely to happen. If people want to say that Elayne's actions were stupid, or risky, they should be prepared to show it. So far, they haven't. They have tried, but all their points have been flawed, because they have failed to address the central, important part of the argument: what happened was not something that was llikely to happen. Jailbreak, yes. Jailbreak during the very brief span Elayne was in there, no. By all means hate Elayne. She is not my favourite character either, though I don't dislike her to the extent some do. I won't try to defend her every action, but I will defend this one, because I do not see how failing to guard against the ridiculously unlikely makes one reckless. It's a point I've brought up before, about meteors. While it is quite possible that I could be hit by one, I do not see it as such a strong possbility that I need wear a hard hat whenever I step outside. Wearing one on a building site, reasonable. Wearing a crash helmet on a motorbike, reasonable. Wearing a seatbelt in a car, reasonable. Wearing a hard hat to guard against meteors? Paranoid. No-one has yet given me a good reason why Elayne failed to take adequate precautions against anything that was likely to happen during the brief period she was in that dungeon. If you would like to, by all means, go ahead. But all I have seen so far is a belief that she should have done more to protect against the seriously unlikely, merely because it happened. I can't fault her for that. Other character did far sillier things in this books, to my mind. Rand with Egwene and Mat with Verin's letter are, to my mind, things which had far more likely negative consequences than Elayne's actions.

[Eht Slat Meit]

To make a convincing argument against Elayne In the debate at hand, you must point to a danger Elayne put herself in, show how that danger was a significant and probable--not merely possible--threat, and show how Elayne should have forseen it and how her preparations failed to address it.

 

That's really pretty simple, and has been done repeatedly.

1. The danger she put herself in was shown in the aforementioned pages.

2. The danger was clear - her assailant had no interest in killing her, he intended to assault and brutalize her, something that could very easily circumvent her so-called "immunity" (which has already been pointed out to be ridiculous by her own bodyguard). Attempts at any time are a possibility, and the likelihood increases with opportunity. When that opportunity is foolishly given, it will be taken. Do you think it was pure chance they showed up?

3. That's the point. She made no preparations whatsoever. She isolated herself, removing her guards from the equation, went in half-armed with an unrealiable weapon and nearly defenseless. Elayne knows better and with the intelligence a queen is -supposed- to have an display, it was exceptionally foolhardy to behave that way.

 

Not quite. You see, unlikely things can happen. But I do not consider people all that foolish for failing to guard against them.

 

You think a queen isn't supposed to be bright enough to guard herself against the probability of an attack? What exactly is the point of the guards? Not just a SHOW of force, but the ability to actually defend her. She's just a human, one with some power, not an omnipotent god, and even if she turns out to be Ilyena Reborn the Three-Become-One, that's not gonna change.

 

Addressing your points specifically: did have a response to all of these, but I got a message saying I had too many quoted blocks of text, so I hope you don't mind that I've snipped them out. As most of them have already been covered, I kept the ta'veren response and just cut the rest, but if there is anything specific you'd like me to respond to I'll be happy to.

 

I don't mind that you've snipped them as long as you don't expect me to consider your insistence that they've been addressed an adequate rebuttal.

 

Ta'veren not only in the city, but nearby. Chance means squat. Elayne knew it, and did it anyway. Had she taken a second to rethink, she might realize that's a bad idea.

Chance still means a lot. Ta'veren has both positive and negative effects, so while it is unlikely to be an issue at all, it might work both for or against her. Furthermore, one cannot prepare for ta'veren. What was she to do? If she stayed in bed all the time, she could still suffer a ridiculously unlikely accident as a result of ta'veren. Or, she could have her interrogation assisted by it, as a prisoner who might otherwise have seen through a disguise instead is fooled. It's a better try than most, but ta'veren still fails to really answer the point of where she put herself in any serious, likely danger.

 

To address the very point you've made here - ta'veren radically alters chance and... bam, it's completely unreliable. Why would you disarm and leave yourself nearly defenseless and then rely on luck to get you through it?

 

He wrote Elayne to be like Mat. That's not a bad thing, I like both of them, and she's the more interesting character for it, even if I think it doesn't make her a very good queen.

 

By all means hate Elayne.

 

I think this here is the crux of all your problems. You are irrationally assuming that I hate Elayne, despite my saying otherwise, simply because I believe she made foolhardy and risky decisions. Again, I like Elayne, and I like her better for her shortcomings. A prim and proper queen is boring. But that doesn't mean I'm going to rationalize what I see as stupid behavior. Nor should you assume I hate her for it.

 

Every last one of the main characters has at least one serious personal flaw, and it's what makes them interesting as characters. It's what makes me like every. last. one. of. them. Jordan didn't make his characters into a bunch of cookie-cutter picture-perfect superheroes... he tried to write them like real people and succeeded.

 

If you want to disagree with my conclusions based on what I see written, then do so, but don't try and undermine my arguments by convincing yourself that I hate a character such as Elayne just because I think they did something wrong. Rand acted like a thuggish tool before he got his act together. I still think he's great.

[Mr Ares]

To make a convincing argument against Elayne In the debate at hand, you must point to a danger Elayne put herself in, show how that danger was a significant and probable--not merely possible--threat, and show how Elayne should have forseen it and how her preparations failed to address it.

 

That's really pretty simple, and has been done repeatedly.

1. The danger she put herself in was shown in the aforementioned pages.

No. Elayne has not been shown, at any point, to have been put in any likely danger.

2. The danger was clear - her assailant had no interest in killing her, he intended to assault and brutalize her, something that could very easily circumvent her so-called "immunity" (which has already been pointed out to be ridiculous by her own bodyguard). Attempts at any time are a possibility, and the likelihood increases with opportunity. When that opportunity is foolishly given, it will be taken. Do you think it was pure chance they showed up?

I see no reason to conclude otherwise. Certainly, timing a jailbreak for the same brief period Elayne just happened to be in the dungeons, on the off chance she did decide to do that on the spur of the moment is completely implausible. Now, what "opportunity" was there? Elayne was alone in the room, but she had guards stationed outside the door. Armed guards and channelers. That is what any assassination attempt had to get through in order to interupt. Now, they did so, granted, but Elayne still had guards there to protect her. So, what opportunity did she give? None. She was not alone and vulnerable. She was protected.

3. That's the point. She made no preparations whatsoever. She isolated herself, removing her guards from the equation, went in half-armed with an unrealiable weapon and nearly defenseless. Elayne knows better and with the intelligence a queen is -supposed- to have an display, it was exceptionally foolhardy to behave that way.

She had guards outside the door. For anyone else to interrupt, they would have to get through the guards. If Birgitte had been involved, then we have no reason to believe they couldn't get through her as well. If you are already talking about carving your way through armed guards and channelers in order to harm a queen who is already holding the Source, one or two bodyguards more probably won't make much difference. You are setting the bar far too high. You still fail, completely and utterly to provide any decent explanation for how she was putting herself in danger.

 

Not quite. You see, unlikely things can happen. But I do not consider people all that foolish for failing to guard against them.

 

You think a queen isn't supposed to be bright enough to guard herself against the probability of an attack?

She did. Address that.

 

Addressing your points specifically: did have a response to all of these, but I got a message saying I had too many quoted blocks of text, so I hope you don't mind that I've snipped them out. As most of them have already been covered, I kept the ta'veren response and just cut the rest, but if there is anything specific you'd like me to respond to I'll be happy to.

I don't mind that you've snipped them as long as you don't expect me to consider your insistence that they've been addressed an adequate rebuttal.

By the same token, I don't consider you to have rebutted anything I've said.

 

Ta'veren not only in the city, but nearby. Chance means squat. Elayne knew it, and did it anyway. Had she taken a second to rethink, she might realize that's a bad idea.

Chance still means a lot. Ta'veren has both positive and negative effects, so while it is unlikely to be an issue at all, it might work both for or against her. Furthermore, one cannot prepare for ta'veren. What was she to do? If she stayed in bed all the time, she could still suffer a ridiculously unlikely accident as a result of ta'veren. Or, she could have her interrogation assisted by it, as a prisoner who might otherwise have seen through a disguise instead is fooled. It's a better try than most, but ta'veren still fails to really answer the point of where she put herself in any serious, likely danger.

 

To address the very point you've made here - ta'veren radically alters chance and... bam, it's completely unreliable. Why would you disarm and leave yourself nearly defenseless and then rely on luck to get you through it?

...Except none of those things happened.

 

By all means hate Elayne.

 

I think this here is the crux of all your problems. You are irrationally assuming that I hate Elayne, despite my saying otherwise,

No. Hatred of Elayne is beside the point. I am saying that given the situation presented, there is precious little more she could reasonably have done, and there was no likely risk to her person. And despite people claiming what she did was stupid, risky, or what have you, everyone who has been asked to back this point up has failed. Utterly failed. What does that tell you? It tells me that not one of you actually has a decent argument.

 

Let us look at the situation presented:

Elayne was alone in the cell, but was not without backup. She had armed guards and Kinswomen outside to provide her with assistance if any were required. These people were alerted to her presence. The prisoner she was interrogating was shielded, and unarmed. Elayne held the Source. Therefore, in order for Chesmal to cause her any harm, she would have to see through Elayne's disguise, decide to mount an attack on an opponent who can channel when she herself can't, in the hope that Elayne was unable to react, and before any signal was given to the guards outside. For anyone outside the cell to harm her, they would have to get through the armed guards and Kin. That is in no way unprotected, or alone.

 

So, what serious, likely risk did she face? So far, no-one has presented anything that qualifies. If you can't show that she was taking a risk, then surely you have lost the argument? If you're not even going to bother trying to answer my points, then there is precious little point in continuing. If you would actually like to provide evidence to show she was without backup, ditched her guards, or anything else you allege, do so. If you want to claim there was a risk of several people killing all her guards and Kin outside before breaking in and trying to kill her during the very brief period she was in there, and that this was something that could quite plausibly have happened, and there was much more she could have done to prevent it, go ahead. Otherwise, don't bother.

[johthohar]

A bunch of stuff about Elayne being in no danger at all.

 

Didn't read the entire argument. My boss gets mad at me if I spend the entire work day on forum boards. So, sorry if I repeat any points that have previously been made.

 

The risk was minimal. But with her pregnancy her control of Saidar is tenuous at best and completely absent at worst. So, there was the chance that she would loser control of the OP and her MoM would fail. Then it would be a contest of physical strength and Elayne is quite petite. Also, she was playing with ter'angreal one of which she doesn't fully understand and another that is faulty.

 

And you mentioned that we have no reason to believe they couldn't have gotten through Birgette as well? How about the fact that she is a Hero of the Horn with multiple lifetimes of experience in battle who has been bonded as a warder further enhancing her combat prowess?

 

Just a couple things that came to mind.

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

If you can't show that she was taking a risk, then surely you have lost the argument? If you're not even going to bother trying to answer my points, then there is precious little point in continuing. If you would actually like to provide evidence to show she was without backup, ditched her guards, or anything else you allege, do so. If you want to claim there was a risk of several people killing all her guards and Kin outside before breaking in and trying to kill her during the very brief period she was in there, and that this was something that could quite plausibly have happened, and there was much more she could have done to prevent it, go ahead. Otherwise, don't bother.

 

I've answered your points. That you consider those answers inadequate to making my case is irrelevant. I consider your responses failing to show that she shouldn't have known any better, and that what DID happen proves the risk existed. It wasn't some small chance: She knew there were Black Ajah around, knew that Doillan Mellar was still lurking somewhere and that there's any number of other threats. Instead of actually treating them like a threat, she acted like the prison was her private residence, no guards needed. Oh yes, putting them outside the room where you have no idea what's happening is a great safeguard... no Black Ajah could POSSIBLY remove them from the board without hearing about it.

 

If you want to disagree with me, that's your perogative. But don't bother wasting YOUR time trying to convince me that not only am I wrong, but that my argument is completely without merit and stupid,with the apparent conclusion that I should just shut up. I don't get into random arguments just to see myself write - I honestly and truly believe that what she did was foolhardy and risky, and that the text proves it. You haven't convinced ME otherwise, and given how hostile you're getting, I see this is going to go nowhere and that I should consider what I've written here the end of my say.

 

If you have LWS, feel free to take any remaining digs at me that you feel the need to, like how I have no decent argument, how I'm a complete and utter failure and making a point, and so on.

[Cillian]

The risk was minimal. But with her pregnancy her control of Saidar is tenuous at best and completely absent at worst. So, there was the chance that she would loser control of the OP and her MoM would fail. Then it would be a contest of physical strength and Elayne is quite petite.

 

Elayne is actually quite tall.

[johthohar]

If you have LWS[...]

 

Lethal white syndrome?

[johthohar]

The risk was minimal. But with her pregnancy her control of Saidar is tenuous at best and completely absent at worst. So, there was the chance that she would loser control of the OP and her MoM would fail. Then it would be a contest of physical strength and Elayne is quite petite.

 

Elayne is actually quite tall.

 

My mistake. Elayne is described in several places as being slightly taller than average. I must be thinking of someone else who was repeatedly said to be very small.

[dwn]

I've answered your points. That you consider those answers inadequate to making my case is irrelevant. I consider your responses failing to show that she shouldn't have known any better, and that what DID happen proves the risk existed. It wasn't some small chance: She knew there were Black Ajah around, knew that Doillan Mellar was still lurking somewhere and that there's any number of other threats. Instead of actually treating them like a threat, she acted like the prison was her private residence, no guards needed. Oh yes, putting them outside the room where you have no idea what's happening is a great safeguard... no Black Ajah could POSSIBLY remove them from the board without hearing about it.

 

The Black Ajah she knew about were all imprisoned and shielded. Doilan Mellar was in a cell. The 'prison' was in the basement of her own private residence. There were guards and Kin a few feet away in the cell block, and bodyguards on the other side of her gateway.

 

You can't point to an unfortunate coincidence--like a jailbreak at the moment of her interrogation attempt--and merely claim Elayne should have been prepared for it. You need to show that Elayne willfully ignored clues that a jailbreak (or assassination, or meteor strike) was imminent.

 

-- dwn

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

The Black Ajah she knew about were all imprisoned and shielded. Doilan Mellar was in a cell. The 'prison' was in the basement of her own private residence. There were guards and Kin a few feet away in the cell block, and bodyguards on the other side of her gateway.

 

"she knew about" emphasis. She's not the Dragon Reborn, she doesn't have the ability to see darkfriends, doesn't know who they all are, and it would be more than a little arrogant for her to assume that she knows them all. The guards and Kin were NOT a few feet away, they were unseen on the other side of a door.

 

You can't point to an unfortunate coincidence--like a jailbreak at the moment of her interrogation attempt--and merely claim Elayne should have been prepared for it. You need to show that Elayne willfully ignored clues that a jailbreak (or assassination, or meteor strike) was imminent.

 

The whole point of a jailbreak or an assassination attempt is that there are NO clues, that your victim doesn't see them coming. A potential target doesn't have the ability to defend themselves by seeing "clues" to an assassination in progress, they do it by warding against the possibility of an attempt. Only in very poorly written fantasy (such as forgotten realms) do the victims always seen an attack coming before it hits. They defend by being with body-guards, or in a magical-world, with the appropriate defenses. Elayne removed her bodyguards from the room, leaving her only with unreliable and limited defenses.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

 

The Black Ajah she knew about were all imprisoned and shielded. Doilan Mellar was in a cell. The 'prison' was in the basement of her own private residence. There were guards and Kin a few feet away in the cell block, and bodyguards on the other side of her gateway.

 

"she knew about" emphasis. She's not the Dragon Reborn, she doesn't have the ability to see darkfriends, doesn't know who they all are, and it would be more than a little arrogant for her to assume that she knows them all. The guards and Kin were NOT a few feet away, they were unseen on the other side of a door.

 

A door which was a few feet away. Anyways, the only darkfriend in the vicinity and in the room was Chesmal, who was facing her and cowering from her.

 

You can't point to an unfortunate coincidence--like a jailbreak at the moment of her interrogation attempt--and merely claim Elayne should have been prepared for it. You need to show that Elayne willfully ignored clues that a jailbreak (or assassination, or meteor strike) was imminent.

 

The whole point of a jailbreak or an assassination attempt is that there are NO clues, that your victim doesn't see them coming. A potential target doesn't have the ability to defend themselves by seeing "clues" to an assassination in progress, they do it by warding against the possibility of an attempt. Only in very poorly written fantasy (such as forgotten realms) do the victims always seen an attack coming before it hits. They defend by being with body-guards, or in a magical-world, with the appropriate defenses. Elayne removed her bodyguards from the room, leaving her only with unreliable and limited defenses.

 

Wrong. Elayne did not remove her bodyguards from the room. They were standing on the other side of the gateway which led to her room, and were told to keep silent and the lights in her room doused. Anyway, the only possible attacks would have to come through the cell door, which would mean having to go through the kinswomen and the guards, and kinswomen and guards are not unreliable defenses, and certainly not very limited.

[Mr Ares]

A bunch of stuff about Elayne being in no danger at all.

 

Didn't read the entire argument. My boss gets mad at me if I spend the entire work day on forum boards. So, sorry if I repeat any points that have previously been made.

 

The risk was minimal. But with her pregnancy her control of Saidar is tenuous at best and completely absent at worst. So, there was the chance that she would loser control of the OP and her MoM would fail. Then it would be a contest of physical strength and Elayne is quite petite. Also, she was playing with ter'angreal one of which she doesn't fully understand and another that is faulty.

One thing people have mentioned is that Elayne has difficulty grasping the Source, but not any once she has grasped it - and in this case, she had firmly grasped the Source, so control of saidar was not an issue.

 

And you mentioned that we have no reason to believe they couldn't have gotten through Birgette as well? How about the fact that she is a Hero of the Horn with multiple lifetimes of experience in battle who has been bonded as a warder further enhancing her combat prowess?

 

Just a couple things that came to mind.

Well, Birgitte might be a little tougher, but if they can already get through a bunch of armed guards and the Kin, there's no reason to think that she would be an insurmountable challenge.

 

 

If you can't show that she was taking a risk, then surely you have lost the argument? If you're not even going to bother trying to answer my points, then there is precious little point in continuing. If you would actually like to provide evidence to show she was without backup, ditched her guards, or anything else you allege, do so. If you want to claim there was a risk of several people killing all her guards and Kin outside before breaking in and trying to kill her during the very brief period she was in there, and that this was something that could quite plausibly have happened, and there was much more she could have done to prevent it, go ahead. Otherwise, don't bother.

 

I've answered your points.

No, you haven't. You have not been able to show any serious, likely danger to her. That there existed the risk of it happenng is not in doubt, but you have no answer to the point that it was incredibly unlikely to happen during the very brief period she was in there. That is crucial to the argument. If it was very unlikely, as I contend, she is the victim of bad luck. If it was quite likely, then she is the victim of recklessness and poor planning. Yet this point is always glossed over. You cannot show that what happened was at all likely, you ignore the point. The BA were in her cells. Any attempt to break them out is very unlikely to happen during that brief period, and you have said nothing to change that fact. Given that it was so unlikely, failing to take precautions against it was not reckless.

Instead of actually treating them like a threat, she acted like the prison was her private residence, no guards needed. Oh yes, putting them outside the room where you have no idea what's happening is a great safeguard... no Black Ajah could POSSIBLY remove them from the board without hearing about it.

The guards could not be in the cell with her, or the plan wouldn't work. "Great Mistress, why do you have Elayne's bodyguards with you?" "Shut up, that's why." Now, how could people get into the cell? Through the Gateway, thus through Elayne's guards. Through the cell door, thus through Elayne's guards. Making a new Gateway, and if that was done with the intention of assassinating her they would have to know she was in there, and her guards could come in through the other entrances in short order. She was protected. If you do wish to debate this, I am willing, but you will need to address those points.

 

If you have LWS[...]

Lethal white syndrome?

At a guess, last word syndrome.

[General Cauthon]

 

The Black Ajah she knew about were all imprisoned and shielded. Doilan Mellar was in a cell. The 'prison' was in the basement of her own private residence. There were guards and Kin a few feet away in the cell block, and bodyguards on the other side of her gateway.

 

"she knew about" emphasis. She's not the Dragon Reborn, she doesn't have the ability to see darkfriends, doesn't know who they all are, and it would be more than a little arrogant for her to assume that she knows them all. The guards and Kin were NOT a few feet away, they were unseen on the other side of a door.

 

You can't point to an unfortunate coincidence--like a jailbreak at the moment of her interrogation attempt--and merely claim Elayne should have been prepared for it. You need to show that Elayne willfully ignored clues that a jailbreak (or assassination, or meteor strike) was imminent.

 

The whole point of a jailbreak or an assassination attempt is that there are NO clues, that your victim doesn't see them coming. A potential target doesn't have the ability to defend themselves by seeing "clues" to an assassination in progress, they do it by warding against the possibility of an attempt. Only in very poorly written fantasy (such as forgotten realms) do the victims always seen an attack coming before it hits. They defend by being with body-guards, or in a magical-world, with the appropriate defenses. Elayne removed her bodyguards from the room, leaving her only with unreliable and limited defenses.

 

As I said in a previous post, Elayne would be more protected against an assassination attempt in the dungeons, because none of her would-be-assassins knew she was going to be there.

AND there were more guards in the dungeon then in Elaynes own rooms.

I don't understand how anyone could argue that Elaynes actions were too risky, when her actions actually reduced the risk of an assassination attempt succeding.