Discuss The Forsaken

[analyticalkeys]

Sammael didn't get eaten by mashadar. Recall the meeting with the 11 thrones? He survived.

 

Also, Sammael was cited for leading the trollocs through the ways. He gets credit for attacking Rand at the farmhouse with 100k shadowspawn.

 

Sammael and Demanderad are the generals among the forsaken. They led the armies in the age of legends, and lead them now. Who else has been out of contact for a while, yet hundreds of thousands of trollocs have been guided through the ways - even lately to attack Caemlyn?

 

No, Sammael has been confirmed as dead for quite a while.

[Bookworm]

Sammael didn't get eaten by mashadar. Recall the meeting with the 11 thrones? He survived.

 

Also, Sammael was cited for leading the trollocs through the ways. He gets credit for attacking Rand at the farmhouse with 100k shadowspawn.

 

Sammael and Demanderad are the generals among the forsaken. They led the armies in the age of legends, and lead them now. Who else has been out of contact for a while, yet hundreds of thousands of trollocs have been guided through the ways - even lately to attack Caemlyn?

 

No, Sammael has been confirmed as dead for quite a while.

 

 

No, he has not. In fact, he was specifically cited by the others of the forsaken for leading the trollocs through the ways, as I have written. Read more carefully. Did you miss the scene I described in which the forsaken met?

[analyticalkeys]

Sammael didn't get eaten by mashadar. Recall the meeting with the 11 thrones? He survived.

 

Also, Sammael was cited for leading the trollocs through the ways. He gets credit for attacking Rand at the farmhouse with 100k shadowspawn.

 

Sammael and Demanderad are the generals among the forsaken. They led the armies in the age of legends, and lead them now. Who else has been out of contact for a while, yet hundreds of thousands of trollocs have been guided through the ways - even lately to attack Caemlyn?

 

No, Sammael has been confirmed as dead for quite a while.

 

 

No, he has not. In fact, he was specifically cited by the others of the forsaken for leading the trollocs through the ways, as I have written. Read more carefully. Did you miss the scene I described in which the forsaken met?

 

I am 100% sure that RJ said in an interview that Sammael was toast.

[MierinWru]

No, he has not.  In fact, he was specifically cited by the others of the forsaken for leading the trollocs through the ways, as I have written.  Read more carefully.  Did you miss the scene I described in which the forsaken met?

 

I'll just trust Robert Jordan himself:

 

From: http://edition.cnn.c...rdan/index.html

 

Quote:

"Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!"

So we've known that for 10 years now.

 

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that through the series so far, Asmodean has, by far, been the most effective of any of the Forsaken. He's responsible for the Shaido and they've done more damage than all the Forsaken put together. Plus he almost got himself the super sa'angreal (forget the name right now) and that was a damn good play which was about a half-second from working. I think that's why I'm so annoyed by his truncated ending that took a decade to resolve and then was done in a half-assed manner. The character deserved better.

 

Other than that, I'm somewhat underwhelmed. Moghidien was cool early on, but there doesn't seem to be much of a reason that she survived as she's apparently been written out of the series and doesn't seem to have anything left to do anyways. Semirhage killed off the Seanchan Empire, so she gets props for taking down a bigger threat than the Shadow's ever been and was cool in captivity, but I never got why she didn't have Tuon under some kind of compulsion or the like - especially now that we know that the 13x13 works and Tuon can channel. It seems weird to let the leader of such a large force wander around on her own. Rahvin and Sammael were good as minor villians to be taken down in a novel, so they did their job. Lanfear was good as the crazy-assed bitch but really needed to stay dead.

 

At this point, I'm in the camp of not really caring who Demandred is. Given that Portal Stones and Waygates can put tens of thousands of Trollocs anywhere in the world on a moment's notice, why would it matter if he's in charge of Murandy or somewhere pointless like that? As Rand said, the subtlety's done and it's a straight up brawl, so have him in a general's tent and ignore everything else.

 

Ishamael was cool as Ishamael, but as Moridin he seems to do nothing more than stand around yelling at other people for their failures while not succeeding at much himself. For the main Big Bad, he's been fairly tepid.

 

I think that the main problem was that there were thirteen of them and four came back, so you needed seventeen different things for them to do and that didn't really happen. Bringing back Aginor and Balthamel, for instance, was totally pointless. There was no reason that Dashiva couldn't have been one more DF Asha'man and Aran'gar's part could have been played by Sheriam or Delana without losing anything. The fact that they died off again in such random manners without anyone really noticing that they'd been alive again in the first place underscores the irrelevance of their resurrections.

[Bookworm]

MierinWru, thanks for the link. Yet, strangely, Sammael seems to be alive, or alive again thanks to the dark one. Knife of Dreams, page 147.

 

As a side note, you are mistaken about the bore being sealed. The dark one's prison must be made whole again, so a Mieran in the next age can create a bore. The wheel turns and all that.

[TheTuninator]

I thought the idea was this time they were going to try and change the Pattern? It would be kind of a hollow victory if we knew the whole thing was just going to happen all over again, and the Dark One still had the chance to possibly break free.

I'm also inclined to agree with the person who said that the Forsaken's reputations have simply been so hugely inflated by legend that we expect crazy things from them, perhaps unrealistically. We know Nynaeve is just as strong as at least one of the Forsaken, for example. They're powerful channelers, but not gods.

[MierinWru]

As a side note, you are mistaken about the bore being sealed.  The dark one's prison must be made whole again, so a Mieran in another age can create a bore.  The wheel turns and all that.

 

"sealing off the bore" was just my generic expression for "having to read endless explanations of how Rand (and possibly Nynaeve) defeat the Dark One by using this weave.. and that weave.. .and also this one... bending that one..." and so on.

 

 

Regarding your last comment, though: There's plenty of people here thinking "the wheel turns and all that" will end after Tarmon Gaidon. There's been hints at that throughout the story. Wheel breaking and stuff, cycle ending. I don't know where I stand there, just wanted to point it out. 

 

My own opinion could probably be summed up as: I couldn't care less.

 

 

[Loophole]

MierinWru, thanks for the link. Yet, strangely, Sammael seems to be alive, or alive again thanks to the dark one. Knife of Dreams, page 147.

 

As a side note, you are mistaken about the bore being sealed. The dark one's prison must be made whole again, so a Mieran in the next age can create a bore. The wheel turns and all that.

 

If you are referring to the part where they say Sammael sent a trolloc attack through the ways, the characters say this, but it is someone impersonating a forsaken. The characters are often wrong.

 

Like others have said Sammael is toast! no DO trickery, Being killed by mashadar is one of the ways the DO can't snatch you back up.

 

Also on the more philosophical note, i am unsure whether this turn of the wheel will be anything special. In one sense I think it should be different since I am reading a story about it. But on the other hand throughout the whole series there has a been a strong message about the cyclical nature of the wheel, to break it would break one of the core concepts of the WOT universe.

[golcarcol]

Not sure if this reply falls in here, but does Moridin's name come from the inscription on the Horn of Valere?

 

Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin (The grave is no bar to my call).

[MierinWru]

Also on the more philosophical note, i am unsure whether this turn of the wheel will be anything special. In one sense I think it should be different since I am reading a story about it. But on the other hand throughout the whole series there has a been a strong message about the cyclical nature of the wheel, to break it would break one of the core concepts of the WOT universe.

 

To be honest I actually hope that the wheel will stay intact and the world basically stays the same with the One Power, T'A'R and all that stuff. I'm too scared of finding out that Randland is just Earth in the distant past or even worse: I'm scared of Rand digging a huge hole trying to find another Choden Kal and ending up uncovering the Statue of Liberty... "Planet of the Apes"-Style. 

[salmidach]

I'm just wondering which one of the remaining forsaken will turn back to the Light and betray the Dark One

 

They all left the Light because the Dark One looked to be the best option, they basically picked the better side. One of them will turn back to the light, Asmodean nearly did.

[Dead Guy]

Haven't read the whole thread, don't have time right now, so sorry if this has been mentioned:

 

1. Mesaana. The way she is removed, so to speak, is pretty nice in that she's actually still alive, just useless. Don't know if she could be brought back in the short time before Tarmon Gaidon anyway, but as long as they keep her vegetable ass alive, she's going nowhere. Remains to be seen if her mind being broken is separate from her soul I guess.

 

2. I have a sneaking suspicion that Demandred is behind the converting of everyone in the Black Tower. I found the way the zombie Asha'mans creepy smiles were described to stand out... They seem pretty similar to how Taim has been acting all along? Maybe he was turned a long time ago, before the Black Tower was even set up? It was mentioned the dream spike can be used to allow only some to create gateways in and out of its sphere, do you think that's how they get the Asha'man out of there to a waiting Fade/Dreadlord circle? I wonder how the hell they're going to resolve that whole situation without seriously diminihsing the numbers of male channelers!

 

This would make the "Who the hell is Demandred" question obsolete. Demandred is Demandred, he's just not in the open, working with Taim as his Proxy?

 

3. Lanfear, guess we know why her power has weakened now huh? No severing/healing involved, it seems. Fascinating that "a man" came to the Finns to get her. Moridin, presumably?

 

I wonder what the status of the Moridin/Rand connection is as of now. It wasn't mentioned at all in this book except from another POV where it was noted he didn't seem to feel sick when channeling anymore?

[Duskfire]

I still have faith in Demandred; I don't need him around heaps to think he is a badass, which is basically what I think everytime I get his POV. Look at Shaidar Haran; he barely ever makes an appearence, but when he does he dominates. You dont need page time to make an impression. Although, I was dissapointed there was no Demandred in ToM admittedly.

 

I agree that Asmodean, strangely, was probably the most effective Chosen, with the exception of Ishamael of course (although to be fair, he did have a headstart on everyone.) Asmodean also came pretty close to defeating Rand in that battle of wills in Rhuidean. Rahvin was pretty effective too; I imagine if he hadn't been killed off he would have invaded Cairheren and Murandy at some point.

[daavorian]

Yeah, when listing Ishy's achievements it might be nice to credit him for...oh...I don't know...

 

1) Setting up the Black Ajah

2) Setting up the Seanchan (he advised Hawkwing to send Luthair, may have even corrupted the prophecies to screw with everything)

3) Destroying the major nations of the world every time they got too uppity after a millenium

[Cyf]

I think some people are too in love with the Forsaken. The Forsaken are, at heart, evil. And evil does not work together well. This is their problem. They are not omniscient nor omnipotent. They are arrogant, greedy, untrusting, and so on. Even their alliances are fraught with distrust. They lose, when they lose, when they are surprised (Be'lal and Balefire for instance) or their arrogance leads them to ruin (Moghedien), and so on. They are flawed. They are not demigods.

 

They just SEEM demigods becuase the Aes Sedai are so damn stupid and refuse to realize they don't know as much as they think they do. Example: 'He can sense channeling, maybe he didn't feel...maybe' from Moiraine in Illian. We're shown how this works later, when Rand captures Illian. No, the Forsaken aren't gods. He lays weaves of Saidin to sense weaves of Saidin/Saidar and inverts them all over the city. Preparation. Not gods.

 

With all their flaws, it makes -sense- they'd lose. There certainly is an issue that the good guys should have issues too, but I think people focus too much on death. Think of how much total /crap/ the 'good guys' have been through. Rand lost a hand, nearly went mad, was tortured for days by Aes Sedai, was basically raped by Alanna to bind him to her, and so on. Perrin had his wife kidnapped, was afraid he'd go insane. Mat has had it best off, until recently when ... well. Not the right post for that. :)

 

Death isn't the only consequence. I think they're fine, myself.

[analyticalkeys]

Not sure if this reply falls in here, but does Moridin's name come from the inscription on the Horn of Valere?

 

Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin (The grave is no bar to my call).

 

Moridin means "Death" so death/grave are a close fit

[mikael]

Yeah, like someone said, having the Forsaken amounting to 17 persons was probably a big mistake by RJ, they just lost all their credibility. Of course, it makes sense that they shouldn't live up to all the hype, but really, they can't win a 1on1 against anyone it seems. If the same achievements had been split among fewer members with a few losses among important light siders then they would've seemed like a force to be reckoned with.

 

Couldn't they at least have killed Egwene? ;) It's like, James Bond getting captured but not killed over and over and over. I get why they didn't kill Rand, but the others, why not kill Nynaeve when Moghedien had the chance? Will there never be a villian that acts rather than gloats? Graendal was a joke as well, hiding in a cave rather than just walking in undetected and kill Perrin. If all the Forsaken is good for is supervising plans that will eventually fail... it's a big pile of zzzzzz. The only reason I thought that Perrin would bite the dust was because the reviews had "this was the first time I felt that the DO may actually win" and "OMG YOU RUINED EVERYTHING" in them, I didn't really see anything that fit those descriptions so if anyone could tell me what they meant that would be swell.

 

I guess the Forsaken have one last book to prove themselves. I guess Demandred is bound to do something, but I hope Graendal isn't the one who will rise above all others, but I guess she will be. Graendal is really a chapter all on her own, that one is all talk and hype, got fooled by Sammael and is a bigger coward than Moghedien. Why did she talk about how Perrin needed to be caught in a tempest to be killed, set the trap with the trollocs, and not jump in and kill him together with Slayer? I'm disappoint.

[Lobes604]

Yeah, like someone said, having the Forsaken amounting to 17 persons was probably a big mistake by RJ, they just lost all their credibility. Of course, it makes sense that they shouldn't live up to all the hype, but really, they can't win a 1on1 against anyone it seems. If the same achievements had been split among fewer members with a few losses among important light siders then they would've seemed like a force to be reckoned with.

 

Couldn't they at least have killed Egwene? ;) It's like, James Bond getting captured but not killed over and over and over. I get why they didn't kill Rand, but the others, why not kill Nynaeve when Moghedien had the chance? Will there never be a villian that acts rather than gloats? Graendal was a joke as well, hiding in a cave rather than just walking in undetected and kill Perrin. If all the Forsaken is good for is supervising plans that will eventually fail... it's a big pile of zzzzzz. The only reason I thought that Perrin would bite the dust was because the reviews had "this was the first time I felt that the DO may actually win" and "OMG YOU RUINED EVERYTHING" in them, I didn't really see anything that fit those descriptions so if anyone could tell me what they meant that would be swell.

 

I guess the Forsaken have one last book to prove themselves. I guess Demandred is bound to do something, but I hope Graendal isn't the one who will rise above all others, but I guess she will be. Graendal is really a chapter all on her own, that one is all talk and hype, got fooled by Sammael and is a bigger coward than Moghedien. Why did she talk about how Perrin needed to be caught in a tempest to be killed, set the trap with the trollocs, and not jump in and kill him together with Slayer? I'm disappoint.

for one Perrin bitch slapped balefire

[mikael]

Yeah, like someone said, having the Forsaken amounting to 17 persons was probably a big mistake by RJ, they just lost all their credibility. Of course, it makes sense that they shouldn't live up to all the hype, but really, they can't win a 1on1 against anyone it seems. If the same achievements had been split among fewer members with a few losses among important light siders then they would've seemed like a force to be reckoned with.

 

Couldn't they at least have killed Egwene? ;) It's like, James Bond getting captured but not killed over and over and over. I get why they didn't kill Rand, but the others, why not kill Nynaeve when Moghedien had the chance? Will there never be a villian that acts rather than gloats? Graendal was a joke as well, hiding in a cave rather than just walking in undetected and kill Perrin. If all the Forsaken is good for is supervising plans that will eventually fail... it's a big pile of zzzzzz. The only reason I thought that Perrin would bite the dust was because the reviews had "this was the first time I felt that the DO may actually win" and "OMG YOU RUINED EVERYTHING" in them, I didn't really see anything that fit those descriptions so if anyone could tell me what they meant that would be swell.

 

I guess the Forsaken have one last book to prove themselves. I guess Demandred is bound to do something, but I hope Graendal isn't the one who will rise above all others, but I guess she will be. Graendal is really a chapter all on her own, that one is all talk and hype, got fooled by Sammael and is a bigger coward than Moghedien. Why did she talk about how Perrin needed to be caught in a tempest to be killed, set the trap with the trollocs, and not jump in and kill him together with Slayer? I'm disappoint.

for one Perrin bitch slapped balefire

 

That was in TAR.. And even there, he couldn't kill Slayer on his own, so why didn't Graendal step in to tilt the scales?

[Jnai]

So, is there any hope for a Lanfear redemption? Of all the Forsaken apart from Ishmael, Lanfear has played probably the largest role in the series. Her motivations have always been dubious; she's always seemed more power-hungry and LTT-hungry than obviously working for the Dark One. While some forsaken seem simply too far gone to ever turn (can anyone really imagine a "good" version of Graendal?), we've known Lanfear's pre-forsaken name and story for quite some time.

 

Given the Epilogue, is there any chance that she makes one final good act against the shadow in the name of Lews Therin? When push comes to shove, when she has to choose between the Dark One and LT, do you think there's any hope?

[lukeke]

Mesaana was a pretty big disappointment. She showed up for a few seconds and got put in a permanent drool state.

 

Demandred was a pretty big disappointment. He didn't show up. As usual.

 

Why are the Forsaken still part of the books? Somebody remind me?

 

Apparently he did show up quite a bit, we just do not know who his alter ego is ;)

[lukeke]

Demandred did show up, however briefly, and spoke to the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower. I can't be the only one who is certain that Demandred is Mazrim Taim. He obviously has the second dreamspike that Moridin had (the other he gave to Graendal) which is why the gateways don't work. Graendel says as much when she flees to her hideout inside that island. Jordan has made a habit of using these alter ego's, especially for the forsaken. As an aside, Olver is Gaidal Cain.

[analyticalkeys]

Demandred did show up, however briefly, and spoke to the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower. I can't be the only one who is certain that Demandred is Mazrim Taim. He obviously has the second dreamspike that Moridin had (the other he gave to Graendal) which is why the gateways don't work. Graendel says as much when she flees to her hideout inside that island. Jordan has made a habit of using these alter ego's, especially for the forsaken. As an aside, Olver is Gaidal Cain.

 

Both wrong assumptions. Jordan has clearly stated that Taim is Taim, and Olver is NOT Gaidal Cain.

[MierinWru]

So, is there any hope for a Lanfear redemption?

I agree with everything you said and I'm actually hoping for a Lanfear redemption. But you know what... I'm afraid that IF Jordan/Sanderson let her turn to the good side she'll just die in the process. Some cliché sacrifice as is usually the case with such stories.