The Nature of Tel'aran'rhiod

[Luckers]

Based on Sharamen's question in the Question thread.

 

Not a simple question but may as well ask here.

This is about the nature of TAR

Hopper has always insisted that wolves who die in TAR die a "final death". I'd assumed earlier that it was only dead wolves who lived in TAR who died "final deaths" there if they got killed. Now I'm wondering about that assumption, post the stag incident when he prevents Perrin killing a stag.

It's not clear but was that stag a living dreaming animal (like many of the wolves in TAR)?

If so, does "final death" mean that GLoD cannot resurrect any living creature that happens to have dreamt its way into TAR and died there?

if so, are the BA and AS who died in TAR all now outside GLoD's grasp (whether they'll be reborn eventually is a different issue)?

Contradictory evidence - Slayer kills wolves in TAR and seems to turn them into Darkhounds. That argues GLoD can pull them.

 

Further speculation:

Was Graendal wandering the Caemlyn Palace in TAR and did she pull Asmo into TAR in the flesh and kill him there? We don't know the method and there is that puzzling quote from RJ that GLoD couldn't resurrect Asmo because of how and where he died. We don't know the method G used to kill him and it definitely isn't balefire because the "where" would be irrelevant.

[Terez]

Not a simple question but may as well ask here.

This is about the nature of TAR

Hopper has always insisted that wolves who die in TAR die a "final death". I'd assumed earlier that it was only dead wolves who lived in TAR who died "final deaths" there if they got killed. Now I'm wondering about that assumption, post the stag incident when he prevents Perrin killing a stag.

Birgitte also mentioned that death for the Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod is permanent.

 

It's not clear but was that stag a living dreaming animal (like many of the wolves in TAR)?

All non-domesticated animals have reflections in Tel'aran'rhiod. When Elayne went to Luca's menagerie there, she saw the lions in cages, but not the dogs or the horses, etc.

 

If so, does "final death" mean that GLoD cannot resurrect any living creature that happens to have dreamt its way into TAR and died there?

I don't think that a dreaming person would die the final death there, but there might be some room for doubt when Perrin goes there 'too strongly'. It was indicated by the Dark One that Rahvin was unavailable to him because of the balefire, not because of where he died. And of course, Rahvin was there in the flesh...but Birgitte seemed to indicate that her death in Tel'aran'rhiod would be permanent, but she didn't warn of the same danger for the girls. I think it's only permanent for the Heroes who are already dead, and for the non-domesticated animals that have reflections there.

 

Contradictory evidence - Slayer kills wolves in TAR and seems to turn them into Darkhounds. That argues GLoD can pull them.

Perhaps it would have been permanent if not for the fact that they were killed by Slayer, who can turn them into Darkhounds.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Contradictory evidence - Slayer kills wolves in TAR and seems to turn them into Darkhounds. That argues GLoD can pull them.

 

Perhaps it would have been permanent if not for the fact that they were killed by Slayer, who can turn them into Darkhounds.

 

This would beg the question of how long Darkhounds have been in existance...

 

OR

 

How long has Slayer lived for?

[Terez]

Only if Slayer were the only means of creating Darkhounds.

 

“Seven,” Elyas murmured in surprise. “Even an Aes Sedai would have to go some to do that. Most tales of Darkhounds are just people frightened by the dark.” Frowning at the tracks crossing the smoothed stone, he shook his head, and sadness entered his voice when he said, “They were wolves, once. The souls of wolves, anyway, caught and twisted by the Shadow. That was the core used to make Darkhounds, the Shadowbrothers. I think that’s why the wolves have to be at the Last Battle. Or maybe Darkhounds were made because wolves will be there, to fight them. The Pattern makes Sovarra lace look like a piece of string, sometimes. Anyway, it was a long time ago, during the Trolloc Wars as near as I can make out, and the War of the Shadow before that. Wolves have long memories. What a wolf knows is never really forgotten while other wolves remain alive. They avoid talking about Darkhounds, though, and they avoid Darkhounds, too. A hundred wolves could die trying to kill one Shadowbrother. Worse, if they fail, the Darkhound can eat the souls of those that aren’t quite dead yet, and in a year or so, there’d be a new pack of Shadowbrothers that didn’t remember ever being wolves. I hope they don’t remember, anyway.”

[dwn]

It seems to me that Hopper's 'final death' comment referred to the death of the lingering T'A'R reflection/spirit of a dead wolf (i.e. Hopper himself). That would put him into the same category as the Heroes of the Horn. If so, the question becomes: does a living wolf killed in T'A'R simply die, or die the 'final death'.

 

-- dwn

[Terez]

It seems to me that Hopper's 'final death' comment referred to the death of the lingering T'A'R reflection/spirit of a dead wolf (i.e. Hopper himself). That would put him into the same category as the Heroes of the Horn. If so, the question becomes: does a living wolf killed in T'A'R simply die, or die the 'final death'.

Hopper says that any wolf that dies there will die the 'final death', not just dead wolves. Again, probably due to the fact that they, as non-domesticated animals, have actual reflections in Tel'aran'rhiod. Hopper even assumes that the same would go for Perrin, who is obviously alive, but he is not completely sure.

[Sharaman]

@ Terez - thanks ok, complicated.

Rahvin was still attached by the taint-siphon tube to GLoD but Asmo wasn't. That might make a difference - I am postulating Asmo's death in TAR is also in-the-flesh. If he didn't die in TAR, he died inside a Gateway or Skim Platform maybe? How else does "where" become critical to the method?

 

Another thing. The DSpike. Do people feel the method of dome penetration is new/unique to wolves?

Or else, could LTT walk through., Hazily, I'm wondering if Rand tries to raid the BT in TAR and lands up in trouble from which Perrin must rescue him.

 

Carlinya - the raven vision? What's with that?

She dies in TAR with no apparent Seanchan connection.

[Duskfire]

Carlinya - the raven vision? What's with that?

She dies in TAR with no apparent Seanchan connection.

 

Yeah I thought that was odd to. Didn't fit with the aura at all. It wasn't even like Sheriams aura which seemed something completely different but actually worked in the end. Ravens could be the Shadow, I get that. But the tattoo part - what did that mean?

[Dead Guy]

If he didn't die in TAR, he died inside a Gateway or Skim Platform maybe? How else does "where" become critical to the method?

 

Would fit pretty well with "Darkness took him", no? Maybe the Dark One can't ressurect him (should he want to) because he's falling through darkness at the moment :p Though he should die of thirst after a few days there I suppose. Maybe the skimming world is outside the pattern in a way that prevents transmigration?

[FarShainMael]

Did I miss it, or was there no mention whatever of the Unseen Eyes?

[FarShainMael]

@ Terez - thanks ok, complicated.

Rahvin was still attached by the taint-siphon tube to GLoD but Asmo wasn't. That might make a difference - I am postulating Asmo's death in TAR is also in-the-flesh. If he didn't die in TAR, he died inside a Gateway or Skim Platform maybe? How else does "where" become critical to the method?

 

Oh I do hope so, it would mean I was half right.. sigh

[asunawa]

So we got a big show-down in TAR where almost everyone channels. But Ive always thought that it wasnt possible, or that only spirit was possible to channel when you dreamt yourself to TAR. Did i miss something?

[Byzantine279]

Just a question, but why is it that Perrin tried to make himself stronger against slayer, instead of imagining that anyone his hammer hits dies. I mean think about it, beliefs in TAR come to life, all he has to do is believe his hammer is an automatic one-hit-ko and it will be exactly that. Slayer would have died without ever worrying about the blow.

[Cyf]

So we got a big show-down in TAR where almost everyone channels. But Ive always thought that it wasnt possible, or that only spirit was possible to channel when you dreamt yourself to TAR. Did i miss something?

 

You can only channel Spirit in the /normal world/ while asleep. In T'A'R itself, you can channel anything. It just won't affect anyone in the normal world. We've seen people do things like throw Fire (and balefire!) or use Air while in T'A'R before. :)

[yoniy0]

Would fit pretty well with "Darkness took him", no?

It's "death took him."

 

Did I miss it, or was there no mention whatever of the Unseen Eyes?

Ha! It's not Luckers's fault. Peter confused us with his response, and so likelier options were discounted.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

Carlinya - the raven vision? What's with that?

She dies in TAR with no apparent Seanchan connection.

 

Well, did we see how she died? Maybe one of the Black Ajah used the Dreamland to create a raven tattoo shuriken and threw it at her head.

 

Maybe she went to a back alley in Tar Valon and got a raven tattooed on her ass to impress her biker boyfriend, but didn't want to tell any of the other Aes Sedai because she thought they'd laugh at her so nobody knew.

 

Maybe a raven tattoo vision means that you're going to get a fireball thrown at your head in Dreamland by the Black Ajah and it's just more obscure than most of Min's other visions.

 

Maybe there's too many minor characters to keep track of and BS killed one of them without remembering some random, irrelevant vision about her.

[Sharaman]

No, we don't know how Carlinya died.

I don't think RJ wrote in random irrelevant visions, especially for Min.

It's not only Brandon - there's a team checking for continuity of detail.

Hell, even the encyclopedia entry has that vision.

[dwn]

No, we don't know how Carlinya died.

I don't think RJ wrote in random irrelevant visions, especially for Min.

It's not only Brandon - there's a team checking for continuity of detail.

Hell, even the encyclopedia entry has that vision.

 

Someone inquired about Carlinya at a signing (the Q&A thread has details). Apparently her death wasn't a mistake, but the general interpretation of Min's raven viewing was incorrect.

 

-- dwn

[Byzantine279]

The Raven was probably the symbol for whoever killed her.

 

now is anyone going to answer my question about why Perrin didn't simply do that?

[jwillis7]

i think what everyone is overlooking is that the OP is calling the Dark One the great lord of the dark....Darkfriend!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[smileyman]

No, we don't know how Carlinya died.

I don't think RJ wrote in random irrelevant visions, especially for Min.

It's not only Brandon - there's a team checking for continuity of detail.

Hell, even the encyclopedia entry has that vision.

 

This is Min's viewing of Carlinya

 

"a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know it's meaning."

 

Everybody interpreted it to mean that she would end up da'mane do to the Seanchan connection to the Ravens, however that's never explained by Min. Ravens are also commonly associated with death as well as with the Dark One as his eyes and ears in the Wheel of Time. It's not an error by Brandon or RJ, but by the fans in assuming she'd live.

[jwillis7]

Birgitte also mentioned that death for the Heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod is permanent.

 

i always took it as that if something that has died and is waiting in TAR dies then they are dead forever ex. hopper or if Brigitte or another hero of the horn were killed in between respinning. I think if a live person like all those people who died in that awesome fight just die normal. I think someone who dies, who has a thread in the pattern, in TAR just dies but if that person is in "limbo" TAR dies, since there is no thread to tie off, is dead for ever...FOR-EVE-RR

[jwillis7]

i think wolves are different than other animals in this universe. I think they might have threads since we see they are making a choice to fight in the last battle and we know they are not mindless animals. I don't see a Narnia thing where all the animals of the world turn up for the last battle i don't think the stag or the ravens have souls to be respun.

[Sharaman]

No, we don't know how Carlinya died.

I don't think RJ wrote in random irrelevant visions, especially for Min.

It's not only Brandon - there's a team checking for continuity of detail.

Hell, even the encyclopedia entry has that vision.

 

This is Min's viewing of Carlinya

 

"a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know it's meaning."

 

Everybody interpreted it to mean that she would end up da'mane do to the Seanchan connection to the Ravens, however that's never explained by Min. Ravens are also commonly associated with death as well as with the Dark One as his eyes and ears in the Wheel of Time. It's not an error by Brandon or RJ, but by the fans in assuming she'd live.

Min's vision may have pertained to death - that's fine. But it would be something specific and we don't see that or hear about it.

See her vision of Sheriam where Min didn't have a clue - it was an exact picture of Sheriam's moment of truth.

One would expect something more specific than killed by the Shadow for Carlinya.

[smileyman]

No, we don't know how Carlinya died.

I don't think RJ wrote in random irrelevant visions, especially for Min.

It's not only Brandon - there's a team checking for continuity of detail.

Hell, even the encyclopedia entry has that vision.

 

This is Min's viewing of Carlinya

 

"a raven floating beside her dark hair; more a drawing of the bird than the bird itself. She thought it was a tattoo, but she did not know it's meaning."

 

Everybody interpreted it to mean that she would end up da'mane do to the Seanchan connection to the Ravens, however that's never explained by Min. Ravens are also commonly associated with death as well as with the Dark One as his eyes and ears in the Wheel of Time. It's not an error by Brandon or RJ, but by the fans in assuming she'd live.

Min's vision may have pertained to death - that's fine. But it would be something specific and we don't see that or hear about it.

See her vision of Sheriam where Min didn't have a clue - it was an exact picture of Sheriam's moment of truth.

One would expect something more specific than killed by the Shadow for Carlinya.

 

Why would you expect more? Not everything needs to be wrapped up nice and neat or explained in detail.