Nakomi

[Jong]

Out of curiosity, do we have any real authoritative word from anyone that the Jenn really are gone? The only place I remember their fate being discussed is the Rhuidean memories and the fact that we have never seen them so far as we know.

 

On the other hand, Rhuidean is described as being in the lands of the Jenn Aiel and the Jenn themselves are described as the thirteenth clan, the clan that is not. I get the feeling that in the present day the Jenn are really just a legend and that the Aiel themselves do not know if they really are still alive or not.

[blazetheearth]

Out of curiosity, do we have any real authoritative word from anyone that the Jenn really are gone? The only place I remember their fate being discussed is the Rhuidean memories and the fact that we have never seen them so far as we know.

 

On the other hand, Rhuidean is described as being in the lands of the Jenn Aiel and the Jenn themselves are described as the thirteenth clan, the clan that is not. I get the feeling that in the present day the Jenn are really just a legend and that the Aiel themselves do not know if they really are still alive or not.

 

Well, when we look at the visions of that Rand had and see the AS living with the Jenn Foretell, the Jenn said that the whole reason for having Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones come go through the columns is because the Jenn are not going to be around to educate the rest of the Aiel about their origins. They said that they new their time was up. That said, when we look at the vision that took place just prior to that one (timeline wise, not in the order they appear in the book). We know that while the rest of the Clans have gotten larger, the Jenn had been deteriorating in numbers since before the Aiel reached the Three-Fold Land. Now if you take a small population, put them in a valley, and (by their customs) seclude them from bearing children from outside the limited genepool in the valley, it would take much less than even 1000 years (and the Foretelling vision was less than 500 years AB (almost 2500 years ago)) for the entire group to inbreed themselves out of existence. The Jenn cast out anyone that ever used a weapon, there is no reason to think that a person raised among the Miagoma as an algad'a'siswai, who put down his spears in order to take up the Way of the Leaf, would be allowed to join the Jenn. So their genepool would have been completely stagnant for 2500 years. I doubt that if Nakomi were a surviving Jenn, she would have still resembled something that Avi could recognize as human, much less think that she was Aiel.

[blazetheearth]

I just caught something on a re-read that (IMO unfortunately) lends more credence to it being one of the WO's. The WO Dreamwalkers theory is one that I didn't really like. It felt a bit contrived to me. But the major point that Nakomi seems to be trying to get across is to make Avi think about the 'future of the Aiel'. She was not the first to ask this particular question of Avi. In TGS we see someone else try to provoke this line of thinking for her.

 

Melaine stared blindly at the broken building. "A remnant of a remnant,"she said, as if to herself. "And if he leaves us burned and broken, like those boards? What will become of the Aiel then? Do we limp back to the Three-fold Land and continue as we did before? Many will not want to leave. These lands offer too much."

 

The next 2 paragraphs are of Avi thinking about the fact that she had never considered what would happen after the LB. Then she gets told to go wash, and the subject is not brought back up again until the Nakomi scene in ToM.

[Canis Rufus]

I don't want to get tossed off the island so to say but....

 

Is it so hard to assume now that Rand is all super good guy that we should not expect there to be echos or far be it to say "Bubbles of Good?" I know it might sound crazy but the pattern is all about balance and we have bubbles of evil happening every other plot device. Just a thought I thought I would toss out there.

 

That said

 

I tend to think it is simply part of the WO process. Avi did say '(she) could have just traveled there but (she) would miss part of the process.' I am paraphrasing as I don't have a book here to quote off of. It could simply be a weave that Avi triggered like a ward that sets that event into motion. Something so old that even the WO themselves don’t know who started it but it is part of the ritual. What was said could affect each WO different based on their own concerns, something to help them see the bigger picture.

[asudlow]

Well I agree that she was a Jenn Aiel projection from the columns at Rhuidean, and part of the process of preparing the initiate for what they are about to witness. Every potential WO would have a similar experience, which is why they were so insistent she walk at least part of the way instead of Traveling straight there.

[asha man]

Maybe the wise one dreamwalkers saw that Avi should not Travel directly to Rhuidean, and that's why they told her to walk some of the way. They knew that there would be something fateful that would happen to her as she traveled there.

As for what did happen, I'm leaning towards the 'bubble of good' thing that was mentioned before. Maybe the current weakness in the pattern allowed something good to slip through. Reality definitely seemed to be more malleable during the interaction, something like TAR or the worlds visited through some of the initiation ter'angreal.

[Aeo Sedai]

I know the creator theory has been dismissed before, but Nakomi really struck me as being the creator. I'm not sure what she did really counts as interference.

 

To have Verin be the one seems to be a little too much, and while I realize it might be workable chronologically, if it was meant to be Verin, surely this chapter would have happened in the last book, before she died? Otherwise it seems to be far too confusing. Secondly, I find it difficult to believe that she'd be able to sneak up on Avi, and even less likely she could do so, then sneak back to remove the items she left around the fire. While the dream world theory is an interesting one, it seems unreasonable that Verin could pull Avi into the world, while inverting weaves, and hiding her ability to channel, while using the mirror of mists, and concentrating enough to hold the Tel in such a fashion that it looks like the normal world (since, IIRC, it doesn't).

 

The portal stone idea is interesting, but I don't know how reasonable it is so I can't comment on it.

 

The reason I suspect the Creator-as-Nakomi is that, the Dark one appears to be trapped within the world, so it stands to reason that the creator inhabits the pattern as well, just as the Dark One does, so there does seem to be a precedent for divine beings to be "in the world". Secondly, she talks and acts in a very odd fashion, and seems to display channeller like abilities without the normal signs of a woman channelling. Finally, she does seem to care for the Aiel people in a way the Forsaken or other DF don't.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Out of curiosity, do we have any real authoritative word from anyone that the Jenn really are gone? The only place I remember their fate being discussed is the Rhuidean memories and the fact that we have never seen them so far as we know.

 

On the other hand, Rhuidean is described as being in the lands of the Jenn Aiel and the Jenn themselves are described as the thirteenth clan, the clan that is not. I get the feeling that in the present day the Jenn are really just a legend and that the Aiel themselves do not know if they really are still alive or not.

 

Well, when we look at the visions of that Rand had and see the AS living with the Jenn Foretell, the Jenn said that the whole reason for having Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones come go through the columns is because the Jenn are not going to be around to educate the rest of the Aiel about their origins. They said that they new their time was up. That said, when we look at the vision that took place just prior to that one (timeline wise, not in the order they appear in the book). We know that while the rest of the Clans have gotten larger, the Jenn had been deteriorating in numbers since before the Aiel reached the Three-Fold Land. Now if you take a small population, put them in a valley, and (by their customs) seclude them from bearing children from outside the limited genepool in the valley, it would take much less than even 1000 years (and the Foretelling vision was less than 500 years AB (almost 2500 years ago)) for the entire group to inbreed themselves out of existence. The Jenn cast out anyone that ever used a weapon, there is no reason to think that a person raised among the Miagoma as an algad'a'siswai, who put down his spears in order to take up the Way of the Leaf, would be allowed to join the Jenn. So their genepool would have been completely stagnant for 2500 years. I doubt that if Nakomi were a surviving Jenn, she would have still resembled something that Avi could recognize as human, much less think that she was Aiel.

 

 

All it takes is a couple of families who stuck to the ways of the Jenn. Families sent to join the Aiel and live among them until the time of the DR and Aviendha. They intermarried with other Aiel and passed on an unknown foretelling by one of the last Aes Sedai until the time had come to influence Aviendha so that she can figure out the path to the future of the Aiel. No freaky inbreeding necessary.

[DocBean]

When I read the scene, and I've only read it once, my first thought was Spirit-Guide; well Forsaken at first, then Spirit-Guide after I finished the chapter.

The Aeil seem very American-Indianish to me, and the long journey for an Aiel Woman to become a Wise One is too similar to an Indian boy to become a man.

 

I believe a Jenn Aiel is a possibility, we have seen ghosts, and we've even seen cities where ghosts walk about and scare the locals. So Nokomi could be that.

I don't think it's a big step to have a ghost interact with a person, when we've seen peddlers and wagons disappear into ghost towns.

 

 

However, the cooking and food bit throws me off. I don't think a regular ghost would make Aviendha's favorite childhood meal, and the whole scene screamed of Dreamland.

That's why I'm guessing it's in her head, and part of the journey to become a Wise One.

 

I believe Aviendha more then any other Aeil is struggling with what she is, and what she will become.

This seems like a very natural apparition for someone in her place. Even to go so far as to call Rand the Dragon, and question why to return to the Waste.

She's getting soft, she knows it, and she's coming up with a rational reason to stop fighting it.

 

 

I like the Verin idea, but would never have figured out the timeline works out if others didn't already do it.

She was never even an option in my head. What I don't like about it is that everyone is now starting to equate all good things that happen with Verin, and that's lame.

 

As for the "Bubble of Good" idea, I'd say there isn't a such thing as a "Bubble-of-Evil" All "bubbles-of-evil" steer the characters in the direction they need to go.

They're basically the Wheel's way of using the Dark One's own energy to line things up the way they need to.

[FarShainMael]

I wondered whether Avi had entered T'A'R somehow. The scene didn't feel 'real' to me either.

[herid]

Out of curiosity, do we have any real authoritative word from anyone that the Jenn really are gone? The only place I remember their fate being discussed is the Rhuidean memories and the fact that we have never seen them so far as we know.

 

On the other hand, Rhuidean is described as being in the lands of the Jenn Aiel and the Jenn themselves are described as the thirteenth clan, the clan that is not. I get the feeling that in the present day the Jenn are really just a legend and that the Aiel themselves do not know if they really are still alive or not.

 

Well, when we look at the visions of that Rand had and see the AS living with the Jenn Foretell, the Jenn said that the whole reason for having Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones come go through the columns is because the Jenn are not going to be around to educate the rest of the Aiel about their origins. They said that they new their time was up. That said, when we look at the vision that took place just prior to that one (timeline wise, not in the order they appear in the book). We know that while the rest of the Clans have gotten larger, the Jenn had been deteriorating in numbers since before the Aiel reached the Three-Fold Land. Now if you take a small population, put them in a valley, and (by their customs) seclude them from bearing children from outside the limited genepool in the valley, it would take much less than even 1000 years (and the Foretelling vision was less than 500 years AB (almost 2500 years ago)) for the entire group to inbreed themselves out of existence. The Jenn cast out anyone that ever used a weapon, there is no reason to think that a person raised among the Miagoma as an algad'a'siswai, who put down his spears in order to take up the Way of the Leaf, would be allowed to join the Jenn. So their genepool would have been completely stagnant for 2500 years. I doubt that if Nakomi were a surviving Jenn, she would have still resembled something that Avi could recognize as human, much less think that she was Aiel.

 

 

All it takes is a couple of families who stuck to the ways of the Jenn. Families sent to join the Aiel and live among them until the time of the DR and Aviendha. They intermarried with other Aiel and passed on an unknown foretelling by one of the last Aes Sedai until the time had come to influence Aviendha so that she can figure out the path to the future of the Aiel. No freaky inbreeding necessary.

 

ah, yes. a couple of families living among other Aiel without inbreeding and maintaining the way of the leaf in secret for thousands of years. they keep converting other Aiel to the way of the leaf to marry them, also in secret. and then their kids do what? if they have more than one on a regular basis their numbers would grow quickly. or is it that only the oldest one keeps the way of the leaf and the others go join regular Aiel? I'd like to see that family conversation around the fire. you son keep the way of the leaf as our ancestors were sworn to do. and you my daughter go join the killers. so sorry, but there is no place for you here.

[herid]

I wondered whether Avi had entered T'A'R somehow. The scene didn't feel 'real' to me either.

Either that or she is in a regular dream. The food cooks far too quickly. It also tastes very good. the scene happens shortly before Rand's epiphany. At that point in time pretty much nothing tastes good anywhere. but it's all possible in TAR just by imagining it.

[DocBean]

It's also possible she's in T'A'R without being a dreamer.

 

Regular people go there all the time; however, they're usually gone within a few seconds.

Egwene also alters people's dreams to send messages. It's possible that someone altered Aviendha's in a way that she wouldn't remember it was a dream.

 

I still think it was her subconscious Spirit-Guide.

[zidfrekle]

Just an idea, but I wonder if Nakomi could be one of the Aes Sedai or an Accepted/Novice that lived among the Jenn Aiel. We know that the Aes Sedai traveled with them, and this would explain the use of calling Avi "child" like she is a novice. It could also explain that she would have picked up many Aiel customs without actually being Aiel. She would also be able to invert her weaves so that Avi didn't notice she could channel, or maybe Avi just didnt notice it, as we see at certain points in the series Elayne and others feel a kinship toward someone then later realize it's because they could channel. The last of the Jenn didn't disappear until well after the Breaking, so a channeler would possibly have been able to survive this long, especially if they hadn't held the Oath Rod. Avi was exhausted and had a lot on her mind, it's possible she would have missed the ability in Nakomi if she wasn't holding the Power.

That being said, I like the Verin theory too, but I'm not sure how likely it is.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Out of curiosity, do we have any real authoritative word from anyone that the Jenn really are gone? The only place I remember their fate being discussed is the Rhuidean memories and the fact that we have never seen them so far as we know.

 

On the other hand, Rhuidean is described as being in the lands of the Jenn Aiel and the Jenn themselves are described as the thirteenth clan, the clan that is not. I get the feeling that in the present day the Jenn are really just a legend and that the Aiel themselves do not know if they really are still alive or not.

 

Well, when we look at the visions of that Rand had and see the AS living with the Jenn Foretell, the Jenn said that the whole reason for having Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones come go through the columns is because the Jenn are not going to be around to educate the rest of the Aiel about their origins. They said that they new their time was up. That said, when we look at the vision that took place just prior to that one (timeline wise, not in the order they appear in the book). We know that while the rest of the Clans have gotten larger, the Jenn had been deteriorating in numbers since before the Aiel reached the Three-Fold Land. Now if you take a small population, put them in a valley, and (by their customs) seclude them from bearing children from outside the limited genepool in the valley, it would take much less than even 1000 years (and the Foretelling vision was less than 500 years AB (almost 2500 years ago)) for the entire group to inbreed themselves out of existence. The Jenn cast out anyone that ever used a weapon, there is no reason to think that a person raised among the Miagoma as an algad'a'siswai, who put down his spears in order to take up the Way of the Leaf, would be allowed to join the Jenn. So their genepool would have been completely stagnant for 2500 years. I doubt that if Nakomi were a surviving Jenn, she would have still resembled something that Avi could recognize as human, much less think that she was Aiel.

 

 

All it takes is a couple of families who stuck to the ways of the Jenn. Families sent to join the Aiel and live among them until the time of the DR and Aviendha. They intermarried with other Aiel and passed on an unknown foretelling by one of the last Aes Sedai until the time had come to influence Aviendha so that she can figure out the path to the future of the Aiel. No freaky inbreeding necessary.

 

ah, yes. a couple of families living among other Aiel without inbreeding and maintaining the way of the leaf in secret for thousands of years. they keep converting other Aiel to the way of the leaf to marry them, also in secret. and then their kids do what? if they have more than one on a regular basis their numbers would grow quickly. or is it that only the oldest one keeps the way of the leaf and the others go join regular Aiel? I'd like to see that family conversation around the fire. you son keep the way of the leaf as our ancestors were sworn to do. and you my daughter go join the killers. so sorry, but there is no place for you here.

 

The knowledge being passed along the women of the line would be enough, wouldn't it? Only the Far Darei Mai carry the spear and any daughter who shows tendencies that she might pick up the spear or one who's unreliable won't be told. Simple. And if there's a man who fits the requirement well he's got to become a blacksmith if he wants to follow the way of the leaf. Just like Amys and Rhuarc never told Liah about what they saw in Rhuidean it wouldn't be a common topic in such families.

It's not as if the descendants would be as radical as their forbears. Their duty would be to ensure that the knowledge be preserved so the Aiel could have a future and they are aware that until the Last Battle is done the Aiel will definitely need their spears. There wouldn't be any ostrachizing

[chinnma]

Realy!? Noone's realized that Nakomi is Demandred who distorted the Ter'angreal to manipulate Aviendha into talking Rand out of the Dragon's Peace? Haha just kidding

[herid]

]

 

The knowledge being passed along the women of the line would be enough, wouldn't it? Only the Far Darei Mai carry the spear and any daughter who shows tendencies that she might pick up the spear or one who's unreliable won't be told. Simple. And if there's a man who fits the requirement well he's got to become a blacksmith if he wants to follow the way of the leaf. Just like Amys and Rhuarc never told Liah about what they saw in Rhuidean it wouldn't be a common topic in such families.

It's not as if the descendants would be as radical as their forbears. Their duty would be to ensure that the knowledge be preserved so the Aiel could have a future and they are aware that until the Last Battle is done the Aiel will definitely need their spears. There wouldn't be any ostrachizing

knowledge is already passed along via Wise Ones. we are talking about actually living according to the way of the leaf. in a warrior society like Aiel it would be utterly impossible to keep something like this secret from those around you especially family. the way of the leaf apparently doesn't even let you harm animals so they'd all have to be vegetarians as Tinkers are. and what if a couple has no daughters? that is bound to happen many times over so many generations.

[b3arz3rg3r]

]

 

The knowledge being passed along the women of the line would be enough, wouldn't it? Only the Far Darei Mai carry the spear and any daughter who shows tendencies that she might pick up the spear or one who's unreliable won't be told. Simple. And if there's a man who fits the requirement well he's got to become a blacksmith if he wants to follow the way of the leaf. Just like Amys and Rhuarc never told Liah about what they saw in Rhuidean it wouldn't be a common topic in such families.

It's not as if the descendants would be as radical as their forbears. Their duty would be to ensure that the knowledge be preserved so the Aiel could have a future and they are aware that until the Last Battle is done the Aiel will definitely need their spears. There wouldn't be any ostrachizing

knowledge is already passed along via Wise Ones. we are talking about actually living according to the way of the leaf. in a warrior society like Aiel it would be utterly impossible to keep something like this secret from those around you especially family. the way of the leaf apparently doesn't even let you harm animals so they'd all have to be vegetarians as Tinkers are. and what if a couple has no daughters? that is bound to happen many times over so many generations.

 

The Wise Ones as a whole are hardly objective where the future of the Aiel is concerned. Individual ones are different, but as a whole they are as conservative and opposed to change as any other ancient group of powerful people.

 

Being a vegetarian is just a simple pecularity, it's not something which needs to be kept hidden. With Aiel I doubt anyone would even remark on it and so what if a couple has no daughters, either a son or a granddaughter would be told or they would find someone else who's reliable enough. And we were talking about a couple of families. Plurarl.

If all else failed they could still try going through a trustworthy Wise One. Finally, with figures like Nakomi among them I'm sure they found a couple of capable ones.

 

The Jenn saw the Aiel as misguided, but they knew they were the same people. They cared for them and they were aware that the warriorlike nature was something the Aiel needed. It's the future after the last battle which concerns them.

 

I'm not saying there being a secret order of Jenn is an ideal explanation. Far from it. But unless Nakomi stepped out from a stasis chamber in Rhuidean I can't think of any other group who would be responsible for Nakomi. Verin just lacks motivation, skills and knowledge. The Wise Ones wouldn't choose such a roundabout measure. Time travel is ridiculous. As is the possibility of a Forsaken impersonator. Ghosts wouldn't interact with Aviendha and Aviendha isn't suffering from a personality disorder which would cause her to make up the whole Nakomi personae. Who or what is left?

[Terez]

the way of the leaf apparently doesn't even let you harm animals so they'd all have to be vegetarians as Tinkers are.

The Tinkers are vegetarians, but I'm not so sure that the Da'shain Aiel were:

 

When Alijha started to pick up one of the swords, though, Lewin stopped him. "No, Alijha. That is a weapon, made to kill people. It has no other use." Alijha said nothing, only ran his eyes over the four dead bodies, looked at the spears Luca was winding with blankets to carry Charlin's body on. Lewin refused to look at the villagers. "A spear can put food in the pots, Alijha. A sword cannot. It is forbidden by the Way."

 

...

 

Adan stepped back. "You... killed? Killed men? What of the Covenant? We harm no one. No one! There is no reason good enough to justify killing another human being. None!"

It would kind of make sense, for the Tinkers to overdo it the Leaf thing, as the other Aiel abandoned it more or less completely.

[herid]

 

I'm not saying there being a secret order of Jenn is an ideal explanation.

not ideal?! it's utterly impossible. the fact that you don't know who else it can be is an entirely different matter. I don't know either but whoever she is she is certainly not Jenn. I've seen it suggested that it could be Avi's subconsciousness talking to her in her own dream. or it could be Amys. she is worried about the future of the Aiel and she wouldn't be able to tell Avi who she is because she is forbidden to talk to her openly once Avi's journey to Rhuidean started. and she would be able to find Avi's dream easily. or it could be somebody else. Avi went to sleep next to a huge rock. Rand's experience in TGH shows that sleeping next to strange rocks might be a bad idea for a channeler. if it was some kind of ter'angreal who knows what it could have done to her. the possibilities would be pretty broad.

 

 

the way of the leaf apparently doesn't even let you harm animals so they'd all have to be vegetarians as Tinkers are.

The Tinkers are vegetarians, but I'm not so sure that the Da'shain Aiel were:

 

When Alijha started to pick up one of the swords, though, Lewin stopped him. "No, Alijha. That is a weapon, made to kill people. It has no other use." Alijha said nothing, only ran his eyes over the four dead bodies, looked at the spears Luca was winding with blankets to carry Charlin's body on. Lewin refused to look at the villagers. "A spear can put food in the pots, Alijha. A sword cannot. It is forbidden by the Way."

 

...

 

Adan stepped back. "You... killed? Killed men? What of the Covenant? We harm no one. No one! There is no reason good enough to justify killing another human being. None!"

It would kind of make sense, for the Tinkers to overdo it the Leaf thing, as the other Aiel abandoned it more or less completely.

ah, ok. I just assumed that since the Tinkers are vegetarians it's likely a part of the way of the leaf.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

I'm not saying there being a secret order of Jenn is an ideal explanation.

not ideal?! it's utterly impossible. the fact that you don't know who else it can be is an entirely different matter. I don't know either but whoever she is she is certainly not Jenn. I've seen it suggested that it could be Avi's subconsciousness talking to her in her own dream. or it could be Amys. she is worried about the future of the Aiel and she wouldn't be able to tell Avi who she is because she is forbidden to talk to her openly once Avi's journey to Rhuidean started. and she would be able to find Avi's dream easily. or it could be somebody else. Avi went to sleep next to a huge rock. Rand's experience in TGH shows that sleeping next to strange rocks might be a bad idea for a channeler. if it was some kind of ter'angreal who knows what it could have done to her. the possibilities would be pretty broad.

 

It's far more likely than anything I've seen proposed so far. Amys? There is no explanation why she would use such a roundabout method. She could talk to Aviendha openly.

Aviendha's subconscious? Like I said Aviendha isn't suffering from some personality disorder. She wonuldn't be making up an entire new persona like Nakomi. That rock being a ter'angreal which just happens to cause all this is such a remote possibility that an entire tribe of Jenn seems a sure bet in comparison.

Jenn involvement is the only proposal so far which can answer how Nakomi knows all those things and why Aviendha was approached like this. They are the ones with the motivation.

[herid]

 

I'm not saying there being a secret order of Jenn is an ideal explanation.

not ideal?! it's utterly impossible. the fact that you don't know who else it can be is an entirely different matter. I don't know either but whoever she is she is certainly not Jenn. I've seen it suggested that it could be Avi's subconsciousness talking to her in her own dream. or it could be Amys. she is worried about the future of the Aiel and she wouldn't be able to tell Avi who she is because she is forbidden to talk to her openly once Avi's journey to Rhuidean started. and she would be able to find Avi's dream easily. or it could be somebody else. Avi went to sleep next to a huge rock. Rand's experience in TGH shows that sleeping next to strange rocks might be a bad idea for a channeler. if it was some kind of ter'angreal who knows what it could have done to her. the possibilities would be pretty broad.

 

It's far more likely than anything I've seen proposed so far. Amys? There is no explanation why she would use such a roundabout method. She could talk to Aviendha openly.

 

 

no, she could not. she is forbidden to do so once Avi started on her journey to Rhuidean. She did talk to her about the future of the Aiel before. she may have wanted to do so again. any of the things I mentioned are a great deal more likely than a few Jenn surviving among the Aiel in secret for thousands of years. And Avi need not suffer from any mental disorders to have her subconscious manifest in a dream. in real life the whole dreaming process takes place in subconsciousness. but as I said, it could be (and probably is) something completely different that I can't think of.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

I'm not saying there being a secret order of Jenn is an ideal explanation.

not ideal?! it's utterly impossible. the fact that you don't know who else it can be is an entirely different matter. I don't know either but whoever she is she is certainly not Jenn. I've seen it suggested that it could be Avi's subconsciousness talking to her in her own dream. or it could be Amys. she is worried about the future of the Aiel and she wouldn't be able to tell Avi who she is because she is forbidden to talk to her openly once Avi's journey to Rhuidean started. and she would be able to find Avi's dream easily. or it could be somebody else. Avi went to sleep next to a huge rock. Rand's experience in TGH shows that sleeping next to strange rocks might be a bad idea for a channeler. if it was some kind of ter'angreal who knows what it could have done to her. the possibilities would be pretty broad.

 

It's far more likely than anything I've seen proposed so far. Amys? There is no explanation why she would use such a roundabout method. She could talk to Aviendha openly.

 

 

no, she could not. she is forbidden to do so once Avi started on her journey to Rhuidean. She did talk to her about the future of the Aiel before. she may have wanted to do so again. any of the things I mentioned are a great deal more likely than a few Jenn surviving among the Aiel in secret for thousands of years. And Avi need not suffer from any mental disorders to have her subconscious manifest in a dream. in real life the whole dreaming process takes place in subconsciousness. but as I said, it could be (and probably is) something completely different that I can't think of.

 

Yeah and Amys neither could have that talk with Aviendha before she started her journey nor after she got through the glass columns she had to sneakily break the customs of the Aiel with this elaborate subterfuge. Yeah, that's just not believable.

 

Your subconscious doesn't create completely new people. Especially not ones who give cryptic answers like this whole being close and yet far from home spiel. There is no reason why Aviendha would make up Nakomi specifically. Besides in all the books we have never seen anything remotely like this happening. Why would it happen for Aviendha?

[herid]

 

I'm not saying there being a secret order of Jenn is an ideal explanation.

not ideal?! it's utterly impossible. the fact that you don't know who else it can be is an entirely different matter. I don't know either but whoever she is she is certainly not Jenn. I've seen it suggested that it could be Avi's subconsciousness talking to her in her own dream. or it could be Amys. she is worried about the future of the Aiel and she wouldn't be able to tell Avi who she is because she is forbidden to talk to her openly once Avi's journey to Rhuidean started. and she would be able to find Avi's dream easily. or it could be somebody else. Avi went to sleep next to a huge rock. Rand's experience in TGH shows that sleeping next to strange rocks might be a bad idea for a channeler. if it was some kind of ter'angreal who knows what it could have done to her. the possibilities would be pretty broad.

 

It's far more likely than anything I've seen proposed so far. Amys? There is no explanation why she would use such a roundabout method. She could talk to Aviendha openly.

 

 

no, she could not. she is forbidden to do so once Avi started on her journey to Rhuidean. She did talk to her about the future of the Aiel before. she may have wanted to do so again. any of the things I mentioned are a great deal more likely than a few Jenn surviving among the Aiel in secret for thousands of years. And Avi need not suffer from any mental disorders to have her subconscious manifest in a dream. in real life the whole dreaming process takes place in subconsciousness. but as I said, it could be (and probably is) something completely different that I can't think of.

 

Yeah and Amys neither could have that talk with Aviendha before she started her journey nor after she got through the glass columns she had to sneakily break the customs of the Aiel with this elaborate subterfuge. Yeah, that's just not believable.

Amys did talk to Avi about it before Avi left for Rhuidean. But she was very worried about the future of the Aiel. she may have wanted to talk to her again. and despite everythiong she was not completely sure Avi would return from Rhuidean. she makes that very clear when they part. also, Avi's trip to Rhuidean apparently took quite a while and there is very little time left before the LB starts and Amys knows this. they specifically talk about it with Avi in tGS. the LB may start any day for all Amys knows. she might never see Avi again. I'm not saying that this is definitely the right explanation but it's infinitely more believable than a few Jenn surviving in secret among the Aiel.

Your subconscious doesn't create completely new people.

sure it does. have you ever had a dream?! everything in a dream is a construct of your subconsciousness.

Especially not ones who give cryptic answers like this whole being close and yet far from home spiel. There is no reason why Aviendha would make up Nakomi specifically. Besides in all the books we have never seen anything remotely like this happening. Why would it happen for Aviendha?

lots of things happen in the books for the first time. we see a dreamspike for the first time in ToM. Avi changes the te'rangreal in Rhuidean for the first time. we see weird red veiled Aiel for the first time.

 

and again, I don't have the answers. but I can tell an absolutely unrealistic theory when I see one.

[Nooska]

Your subconscious doesn't create completely new people. Especially not ones who give cryptic answers like this whole being close and yet far from home spiel.

I agree that it is not Avi's subconsciousness at play in the specific, thats just too new literarily, but;

 

You know, the overactive "imagination" of people with psychiatric disorders don't make the subconscious do stuff it doesn't normally do, it just breaks down the barriers of real and not real. A paranoid schizophrenic hearing voices or seeing non-existant people doesn't have a malfunctioning imagination or subconscious, but a malfunctioning reality sense - the brain cannot distinguish and because it cannot distinguish it cannot stop the hallucinations from playing out. Normal people can imaging having a conversation (make believe, as children do all the time), but because of the functioning reality sense it can be stopped at any time and doesn't influence us strongly because we know it to be imagination.

 

So psychiatric disorders (primarily schizophrenia, when talking about hallucinations and reality sense problems) don't make the subconscious do anything it doesn't already, you just can't tell the difference between made up and real.