The Black Tower

[Sharaman]

So I think we all agree that this is definitive proof the Taim is a DF/new forsaken?

The Moridin connection is absolutely clear with the D-Spike.

Whether Taim has the Chosen Mark is a different matter.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Nah I reckon that's too obvious--if so why have Mezar come back and not Logain himself.

 

Also what's up with Myrelle and the others--camped outside of the BT for several weeks, and not even bothering to send word. Weird.

 

I agree, Logain cant have been turned. If he was, Taim would parade him round the Tower to show everyone that he had Logain under control. It would severely disrupt the rival faction.

 

Not sure whats going on with Myrelle and co. It is strange that none have sent word. Perhaps nothing has happened so they dont think there is anything to send?

[Terez]

So I think we all agree that this is definitive proof the Taim is a DF/new forsaken?

Um, no? We've known he was a Darkfriend since KOD at the absolute latest, and some think that Egwene's dream is evidence that he is not a new Forsaken. I think it makes little difference whether he's been given that title or not. He is favored over some of the Forsaken who have been punished, sure, but he still answers to Nae'blis like everyone else.

[Dunedain Fal]

So I think we all agree that this is definitive proof the Taim is a DF/new forsaken?

Um, no? We've known he was a Darkfriend since KOD at the absolute latest, and some think that Egwene's dream is evidence that he is not a new Forsaken. I think it makes little difference whether he's been given that title or not. He is favored over some of the Forsaken who have been punished, sure, but he still answers to Nae'blis like everyone else.

 

Remind me Egwene's dream again. I forgot the reference.

[lordofsoup]

he did not come back evil, he came back, and went to see Taim, because he had been raised to a full Asha man, and then he was evil.

[JakeBarnes]

So I think we all agree that this is definitive proof the Taim is a DF/new forsaken?

Um, no? We've known he was a Darkfriend since KOD at the absolute latest, and some think that Egwene's dream is evidence that he is not a new Forsaken. I think it makes little difference whether he's been given that title or not. He is favored over some of the Forsaken who have been punished, sure, but he still answers to Nae'blis like everyone else.

 

Remind me Egwene's dream again. I forgot the reference.

 

 

Egwene dreamed of the 13 Towers which represent the Forsaken. 7 crumbled, leaving 6. An 8th nearly fell, but rose up higher than the rest.

 

The 6 Towers are Graendal, Mesaana, Cyndane, Moghedien, Demandred and Moridin. Moridin is the one who fell and rose up The Highest.

[Yates_]

I think Logain is in the Waste, having gathered Aiel Males who can channel, and will come forth with a tremendous force of Highly skilled Aiel Asha'Man who will "save the day" at some point, hopefully by hauling Rand's chestnuts out of the fire when he goes to the Black Tower to clean that up. The lack of Aiel male channelers has puzzled me since LOC. We know that there are Aiel males who can channel, so why hasn't Rand searched among the People to find them, train them, and prepare for the LB?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Logain is in the Waste, having gathered Aiel Males who can channel, and will come forth with a tremendous force of Highly skilled Aiel Asha'Man who will "save the day" at some point, hopefully by hauling Rand's chestnuts out of the fire when he goes to the Black Tower to clean that up. The lack of Aiel male channelers has puzzled me since LOC. We know that there are Aiel males who can channel, so why hasn't Rand searched among the People to find them, train them, and prepare for the LB?

 

1. There are only Shaido in the waste at the moment.

 

2. All of the male Aiel channelers went to the blight.

 

3. They are the red-veils. Crazy bastards with sharpened teeth.

[Vermillion]

Actually, Nyn went to the rebel camp to get passed the bond if I remember correctly.

[Sharaman]

I think Logain is in the Waste, having gathered Aiel Males who can channel, and will come forth with a tremendous force of Highly skilled Aiel Asha'Man who will "save the day" at some point, hopefully by hauling Rand's chestnuts out of the fire when he goes to the Black Tower to clean that up. The lack of Aiel male channelers has puzzled me since LOC. We know that there are Aiel males who can channel, so why hasn't Rand searched among the People to find them, train them, and prepare for the LB?

 

1. There are only Shaido in the waste at the moment.

 

2. All of the male Aiel channelers went to the blight.

 

3. They are the red-veils. Crazy bastards with sharpened teeth.

 

1. Not true. The Aiel who did not go to battle and cross the Dragonwall are still in the Waste. Every clan left some spears behind and non-fighters have also settled Rhuidean.

2. All the sparking Aiel male channelers prior to finding the cara'carn went to the Blight to dance with GLoD. The non-sparkers remained part of the normal Aiel population. Post Cara'carn, they certainly haven't come to BT.

3. Why do they take the veils off when killing somebody? Would Aiel do that? (Or would Brandon slip up on this detail?)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Logain is in the Waste, having gathered Aiel Males who can channel, and will come forth with a tremendous force of Highly skilled Aiel Asha'Man who will "save the day" at some point, hopefully by hauling Rand's chestnuts out of the fire when he goes to the Black Tower to clean that up. The lack of Aiel male channelers has puzzled me since LOC. We know that there are Aiel males who can channel, so why hasn't Rand searched among the People to find them, train them, and prepare for the LB?

 

1. There are only Shaido in the waste at the moment.

 

2. All of the male Aiel channelers went to the blight.

 

3. They are the red-veils. Crazy bastards with sharpened teeth.

 

1. Not true. The Aiel who did not go to battle and cross the Dragonwall are still in the Waste. Every clan left some spears behind and non-fighters have also settled Rhuidean.

2. All the sparking Aiel male channelers prior to finding the cara'carn went to the Blight to dance with GLoD. The non-sparkers remained part of the normal Aiel population. Post Cara'carn, they certainly haven't come to BT.

3. Why do they take the veils off when killing somebody? Would Aiel do that? (Or would Brandon slip up on this detail?)

 

True, I was only generalizing, I meant that 3/4 of the Aiel were not in the waste.

2. Yeah, that is also true, but still, most would be with the Aiel in the Wetlands.

3. Because they are darkfriends? They have been turned by the Shadow, I dont think they care about veils at this point.

[MatthewWallace]

The guy thought they were Aiel because of the veils. Considering his state of mind at the time I would definitely not take that to mean they were. The red veils make me think of the red sails of the ships sailing away from Seandar. Maybe this part of Demandred's forces.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The guy thought they were Aiel because of the veils. Considering his state of mind at the time I would definitely not take that to mean they were. The red veils make me think of the red sails of the ships sailing away from Seandar. Maybe this part of Demandred's forces.

 

It has been confirmed that the red-veils are Male Aiel channelers.

 

 

Matt: We are told the male Aiel channelers go to the Blight to "to kill the Dark One." And it is said "None survived long enough to face madness." Is this point of view or truth.

 

Brandon: RAFO. It's not that I don't know, it's that I think in reading the text you can answer that question yourself.

 

This from the post that Terez put up here:http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/53029-tom-signing-tour-reports/page__pid__1661378#entry1661378

 

It is not stated exactly, but it is pretty much confirmed.

 

As to whether this is Demandred's forces, I dont know, it could certainly be so. HOwever, I think that it is more likely they are Moridin's. He has been gathering the armies of the Blight, and he has also been periodically spun out of the Bore, giving him a chance to train the Aiel DF's and turn them 13 x 13 style.

[Diederichos]

Where has it been confirmed?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Where has it been confirmed?

 

In above quote.

 

 

Towers of Midnight Book Tour, Midnight release, Provo, UT 2 November 2010 - Tamyrlin reporting

 

Matt: We are told the male Aiel channelers go to the Blight to "to kill the Dark One." And it is said "None survived long enough to face madness." Is this point of view or truth?

Brandon: RAFO. It's not that I don't know, it's that I think in reading the text you can answer that question yourself.

[Sharaman]

I think Logain is in the Waste, having gathered Aiel Males who can channel, and will come forth with a tremendous force of Highly skilled Aiel Asha'Man who will "save the day" at some point, hopefully by hauling Rand's chestnuts out of the fire when he goes to the Black Tower to clean that up. The lack of Aiel male channelers has puzzled me since LOC. We know that there are Aiel males who can channel, so why hasn't Rand searched among the People to find them, train them, and prepare for the LB?

 

1. There are only Shaido in the waste at the moment.

 

2. All of the male Aiel channelers went to the blight.

 

3. They are the red-veils. Crazy bastards with sharpened teeth.

 

1. Not true. The Aiel who did not go to battle and cross the Dragonwall are still in the Waste. Every clan left some spears behind and non-fighters have also settled Rhuidean.

2. All the sparking Aiel male channelers prior to finding the cara'carn went to the Blight to dance with GLoD. The non-sparkers remained part of the normal Aiel population. Post Cara'carn, they certainly haven't come to BT.

3. Why do they take the veils off when killing somebody? Would Aiel do that? (Or would Brandon slip up on this detail?)

 

True, I was only generalizing, I meant that 3/4 of the Aiel were not in the waste.

2. Yeah, that is also true, but still, most would be with the Aiel in the Wetlands.

3. Because they are darkfriends? They have been turned by the Shadow, I dont think they care about veils at this point.

 

3. I wonder Melindhra put her veil on before she tried to kill Mat. It's an instinctive action and the GLoD doesn't seem to have any specific prohibition against it. But that quote you gave below is interesting.

 

The other thing is, I think timeline for the BT arc is quite confusing but it can probably be placed.

Lots of little details

1) When Moridin gives the DSpike to Graendal he also says the other one is being put to good use. So it's in the BT already.

We know this is before she gets after Perrin and we can place Perrin's arc several ways. he is at that stage, behind Rand - the catch up is at VoG in TaR

2) When the BT sequence starts, Androl can still channel Gates and then, he can't. So it starts before the D-Spike is in place.

3) Nyn Travels in and out

4) Pevara, etc, have been there for a while

Etc.etc. Too busy to work out right now -- but I suspect it can be done and then a lot of stuff will become clear.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Logain is in the Waste, having gathered Aiel Males who can channel, and will come forth with a tremendous force of Highly skilled Aiel Asha'Man who will "save the day" at some point, hopefully by hauling Rand's chestnuts out of the fire when he goes to the Black Tower to clean that up. The lack of Aiel male channelers has puzzled me since LOC. We know that there are Aiel males who can channel, so why hasn't Rand searched among the People to find them, train them, and prepare for the LB?

 

1. There are only Shaido in the waste at the moment.

 

2. All of the male Aiel channelers went to the blight.

 

3. They are the red-veils. Crazy bastards with sharpened teeth.

 

1. Not true. The Aiel who did not go to battle and cross the Dragonwall are still in the Waste. Every clan left some spears behind and non-fighters have also settled Rhuidean.

2. All the sparking Aiel male channelers prior to finding the cara'carn went to the Blight to dance with GLoD. The non-sparkers remained part of the normal Aiel population. Post Cara'carn, they certainly haven't come to BT.

3. Why do they take the veils off when killing somebody? Would Aiel do that? (Or would Brandon slip up on this detail?)

 

True, I was only generalizing, I meant that 3/4 of the Aiel were not in the waste.

2. Yeah, that is also true, but still, most would be with the Aiel in the Wetlands.

3. Because they are darkfriends? They have been turned by the Shadow, I dont think they care about veils at this point.

 

3. I wonder Melindhra put her veil on before she tried to kill Mat. It's an instinctive action and the GLoD doesn't seem to have any specific prohibition against it. But that quote you gave below is interesting.

 

The other thing is, I think timeline for the BT arc is quite confusing but it can probably be placed.

Lots of little details

1) When Moridin gives the DSpike to Graendal he also says the other one is being put to good use. So it's in the BT already.

We know this is before she gets after Perrin and we can place Perrin's arc several ways. he is at that stage, behind Rand - the catch up is at VoG in TaR

2) When the BT sequence starts, Androl can still channel Gates and then, he can't. So it starts before the D-Spike is in place.

3) Nyn Travels in and out

4) Pevara, etc, have been there for a while

Etc.etc. Too busy to work out right now -- but I suspect it can be done and then a lot of stuff will become clear.

 

As to why Melindhra put her veil on and the red-veil's didnt, Mel. was a DF in her own right, she was still Aiel, just allied with the Shadow. The male Aiel channlers were turned 13 x 13 (they are consistant with the 13 x 13 we have seen in the BT) So technically they are no longer Aiel, just servants of the SHadow

[JenniferL]

I think Taim is Moridin. He's got the second Dreamspike and it seemed to me like he was favoring his left hand, like we know Moridin does after Rand got his hand blasted off by Semi (if you're curious as to why this is, check out the WOTFAQ http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/79). Couple that with the epilogue of KoD where Taim has adopted Moridin's colors and is repeating the Dark One's orders verbatim and the PILE of evidence that Taim is a Forsaken in disguise (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/67) and I feel like we've got something.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Taim is Moridin. He's got the second Dreamspike and it seemed to me like he was favoring his left hand, like we know Moridin does after Rand got his hand blasted off by Semi (if you're curious as to why this is, check out the WOTFAQ http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/79). Couple that with the epilogue of KoD where Taim has adopted Moridin's colors and is repeating the Dark One's orders verbatim and the PILE of evidence that Taim is a Forsaken in disguise (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/67) and I feel like we've got something.

 

I just posted the same thought on the Discuss full Book thread. I agree, I didnt like the idea before, but ToM makes me think that Taim= Moridin.

[Sid]

It would be crazy if Taim was somehow the person that Moiraine saw in Finnland, and she recognizes him... somehow? Moridin disguised as Taim for who knows why? (idle thoughts)

 

Moridin-Taim would have given Rand a seal, and in KoD he seems to not be too adamant about finding them, though he says they should be found. More like an offhand "find out where he's been and search for them" rather than his angry hand slamming display about killing Mat and Perrin, or finding who sent the trollocs into the Ways.

 

Was there something about Dreamspikes that Graendal mentioned: they could nullify gateways in an area except for a certain individual's weaves? I'm having trouble remembering for sure, but I thought it was mentioned. If not, it would make things pretty awkward for Moridin to multitask with the blight related stuff and the black tower stuff he's doing without Traveling available. Maybe True Power Gateways aren't affected.

 

 

Dang it, if RJ hadn't specifically said it was untrue, I'd be almost sure Demandred was posing as Taim. I just hope we don't find out who the guy is in a disappointing or lame way.

[AuldGoldBeard]

The red-veils are described as having "dark eyes." Either Brandon slipped up, serving the DO makes your eyes change colors, or those weren't Aiel. I assumed they were Sharamen, despite being in a location that wouldn't make any sense, or some sort of wild Blight-men.

[Sid]

Mad-men, perhaps? also in a location that makes little sense.

[Deadsy]

I love Tarna too. I think it would have been even better (worse) if it had been Pevara, since her whole family was killed by DF.

[The Dirty Landry]

Yeah, as much as I enjoyed reading the BT scenes, it was almost sad because I had a feeling we'd be seeing some characters we liked become DF's against their will.

 

Why is Taim waiting to convert Pevara? It seems a little strange that he would do them piecemeal. Can he only convert 1-2 channelers in a limited amount of time? There must be some kind of restriction for him not to just do them all at once.

[Sid]

I wonder if the 13 Fades are either destroyed in the process or weakened to the point that the process can't be repeated for some time. Tarna was the Keeper of the Chronicles, so she was likely the first of the Red embassy to be turned. The fellow that was to meet with Logain was likely turned because he was a known detractor, and became more of a priority.