Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[sdelu]

I think that the key was that Rand knelt to Tuon, thus fulfilling Ishamael's twisted prophecy and not the real Prophecy of the Dragon.

 

In the next book, Rand will be faced with a choice. Trollocs are invading and he needs the Seanchan armies, so he can accept the lesser of two evils and bow to her in order to get her onside and let her keep the damane to fight the Shadow, or he can take time away from the Trollocs to deal with her and bind her to his service and break the damane's chains and have the Seanchan fight without collared slaves.

 

From a strategic point of view, it makes sense to take the first option, since however bad the Seanchan are, they're not as bad as Trollocs. Avi's vision, however, lets him know that if he does this he's handing the world to the Seanchan and destroying the Aiel as a people. This is what will make him decide to take the latter choice and deal with the Seanchan properly and fulfill the real prophecy instead of the fake one, so that Avi's vision doesn't come about.

 

That sounds plausible. After all, Rand has toh. And a whole heck of a lot of it. Could he REALLY choose to let the Aiel die out? If he truly understands who he is and what he means, will he be able to allow this possible future? when faced with knowledge that the Aiel will be destroyed because of his action (kneeling to Tuon) or perhaps inaction (not naming them to the peace), will he see that by allowing the Aiel to be destroyed he is abandoning his toh?

 

Will he then, for the sake of the Aiel--for the sake of his toh--choose to destroy a potential ally, even if it is not the most strategic action?

 

I think that he will. Perhaps not with a storm of Power, but I do not think that he will leave the Aiel to die.

[Moon Sedai]

 

If I could pick only one thing to happen in AMOL, it'd be Tuon having an adam snapped around her neck (by anyone except Egwene - that'd be the arrogant leading the pig-headed or vice versa) and made in front of all the Seanchan Blood left to try and carry her adam across the room. 'Ooohh I'm sorry Empress, if you'd like it off, just hold this little white rod and swear to follow the Dragon Reborn and release all your damane'.

 

 

THAT would be AWESOME!

I think it would make the whole empire with lowered eyes.

 

The only downfall is that would be an incentive to kill the empress, and replace her with a new one that doesn't get the a'dam put on her and can't swear the oath.

 

unless the oath is worded

 

"I swear by the light . . . that the Seachan Empire will never again leash another woman, that all leashed from this land will be returned to their homes. Except Suffa. I'm keepin that witch for myself."

 

 

 

[Moon Sedai]

I think that the key was that Rand knelt to Tuon, thus fulfilling Ishamael's twisted prophecy and not the real Prophecy of the Dragon.

 

 

How do we know the Seanchan prophecy is fake? Is this something from TGS that I forgot or something?

[Tom Sawyer]

 

How do we know the Seanchan prophecy is fake? Is this something from TGS that I forgot or something?

 

I don't think it's ever been confirmed anywhere (unless RJ said it sometime), but that's the obvious assumption. All the prophecies in Randland have him binding the Nine Moons to his service and Tuon confirmed at one point that all the prophecies on their side of the ocean had him binding the Nine Moons to his service. The only place where they are different - and only in that one line where he bows to her instead - is in the prophecies that Luthair brought along with him when he crossed the Aryth in the first place.

 

The person who sent him across the ocean was Ishamael, so it makes sense that this glaring contradiction in the versions was done by him.

[sdelu]

 

How do we know the Seanchan prophecy is fake? Is this something from TGS that I forgot or something?

 

I don't think it's ever been confirmed anywhere (unless RJ said it sometime), but that's the obvious assumption. All the prophecies in Randland have him binding the Nine Moons to his service and Tuon confirmed at one point that all the prophecies on their side of the ocean had him binding the Nine Moons to his service. The only place where they are different - and only in that one line where he bows to her instead - is in the prophecies that Luthair brought along with him when he crossed the Aryth in the first place.

 

The person who sent him across the ocean was Ishamael, so it makes sense that this glaring contradiction in the versions was done by him.

 

Doesn't he also say something early on in ToM about being "very familiar" with the prophecies... and not just those of the dark? I thought he said something about the Seanchan prophecies, but I really don't remember all that well. Either way, I assumed this to be a hint, of sorts.

[Moon Sedai]

After looking it over, and re-reading the posts on this board, what I have come to think is that by Avi tampering with the glass columns, she has changed the purpose of the wise one/clan chief initiation rite.

Going through to learn "Oh, Gee- Wiz, we were once followers of the Way of the Leaf" is not as shocking as it was before Rand told everyone.

 

If everyone NOW goes through and sees the possible future as what COULD happen to the Aiel, then they have a chance at not letting it happen.

 

 

Or is that what happens when one goes through the columns twice?

[Goramier]

There will be lots of posts over the next year + on these scenes. They are so odd....like they were stuck in there as a precurser for something else to make sense later but make no real sense now. I am sure within a few months people will be posting "facts" as to what it all means but it is odd and those scenes do make one really wonder what was/is happening. The poster who suggested the Aiel will go back to the way of the leaf seems like a good thought. Probably the best so far IMO. But that doesn't change tons of other inconsistancies and such around it.

 

There are two versions of the prophecies and we all have assumed (though I thought at one point in the book it was confirmed) that the Seanchan side of it was corrupted by one of the forsaken. In Av's visions, Fortuana is thought of as the last good leader of Seanchan before they begin the post TG take-over of Randland. They also say that Rand does bow to the throne, yet that seems inconsistant with the other points.

 

I really seems troubling that after all this...after the reading, after TG is done, we are told that basically everyone will eventually fall to the Seanchan and the Aiel will be wiped out. It seems like a large leep for an author to take his readers. In other words, despite Avi suggesting it was what WOULD happen, perhaps it turns out only to be what COULD happen. It is so odd that it is in there like it is and as I said, I strongly suspect that something in the last book will reveal those scenes, as they are just to wide open as they stand.

 

I have never gone to far into Randland theory guessing as I suspect it gets off-track far more often then it is right and I enjoy reading the series as-is, without all the people out there putting in their own supposed facts. These Avi scenes however, are so odd and so seemingly out of place and consistancy though I will likely be following the thoughts on them.

[sdelu]

Or is that what happens when one goes through the columns twice?

 

That's what I thought at first. I mean, she didn't really DO anything to the columns, did she? She felt a presence in there, but I think that's about as far as she went. Perhaps the presence recognized her, or the talent.

 

But I do think there was a reason for the WO to not go into the columns a second time. It could be as simple as being told not to go in by the Aes Sedai and Jenn Aiel. Was this something learned in the columns? There's so much to remember I can't possibly keep track of it all.

 

It could also be that whoever went in a second time never came out. It's horrible to see the past with no way to change it, but to see a future like THAT? Maybe those strong enough to survive the revelations of the past were not strong enough to survive seeing the Aiel destroyed.

 

There's also the possibility that the WOs do, in fact, all go in twice, and just tell everyone not to go in twice, similar to how they wait for apprentices to stop following their orders.

 

On a similar thought, maybe it was akin to Aviendha's discovery that to become a WO she only had to defy those who she felt were above her. Maybe the columns were placed not only to guide the Aiel against their past, but by telling them that they must not go through twice, inevitably someone would... and if that person would be strong enough to survive both the past and the future, they would be the ones to lead the Aiel back to what the once were (or away from what they have become).

 

Really, though, I hope she just tells Rand, and he goes and blows Tuon up. That would be easiest at this point :p

[Maji]

 

How do we know the Seanchan prophecy is fake? Is this something from TGS that I forgot or something?

 

I don't think it's ever been confirmed anywhere (unless RJ said it sometime), but that's the obvious assumption. All the prophecies in Randland have him binding the Nine Moons to his service and Tuon confirmed at one point that all the prophecies on their side of the ocean had him binding the Nine Moons to his service. The only place where they are different - and only in that one line where he bows to her instead - is in the prophecies that Luthair brought along with him when he crossed the Aryth in the first place.

 

The person who sent him across the ocean was Ishamael, so it makes sense that this glaring contradiction in the versions was done by him.

 

It's mostly speculation but it has a lot of support behind it that out of the 2 cycles, the Seanchan was the one that was tampered with. It's pretty widely accepted and I'm sure there is a thread somewhere with all the supporting evidence. One I recall off the top of my head was that Ishamael stated that he whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear about besieging the White Tower and I'm sure that eventually that led to the collaring of marath'damane. It's within the realm of reason that Ishamael later changed the prophecies to suit him as well if he's already had a hand in the Seanchan pot.

[DottieGirl]

Some thoughts on this:

 

1. I don't believe this vision is true or will come to pass. I suspect some kind of FS meddling, or a "bubble of evil," or some Shadow related tampering is behind this vision. The presence of "Nakomi" right before Avi sees these things is highly suspicious to start with. I almost wonder if Nakomi could have been Moridin in disguise, but that is a subject for another thread.

 

2. If this vision is true, it is because all of the current leaders were wiped out relatively soon after TG. Note that, in the vision, Avi's daughter opined that Rhurac had respect for Tuon as an honorable leader. I know there are a ton of Seanchan haters in this thread, but I think this point is important. The world of this vision occurred because reasonable leaders like Tuon and Rhurac were killed off, leaving less reasonable rulers to take over in their stead. I think, especially with Mat's influence, that Tuon will come around on the damane issue eventually. She is a channeler too, after all. Not to mention RJ planned outrigger novels for Tuon/Mat and I seriously doubt that his plans would involve Mat willingly engaging against the Aiel. Just my opinion, of course.

 

3. I found it interesting how NONE of the characters discussed the Shadow or TG. Wasn't there a huge battle where many people died? Yet, even one generatrion after the event, Avi's daughter and Rhurac's son don't discuss left over Shadowspawn, or recall their parent's roles in key battles, or any mention of the Shadow. Seems a bit fishy to me.

 

Still, a very interesting set of events for the future. I love the Seanchan and think they're interesting (Mat/Tuon are my fave characters), but these chapters did a good job in presenting the Seanchan in a sinister light.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that every chapter in the series that has the Seanchan in them does a good job of presenting the Seanchan in a sinister light. The one Tuon chapter in the book just made me hate her more than I already did - which was a lot. The future visions that Avi sees are nothing more than the logical extension of everything we've seen about the Seanchan if they're allowed to continue as they currently are. That tells me that if this future isn't going to occur, then something fundamental needs to change about them. It makes sense that the genesis of this change would be Tuon kneeling to Rand and ending the horrific slavery that's the basis of her rule as opposed to Rand kneeling to her and letting it continue as it is when letting it continue as it is leads to the future that Avi saw.

 

Yes, there were choices that the Aiel made that led to the war with the Seanchan. Does anybody really think, however, that this war wouldn't have occurred regardless? That the Seanchan would be content with half the continent and let the Aes Sedai and Ashamen and Wise Ones run around unimpeded next door to them? That is totally at odds with everything shown about the Seanchan to date. They need to be changed and Avi's vision shows the consequences of not changing them.

[capuga]

First off, kudos to Brandon for this chapter. Easily one of the most beautiful and well written scenes (even though painful) in the entire series.

 

Secondly, I wanted to mention to those stating the Aiel started this war by tricking the Andorans. Not correct. It is clear that the Aiel are already at war with Seanchan by this point. It wasn't clear to me if this was their fault or the Seanchan's fault. The tricking of the Andorans was an attempt to get the wetlanders to join a war that was already in progress.

 

Third, my feelings are that this is the future that would have occured had Aviendha not seen it. Now that she has, it can be prevented so I didn't feel that this chapter was full of spoilers. One more good thing about this - I believe that Aviendha will likely tell Rand that kneeling to Tuon is a mistake and hoping that will be prevented. I would hate to see Rand actually kneel to Tuon.

[TMan]

Didn't RJ once say that one of the outrigger novels would be about Mat and Tuon going back across the ocean to reclaim that land? That would make Avi's future impossible I suppose.

 

I may be remembering this wrong though.

[Tom Sawyer]

Didn't RJ once say that one of the outrigger novels would be about Mat and Tuon going back across the ocean to reclaim that land? That would make Avi's future impossible I suppose.

 

I may be remembering this wrong though.

 

Well, of course the future she's seen is impossible (in the sense that the novel is never going to turn out that way). It was shown just to give Rand the information to stop it from happening. Rand's going to end up binding Tuon to him and freeing the damane, not kneel to her. This vision is just exposition along the way to that.

[TMan]

Didn't RJ once say that one of the outrigger novels would be about Mat and Tuon going back across the ocean to reclaim that land? That would make Avi's future impossible I suppose.

 

I may be remembering this wrong though.

 

Well, of course the future she's seen is impossible (in the sense that the novel is never going to turn out that way). It was shown just to give Rand the information to stop it from happening. Rand's going to end up binding Tuon to him and freeing the damane, not kneel to her. This vision is just exposition along the way to that.

 

Yes, I generally agree with what you're saying. However, others in this thread have expressed disappointment with being shown the future, and I merely wanted to point out that it is not the future.

[Plato's Cave]

I was very depressed by this chapter. Domination by a viciously warped and a disgusting, tyrannical slave society was a far worse outcome for Randland than I ever would have anticipated. Depressing, depressing. Not to mention that Rand's children grow in a 'frustrating' world of endless turmoil and conflict, I imagined TG to be battle of all battles than a new age, not a continunaiton of TG era conflicts.

 

There was also a feeling that I'd been reading extreme spoilers, as if I'd had access to RJ's private notes. No doubt that this was long intended by RJ, so I can't really complain.

[gambril]

I haven't read all the replies due to time, but I will say that this chapter was the most heartwrenching chapter in all of WOT so far for me. I was crying once I realized what it was about and what it meant. The series can't end this way, period. If it does, I will burn my books. If I wasn't in Avienda's corner fully, you better believe I am now. That's all I really wanted to say. Even though this chapter was great in a depressing way, I really just can't stand for the Aiel to end up like this. I know it's just a story and all but my respect for Avienda plummeted skyward after this chapter and I was already a big Aviendha fan.

[DottieGirl]

I think that every chapter in the series that has the Seanchan in them does a good job of presenting the Seanchan in a sinister light. The one Tuon chapter in the book just made me hate her more than I already did - which was a lot. The future visions that Avi sees are nothing more than the logical extension of everything we've seen about the Seanchan if they're allowed to continue as they currently are. That tells me that if this future isn't going to occur, then something fundamental needs to change about them. It makes sense that the genesis of this change would be Tuon kneeling to Rand and ending the horrific slavery that's the basis of her rule as opposed to Rand kneeling to her and letting it continue as it is when letting it continue as it is leads to the future that Avi saw.

 

Yes, there were choices that the Aiel made that led to the war with the Seanchan. Does anybody really think, however, that this war wouldn't have occurred regardless? That the Seanchan would be content with half the continent and let the Aes Sedai and Ashamen and Wise Ones run around unimpeded next door to them? That is totally at odds with everything shown about the Seanchan to date. They need to be changed and Avi's vision shows the consequences of not changing them.

Interesting how opinions differ. I actually despise the Aiel culture and would like to see it changed substantially from what it is. Not utterly wiped out, mind you, but altered in a fundamental way. However, I do agree the Seanchan need to be changed and part of that will be a lesson in humility for Tuon and those beneath her. I would like to see the slavery of damane and other servants abolished and I hope that Tuon, with Mat's prodding, can come around to that. I also agree that the Seanchan will be unsatisfied unless they conquer the Waste, along with everything else, barring a substantial turn around of thoughts and values from the top. Fortunately, I have hope that this can still happen, such that Avi's vision of the future needn't come to pass (if it isn't just a hoax).

[capuga]

I think that every chapter in the series that has the Seanchan in them does a good job of presenting the Seanchan in a sinister light. The one Tuon chapter in the book just made me hate her more than I already did - which was a lot. The future visions that Avi sees are nothing more than the logical extension of everything we've seen about the Seanchan if they're allowed to continue as they currently are. That tells me that if this future isn't going to occur, then something fundamental needs to change about them. It makes sense that the genesis of this change would be Tuon kneeling to Rand and ending the horrific slavery that's the basis of her rule as opposed to Rand kneeling to her and letting it continue as it is when letting it continue as it is leads to the future that Avi saw.

 

Yes, there were choices that the Aiel made that led to the war with the Seanchan. Does anybody really think, however, that this war wouldn't have occurred regardless? That the Seanchan would be content with half the continent and let the Aes Sedai and Ashamen and Wise Ones run around unimpeded next door to them? That is totally at odds with everything shown about the Seanchan to date. They need to be changed and Avi's vision shows the consequences of not changing them.

Interesting how opinions differ. I actually despise the Aiel culture and would like to see it changed substantially from what it is. Not utterly wiped out, mind you, but altered in a fundamental way. However, I do agree the Seanchan need to be changed and part of that will be a lesson in humility for Tuon and those beneath her. I would like to see the slavery of damane and other servants abolished and I hope that Tuon, with Mat's prodding, can come around to that. I also agree that the Seanchan will be unsatisfied unless they conquer the Waste, along with everything else, barring a substantial turn around of thoughts and values from the top. Fortunately, I have hope that this can still happen, such that Avi's vision of the future needn't come to pass (if it isn't just a hoax).

 

Which parts about the Aiel do you not like? I think they are a little too violent but I view them as the most honorable and stable culture we have in the books. Maybe too intolerant of the wetlanders? I don't have a lot of large complaints about them.

[tleilax]

Anyone else notice that these flash-forwards seems to give evidence for the Rand-Moridin body-switching theory? Some of Rand and Avi's kids have black hair, which the POV remarks come "from the wetlander side." While Rand is half Mantear, the Andoran royals have essentially Aiel coloring...hard to think black hair would come from that genetic background. Moridin's current body, on the other hand...also hard to imagine Rand actually dying in the Last Battle if he does end up switching bodies with Moridin, so where is he in the flash-forwards?

[Elend]

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

Dashain is right. This had nothing to do with it. The Aiel think the Seanchan will ignore the Dragon's Peace because the Dragon bowed. That doesn't mean they will ignore it. The Seanchan made no moves against anyone until the Aiel tricked the Queen of Andor into thinking they planned an invasion.

 

Anyway, the Seanchan have captive Aiel, who the Aiel offered to buy from the Seanchan to try to keep the peace, but the Seanchan would not agree. The Aiel were perfectly justified in attacking the Seanchan. This is what any people would do when some of their people are captured, try to free them. They tried peace and it did not work, so they go to war. It is amazing how fast people forget the Dragon.

 

I'm conflicted here, but leaning toward disagreeing with you. Part of it is who the captives are though. I firmly believe (but have no proof) that the captives they are talking about are only the damane that they have from Malden. If there was a peace during the Last Battle and the Aiel are just now fighting later, then I see no reason to believe that the Seanchan have captured more Aiel channelers. There would have been made mention if the Seanchan continue to capture more. There was nothing like this stated. There isn't even mention of the Seanchan fighting back against the Aiel. Only "getting too close." So we're talking about 200 women here.

 

Is it right to trick all of Randland into fighting the Seanchan in order to save 200 women who are husks by now?

 

As I see it the Aiel has every right to take back the ones who where captured, especially when we know what the standing of wise ones is in there culture. Even clans at war will not interfer with the other clans wise ones. Also how do we know that it only is the shaido wise ones beeing kept? With travelling we know they will make attacks and raids and would they really let all the non channelers go? Sure they might not be able to retake the first who leaves after 1 year and 1 day. But how long would it take for them to figure it out and do everything they can to stop the rest. Once a da'covale always a da'covale.

 

Why do you insist the Seanchan keep to Aiel ways? Why does it justify the Aiel turning all of the other nations of Randland, happily at peace with the Seanchan with no real indication of this changing at the time, against the Seanchan and breaking the Dragon's Peace? The Aiel are in the wrong, not necessarily in fighting the Seanchan, but in pulling the rest of the continent in with them.

 

Based on the fact of the Dragon's Peace and that it seems likely it will be made very soon its reasonably safe to say that the Wise Ones are Shaido. In fact, I'd suggest the White Tower existing in this vision implies that Fortuona never gets to launch her plans against it. I'd actually bet she tries it and... she finds the assembly of nations, ta'veren pulls crap in, and the Dragon's Peace gets made right there.

 

The Aiel, in my opinion, were looking for a purpose. They found one in fighting the Seanchan. They were in the wrong, though that doesn't make the Seanchan right.

 

Of course, none of this matters now that Aviendha knows it. She will be changing it- all it requires is working with her fellow Wise Ones to instill a new sense of purpose within the Aiel and seeing that they get included with the Dragon's Peace. After their toh is met they need to discard the spears and find something more constructive. Or, if they insist on keeping the spears, act as the guard of the Dragon's Peace. Not actively break it.

 

ETA: Also, I really liked the fact of how the channeling in Rand's kids worked. I hope that's how its working right now for him, though I don't think we ever get confirmation. I can see some potentially devastating applications in combat against other channelers based in the permanent Source connection. It suggests the possibility that they cannot be shielded for starters, as they are always connected to it. Even if it wouldn't work that way, I still have to love the incredible talent his kids (and hopefully him) seem to display in weaves.

 

I think you misunderstood me, what I ment was that the Aiel had every right to take back the ones who where captured from there own point of view. The fact that most or even all of them is Shaido doesn't matter, we see the wise ones saying that they will give the Seanchan 1 year and 1 day and after that they will take everyone back. So this wasn't something that happened after the last battle, this was something that they already knew they would do. How I see it is that they tried to protect the peace with offer of ransom for every aiel still in captivity but the seanchan wouldn't part with there damane so they decided to use force to get there people back. Pulling the other nations into the war the way they did was wrong ofcourse, that I do agree with.

 

Conserning the Dragons peace I do wonder how long it would have hold, especially with an empire built upon the foundation that there leader is the highest standing person in the world and that every woman who can channel must be taken and controlled. I would guess that as soon as the seanchan continent was back under control and every thing stailzed they would start the conqusts into the other countries. Just look how empires like Rome, Persia, Mughal, Ottoman and other like them expanded and conquered new land untill they either got to big to control everything and rebellions started to happen (big ones not the small kinds that always happened in this kinds of empires) or they run into someone who crushed their armies. And then the very size of the empire would make it hard to protect and controll, but this the seanchan doesn't need to care about, becuase they have travelling. What the aiel did when they started that war was probably only making everything happen 150 years earlier.

 

I agree with at least a bit of part one. The Aiel are under no requirement to the Dragon's Peace so, yes, they had every right to declare war on whoever they wished. As far as Shaido go, the prevailing view atm seems to be they aren't true Aiel, they broke the old ways, and so they deserve what they get.

 

As far as the Dragon's Peace goes its true it'd not hold forever... but I think, considering Rand's implied influence and strength, and the fact that we only see how the Aiel view the kneeling to Fortuona, that it would have lasted as much as 1000 years, similar to the Ten Nations after the Breaking. And that 1000 years has all the time in the world for the Seanchan to stop what they're doing with damane, to change their ways, and perhaps even have a balance of power begin in which they can't take the rest of the continent.

 

The Aiel blew it, discarding the centuries of peace that might have prepared the world for the coming days. I'd be a lot more willing to ignore this fact if the Aiel we saw followed ji'e'toh. But they don't.

[Guest Gabe]

just a few thoughts.

 

from the visions it was rands bowing to tuon/the crystal throne that caused later conflict because tuon was "above" the dragon, thus the successors of tuon choose to IGNORE the dragon's peace.

 

 

No, sorry, but this is wrong. The real cause of the war was the fact that Rand's children misled the Queen of Andor (among others, presumably) concerning Seanchan intentions. They circulated Seanchan contingency plans for an invasion of various non-Seanchan lands (obtained during a raid of Ebou Dar), but portrayed them as being straight up invasion plans. The Dragon's 'subordinate' position had no role to play in breaching the peace. The Aiel and their wetlander allies breached the peace first (the latter on false pretenses), then the Seanchan responded.

 

I disagree. By the time the misleading information was presented to Queen Talana the Aeil had apparently been engaged in war with the Seanchan for at least two generations. (Assuming Oncala was at least Aviendah's granddaughter if not further removed.) This leads me to believe this event was NOT the turning point which doomed the continent to war.

 

While I think the Aeil need some guidance and need to recreate their cultural identity after the Last Battle, I think one of Aviendah's roles in A Memory of Light will be to prevent Rand from supplicating himself to Fortuona.

[Elend]

Wait a moment. I just realized something.

 

Considering people think Nakomi is Verin, Aviendha likely went through the columns when Darth Rand was around, not Super Rand.

 

Is this the future if Darth Rand had fought the Last Battle?

[Sid]

Wait a moment. I just realized something.

 

Considering people think Nakomi is Verin, Aviendha likely went through the columns when Darth Rand was around, not Super Rand.

 

Is this the future if Darth Rand had fought the Last Battle?

I would say that had 'Darth Rand' fought at the end of the 3rd age, there wouldn't even have been a 4th age at all.

[Elend]

That'd always been my impression as well, but its not necessarily the case. It could also be an in-between Rand, neither evil nor good, kinda like the Seanchan themselves. Call him Seanchan Rand. Still resenting the Pattern's influence on him, but still duty-bound to see it to completion. Still hard and unbendable, but not balefire machine, etc.