Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[jsbrads]

They can make the leashes, though only a few damane can do it so they are pampered

[Annia]

I definitely agree with everyone here who have said that Aviendha's visions were not the future that WILL be, but a warning of what might be that is being shown to Aviendha because she is in the position to prevent it.

 

I recently reread the Great Hunt and the Shadow rising and in there one Aiel said that they had a prophesy that told them that "If they failed the Aes Sedai again, they would be destroyed" I think it was a different Aiel that said that the Car'a'carn would "give them back their place of old". I'm not 100% sure of the wording for that... But anyway, their place of old must be their position during the Age of Legends when they were the Servants of the Servants (the Aes Sedai) and embraced the way of the leaf. The way of the leaf was the Aiel. I don't think the Aes Sedai refers to the modern meaning of the word, the Female channeler trained in the White Tower, but the old one. Then an Aes Sedai was a channeler of either gender who served the people with his or her talents.

 

The current Aiel are an incredibly proud people, who serve no one. What they consider as the essence of being Aiel must be destroyed if they are to return to this old servitude. In fact I'm sure that they find the idea extremely unpalatable. The Aiel as they are right now will be gone after they have returned to they Way of the Leaf. I think that there are many who will not agree to give up their independence and "will be destroyed but the remnant of the remnent will survive". The "Aiel" culture will not survive.

 

What Aviendha saw in the Ter'angreal was a future were the Aiel were destroyed, but that future is far from being set in stone yet. I am hoping that they have an important role to play in the sealing of the bore. They are probably the "blood of the dragon on the rocks of Shayol Ghul that will bring the people their salvation". I'm pretty sure it wont be the warrior Aiel that will guarantee the victory since the change that they must go through has been visible from the first moment since we met them. Another point that I think prove this is the fact that when Egwene, in the Towers of Midnight, used need to find what she needed in Tel'aran'rhiod, she ended up in Tinker's camp. And Tinkers are the Lost Aiel. It will the Aiel (and/or Tinker) men singing that will be the decisive element that will end the Tarmon Gaidon. If the Aiel are not warriors, the future Aviendha saw is impossible.

 

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if Aviendha will advice Rand on his dealings with Tuon, but I don't think it is the main point here. In the viewing, Tuon wasn't even the Empress anymore when the Aiel were destroyed.

[Lady Saravhem]

This scene bothered me for a while after my reading, the horrible fate of the Aiel and seeing how the world can continue down a dark path even after the last battle is incredibly disheartening.

 

Disheartening, but realistic. Remember Nicola's foretelling from Book Six?

 

"The great battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

Even after the Dark One is defeated, there will be many battles ahead.

Lets not forget that it is human nature for us to fight each other. And the foretelling may mean nothing more than that.

[Thews Lerin]

My take on Min's viewing is that the strangeness means that Aviendha doesn't have any children, yet 'remembers' having four of them from her trip though the future.

 

-- dwn

 

That would do it, I suppose. You seem pretty intuitive about things.

 

This may have been suggested before, but if so, I missed it - sorry.

Perhaps it is that Aviendha dies in childbirth.

She's obviously not around when her kids are 17. (In the vision).

IIRC, Min thinks something like "she will have 4 kids, all born healthy, but still something strange" which says to me that there will be something strange about the birth per se, not the kids later life.

Pretty simple explanation, but sometimes those are right.

 

As far as the "always-on" connection to Saidin - it isn't specifically stated but BS makes it sound like she can release the source, just doesn't want to. ToM says that all 4 of Avi's kids could channel from childhood, but I don't know whether I would qualify that as something "off" or "strange" (whichever it was) about their birth.

[part]

Perhaps it is that Aviendha dies in childbirth.

 

I don't think so...as I recall, the girl just prior to Aviendha's daughter in the vision recalled Aviendha's face. Possible that she was somehow preserved after death but I find that unlikely.

[moratcorlm]

Possible that she was somehow preserved after death but I find that unlikely.

Maybe this means Cyndane survives the Last Battle too, and gets a job as a taxidermist.

[Sharaman]

Perhaps it is that Aviendha dies in childbirth.

 

I don't think so...as I recall, the girl just prior to Aviendha's daughter in the vision recalled Aviendha's face. Possible that she was somehow preserved after death but I find that unlikely.

Not proof of anything. Avi doesn't need to be preserved after death (how incidentally?) for her grand-daughter to see her face.

Avi's grand-daughter is a wise one. She goes through Rhuidean. That means she gets to relive the lives of her ancestrixes (sic). One of those ancestrix's= Avi. Sometime during the Rhuidean vision, her grand-daughter relives Avi looking in a mirror.

[doomsgate]

oncala was still a maiden of the spear in that viewing so she hadnt been through the rings

[Crashy]

My take on Min's viewing is that the strangeness means that Aviendha doesn't have any children, yet 'remembers' having four of them from her trip though the future.

 

-- dwn

 

Interesting theory, probably one of the better ones I have seen.

 

A lot of people seem to think that it is set in stone that the vision was about her children holding the power all the time but if that is so then Min worded it very badly, wouldn't she have said that there is something odd about them and not that?

 

To expand on what you said, I think the oddness was because Min saw a "possible" future. After her trip through the ter'angreal, Aviendha can have the very rare chance to change the future by not having children.

[babuada]

Aiel will become servant of the servants. The channellers becoming servant again will take some time. They need to get rid of their greed of power. Seanchan Adam will help with that. Only those will remain free of Adam who has overcome their greed. The Aiel on the otherhand will start by serving Damens and will become servant of servants. That will open up eyes of good Seanchan people and force them to think of Damens as fellow human beings causing the revolution from inside Seanchan society. It will take more than 3000 years possibly many cycles and eventually only good Channellers will remain and they will serve without the need for Adam and without the greed for power. Eventually these servants will be regarded with reverence and servant of servants even more so. With turning of cycles, some of the servants will eventually become arrogant again causing to repeat this whole cycle again.

[Suttree]

Aiel will become servant of the servants. The channellers becoming servant again will take some time. They need to get rid of their greed of power. Seanchan Adam will help with that. Only those will remain free of Adam who has overcome their greed. The Aiel on the otherhand will start by serving Damens and will become servant of servants. That will open up eyes of good Seanchan people and force them to think of Damens as fellow human beings causing the revolution from inside Seanchan society. It will take more than 3000 years possibly many cycles and eventually only good Channellers will remain and they will serve without the need for Adam and without the greed for power. Eventually these servants will be regarded with reverence and servant of servants even more so. With turning of cycles, some of the servants will eventually become arrogant again causing to repeat this whole cycle again.

 

@Babuada

 

Please see my post in the Seanchan thread. Greed has absolutely nothing to do with the A'dam, it doesn't work like that.

 

Reading this is giving me flashbacks to posts by Dida/Felix Pax.

[babuada]

Reading this is giving me flashbacks to posts by Dida/Felix Pax.

Could you please point me to the post? I was thinking this as my idea, I did not know it was discussed before.

[Suttree]

Reading this is giving me flashbacks to posts by Dida/Felix Pax.

Could you please point me to the post? I was thinking this as my idea, I did not know it was discussed before.

 

 

It was a joke mate, the idea is all yours. He was just known for some truly out there theories...

[babuada]

Reading this is giving me flashbacks to posts by Dida/Felix Pax.

Could you please point me to the post? I was thinking this as my idea, I did not know it was discussed before.

 

 

It was a joke mate, the idea is all yours. He was just known for some truly out there theories...

And here is the quote.

KoD (A Short Path)

"but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That

makes all the difference."

[Suttree]

Reading this is giving me flashbacks to posts by Dida/Felix Pax.

Could you please point me to the post? I was thinking this as my idea, I did not know it was discussed before.

 

 

It was a joke mate, the idea is all yours. He was just known for some truly out there theories...

And here is the quote.

KoD (A Short Path)

"but I choose not to, just as I choose not to steal or commit murder. That

makes all the difference."

 

 

And that quote links greed and the A'dam how? It has nothing to do with greed. She is saying that yes she could learn how to channel but she chooses not to. How she views women that use the one power is skewed by her cultural upbringing. We already know the Tuon is a "learner" and doesn't have the "spark". If she worked as a sul'dam with damane long enough that wouldn't matter however, she would be able to be collared. Just like EVERY other woman who can channel or is close to touching the source. Greed plays zero part in it whatsoever.

[babuada]

And that quote links greed and the A'dam how? It has nothing to do with greed. She is saying that yes she could learn how to channel but she chooses not to. How she views women that use the one power is skewed by her cultural upbringing. We already know the Tuon is a "learner" and doesn't have the "spark". If she worked as a sul'dam with damane long enough that wouldn't matter however, she would be able to be collared. Just like EVERY other woman who can channel or is close to touching the source. Greed plays zero part in it whatsoever.

What Tuon did does not agree with this view. She formed a cirle with Joline (using A'dam) and hold power against her wishes and channeled. She saw the weaves fail on Mat. She is already at the point where she can learn, more so that Bethamine and Seta. But she chose not to, that is where greed comes. She is not greedy for power thus immune to A'dam whereas Bethamine and Seta were not.

[Suttree]

And that quote links greed and the A'dam how? It has nothing to do with greed. She is saying that yes she could learn how to channel but she chooses not to. How she views women that use the one power is skewed by her cultural upbringing. We already know the Tuon is a "learner" and doesn't have the "spark". If she worked as a sul'dam with damane long enough that wouldn't matter however, she would be able to be collared. Just like EVERY other woman who can channel or is close to touching the source. Greed plays zero part in it whatsoever.

What Tuon did does not agree with this view. She formed a cirle with Joline (using A'dam) and hold power against her wishes and channeled. She saw the weaves fail on Mat. She is already at the point where she can learn, more so that Bethamine and Seta. But she chose not to, that is where greed comes. She is not greedy for power thus immune to A'dam whereas Bethamine and Seta were not.

 

Quote from RJ concerning what it takes for a sul'dam to be collared

 

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?

RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough. He said the circle helped them get to the point that's described in the book, as being on the brink of being able to channel, one foot stepped over or something [Winter's Heart Ch. 8].

 

For Tuon training damane is a hobby. Bethamin and Seta are sul'dam for the empire and have used the a'dam and worked with the source much more extensively. Please as I mentioned before just study up on it so you have a full understanding of the situation.

[babuada]

That is te whole point of my theory. The way current channellers access power by being at the brink (with greed for power) is what makes A'dam and 13x13 work.I believe there is a way to channel without wanting the power.

[Oneida]

As far as I can tell about the only good argument that this vision isn't what WILL happen is that Rand bows(and sadly why wouldn't he, ZenRand didn't mind getting getting pimp slapped 4 times in a row for the greater good). He could TV around having to bow or something. Tuan needs a humility cheek certainly. Not to mention where the prophesy to Bow comes from. But he would probably Bow. It's hinted in the visions that Avi WAS trying to change this future, or was at least alot more talkative about the future of the Aiel than she has ever been before the end of ToM. So this probably is how the warrior aiel end. The remnant that survives are the Gai'shan who refuse to take off the white and/or whatever happens with the way of the leaf/Traveling People plot. The visions also show that they don't even have gai'shan and that the word has changed in meaning for the warrior aiel. The remnant that survives( a bunch of Gai'shan no one wants to kill because they serve tea better than Morgase) turns into the highly-respected, way of the leaf following, seedsinging, servant Aiel by the next AoL. The vision makes clear that Seanchan are expanding across the wastes in a highly advanced way that Avi confuses for the Aol at first. The Seanchan probably do end up conquering. Uniting the world they have plenty of time to deal with their bad cultural aspects (slavery) by the next Aol. They even are starting to show signs of compassion in the first(Last?) vision. Yes one of them kills the wretch mercilessly but the other one pities it. Eventually they get done with the whole Damane thing on their own and the world reaches a height of One power prestige again so they can cause another bore in the perfectly sealed Do Prison. Full circle. Or as others mentioned this is how the Dark One wants it so the Light is weak the next time around. Though I don't see Damane being able to cause a new bore as they are so badly restricted.

 

K, I lied, this probably won't happen because it would be too damned easy to prevent. Avi has all the knowledge she needs. I could see this being how the Shadow wants things to happen if they lose the LB. I don't see this being a contingency plan of the Shadow if they are going to send Nagani or whatever her name was out to get Avi working on this in the first place. Unless this is what has to happen for the wheel to come full circle in the correct way and the shadow sends Nagani to get Avi to screw it up. I suppose Nagani could be Verin if Avi's timeline is behind everyone elses(how many books ago did she leave for Ruidien anyway?) but probably not since everyone elses timeline was brought even.

 

Anyway. Since they mentioned that Lower Caemlyn or however its spelled had grown so much about a dozen times I'm guessing thats where the worst of the damage is going to be. Isn't that where the Ogier groove use to be? I doubt they actually take the city.

 

One thing that bugs me is Verins letter to mat. Maybe I need to go reread when she gave him the letter and the deal she made with Mat about it but it just seems like she botched the hell out of that. Couldn't she have just asked Mat to give the letter to Elayne right away? I was kinda disappointed in the letter actually. I was thinking it would be something she wanted Mat to do . All the letter really said was warn the queen.

 

It was probably one of my favorite chapters in all of the books but I can't remember all the details of her meeting with Eagwenn since it's been a year since I read it.Can anyone refresh me? What was the reason Eagwen couldn't heal her? I know she was hopped up on forkroot but ...eh I need to read it again.

 

Anyway, sorry for my lousy name spelling. I learned from Mat. Did anyone else notice an unusual amount of typos in the book? I've read everything else written by RJ and BS and it seemed like more in one book than all the rest of both authors books combined. Sorry for long post.

[Oneida]

Doesn't Tuan wanting to rule the world count as greedy? Sorry I have no idea what Babuada is talking about.

[Oneida]

Also I want to point out that I hope the visions don't happen that way and the Seanchan get smacked around till they pull their heads out of their asses. Just following logic. Must be of the white.

[babuada]

Doesn't Tuan wanting to rule the world count as greedy? Sorry I have no idea what Babuada is talking about.

I was talking about greed for One Power. Although the AS showed their greed otherways too. Seems to be a common character trend.

[babuada]

Also I want to point out that I hope the visions don't happen that way and the Seanchan get smacked around till they pull their heads out of their asses. Just following logic. Must be of the white.

I doubt there is any more smacking around on Light side, and Seanchan would definitely be on the Light side. The fighting would be between Light and Dark. Hope as you like, nobody would weap for fate of a few AS.

[capuga]

Doesn't Tuan wanting to rule the world count as greedy? Sorry I have no idea what Babuada is talking about.

 

Neither does anyone else.

[David Selig]

It was probably one of my favorite chapters in all of the books but I can't remember all the details of her meeting with Eagwenn since it's been a year since I read it.Can anyone refresh me? What was the reason Eagwen couldn't heal her? I know she was hopped up on forkroot but ...eh I need to read it again.

Egwene has no Talent for Healing. And she couldn't channel at all at that moment anyway due to the forkroot.

 

One thing that bugs me is Verins letter to mat. Maybe I need to go reread when she gave him the letter and the deal she made with Mat about it but it just seems like she botched the hell out of that. Couldn't she have just asked Mat to give the letter to Elayne right away?

Verin couldn't reveal the secrets of the Shadow until "the hour of her death" due to the oaths she had made. That's why she made give his word to wait at least 10 days, after which Verin would've been either dead or free of those oaths.

 

The main argument for the visions not happening is the "remnant of the remnant" prophesy about the Aiel. In the visions, the Aiel were fine at first, even though Rand had already left.