Discuss Aviendha's Arc

[coq]

Timeline-wise, did Aviendha go through before or after Rand's transformation on Dragonmount?

 

If it was before, then perhaps she saw the future as it would be unless The Dragon reconciled himself with his role. Had she gone through after that, she would have seen a different future.

[Guest whyam_i_socool]

It seems like a fair amount of people were saddened by this chapter, either because we find out that the Aiel may meet a less-than-honorable end or because the Seanchan may gain dominance over all of Randland. However, was anyone else annoyed/angry with the fact these visions essentially confirmed that Rand and the light are victorious in The Last Battle? I began this chapter intrigued, but as soon as I realized these scenes were of a distant future, i felt some of the magic and urgency fade away from the book and the series as a whole. Maybe it's just me, but knowing that the good guys win (even if they die) makes everything seem a lot less urgent.

[coq]

It seems like a fair amount of people were saddened by this chapter, either because we find out that the Aiel may meet a less-than-honorable end or because the Seanchan may gain dominance over all of Randland. However, was anyone else annoyed/angry with the fact these visions essentially confirmed that Rand and the light are victorious in The Last Battle? I began this chapter intrigued, but as soon as I realized these scenes were of a distant future, i felt some of the magic and urgency fade away from the book and the series as a whole. Maybe it's just me, but knowing that the good guys win (even if they die) makes everything seem a lot less urgent.

 

Not necessarily. Didn't Min say that her viewings could be destroyed by a change to the pattern (i.e. balefiring the subject)? Perhaps the vision worked in the same way. It showed the future that would have been if there was a future from that point onwards. Had the DO been victorious, that possible future would have been destroyed in much the same way.

[Nimic]

I think the biggest thing about the arc is that I think it confirmed RJ's original intentions of pursuing a sequel.

 

Since back when Min gave the viewing, we knew that Aviendha would have quadruplets, and they'd be special. I had assumed that would happen sometime within the series, and there'd be a time-skip. Well, it doesn't look like Aviendha will have time to give birth, let alone conceive, before Tarmon Gaidon. To top it off, thanks to this arc, we know that they're incredibly powerful. What would be the point of bringing them into the story if we weren't going to see any more of them? There's also the Seanchan, I doubt those will be dealt with in the next book, but that's another story entirely.

 

I don't think Sanderson will pursue any sequel, (doubt he could,) but I firmly believe Jordan was setting himself up to continue the story.

 

Also, anyone else notice that during the one meeting with the queen, it said there was FOUR lines of the Dragon? One for Aviendha, and the other three had died off. Quite possibly a typo, the whole book was littered with them, but that's still pretty interesting. Lanfear, perhaps?

 

One final thing: I find it interesting that it never said whether Rand was still alive during the Quadruplet's time. If you read carefully, you could see Sanderson coming very close to the subject, but leaving it ambiguous. A hint?

 

Um, I don't get why you said the "FOUR lines" is a typo, when you just mentioned several times in your post about the quadruplets which are the four lines..

 

Depends on your perspective of the wording. "Four lines" from Aviendha, or "Four lines" from Rand? There's a big difference. The more I think about it, the more obvious he meant four from Aviendha, but it was poorly worded.

 

A bit poorly worded, yeah. When I first read it I thought "wait.. who is the fourth woman he's going to sleep with?".

[Sharaman]

Since RJ referenced history and legends a lot, he might just be going with the fact that both the Zulu and the Apache were eventually defeated, even though man-for-man, they were far better better fighters than the folks that beat them. The same factors operate for Aiel versus Seanchan. If the Aiel cannot adapt to new realities, they'll be exterminated over generations like the Apache, or emasculated the way the Zulu were.

It doesn't matter that the Spaniards and Anglos in America and the Afrikaners and Brits in Southern Africa were by our standards, pretty nasty specimens. Ultimately they were smarter strategists and they could bring more resources to bear. So they won.

Avi's vision (and her greater insight into Wetlander/ Seanchan cultures) gives her the chance of trying to sidestep this bitter reality.

[Rand_al_Dude]

Interesting thread. I also think that Mat with the Horn of Valere will be a crucial factor in persuading the Seanchan to abandon their 'return'. With the name of the book being the Towers of Midnight, I was almost certain before reading the book that Rand was going to raid the Towers of Midnight in the Seanchan homeworld and destroy the adam manufacturing facility and resolve the Seanchan plot. The Seanchan surely have to be at TG, it would give the light a massive advantage in terms of military power etc.

 

On a separate note, WOW on the actual Seanchan conquest in Aviendha's vision! Would love to see that smackdown in more detail. Would have loved to see the Aiel as people of the Dragon and the Ashaman as the legacy of the dragon taking on the Seanchan in more detail. I know it's not what anybody including me would want to see become of the Aiel, but that's one war that would be interesting to read about.

 

Someone hurry up and write some fanfiction on this, LOL!

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Ok.. this thing has been buggin me a lot. There was one POV in which Avi's daughter or grand daughter or someone clearer said that the Seanchan Empress made the Dragon Reborn kneel before her... Does that mean that Rand will have to kneel before Tuon??? I srsly dont like this. But with Rand becoming all goody goody its possible.. I'll be really angry if Rand kneels to the Seanchan

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Oh, I hated this vision. Not because the Aiel had been broken. That I could acept, even though it's a very harsh punishment for their inability to change.

What grated me was that it was the Seanchan who punished them. The Seanchan, who deserve a much harsher punishment themselves.

Furthermore, in punishing the Aiel, the Seanchan conquered the whole world, destroyed the White Tower and enslaved or killed basically all channelers. All the efforts and strugglefrom Rand, Perrin, Mat, Elayne,Egwene, Moiraine, Dobraine, Nynaeve Siuan, Faile, Shaiel, Morgase, have been in vain. The Seanchan would destroy all they have built in just a couple of generations. The Seanchan would be the ones who have won the war.Rand knelt to their Empress, the keep enslaving women who can channel, and all other nations have to tiptoe their way around them.

That would be a very distasteful ending to the story.

 

Of course, I don't think that was the real future. Just a future in which things go bad. Aviendah would have to work to prevent that.

Considering that Rand kneeling to the Empress is part of prophecies which have been corrupted by Moridin, I would say that it is a future in which the Shadow wins. Not at the end of the 3rd age, but in the next one. The Aiel dead, and the Seanchan enslaving or killing all channelers would make for an easy victory for the Shadow.

Although it's likely that at some point the Aiel have to disappear, and then appear again in another age.

 

I feel the same way

[Xander234]

I really loathe such future visions. I much prefer for us to be left to draw our own conclusion as to what happens after a series, movie,book or whatever ends. I find even a possible future something really annoying.

[Fryn]

Was interesting that the Seachan had plans to kil the leaders of the Two Rivers, illian, Tear, and Andor... but none of the Borderlands. And that after 17 years Avi is no longer with the Aiel. So I am thinking Rand and his chick take there leave from the world, or else Avi is one of the shortest lived channelers of all time =p

[analyticalkeys]

Ok.. this thing has been buggin me a lot. There was one POV in which Avi's daughter or grand daughter or someone clearer said that the Seanchan Empress made the Dragon Reborn kneel before her... Does that mean that Rand will have to kneel before Tuon??? I srsly dont like this. But with Rand becoming all goody goody its possible.. I'll be really angry if Rand kneels to the Seanchan

 

That's not going to happen.. the Seanchan's Prophecy that was corrupted by Ishy says that the Dragon Reborn will kneel before the Crystal Throne... it's been alluded to so much that it's obvious that something else is going to happen. The real prophecy only says that the Dragon Reborn will bind the Nine Moons to him.

[Sharaman]

Was interesting that the Seachan had plans to kil the leaders of the Two Rivers, illian, Tear, and Andor... but none of the Borderlands. And that after 17 years Avi is no longer with the Aiel. So I am thinking Rand and his chick take there leave from the world, or else Avi is one of the shortest lived channelers of all time =p

None of the other Aiel channelers / WO are around either. Nor are the chiefs. It's a council of kids.

Tuon and Mat have also died early, etc.

[Cyf]

- Rand binding Tuona to his service would suffice. the bond the Ashaman used on Aes Sedai is perfect for the purpose.

 

Considering Rand was forcibly bonded himself, and it's likened to rape, I -really- don't see Rand doing this.

[banzai]

Thinking of Min's viewing of something odd about Avi's children - what happens to the children of someone who is turned by the 13x13? does it leave a seed of evil so to speak? In Avi's future shock there definitely seems to be something evil/twisted about her offsprings actions. Certainly her reaction is one of extreme dissappointment and disapproval.

 

What if Avi is turned while pregnant? Then immediately after the bore is sealed she balefires the lot of the good guys? If they're balefired wouldn't that change all of Min's viewings of the world after TG? Maybe Avi realises what she will do and sacrifices herself. Would be pretty unlike RJ to kill her off but a major character dying would add some bittersweet reality, especially if the others don't realise the cost of her living.

[TheAngryDruid]

Apologies if this has been said before, I didn't wade through all 14 pages.

 

What if Avi's viewing only sees the fate of the Aiel who refuse the Peace? Like the Dreamwalkers who foresaw the end of their Clans if they refused the Peace of Rhuidean. Avi knows that her descendants refused the peace and were hunted to nothing, like almost all of the Aiel. But if there was a remnant that accepted the Peace, remained gai'shain, or went with the Tinkers or back to the Way, she may not have seen their fate.

 

Hence, she will now be on a mission to make sure they accept the peace/way.

[vfletcher]

Apologies if this has been said before, I didn't wade through all 14 pages.

 

What if Avi's viewing only sees the fate of the Aiel who refuse the Peace? Like the Dreamwalkers who foresaw the end of their Clans if they refused the Peace of Rhuidean. Avi knows that her descendants refused the peace and were hunted to nothing, like almost all of the Aiel. But if there was a remnant that accepted the Peace, remained gai'shain, or went with the Tinkers or back to the Way, she may not have seen their fate.

 

Hence, she will now be on a mission to make sure they accept the peace/way.

 

Other than the leashing of Channelers, what if the stability of Seanchan rule is what issues in the new Age of Legends. How does the rest of the world feel about seanchan control? Maybe everyone else loves it. All we see is the Aiel perspective.

 

Also, seems that Avi's children are what starts this Aiel oppression. A quick fix would be to not get knocked up by Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Problem is that Min already viewed those children. As long as the Pattern persists, Min's viewing WILL come true.

 

So, the only way to avoid what Aviendha saw is for the Light to lose Tarmon Gaidon so that the Pattern gets destroyed.

 

Talk about your scorched earth Pyrrhic victories. In order to save the village it is necessary to destroy the village. My Lai, anyone.

[Tom Sawyer]

Other than the leashing of Channelers, what if the stability of Seanchan rule is what issues in the new Age of Legends. How does the rest of the world feel about seanchan control? Maybe everyone else loves it. All we see is the Aiel perspective.

 

Also, seems that Avi's children are what starts this Aiel oppression. A quick fix would be to not get knocked up by Rand.

 

That's like asking "Other than the Holocaust thing, what was so bad about the Nazis?". It's the entire structure of Seanchan society that's the problem and the leashing of channelers is just an offshoot of their philosophy. Everyone loves being ruled by fascists as long as they have no issues with accepting their pre-determined place in society and not ever making any waves against the people placed about them and enjoy the concept of allowing their entire lives to be destroyed by the arbitrary whims of their social betters.

 

The Seanchan plan to oppress and destroy the Aiel along with everyone else who doesn't bow to them - this is their current goal. At best, Avi's children sped that up by a couple of years by giving them Arbitrary Reason A as opposed to their using Arbitrary Reason B a little bit later.

[banzai]

Problem is that Min already viewed those children. As long as the Pattern persists, Min's viewing WILL come true.

 

So, the only way to avoid what Aviendha saw is for the Light to lose Tarmon Gaidon so that the Pattern gets destroyed.

 

Talk about your scorched earth Pyrrhic victories. In order to save the village it is necessary to destroy the village. My Lai, anyone.

 

 

But then what if Avi is (or has to be) balefired? Then shes burnt out of the Pattern... Out of the Pattern means Min's viewing dies. I think it's worth considering.

 

Also could she balefire herself?

[Tom Sawyer]

But then what if Avi is (or has to be) balefired? Then shes burnt out of the Pattern... Out of the Pattern means Min's viewing dies. I think it's worth considering.

 

 

I don't think that's an accurate interpretation. The Finns can read the Pattern and see the future too and the effects of balefire on Mat's future was one of the things they told him about. The Pattern seems to incorporate balefire along with everything else.

[hmenick]

Does Avi's Rhuidean trip come before or after VoG in the timeline?

If it came before could this have affected what she saw in any way?

 

Admittedly i think that a future with Dark Rand in it would likely have looked worse than what she saw (possible total victory for the Dark is what i understand, had he continued down that road).

 

Sorry if this has been bought up before, haven't read the whole thread.

[Erewan]

This arc severely depressed me. I believe the author's intent was for us to feel/understand "The Bleakness."

 

On another note... from the beginning of this thread... The prophecy of the dragon about binding the daughter of the nine moons cannot come true. There isn't one anymore.

 

I wonder if the reason the Black Tower held out the longest from the Seanchan because the dreamspike is still there and they can't gateway in to attack it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Does Avi's Rhuidean trip come before or after VoG in the timeline?

If it came before could this have affected what she saw in any way?

 

Admittedly i think that a future with Dark Rand in it would likely have looked worse than what she saw (possible total victory for the Dark is what i understand, had he continued down that road).

 

Sorry if this has been bought up before, haven't read the whole thread.

 

Nobody knows for sure when Aviendha's Rhuidean episode happens. It seems possible that since it was before Veins of Gold, and before Perrin avoided Graendal's trap, and before Mat got out of Hinderstap with a whole skin ( she departs for Cold Rocks before Hinderstap ), that those things could have some effect on what she experienced.

[shortkut]

On another note... from the beginning of this thread... The prophecy of the dragon about binding the daughter of the nine moons cannot come true. There isn't one anymore.

isn't the imperial throne in the court of the nine moons? as tuon was not the nine moons yet, rather she was the daughter of the nine moons as in the heir to the throne. now that she is the empress, she is the nine moons. that is why she did not submit before but she will now.

[Xander234]

This arc severely depressed me. I believe the author's intent was for us to feel/understand "The Bleakness."

 

On another note... from the beginning of this thread... The prophecy of the dragon about binding the daughter of the nine moons cannot come true. There isn't one anymore.

 

I wonder if the reason the Black Tower held out the longest from the Seanchan because the dreamspike is still there and they can't gateway in to attack it.

 

It already came true. She is married to Mat. Mat is part of the traingle. Hence Tuon is now bonded to Rand through Mat