ALMOST??? What you mean, Moiraine?

[dscott8]

Re-reading in preparation for ToM, I've just been through the part where Rand & Co. leave the Stone and head for Rhiudean via Portal Stone. When they arrive, Rand says "I did it!" and Moiraine mutters "Almost."

 

What's up with that? Did someone get left behind that I didn't notice?

[CadeForeverfar]

If I'm correct, that's when they all go through the alternate realitys? I think that's what she was talking about.

[waffle]

Looking at it in my copy:

“You came dose,” Moiraine said coolly. Very coolly. “The angreal was not sufficient to the task. You

must not do this again. If you take chances, they must be reasoned and for a strong purpose. They must be.”

 

Maybe she means that Rand came close to burning himself out?

 

If I'm correct, that's when they all go through the alternate realitys? I think that's what she was talking about.

 

That was the trip to Toman Head. With Verin.

[CadeForeverfar]

Looking at it in my copy:

“You came dose,” Moiraine said coolly. Very coolly. “The angreal was not sufficient to the task. You

must not do this again. If you take chances, they must be reasoned and for a strong purpose. They must be.”

 

Maybe she means that Rand came close to burning himself out?

 

If I'm correct, that's when they all go through the alternate realitys? I think that's what she was talking about.

 

That was the trip to Toman Head. With Verin.

 

Oh ok, thanks for the correction :)

[didymos]

Maybe she means that Rand came close to burning himself out?

 

Or worried he'd almost gotten himself killed, the other notable consequence of overdrawing the OP. Either way, the Light would have been screwed come Tarmon Gai'don.

[Agitel]

You can't burn yourself out using an angreal, it's got a 'buffer' built in. Callandor is an exception. She's just saying that Rand almost didn't have enough power to make the trip with so many people. If he hadn't, people could have been left behind, lost, or even worse.

[didymos]

You can't burn yourself out using an angreal, it's got a 'buffer' built in. Callandor is an exception.

 

Oh, right. Duh....

 

....stupid facts.

[Shard]

I think she meant that he could have lost them in the Portal stones, you know like what happened in tGH.

[waffle]

You can't burn yourself out using an angreal, it's got a 'buffer' built in.

 

The Dragon Reborn cares not about mundane facts and rules imposed by the writer.

[WhiskyJack]

You can't burn yourself out using an angreal, it's got a 'buffer' built in. Callandor is an exception. She's just saying that Rand almost didn't have enough power to make the trip with so many people. If he hadn't, people could have been left behind, lost, or even worse.

 

 

Calandor is a Sa'angreal. It's not an exception.

[WhiskyJack]

By the way, even using Angreal I am guessing you can burn yourself.

[Coravron]

Meh. Moiraine is just nitpicking on him 'cause she didn't get her way :)

[didymos]

By the way, even using Angreal I am guessing you can burn yourself.

 

Uh, no. Not unless it's flawed. And a sa'angreal is not fundamentally different from an angreal. They both do the same thing: allow a person to channel more than they normally could. It's just that the "sa" variety do it lots better. Quoth the Glossary:

A sa'angreal is like unto, but much, much more powerful than, an angreal.

 

"like unto" = "pretty much the same"

[didymos]

Calandor is a Sa'angreal. It's not an exception.

 

Er, yes it is. It lacks the buffer normally present, so..exception!

[Agitel]

Calandor is a Sa'angreal. It's not an exception.

 

Er, yes it is. It lacks the buffer normally present, so..exception!

 

Exactly. For example, the Choedan Kal have built in buffers as well.

[WhiskyJack]

Both Choden Kal and Calandor have none. Access keys (ter-angreal) were created precisely for that reason, to protect the user from getting consumed.

 

I went through bunch of text and they all claim that Sa'angreal also has buffer and Calandor is an exception and in very next line they mention that Choden Kal uses access keys! Where is the example of a Sa'angreal with buffer? The one Eqwene used?

[capuga]

 

Uh, no. Not unless it's flawed. And a sa'angreal is not fundamentally different from an angreal. They both do the same thing: allow a person to channel more than they normally could. It's just that the "sa" variety do it lots better. Quoth the Glossary:

 

 

 

This very topic proves that you can kill/burn yourself using an angreal, right?

 

And yes, Sa'angreal is just an angreal without buffer and it can allow higher flow of one power.

Okay, I might be getting this wrong but I would like to see an example of a Sa'angreal with buffer.

 

The rod Egwene used during the Seanchan attack of the White Tower. We have no indication that using that sa'angreal presented any danger to her. From all indications in the book a sa'angreal is just a more powerful angreal and Callandor is the only one we have seen with a flaw that lacks the buffer. The CK are special because of how powerful they are, that is why they require the access key. There is nothing to suggest that all sa'angreal lack a buffer.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Uh, no. Not unless it's flawed. And a sa'angreal is not fundamentally different from an angreal. They both do the same thing: allow a person to channel more than they normally could. It's just that the "sa" variety do it lots better. Quoth the Glossary:

 

 

 

This very topic proves that you can kill/burn yourself using an angreal, right?

 

And yes, Sa'angreal is just an angreal without buffer and it can allow higher flow of one power.

Okay, I might be getting this wrong but I would like to see an example of a Sa'angreal with buffer.

 

The rod Egwene used during the Seanchan attack of the White Tower. We have no indication that using that sa'angreal presented any danger to her. From all indications in the book a sa'angreal is just a more powerful angreal and Callandor is the only one we have seen with a flaw that lacks the buffer. The CK are special because of how powerful they are, that is why they require the access key. There is nothing to suggest that all sa'angreal lack a buffer.

 

Sorry but that makes no sense. Access key for CK are working as buffer! Whats the point of having a buffer if it's not up to the task?

[capuga]

 

Uh, no. Not unless it's flawed. And a sa'angreal is not fundamentally different from an angreal. They both do the same thing: allow a person to channel more than they normally could. It's just that the "sa" variety do it lots better. Quoth the Glossary:

 

 

 

This very topic proves that you can kill/burn yourself using an angreal, right?

 

And yes, Sa'angreal is just an angreal without buffer and it can allow higher flow of one power.

Okay, I might be getting this wrong but I would like to see an example of a Sa'angreal with buffer.

 

The rod Egwene used during the Seanchan attack of the White Tower. We have no indication that using that sa'angreal presented any danger to her. From all indications in the book a sa'angreal is just a more powerful angreal and Callandor is the only one we have seen with a flaw that lacks the buffer. The CK are special because of how powerful they are, that is why they require the access key. There is nothing to suggest that all sa'angreal lack a buffer.

 

Sorry but that makes no sense. Access key for CK are working as buffer! Whats the point of having a buffer if it's not up to the task?

 

You have a good argument but it still seems to me that we have seen two exceptions to the rule - Callandor with its flaw and the CK that were so immensely powerful that no one was strong enough to handle them without special ter'angreal. If lack of a buffer in a sa'angreal is the norm, why is the lack of a buffer in Callandor considered a flaw? We still see Egwene handle a sa'angreal without any thought that there was a problem - although, and I don't want to admit this and weaken the position I believe in, she is handling it in a circle and Suian handles it in a circle in tDR when healing Mat.

[WhiskyJack]

 

Uh, no. Not unless it's flawed. And a sa'angreal is not fundamentally different from an angreal. They both do the same thing: allow a person to channel more than they normally could. It's just that the "sa" variety do it lots better. Quoth the Glossary:

 

 

 

This very topic proves that you can kill/burn yourself using an angreal, right?

 

And yes, Sa'angreal is just an angreal without buffer and it can allow higher flow of one power.

Okay, I might be getting this wrong but I would like to see an example of a Sa'angreal with buffer.

 

The rod Egwene used during the Seanchan attack of the White Tower. We have no indication that using that sa'angreal presented any danger to her. From all indications in the book a sa'angreal is just a more powerful angreal and Callandor is the only one we have seen with a flaw that lacks the buffer. The CK are special because of how powerful they are, that is why they require the access key. There is nothing to suggest that all sa'angreal lack a buffer.

 

Sorry but that makes no sense. Access key for CK are working as buffer! Whats the point of having a buffer if it's not up to the task?

 

You have a good argument but it still seems to me that we have seen two exceptions to the rule - Callandor with its flaw and the CK that were so immensely powerful that no one was strong enough to handle them without special ter'angreal. If lack of a buffer in a sa'angreal is the norm, why is the lack of a buffer in Callandor considered a flaw? We still see Egwene handle a sa'angreal without any thought that there was a problem - although, and I don't want to admit this and weaken the position I believe in, she is handling it in a circle and Suian handles it in a circle in tDR when healing Mat.

 

Because we have not seen books supporting this theory though it's all over internet. Good catch about Egwene using link when she was holding the Sa'angreal. Cadusane (or Mo) did mention that Calandor had no buffer. Is that whatled to the conclusion that other Sa'angreals did have buffer? Or she made the case against Calandor only?

 

Also, Rand did use Calandor alone so you are not just going to turn crispy if you use Sa'angreal alone. In case CK, the power scale was so high that no one would take that risk. That was my understanding. Now that taint is gone, I am sure Rand can use Calandor "safely" (there is always the risk of stepping over the threshold).

[didymos]

Here, RJ quote:

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

 

See? Buffers == Standard Feature. Flaws == Screw-ups AKA exceptions.

 

I'm pretty sure this won't work, so pre-emptively: grrr.

[WhiskyJack]

Here, RJ quote:

 

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

 

See? Buffers == Standard Feature. Flaws == Screw-ups AKA exceptions.

 

I'm pretty sure this won't work, so pre-emptively: grrr.

 

Sorry But RJ screwed up here or misunderstood the question. He has not given the example of Sa'angreal in the book that hss bffer in it. CK doesn't have buffer in it other wise RJ was drunk as hell when he came up with the idea of access keys.

 

How can missing buffer be a flaw? Unless there is a buffer in Calandor and it doesn't work? Flaw in design is not the same as an altogether missing component.

[WhiskyJack]

Could it be that buffer for CK (ter'angreal) were created because they were mobile unlike the CK or they really are access key and through them you actually can touch the CK without physically touching them? If later is the case than access keys are not needed at all if you are actually touching the CK. What do you guys think?

[capuga]

Could it be that buffer for CK (ter'angreal) were created because they were mobile unlike the CK or they really are access key and through them you actually can tough the CK without physically touching them? If later is the case than access keys are not needed at all if you are actually touching the CK. What do you guys think?

 

It was always my impression that the access keys were created specifically for their portability. Do they also provide the buffer? Possibly. I'm not sure if using the actual statues would be possible or not without burning yourself to a cinder.

[yoniy0]

Egwene wasn't Linked when she used Vora's sa'angreal, just when she first took it. After that, the novices were needed to guard her back, and she let them form their own circles.

The Choedan Kal don't require the use of the access keys for safety. It's for mobility. Nowhere in the books does it imply anything else. And Cadsuane's remark that Callandor was flawed (backed by RJ and Brandon) implies that not all sa'angreal contain that particular flaw. Else, it wouldn't have been a manufacturing accident, just a regular feature of sa'angreal.