Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Discuss The Full Book


Luckers

Recommended Posts

  • Moderator

The Black Tower only put down those that had become a danger to themselves or those around them. And the Taint being cleansed just means that they aren't going crazier, not that it's effects were reversed. Look at Rand, even after the cleansing, he was still pretty nuts up to the point where he went mountain climbing. And from Nyn's attempt to heal him in this book, it looks like the taint is still on him, it's just being suppressed. That's why he's acting saner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

No, they are not going to split AMoL. Let's stop that rumor now before everyone gets crazy. Thanks.

 

But Randridin is a goer right? :)

 

The Legion of the Dragon are close by and must number 100,000 by now? Mat and Bashere designed their Shields so they

must have had Trolloc fighting in mind?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks boss,

 

One more thing I've been wondering. Does Galad learn he is Rand's brother?

 

No, and he may never learn. Rand's exact parentage is so twisted and complicated there's only a handful of people besides Rand himself who might know. Plot wise I don't see any reason why Galad would even TALK to Rand let alone find this out.

 

Dennis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just finished the book, and am mighty pleased. Rand blowing away the shadowspawn, his re-reunion with his father, the forging of The Hammer That Is Difficult To Spell, the raid on the Tower of Ghenji.... Lots of good stuff in here.

 

On Egwene: I do find it annoying that her automatic reaction to Rand's decision to break the seals is, "What is that fool sheepherder doing?" To be fair, however, she hasn't seen him since the Waste, if memory holds, and knows nothing of his recent transformation. All she knows is what she's heard from eyes-and-ears and rumor, which is that Rand is an unpredictable, violent nutjob. I expect that early in AMoL, Rand will be able to do what he did to Cadsuane: convince her that he knows what he's doing.

 

On Morgase: None of the reunions with her children were nearly as touching as I'd hoped. Galad's came close, but none of them showed even half the depth as that scene between Rand and his father.

 

On Mat: The fight scene with the gholam made me wish I had an animation studio at my disposal. DAMN.

 

On Elaida Suffi: All I have to say is "HAW-HAW!!" Though yes, the Seanchan having Traveling is unfortunate, watching Elaida suffer was almost worth it.

 

On Perrin: It's really good to see him advancing as a character again. For a long time he was just spinning his wheels with this, "I just want to have a normal life" nonsense. Now it sounds like he's accepted who he is and is planning to move forward.

 

On Graendal: The glossary says she is "responsible" for Asmodean's death. That's not the same as "Graendal killed Asmodean." After all, while she is "responsible" for Aran'gar's death, Aran'gar was killed by Rand. Since Graendal held Slayer's leash, that's the best bet, but I want confirmation.

 

On Lan: Some subtle comedy going on there. "Okay, you can ride with me, but don't tell anyone who I am. Okay, you can tell people who I am, but you can't say anything about Malkier. Okay, you can talk about Malkier, but.... Oh, the hell with it."

 

On Aviendha: That look to the future was utterly heartbreaking. Let it not be so.

 

On Rand: Rand Sedai is pretty cool, and I found it interesting that there were no scenes from his POV until the end. This beats CoT, which only had 3 from his PoV, and probably for the same reason: to emphasize his other-ness. He has become Something Else, something that no one really understands, and by not getting into his head, that is reinforced for the reader.

 

On Loial: I was thinking before I read this that we haven't seen much of him lately. Nice to see that he does get his book written, but I wish we could see more of him and what the Ogier are up to.

 

On Gawyn: He's going to use the Rings and die. Finally. He's never been one of my favorite characters, but he has a chance at an exceptionally cool death here. Maybe it'll make up for all the moping about.

 

On Moiraine: Gods, it's good to see her again.

 

Looking forward to: The Ogier and the Last Battle; more of the Bizarro Aiel; The Battle of Caemlyn; the birth of Elayne's twins; the White Tower vs The Seanchan: Gateways of DEATH; Moiraine and Rand's reunion; everything, really.

 

I'll be impatient for Memory of Light, that goes without saying, but I am certain it's going to be epic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the repercussion of Gawyn's death on Egwene now that they are bonded,I SERIOUSLY doubt he will die.

 

Much more likely that he'll use the rings and then have the blood poisoning simply be Healed by Nynaeve or something.

 

Dennis

 

I don't know - while Nynaeve is the Walking Miracle, we've seen Egwene endure pain before. Who knows, this might be the thing that comes closest to breaking her, and what an interesting scene that would be.

 

Simply from a writing point of view, we have a character who pretty much thinks she's invincible. The next logical step. then, is to pull the rug out from under her and see what she does. After all, the bigger the obstacle a character overcomes, the more impact overcoming it has. If she can pull herself together after losing Gawyn (who would, of course, use the rings to save her life), that would be simultaneously heartbreaking and epic. I think Sanderson has the chops to pull it off, judging from what I've seen in WoT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the Red Veiled Aiel: I've wondered for years what the what actually happens with the male channelers who go to kill the Dark One but I just figured it was too long a shot for them to end up turned by a 13X13.

 

On the Legion of the Dragon: Taim was largely in charge of their recruiting (he even suggests that Rand recruit his own army in LOC), seems to me like that there is a real possiblity of the Legion being a Legion of DFs trained by Mat and Bashere on accident. 100,000 or so DFs close to Camelyn as the Trollocs invade sure seems like shit is about to get real. I've always suspected that they are DFs, I guess we'll find out soon.

 

I dunno, it just seems like the DO has too many aces in the hole, and Rand doesn't actually seem to have a plan about what to do. It seems plausible that the Light might not win.

 

On a side note though, I can't wait to see Moiraine pull off her own personal Gandalf ressurection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just finished the book...not the best book in the series but definitely in the top half of the series.

 

One question that is KILLING me. Who is Nakomi, the woman that Aviendha meets on her way to Rhuidean? The one who has a quick philosophical talk with Aviendha and then just disappears? I was totally confused with that scene.

 

 

And the crazy sharp teeth Aiel at the end. Are they the same as the "fake" Asha'man? They both seem like they fit the description from The Prophecies of the Shadow on the last page. Very neat descriptions there btw...

 

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise.

 

The eyes and the flesh part definitely made me think of Taim's cronies and the red Aiel.

 

 

Favorite scenes in no particular order...except the first

 

1. Rand's scene with Tam. The Dragon Reborn weeping. That choked me up a little.

 

2. Perrin smacking balefire in the face

 

3. Battle in the dreamworld with Mesaana / Perrin's fight with Slayer... EPIC

 

4. Hopper's death - I don't know why but I really cared for Hopper. He was like Mr Miyagi to me

 

5. Rand's "visit" to the White Tower

 

6. All the scenes with Lan...nice bit of humor

 

7. Androl! It's nice to see the POV of the loyal Ashaman.

 

8. Aviendha's visions of the future... confusing scenes. I'm assuming they are more a depiction of what MIGHT be and not what WILL be

 

9. Byar getting what he deserves

 

10. The Tower of Ghenji sequence - The battles, Matt's bargain, Jain's last stand, Thom's reunion with Moraine...lots of good stuff

 

11. BOOTS! :biggrin:

 

Disappointing Scenes

 

1. All the reunions between Morgase and her children. They all lacked any emotional punches. I wanted to feel something but I couldn't.

 

2. Perrin had a great storyline but some of his/Faile's scenes went on for a little too long.

 

3. The scenes with Thom and Moraine could've been expanded a bit. Don't get me wrong; they were great scenes but I think more could've been written of them.

 

4. Rand vs 100,000 trollocs. Yes, I agree the scene itself is awesome; Rand taking down tens of thousands of trollocs by himself. But I was disappointed with the writing and the descriptions. Maybe I got spoiled by the writing Jordan did for the battle of dumai's wells. There I could visualize, smell, and FEEL everything happening.

 

Things I am looking forward to in the final book besides the obvious ones

 

1. Lan's suicidal courageous charge

 

2. More of Androl's crew vs Taim's "men"

 

3. Olver... Interesting POV he had in this book. It didn't blow me away like others but good nonetheless.

 

4. More of Mat's blind luck (pun intended)

 

5. Moraine's reunion with Rand and co. It's not going to top Rand and Tam but hopefully it'll be better than Morgase's reunions.

 

Too much to type. And much love to whoever can answer my first question!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just finished the book...not the best book in the series but definitely in the top half of the series.

 

One question that is KILLING me. Who is Nakomi, the woman that Aviendha meets on her way to Rhuidean? The one who has a quick philosophical talk with Aviendha and then just disappears? I was totally confused with that scene.

Verin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just finished the book...not the best book in the series but definitely in the top half of the series.

 

One question that is KILLING me. Who is Nakomi, the woman that Aviendha meets on her way to Rhuidean? The one who has a quick philosophical talk with Aviendha and then just disappears? I was totally confused with that scene.

Verin.

I dunno about Nakomi's id but Avi seems to have set up camp by a portal stone. Which could explain the peculiar somewhat-but-not-quite TAR effects.

The woman in question could 1) be disguised 2) have masked her channeling ability as the Verin theory (which I have doubts about) postulates.

We don't have a timeline for this sequence. Verin may or may not be alive.

Also Verin may/ may not be able to do the perfect Aiel imitation

But Verin didn't have time to hang around looking for Avi and whatever V was doing with Egwene/ Mat, it was passing very specific actionable info.

This conversation is more like a long-term nudge.

 

There may be a clue from what Nakomi tells Avi. She is trying to get Avi into using her influence to get the Aiel to leave the Waste after TG.

Avi's own vision suggests that is one possible future for the Aiel and it ends in ultimate disaster.

Who might have a secret prophesy about Aiel? The Shadow

Who knows about / uses portal stones? The Shadow.

If the red Veiled ones are Aiel (turned male channelers from the Blight), Nakomi may be a female Aiel DF. We're running short of female FS - I can't see Cyndane not trying to kill Aviendha if they meet. But Nakomi could, I suppose, be Demandred :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just finished the book...not the best book in the series but definitely in the top half of the series.

 

One question that is KILLING me. Who is Nakomi, the woman that Aviendha meets on her way to Rhuidean? The one who has a quick philosophical talk with Aviendha and then just disappears? I was totally confused with that scene.

Verin.

 

BELA!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question given the dreamspike is stopping the remaining loyal asha'man from leaving the BT, given that all the evidence shows that Tarna and Mezar (the asha'man, who's personality has changed and caused him to go from Logain's group to Taim's inner circle) have been 13x13'ed. Is the shadows plan to turn them all before anyone deals with them, so the entire black tower could be the shadow's??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question given the dreamspike is stopping the remaining loyal asha'man from leaving the BT, given that all the evidence shows that Tarna and Mezar (the asha'man, who's personality has changed and caused him to go from Logain's group to Taim's inner circle) have been 13x13'ed. Is the shadows plan to turn them all before anyone deals with them, so the entire black tower could be the shadow's??

 

Looks that way certainly. (It may also be some form of compulsion though 13x13 seems likely.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is the shadows plan to turn them all before anyone deals with them, so the entire black tower could be the shadow's??

 

IMHO, yes. It is such an obvious plan that I have been long expecting for the Shadow to try. Also, the effects of turning being so obvious to other people explain why it hasn't been done in the series before, to more prominent characters. Very neat. The only thing that I don't quite understand is why they didn't let SAS envoys in so that they could be turned too. Maybe Taim was afraid of them being able to build big circles and resist.

 

I am a bit surprised that all of the non-BA Reds (Javindra is clearly a BA, as has been speculated previously) weren't turned straightaway - women to enable further 13x13s would be in much shorter supply than men. But of course, then Pevara would have had no chance for a supposedly coming MoA... I wonder how she is able to sleep in the same hut as unTarna, though.

 

Speaking of Nakomi and Avi's vision: IMHO, the jist of Avi's vision wasn't that the Aiel shouldn't remain in the wetlands, but that they need to find a new purpose and change. That their traditions won't hold them once they become devoid of underlying meaning that shaped them. Which Nakomi also suggested.

 

Beyond that, the vision has too many weirdnesses to be a real future, IMHO, it is more an Acceptatron-like experience, borrowing from Avi's own experiences and feelings as well as questions that plague her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just trying to work out which of Leigh's moments are which.

 

1. “I totally cannot decide whether to be pleased about this, or kind of freaked out.”

2. “Okay, that may or may not have been quite a Crowning Moment of Awesome for _____, exactly, but that is unquestionably one of the coolest things that has ever happened in this series. All is forgiven, man.”

3. “Is it possible to have a complete seal-clapping moment of YAY, and shriek in utter fannish outrage at the same time? Because I have a feeling I’m about to find out.”

4. “This is suddenly seeming veeery familiar…”

5. “Well, finally, I have only been asking for this for like fifteen years. This is awesome. This is—wait. Uh, what’s going on… what are they… what does that… oh crap.”

6. “Man, it’s like a Barry White song up in here, except hilarious.”

7. “Wow, and just when I thought it wasn’t possible to despise you more. Nice job RUINING EVERYTHING, ____. Gah.”

8. “Oh. Er. So, I totally called that wrong. Am a bit red-faced now.”

9. “Okay, so maybe – maybe – you have redeemed yourself a little bit here, ____. You are provisionally allowed off my shit list. FOR NOW.”

10.“I think this is what they mean when they use the term ‘logical extreme’. About time, really.”

11.“WHAT? That is… that is horrible. No, no, no, no. THAT HAD BETTER NOT HAPPEN, TEAM JORDAN, DO NOT MAKE ME HURT YOU. I need a cookie now. And a hug. I HATE YOU ALL. (But, uh, man. Good writing, right there. I never would have seen that coming in a million years. P.S. I STILL HATE YOU.)”

12. “Well. I was kind of thinking that was going to be a bit more… dramatic. Or at least have a lot more yelling. But, you know. Okay then.”

13. “Holy hell, _____ just had a Moment of Awesome. Of all freakin’ people! I didn’t even think that was possible.”

14. “Oh for the love of Pete, _____, will you please DIE already? What’s it going to take, a nuclear goddamn strike? Sheesh.”

15. “Wait, what the hell just happened? I am so confused. And also, what?”

16. “HAHAHA I TOTALLY KNEW IT HAHAHAHA”

 

 

2. Gawyn vs bloodknives!!!

4. The Egwene v Messana scene echoing Nyn v Moggy

5. What Mat forgot in his bargin

11. Olver's POV in the epilogue

12. Rand v Egwene take 1 in chapter 3

13. Dain Bornhald (or possibly Sumeko helping Mat with the skimming gateway)

14. The escape from Nattins barrow

15. Perrin defeats Balefire and totally school Egwene in TAR

16. The reveal of who killed Asmo

 

 

Also random point. How did I miss that Ashandarei was the means of leaving ToG of all the things we know about the snakes and foxes tell us that the NEVER give more than they have to so how did I miss it!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm...sounds like this book is good. Nice to see that some old minor plot lines and threads are finding a resolution.

 

As I've read this thread, I can't help but find it surprising how most people are thinking that the victory of the Light would be to have the Bore resealed and the Dark One imprisoned for all times, when Rand has already made his master plan clear: he means to KILL the Dark One. Plain and simple. That's why he plans to break the seals and let the Dark One run free.

 

And I'm not speculating or theorizing here. Haven't read TOM yet, so I don't know if he mentions this again or not (I'd appreciate if anyone could confirm this) but he's already made it quite clear to Moridin, when they met in Tel'aran'rhiod in TGS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question given the dreamspike is stopping the remaining loyal asha'man from leaving the BT, given that all the evidence shows that Tarna and Mezar (the asha'man, who's personality has changed and caused him to go from Logain's group to Taim's inner circle) have been 13x13'ed. Is the shadows plan to turn them all before anyone deals with them, so the entire black tower could be the shadow's??

 

Totally banging my head for not thinking/remembering 13x13. When they gave the description of Mezar, I was like "WTF? Did a gholam get inside his skin or something? Are all DF's turning into that?"

 

I didn't think about getting turned *sigh*

 

But that makes me even more confused as to who those red Aiel were... Are they just regular DF Aiel? Channelers?

 

And Nakomi, I'm not sure I buy the Verin theory but I'll admit there doesn't seem to be anyone else. That is unless it's a brand new character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick question given the dreamspike is stopping the remaining loyal asha'man from leaving the BT, given that all the evidence shows that Tarna and Mezar (the asha'man, who's personality has changed and caused him to go from Logain's group to Taim's inner circle) have been 13x13'ed. Is the shadows plan to turn them all before anyone deals with them, so the entire black tower could be the shadow's??

 

Totally banging my head for not thinking/remembering 13x13. When they gave the description of Mezar, I was like "WTF? Did a gholam get inside his skin or something? Are all DF's turning into that?"

 

I didn't think about getting turned *sigh*

 

But that makes me even more confused as to who those red Aiel were... Are they just regular DF Aiel? Channelers?

 

And Nakomi, I'm not sure I buy the Verin theory but I'll admit there doesn't seem to be anyone else. That is unless it's a brand new character.

 

I think the red Aiel are the men who can channel who set out to hunt the DO and got 13x13'ed (they seem to have something weird with their eyes same as Tarna; Mezar is the one that doesn't fit the pattern, they said it was his smile that seemed different but IMHO there is too much to suggest that he has been 13x13'ed so I'm going to say him, Tarna and the red Aiel have all been turned, what has been a threat for such a long time has now been used in many cases!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Nakomi, I'm not sure I buy the Verin theory but I'll admit there doesn't seem to be anyone else. That is unless it's a brand new character.

 

Can Verin do reversed webs, not merely inversed ones, and hide her ability to channel? Cause those two abilities would be necessary to pull off what Nakomi did. Besides I don't see why Verin would do it. There has to be a reason and I can't think of any why Verin would think so deeply about the future of the Aiel after the Last Battle.

Only an Aiel would think so deeply about the future of the Aiel in my opinion. Perhaps Nakomi is a Jenn Aiel, by that I mean a descendant of a family which never forgot their heritage. Aviendha is the key to the future of the Aiel, Nakomi might be acting on a prophecy of the Aiel we don't know about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Can Verin do reversed webs, not merely inversed ones, and hide her ability to channel? Cause those two abilities would be necessary to pull off what Nakomi did. Besides I don't see why Verin would do it. There has to be a reason and I can't think of any why Verin would think so deeply about the future of the Aiel after the Last Battle.

Only an Aiel would think so deeply about the future of the Aiel in my opinion. Perhaps Nakomi is a Jenn Aiel, by that I mean a descendant of a family which never forgot their heritage. Aviendha is the key to the future of the Aiel, Nakomi might be acting on a prophecy of the Aiel we don't know about.

 

That's what had me doubting Verin. Hiding her ability is something I wouldn't put pass Verin. She's had so many secrets that she may have picked it up somewhere. The thing is I just don't see what would motivate Verin to do something like this close to her death (if my thinking of the timeline is correct). It seems like she has much bigger concerns with Mat/Andor invasion and getting to the white tower and leaving her notes about the BA. I never got the impression she cared that much about the Aiel or that she knew that much about their culture/traditions.

 

I'm on the fence as to who it could be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Can Verin do reversed webs, not merely inversed ones, and hide her ability to channel? Cause those two abilities would be necessary to pull off what Nakomi did. Besides I don't see why Verin would do it. There has to be a reason and I can't think of any why Verin would think so deeply about the future of the Aiel after the Last Battle.

Only an Aiel would think so deeply about the future of the Aiel in my opinion. Perhaps Nakomi is a Jenn Aiel, by that I mean a descendant of a family which never forgot their heritage. Aviendha is the key to the future of the Aiel, Nakomi might be acting on a prophecy of the Aiel we don't know about.

 

That's what had me doubting Verin. Hiding her ability is something I wouldn't put pass Verin. She's had so many secrets that she may have picked it up somewhere. The thing is I just don't see what would motivate Verin to do something like this close to her death (if my thinking of the timeline is correct). It seems like she has much bigger concerns with Mat/Andor invasion and getting to the white tower and leaving her notes about the BA. I never got the impression she cared that much about the Aiel or that she knew that much about their culture/traditions.

 

I'm on the fence as to who it could be.

 

Yes, the motivation is obscure and that is probably the clue rather than the methods used.

One long shot: the Dark Prophesies may suggest destroying the Aiel as a backup plan. Or Moridin may want to do this in order to hedge his bets.

If GLoD doesn't manage to break free this time, he may want to ensure the People of the Dragon are no longer a serious factor when the next jailbreak attempt comes. After all, GLoD is immortal - or at least, He has every reason to believe he is.

In that case, Avi was being influenced by "Nakomi" to push the Aiel in a certain direction (out into the Wetlands, to take bad strategic decisions, abandon their roots etc.) where they were likely to get into a war they cannot win versus the Seanchan.

Avi's triggering the future visions from the ter'angreal probably scrambles the plan - nobody on the Shadow-side knows of her peculiar Talent.

Since Avi sees some possible and horrible outcomes, she may be able to find ways around them.

Despite her certainty, this is probably a set of possible futures and not guaranteed.

It's a little like the TGH portal sequence when a whole lot of people spend months seeing horrible alternative futures while trying to get to Falme.

Edit: Another vaguely possible for Nokami is Sorilea (if she's a DF). Interesting that she doesn't feature at all.

 

Edit: Incidentally both Dida's pet obsessions vide Valan Luca and Cyndane are busted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...