The Big Unnoticed Thing

[Luckers]

Ok, here is what Terez had to say in her review...

 

It seems that there was some slight miscommunication when Tam told me that Peter had said we were not on the right track in this thread. I'm quite sure Peter said that, and Tam wasn't being untruthful either, but either Tam's comments were misleading as to when, exactly, he had spoken to Peter, or I misinterpreted his comments. It turns out that there was apparently a gap of time between when Peter said that and when I posted that we were not on the right track at post 138. And it just so happens that someone posted in that gap with the correct answer. I won't say how large or small that gap is. But it is mentioned before post 138.

 

Now...as to the Big Impact of the 'overlooked' detail...I really, really doubt anyone will guess it. It is possible, but difficult. But you have 8 days to try.

 

So why have I put a 'Big Spoilers' tag? Because some might view it that way. For instance I cannot find a single reference to the Unseen Eyes prior to page 138 in that thread, which pretty much rules out my theory.

 

Here is the link to the Big Unnoticed Thing Theory Compilation and the thing is now its unlikely it's any of those as I was not putting up references that were in that thread--unless I missed something, which is always possible.

 

Here is my shortlist of things Peter Ahlstrom ruled out (which are now back in). It's not certain the thing would be here. I was fairly generalized in creating it.

 

Things we can probably rule out based on the Theorylander discussion

 

Certain parts of these comments were inaccurate, therefore depending on Peter’s thoughts on the importance of technicalities may still be viable.

 

• Elayne and Nynaeve’s use of Need in TAR which led to the *angreal storeroom [note: The theorylanders only discussed this in terms of E&N using Need to find a ter’angreal which fixes the weather, which is not accurate. They were using Need to find something to help Rand, and to convince the the Salidar Aes Sedai to stand with him (which led to the Bowl of the Winds and their claims that it required a man to work).]

• Farstrider in Graendal’s lair [note: In my opinion the old man is more likely Alsalam, but irrespective as with above the Graendal’s ‘old man’ may still be viable, provided he isn’t in fact Farstrider]

 

Things we can fully rule out based on the Theorylander discussion

 

( * ) means more than one mention in the thread.

( ** ) means detailed conversation occurred on this subject in the thread.

 

• **A.R. (anything related) to Birgitte, her expulsion from TAR, or Moghedian controlling her.

• A.R. to Slayer in the Two Rivers, or him entering ToG.

• *A.R. to the ter’angreal stash in Rhuidean, or those taken by Moiraine.

• A.R. to Egeanin’s appearance in the story.

• A.R. to Fel’s note, philosophy, or instructions to Rand.

• **A.R. to Shara, or reports of war there.

• **A.R. to the Tinker wagons Mat finds destroyed in LoC.

• A.R. to either of Moiraine’s notes.

• *A.R. to any actions of the Gholam.

• **A.R. to the Tower of Ghenjei, the doorway ter’angreal, the Finn’s, or prophecies or knowledge relating to either.

• A.R. to the sisters Siuan sent to recapture Taim.

• A.R. to the question of who killed Sahra Covenry.

• **A.R. to Graendal’s meeting with Inturalde, or what she may have done to him.

• A.R. to the Pit of Doom being in a different world.

• *A.R. to Rand becoming Moridin.

• **A.R. to Rand being one with the land, or the changing influence of his ta’verenism, or the effects his corrupted wounds might have through his ta’verenism.

• A.R. to Asmodean.

• A.R. to Taim gaining his freedom, Joiya's 'plan' for Black Ajah to free him and set him up as a False Rand, or dealing with Bashere.

• **A.R. to the Aiel Memory Collumns, the seed singing, or the Song, including Ogier, Tinker and Aiel implications.

• A.R. to Moiraine’s knowledge of the future.

• A.R. to Fain in books 4-6.

• **A.R. to the Ashendarei or the Medallion, or the reasons the Finns gave them to Mat.

• A.R. to Avendesora, including the correlation between Rand’s feelings under Avendesora, and his feelings in Veins of gold.

• A.R. to Min’s viewing in tSR, including that of the apple cheeked accepted [Theodrin???] behind bars

 

And here is the list of quotes I copy and pasted from the theoryland discussion that I used to create the list.

 

c

 

• Moghedian and Brigitte - Moghedien did something to Birgitte, in creating her, like a ticking time bomb. Birgitte, unknown to herself, is Moghedien's creature (or the Dark One's) and Moghedien will use her (or Moridin) will us

• Something to do with Egeanin. First mentioned in book 4.

• Perrin in the Two Rivers which means also including Luc/Slayer/Isam, Birgitte & Gaidal

• The ter'angreal stash from Rhuidean

• Tigraine's journey to the Waste.

• --Speaking of using Need though, didn't Nynaeve and Elayne use Need in T'A'R to find something to fix the weather, but it originally took them to Tar Valon, but they knew that they didn't have access so they added the 'not in Tar Valon' clause? Could that be something? iirc, that topic hasn't been largely discussed.

• Farstrider, seen in Graendal's lair? [Luckers comment: This is an assumption. The old man may have been many people—this doesn’t rule out the old man being the issue, though it does rule out Farstrider as the old man being the issue].

• Nynaeve witnessing Moghedien ripping Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod?

• Fel, telling Rand he didn't think the Dragon Reborn could make the prison whole again like the Creator made it?

• There was reported to be war in Shara much earlier in the series... perhaps we will see the results as Sharan armies march to support Rand... seems unlikely as Rand's plotline shouldn't have much time in ToM.

• Also, all the carts of ter'angreal from Rhuidean that Moiraine was taking to the tower are still somewhere presumably.

• LoC,Ch22 - Near the River Erinin, Chel Vanin and Mat find a burned Tinker camp with the people slaughtered. There is a message on a wagon, "Tell the Dragon Reborn." This is the one mystery I can think of that doesn't get discussed much and what discussion there is devolves into "there's just not enough information."

• Moiraine's letter to Thom, or something she wrote to Rand

• Tinkers. Lots to think about there. The Gholam was involved in the slaughter?

• Perrin chased Slayer to the Tower, Birgitte was there and talked with Perrin...so, we've got Perrin meeting up with Galad who recognizes Morgase. Perrin takes Morgaze back to Caemlyn and meets up with Mat. Also while there they meet Elayne and Birgitte. Perrin & Mat both know her Birgitte and it might well come up a few things about the Tower. It doesn't seem quite right, but could this manage to get Birgitte included in the trip to rescue Moiraine? And while there could Birgitte make a few wishes or ask some questions, especially re: Gaidal?

• Perrin meets Tinkers again in Two Rivers

Tinker caravan gets butchered with no explanation.

• [Luckers Paraphrasing] Something to do with Demandred’s talk with the Dark One in the Prologue of LoC.

• Perrin meets Tinkers again in Two Rivers.

• Tinker caravan gets butchered with no explanation.

• The sisters Siuan sent to re-capture Taim. Where the hell are they?

• The rest of the Black Ajah that originally left the Tower? (Berylla Naron, Jeaine Caide, Rianna Andomeran are still missing.)

• Who killed Sahra Covenry?

• LoC p. 183, paperback. Graendal meeting with Ituralde in Arad Doman. You know she wouldn't miss the chance to do something to him.

• This could be completly off base but when Mat & Rand used the twisted doorway in Tear to enter the lands of the Finns Moiraine specifically said that the presence of a Ta'veren was not a good idea and two Ta'veren were in serious danger of breaking the connection to the finn land. This was in Book 4.

• Now if I'm not mistaken the pit of doom is somewhat removed from the real world, different sky etc. One might even say that the tunnel down to the pit of doom has the same function as the ter'angreal doorway. If you could get the three ta'veren there at the same time like say "three becomes one" might that not have some serious effect on the "tunnel" and remove the Do's ability to affect the world.

• Something I saw in someone's signature here on TL, about the 'finn prophecy to Rand "to live you must die".. The 'finn speak the old tongue, which isn't exactly Rand's mothertongue. I like this idea because I noticed the death/Moridin thing on the Horn of Valere and was shot down for it, but what if Rand mistranslated their profecy a little, obviously not knowing about Moridin at the time?

• Continued: "to live you must become Moridin"? Interesting. Certainly a different way of looking at it.

• It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing. He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer. He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates. The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear. He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state. Just something I've been kicking around for a while

• Possibly! : TITLE: Great Hunt CHAPTER: 50 – After: And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time. -from Choral, Drianaan to Calaanon, The Cycle of the Dragon, Author unknown, the Fourth Age

• Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom.

• First doorway ter'angreal introduced in Tear in book four. From then on we come across another doorway and Rhuidean rings and ancestor thing that Aviendha will be using in ToM.

• Jasin Natael is also introduced in book four.

• Finally, is there anything that hasn't been beaten to death about these two? (Davram and Mazrim): Joiya tells Egwene that the Black Ajah plan to free Mazrim Taim and set him up as a false dragon in book four (they go to Tanchico instead), Mazrim Taim escapes from the Aes Sedai in book four, we find out Bashere goes AWOL in book five, Bashere leads a taunting Mazrim Taim to Rand in book five, Mazrim Taim sets up Black Tower in book six, etc. Maybe there's something there, maybe not!

• Moghedien was told by either Moridin or Shaidar Haran that she did some small good thing by mistake which saved her bacon. Presumably that was sometime in books 4-6 and I had a theory that she was responsible for Gaidal's disappearance prior to her ripping Birgitte out of TAR. But I like the Tinker thing too. Maybe we can do some kind of timeline to figure out who could have killed the Tinkers and start from there. At least we know shadowspawn weren't gated there.

• Another minor detail that would fit this interpretation is the fact that Seed Singing doesn't require channers. That would tie into the return of tinkers to the books after a lapse of a book or two of no mention of the tinkers other than Aram. We learned that seed singing in books 4-6 from Charn's(?) POV in the glass columns ter'angreal, but I'd have to look it uo to give a book/chapter reference.

• There have been a few comments that if things don't start to grow no one will be left alive for the Last Battle. A rediscovery of Seed Singing combined with Rand's hopefully brigher attidude would certainly be useful for the forces of the light.

• So, Fisher/Rand/Dragon and the Land/Tinker/Song idea, a very good possibility. We haven't been focused on the combination of ideas...and Rand's direct connection was highlighted in this book, alluding to what's possible for ToM as it pertains to Rand.

• another possibility that a friend suggested is that Taim is controlled by Demandred via a broken mindtrap

• Thinking about Thom and Moiraine...is it possible that the small thing is when Moiraine told Thom that she would see him again at some point in the future? Although this won't really be that surprising when it happens... I'm guessing it's something to do with Moiraine, and what she knows that means Rand will fail without her. Something from her questions to the Aelfinn? She has a few POVs in Books 4 and 5 that I should reread. Although she claims in her note to Rand that she knows nothing about what happens after "except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you"...so I doubt her answers from the 'Finn can have to do with the future, as that "one small thing" is probably Thom's attempted rescue.

• --Of the things mentioned here, I'm most inclined to believe the "need" thing.. what's in the Tower that they couldn't get?

• Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that. As an example, it is a big deal at first but then keeps harmlessly popping up long after it seems important. I don't know that it's that one but I like it as a model.

• --Probably another bowl. There were tons of them in the Age of Legends - small regions were each controlled by one of them. If not, another ter'angreal that could have done something similar. They could always get Aviendha to visit and find out...

• I remember RJ being pressed about his favorite chapter before, and he gave the standard answer of "The chapter I'm working on." But then he was a bit more revealing and said that the chapters he thought he did the best were the Rhuidean columns. Those of course have a lot of material, and do touch on the song. Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei? Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

• As to Fel's comment about the seals - that came out in this book quite sharply, so it's hardly a hidden detail. The reason Rand asked Fel about it in the first place was that Lews Therin appeared to take over his body and try to break the seal that Taim had given him. So Rand asked Fel if there might be a reason why someone would break the seals. Fel seemed to think the idea was ridiculous and even a bit horrifying. But then he left the note about 'clearing the rubble - belief and order give strength'. The 'order' part might refer to something to do with the Seanchan, or just establishing order in general. The Aiel do it. Egwene has done it in the Tower. Elayne has done it in Caemlyn, etc. Belief obviously has to do with people believing that it is important to fight, like the Borderlanders in the prologue (and I think it also will come into play when they have to keep fighting after Rand dies).

• If you want something interesting from Fel, it might be that he didn't seem to believe the Dragon Reborn could actually make the prison whole like the Creator made it.

• If you want something from Fain....that's a good one for him to be confused about whether the info was introduced in 4, 5, or 6, because Fain was prominent in those books. The Two Rivers is a good mental landmark, and he might have been thinking, 'Well, I know it wasn't before the Two Rivers (book 4), and I know it wasn't after Lord of Chaos because that's the last time we see Fain before the incident in Cairhien where he knifes Rand (book 7), and then the incident in Far Madding (book 9).' Maybe Fain's special talents? Torturing Fades? Being able to see Darkfriends? Being able to make people do weird things? Some people thought when Crossroads came out that maybe Fain had caused the problems in So Habor.

• the Aelfinn doorway experience [Luckers insert: with Mat] - why the three extra answers? We know they were trying to get him (and Rand) out of there before the place came down on their heads or whatever, but I'm just saying.

• The ashandarei was actually the weapon I had in mind when I suggested that the detail might be something like a weapon that someone carries around all the time. I just assumed that the gift of the ashandarei was so strange that it must have been discussed to death already. Terez mentioned a theory that suggested that the ashandarei was part of the leavetaking agreement but I got the feeling that the only reason Mat was allowed to leave at all was because he used one of his wishes to be back in Rhuidean. Otherwise he might have become one of the human skins the Foxes wear. Perhaps they gave the spear to him because he is ta'veren? Is the metal it is made out of important?

• [Luckers insert: This was a reply to the above] The ravens on it might be.

• When I heard the reference to Mistborn, my first thought was that it would have something to do with Mat's medallion, as the two objects in question are similar from a literary standpoint. Although the ashandarei does seem more likely.....

• Somewhere in the Yukko version of these forums is an old exBoard thread about "Suitable Weapons" where I suggested that the Ashendarei was a roundabout wedding gift to Tuon because it resembles a Naginata which was considered to be a "suitable weapon" for women to defend the home estate while the warriors were out doing "warriorry things."

• Thus far the ashandarei has been a kinda cool, pointy thing with a snarky inscription on it. The memories and the medallion have already played major parts in the overall storyline. Has the ashandarei done anything like that so far? It interested Tuon but it was his ring with the ravens in flight that tipped her off about him being her future husband, not the ashandarei. The ashandarei seems to be the "Chekov's gun" of the Eelfin experience that still needs to be used.

• What if the ashandarei is an angreal, sa'angreal or ter'angreal? That would be ironic. What if it were the Blade of Light?

• Thom, Mat and someone else must enter the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue Moiraine. At some point, I believe it was revealed that the Finns were based within and/or accessible from the Tower. We were also given the indication from the Rings that they don't like music or fire. Similarly, with the Snakes and Foxes game, we discover that the only way to beat the game is to cheat. Do we have any hints as to how to cheat the Finns?

• Taim's taunting of Bashere when they meet: Compulsion. He used Compulsion, or something very much like it on two of Bashere's officers (and I believe their wives) when they first met. If Taim's been sitting in the Black Tower using Compulsion on everyone for the past several months what could that mean?

• Ituralde is a particularly combustible ally for Rand heading into Book 13. There's this Graendal factor you just highlighted ... and I agree, I don't think she'd miss the chance to tamper with him. Plus Rand didn't keep up his end of the deal in Arad Doman (though he could theoretically correct that post-tGS).

• [Taim] does know compulsion. (LoC, 93) Unless he used the Verin method and talked to lots of male wilders with daddy issues, he probably learned it directly from someone. Perhaps the same source he learned his other old-knowledge weaves. Maybe whoever helped him escape from his Aes Sedai guard?

• [Luckers Paraphrase-ment] Rand’s new attitude seems to be based on love and peace, but notice the correlation between Rand’s thoughts about that in Vein of Gold, and his feelings when he is under Avendesora. So I figure, maybe a small little place we were told about way back when might be able to help him out:

• [Luckers insert: On Taim’s use of compulsion] not compulsion then, but something similar, something mind breaking. All this time with him doing stuff like this is a minor detail, the implication of which has largely been ignored.

• What about Avendesora? I could see the tree being something we glossed over. Oh wow, the Tree of Life, lets move on. Anyway, we know Avi is heading there, all signs point to a song being found and sung and I think Avendesora could play a big part in the fight against the blight. I can see it now, lines of weaponless Aiel, Tinkers and Ogier singing saplings to grow and fight the corruption of the blight.

• What about Min's viewings in the first chapter of TSR? Not all of those viewings dealt with the WT split and subsequent fighting. Sheriam's viewing of her face battered and bruised didn't come to fruition until much later in the series. I've always wondered about the "apple-cheeked Accepted" that Min views right before Sheriam. It's most likely that she's Theodrin, from the description we get of her when she initially tries to help Nyn break her block:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 1

Another Accepted came to replace one already there, and to Min’s eyes bars floated in front of her apple-cheeked face, like a cage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoC, Chapter 8

Of course, the apple-cheeked Domani woman was not Aes Sedai. Back in the Tower, Theodrin would have been raised to the shawl already, but here she had been raised to something more than Accepted, less than a full sister.

• [Continued] Why are there bars in front of her face? We know that currently, as of TGS, she's missing along with the other AS from the Rebel camp on the BT mission. What if she's being held in some sort of prison by Taim and/or other Asha'man? Not sure what significance this would play, but it could point to exposing Taim and his cohorts, or it could be indicative that the A'M have some way to overpower a group of women channelers, because if Theodrin retained her ability to channel, why would she be imprisoned?

• I wonder if Aviendha will be the one to bring back singing after seeing/learning it after her trip through the glass columns

• Speaking of the corruption of the lands after Rand's first wound, were his followers also corrupted? It was at the same time that Masema became fanatical, and that may have only grown worse over time, spreading through the Dragonsworn.

• Also, a small detail about the Tinkers may be the fact that they were on the way to see Rand in Cairhien when they were killed, since Mat was going the opposite direction south to Tear. And obviously, the message was such a small detail to Mat since it slipped his mind when Rand showed up to send him to Salidar.

• Mat had it correct on the tinker thing, IMO. I think it was simply a tragic case of "death before important detail written down". There have been a few good cases of someone dieing before giving the final bit of info. (Harid Fel among them). Maybe we will find out what it was, but it won't be from where we expect.

• Tinkers' song is a pretty good detail, but hardly hidden. It is mentioned in every book with a tinker in it, pretty much.

[Terez]

I shall confirm that it is on that list of previously-ruled-out things. And that is all I shall say on it. It was only fair to clear up the misconception, but I think some people are nervous about people figuring it out. I will NOT tell you if you're close or way off the mark, so you will still be unsure on release day unless someone comes along to spoil it (hopefully NOT on this thread - I assume Luckers can prevent that).

[Luckers]

The shortlist you mean?

[bloodyflamingthisandthat]

I know it's a long shot, but I'm calling the unnoticed thing as the Tinker wagon because it's bugged me for five years when I started thinking about it during a reread that there must have been a reason for that. Something to do with the Dragon singing to the land, like maybe those Tinkers found the Song or the Way to the Song. Which I still think will be integral to the Light's victory at TG. After all "Let the Prince of the Dawn SING to the land again..." I know that all three taver'en are holding back the DO's touch, but I think that a full scale Singing is needed, which is why I also think that the clean pool of Saidin was left with the Green Man to be guarded. Tis a long shot I know, but it's my theory. I'm new to actively participating in the boards but I've been in Luckers' camp as far as his theories go for years, but I'm striking out on my own with this one.

[Terez]

The shortlist you mean?

They are the same list, are they not? Either way, it is on both of them.

[Terez]

Also, I'm not sure why Luckers never feels the need to link the actual thread...but here it is:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2514

 

The BUT is mentioned before post #138.

[Luckers]

They are the same list, are they not? Either way, it is on both of them.

 

Sort of. I'm cautious where I've shortened something. :D

 

 

I'm now thinking that the freedom of Taim could be it. I have a theory that the Aes Sedai who held him were Black Ajah (except for two) and simply freed him, and that those sisters are now with the Borderlanders--could be the big impact? The small thing missed in books 4 - 6 is that Moiraine's messages to Siuan went missing, and Joiya's talk about the whole thing. Of course the problem is the oddity with those Aes Sedai was first referenced in book two--they arrive in Saldaea six months before Taim is taken, and even then its a combination of the Smack Down Vision and Cadsuane.

 

I suppose Brandon could have missed that. It's a subtle element.

 

You can read the full theory here.

 

Edit: Actually, I just saw that Terez has read my theory, so if it is Taim (and the Aes Sedai I suggest freed him), it means they aren't the borderlander Aes Sedai (Terez said that she doubts people will pick the Big Impact). Possibly the Silver Swan Aes Sedai? Or something unrelated entirely.

[Terez]

Also, there is some more important info about this in my review:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4270

 

I think that looking at the quotes list for the BUT is more helpful, btw.

[dfchang]

I think we need to remember the general criteria here:

 

1. Brandon stated that it is a relatively SMALL detail that he believes has not been extensively discussed by the Wheel of Time fandom. MAYBE it was brought up but as there didn't appear to be anything too much to be added to it, the topic must have died out rather quickly.

 

2. Terez states that it is almost impossible for anyone to guess the HUGE IMPACT that will be had.

 

Now . . . I have been lurking on the Wheel of Time forums and fan sites for a LONG time. From rec.arts.sf.written all the way through wotmania and dragonmount and theoryland.

 

Done A LOT OF READING over the years.

 

My memory isn't perfect but it is pretty good and I could swear that on that list, almost ALL the things Luckers listed had been discussed quite a bit over the years on multiple forums.

 

The ONE thing that has always gotten my attention from the FIRST time I read it was the Tinkers in Lord of Chaos that Mat found massacred and the words in blood that said: "Tell the Dragon Reborn." When I first read it, I was tremendously intrigued. I even asked about it. But no one really talked about it or speculated on it and in all my years of reading the various sites and even the official FAQs, I've never seen it mentioned or discussed with any sort of depth.

 

Also, in Eye of the World, I believe the Tinkers were the ones who passed on to Perrin that the Dark One meant to destroy Time itself and slay the Great Serpent.

 

I don't think it is too far of a stretch to suggest that the Tinkers . . . so often marginalized and belittled as the wandering gypsy types who can be safely dismissed and ignored because of their "misguided" dedication to the Way of the Leaf might play a crucial and massive role in the Last Battle.

 

Perhaps what the Tinkers were trying to "tell the Dragon Reborn" is the momentous thing that will take front and center in Towers of Midnight.

 

Of ALL the items on the list, it is the only one that immediately jumped out at me and frankly, when Brandon first gave his hint, it was the FIRST thing I thought of because I distincly had the impression that for something so mysterious it had generated a shockingly small amount of speculation over the years.

 

So, basically I am 100% percent with you bloodyflamingthisandthat that it is the dead Tinkers in Lord of Chaos that is the answer.

 

Dennis

[Cyf]

Well, remember. Violence in the Wheel of Time is an actual force or such. Hurin and other sniffers can smell it. *If* it is the Tinkers, perhaps those who have never done real violence are the ones that sing the song.

 

Anyone notice, by the way, that only men have the Voice? In Rand's thing in Rhuidean, he mentions explicitly that women watched while the men sang with the Nym. Just an odd thing, but still.

 

Anyway. I could see some facet of the Tinkers being important. There's ... some support. I was kind of hoping it had to do with Aviendha's necklace (am I misrecalling, did they ever say where that came from?) but I don't see it in the first list, so as Terez says the BUT is on both lists, it can't be.

[Terez]

Egwene gave it to her.

[dfchang]

You see, while technically that sort of thing can count, for some reason I would think it is a little cheap. ANYONE can make some stupid little object that is given as a gift or whatnot all of a sudden become the world-saving or destroying device but that is not being "fair" to the readers I think. In fact, isn't that almost the definition of a deus ex machina? I would be pretty annoyed if it was something silly like that.

 

But overall, come on. Fain? Fel's theories? Taim? Some of the things on that list have been discussed to DEATH over the years. I mean, the theories that have been spawned about them have been so crazy, they've come all the way around and become reasonable again. Especially with Wheel of Time fandom over close to 20 years, anything that is worth discussing and dissecting has generally been done multiple times from multiple angles.

 

Which again goes to underline why it is so . . . odd that there has been no similarly detailed list of possibilities dealing with those Tinkers . . .

 

Dennis

[Musenge_09]

Need. Book. Now.

[aginor37]

I can't say for that I 100% think it is about the Song, but I do believe it pretty much has to be Tinker related. I mean, not only is there the scene in LoC, but also the scene in Rhuidean in TSR. I am not 100% on the dates, but we learn that other than the Ogier, the Aiel, and the White Tower, there is exactly one culture that has existed from the Breaking, give or take a couple centuries, uninterrupted, and that's the Tinkers. And that I recall, even going back to LoC's release or so, it's never really been discussed why nobody as thought to ask the Tinkers if they have any knowledge to share about pretty much anything. Always struck me as odd.

[Diederichos]

In the part in the Columns when the proto-Tinkers are breaking away, I know it says they empty the wagons of everything but food and water, and I am inclined to believe that because to introduce a fantastic object that fixes everything is too fantastic at this point of the story. But I still have to think that the Tinkers' presence in that part of the columns had to be more than throwaway exposition, particularly since the slaughtered caravan was too random to be another throwaway detail.

 

PArticularly the quote(I'm getting from a typo-riddled PDF so bear with me) is:

 

My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

 

If we presume that the Tinkers have found safety in the SEanchan realm and more precisely in EBou Dar, can we say that the song is not far in coming? Was everything taken from the ter'angreal stash, maybe some artifact was left behind or something that randomly contains something similar to it, wasn't there a sort of music box in the ter'angreals that Elayne found?

[TonyMacaroniGlenholmes]

'Tell the dragon reborn'. it's that.

[DocBean]

I'm going to go with Birgitte's resurrection.

That's the ring I threw my hat in a long time ago.

 

I don't know how that fits with the "It's been going on for a while."

Or the fact that they said we might not be able to see the final impact - since it's pretty obvious that the impact would be resurrecting Rand, but whatever.

I'm sticking to it anyway.

[Darkholme]

In the part in the Columns when the proto-Tinkers are breaking away, I know it says they empty the wagons of everything but food and water, and I am inclined to believe that because to introduce a fantastic object that fixes everything is too fantastic at this point of the story. But I still have to think that the Tinkers' presence in that part of the columns had to be more than throwaway exposition, particularly since the slaughtered caravan was too random to be another throwaway detail.

 

PArticularly the quote(I'm getting from a typo-riddled PDF so bear with me) is:

 

My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

 

If we presume that the Tinkers have found safety in the SEanchan realm and more precisely in EBou Dar, can we say that the song is not far in coming? Was everything taken from the ter'angreal stash, maybe some artifact was left behind or something that randomly contains something similar to it, wasn't there a sort of music box in the ter'angreals that Elayne found?

 

 

Wasn't there also a Ter'Angreal that Aviendha said "grew something" from that stash they recovered in Ebou Dar? What if the "need" originally took them to a similar ter'angreal in the tower and when they added the the stipulation of not the WT it took them to Ebou Dar? This would fit nicely with the Tinkers and our new hippy Rand. The light side does need food considering how Rand "spoiled" it all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Kinda gets to what your definition for "small" is, doncha think?

 

I wouldn't classify the massacre of an entire Tinker Caravan as a "small" thing.

 

The problem is, that in such a massive series, there have been a great number of things/people/events that have been mentioned and then abandoned.

 

I'm trying to remember when we last saw or heard of Uno and the other warriors who guarded/accompanied Nynaeve and Elayne for awhile early on as one example. I liked those guys. Somewhere in this massive undertaking they seem to have gotten lost.

 

Not sure when it happened, but there's the meeting between Graendal and Ituralde. We've yet to see what Compulsion Graendal laid on him and what effect it will have.

 

Just a couple of the dozens or hundreds of like things/incidents that are still unresolved in some way. These don't even really scratch the surface. One tiny needle in a very big haystack and only eight days left to find it. Think I'm gonna wuss-out and just wait for the book to get here.

[Sentinel78]

Starting to lean towards Ituralde's Compulsion... Ituralde is leading a very powerful army backed by 100 Ash'aman and is under at least some level of Compulsion by Graendal. Ituralde is likely to discover Rand abandoned Arad Doman to starvation and Seanchan invasion, and Graendal has orders to sow chaos in Arad Doman.

 

Big Impact could be Rodel takes his army away from the Blight to support Bandar Eban and Arad Doman, and this leaves a path for the Trolloc-army to wipe out Maradon, the Saldean capital. I conclude this based on Maradon being the new map in ToM, which Terez told us.

 

That being said, I would think Rodel would do the same thing without Compulsion, so maybe that's not it.

[OptimusPrime]

The shortlist you mean?

They are the same list, are they not? Either way, it is on both of them.

 

Taims freedom is on both.

[martianblues]

Wasn't there also a Ter'Angreal that Aviendha said "grew something" from that stash they recovered in Ebou Dar? What if the "need" originally took them to a similar ter'angreal in the tower and when they added the the stipulation of not the WT it took them to Ebou Dar? This would fit nicely with the Tinkers and our new hippy Rand. The light side does need food considering how Rand "spoiled" it all.

 

I always thought the ter'angreal that Avi said grew something was a "talisman of growing" that the Ogier used to "grow" Waygates.

[Aquarius]

I always thought the ter'angreal that Avi said grew something was a "talisman of growing" that the Ogier used to "grow" Waygates.

I was thinking that somehow they would "grow" a Nym with their talisman. Getting that species back to life. Think about it for 1 second: the male Aes Sedai going mad gave the Ways as a gift to the Ogier, and as a side, gave them the Talisman of Growing to allow them to create more waygates. I got the feeling that it's not the original purpose of those Talisman. They had a bunch of those leftovers, or else they were easy to create, so they gave them away to the Ogier.

[maradon]

Guys Im pretty sure its Matts Ashandarei (sp?). Follow Terez's link and read the review, then follow the link to the thread and find post number 138 I think its page 7 or 8. Now the ashandarei theory is only raised three or four days before Terez makes the post, which I think could be a reasonable amount of time for there to be a mix up, furthermore Terez has confirmed that it is in the lists posted by Luckers, which this is.

 

Terez is there any chance you can confirm this?? Im gona take a guess and say no, but its always worth an ask.

[dfchang]

I don't know,the Tinkers were brought up in post 125.

 

Also remember that it is something that people have not discussed or is a minor detail. I thought we'd talked about Mat's spear and speculated on it many times in the past?

 

Dennis