Light Burn Me! : Annoying Female Characters

[Barid Bel Medar]

So, there is a lot of hate for the major female chacters in the story. In various threads the female character bashing almost inevitably pops up.

 

So i decided to make a thread (and I am sure there are dozens of others like it, but I havent seen one post tGS, so ill refresh it) about exactly WHY you dont like the female characters. Because, you hear. "oh that Egwene is a little..." but rarely WHY that person hates them so much. You can list the stupid things that character has done, but I just thought a more in depth thread about the topic might be interesting.

 

So, here are the main candidates for the most hated award.

 

Faile: Definitely has to be the most hated "major" lightfriend character in the book. Hardly anyone likes her, and people dont just dislike her, they freakin hate her. Personally, I started off like most others, I hated her and her interactions with Perrin. However, re-reading for ToM, I have to admit I actually like her. We see her from Perrin's PoV most of the time, and most of the time she is trying to get him to be a Lord and Leader, which is something he resents. So some of Perrin's frustration I think seeps through to the reader. But really, all Faile ever does is for Perrin's own good. which, admit it or not, is most of the time a help rather than hinderance.

 

Take the TR for example. Perrin was a complete idiot. He knows he is Taveren and key to Rand, yet he goes back to the TR to give himself up to the WC thinking that they would leave everyone alone after he was dead. I mean, for lights sake, that is complete stupidity. Faile's actions proved less than perfect, but she was right, and it was her way of trying to stop him.

 

Take this example for every other time Faile pushes Perrin into something. Its now the Last Battle and Perrin is still saying he is a bad leader and whinging. Even Mat has come to terms with leadership, and he was far more against it than Perrin ever was. Faile is exactly right, he needs to stop crying and get the freakin job done. He needs to make tough decisions as a leader, and like or no, he IS a leader by virtue of Taveren. Faile knows this and she is triyng to tell him.

 

Egwene: Argueably the second most hated character. An arrogant, hippocritical girl who tries her hardest to emulate AS and WO.

 

Personally, I am not too fond of her, but I would not go so far as to say "hate". I used to, but (and I think most will agree) her role in tGS made her pretty badass.

 

However, she is still hateable.

 

Hippocrite: The first and foremost example of this I think is her raging at Elaida for trying to add a 4th oath of obedience. Now it is true, the circumstances are different, but the main point I feel is stil the same. So, she gets all stiff backed when Elaida suggests to impliment a 4th oath. Now, everyone hates Elaida, and no matte rhow much you hate Egwene, she is a better choice than that crazy Red. However, while she is all self-righteous outrage, she blackmailed Myrelle and co. into swearing the highest oath of obedience short of actual physical binding. True, it is not actual physical binding, but that oath is not far of it. None would dare break it unless they were a DF. So really, Egwene has no right to be that angry. There are other examples, however, I shall not go into more depth, others will definitely want to comment on them.

 

Arrogant: She always thinks she knows better than everyone else. When someone breaks the rules, she is furious, but when she breaks them, its ok, she had reason (so a bit of the hippocrite section here). Everyone hates someone who thinks they know best. Egwene is no different.

 

Treatment of Rand: I think this is the biggest thing that people hate about Egwene. She has become AS to her core. Unlike Nynaeve, she has completely disregarded her common sense and become the arrogant AS who thinks she needs to control Rand and acts like the White Tower is more important than the DR himself. Nynaeve may think Rand is an idiot some times, but all she does is for Rand's good. Egwene on the other hand thinks the White Tower is Light itself. Really, she should have learned better.

 

Elayne: Last on my list. The arrogant, petulant child queen.

 

Personally, I actually liked her alot on my first WoT read. She was one of my favorite female characters. However,in KoD, she really earned my dislike.

 

So, reasons why people hate her.

 

Queen complex: She looks down her nose at everyone like they are her subjects. This is bloody annoying for anyone. But what do you expect from a Queen? She is very ignorant and really needs to learn to deal with people other than being their superior. But again, what do you expect? Queen-ing is what she does, its her job.

 

Mat: This is where most of the Elayne hate is comming from I think. We all love Mat, and Elayne in LoC and aCoS treats Mat terribly. She is the most ungrateful wrech with her head so far sstuffed up a chimney that you want to throw a stick at her. She tries to steal Mat's amulet and thinks of him nothing more than a rogue. Now, Ill admit that this is completely resaonable. However, we must take into account a few things. We see a lot of this from Mat's PoV. As much as we love him, he is not the most reliable judge. He is extremely bias aginst her, if he was a historian, he would be completely disregarded as a vaild source. Also, alot of this comes from Nynaeve's influence. Elayne doesnt really know Mat, and most of her information comes from Nynaeve, who is not the best person to describe Mat. This judgement of Elaynes is pretty narrow minded and stupid, but it does make sense. Finally, Elayne is humbled by Mat. In the end they become pals. Female characters dont often learn lessons, its a statement of her character.

 

Her attitude in Andor: This is probably somewhat less of a reason, but one that annoys me. When she returns to Andor, she compeletly rejects Rand politically. Which, its true, fair enough. Her logic is indeed sound. She would rather win andor on her own, not because of the DR. However, I still find it annyoing that while she is trying to make herself legitimate for what she considers "her right" embroiled in civil war for 4 books, TG is comming closer. Surely she can put away her pride and do what is best and just gather Andor for the Last Battle. Again, she has good reasons for doing this, but it still irks me that she could not just give up her claim to the throne to stop a civil war when the DO is breaking free.

 

The one thing that made me lose all respect: So, as I said, through all of the above, I still thoguht Elayne was a pretty sweet character, I liked her alot. However, in KoD, one event destroyed her. I am talking about her reckless hunt for the BA. Rash because she is 1. pregnant and 2. knows she will live for her children to be born (Min's viewing) she runs off to hunt the BA without any real plan. Of course, she gets captured and 2 AS die because of it along with hundreds of soldier's balefired to get her back. All because she was reckless, certain that she was invincible.

Seriously, this is the worst thing I have seen in this series. By that alone, she is not fit to rule a farm let alone Andor.

 

Cadsuane The iron willed super grandma.

 

I forgot to put her in, because I actually like her, so I didnt think of it, but alot of people hate her, so she should get a spot.

 

SO, the ledgend Cadsuane of the Green Ajah. Oldest Aes Sedai living, dealt with more male channelers than anyone in the Tower. Super-badass. Sounds like an awesome character yes? Well, alot of people hate her.

 

Aes Sedai Arrogance: Basically the number one thing people hate AS for, their superiority complex. Some might say that Cadsuane is the epitomy of AS arrogance. Myself however, think the exact opposite. She reminds me of old school rock. She is like Led Zeppelin, Queen, ACDC. Rocking badasses from back in the day where music was raw talent. The modern Aes Sedai however, are more in the category of Justin Beiber and those gay little Emo punk bands that think they are hardcore. Cadsuane detests the state of the White Tower and the foolishness of AS. Several times we see her giving AS a verbal backhand, something we all want to do.

 

Secrecy/Manipulation: She is definitely slippery. Sometimes the truth would be the best, but Cadsuane is too AS for her own good. To me, it seems she keeps things secret for the sake of keeping them secret. However, compared to AS in general, she is pretty straight forward when it comes down to it. Like the cleansing. She told Rand that he was a fool, but knew he was going to do it anyway, so shut her mouth and organized a solid defence. Because of her organization skills she and her team of channelers managed to keep a bunch of the Forsaken off of Rand's back.

 

Treatment of Rand: Again like Egwene, the most hate comes from her treatment of Rand. Because we are very pro-Rand, we dislike anything going against him. She definitely does some very annoying things and is presumptious and outright bully, but I think she is the opposite of Egwene in regards to this. Firstly, while Egwene thinks to control the Dragon Reborn, to be safely under the Tower's control, Cadusane seeks him out. She believes this is the last thing she will ever do. While AS want Rand to do what is best for the Tower, Cadsuane wants Rand to win TG, thats all. She does not come to him wanting anything, but comes to give him support. Teach him to laugh and cry. She expects nothing in return, only manners. She gives her life to seeing Rand victorious. This is very similar to what Moiraine wanted, although methods are different. Yet one is a hated character while the other a loved one.

 

Tuon: Empress of half of the world.

 

Now obviously this fact alone is going to make her an arrogant ruler. They treat the empress like a godess, so she definitely suffers from a somewhat above average ego.

 

This one is a pretty short one really, I can sum up the Tuon hate in one category.

 

Being Seanchan: Alright, so Seanchan on its own is enough to hate, what with the collaring, but I mean not just being Seanchan in general, but actually acting/believing like a Seanchan. The culture is one immensly different from the Westland we have come to know. That I think its why we hate her. she doesnt believe in Mat's "stories" because her culture doesnt know of them. Just think, if someone told you that unicorns were real, you wouldnt believe them yeah? But they know they are real because where they are from, you see them all the time. Same with Tuon, its not her fault, its the fact that we know something exists, but she refuses it. In reality, she isnt really doing anything wrong, its just thats how we percieve it as an omnicient reader.

 

Anyway, now its your turn. Hate away!!

[graendalzooescapee]

OK, I think I get some sort of (slightly perverse) Authorial Intent Award, because I don't hate any of the Lightside characters. I think RJ just had a fondness for ballsy women, even ones that don't always behave well, that isn't to everyone's taste.

 

I think the thing to remember with Faile is that she is VERY young, and probably a little immature for her age too. Her behavior would be hard to understand in a woman who got married at our normal age of marriage, but for a teenager, it's really not unusually obtuse and selfish.

[ghoullio]

All of them?

 

Just kidding.

 

Everyone except Cadsuane sucks.

[Crael123]

Well. all I was about to say has already been said. Nice post. hate Elayne Egwene. Faile is okay i thought hated her for a while though

[Crael123]

Nyneave is badass though. Cadsuane has her moments.... but i think its bad when mh favorite scene with her is her getting banished... hmmm hahaha

[Barid Bel Medar]

Im gonna update it to put Cadsuane in.

 

I actually like her, but since she is a "most hated" ill give her a spot, just didnt think of.

 

What about Nynaeve? noone hates her any more do they?

[Crael123]

Doubt it. she is married to LAN for heavens sake!! hahaha she has to be badass. She is by far my fav female. Followed by Min Avi then... well Moirane i suppose. I also like suian. and Morgase is cool i guess.

[Tom Sawyer]

I really hate Tuon. She has her cool scenes, but mostly she just comes off as a petulant twit and I'm angry that Mat's gotten stuck with a woman who's so far beneath him. It really pissed me off when Rand decided not to balefire her.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I really hate Tuon. She has her cool scenes, but mostly she just comes off as a petulant twit and I'm angry that Mat's gotten stuck with a woman who's so far beneath him. It really pissed me off when Rand decided not to balefire her.

 

hahaha, nice. I should really add her aswell. I am kinda indifferent towards her. But yeah. It would have been easier if Rand had BF her and freed Mat to become the Emperor and, more importantly, free to dance with whoever he wanted.

[Crael123]

Mat should bang Sulcia. thats my take

[AuldGoldBeard]

Good list, and I'll expand a little on your point about Egwene's treatment of Rand to her treatment of all her friends. Look at the way she treats Nynaeve in TAR because Nyn has the nerve nearly to figure out that she's not supposed to be there.

 

Mat sets up a great contrast between Elayne and Egwene. Fast forward to book 6. Elayne really only knows Mat from what Egwene and Nynaeve have told her--she spent little time with him in the Stone, and he was unconscious for much if not most of the ride back from Falme. Egwene, on the other hand, has grown up with him, been friends with him all her life, and gone through the whole EotW adventure with him. Mat performs a great gesture for each of them--he bows down to Egwene and has his men do the same, and then willingly separates himself from his army just so it can be there if Egwene needs it. In Ebou Dar, he (obviously) saves Elayne from the gholam. How do the two repay him? Immediately after his bow, the book switches to an Egwene POV and she thinks something to the effect of, "I hope Elayne and Nynave can keep him out of trouble, and maybe Elayne can teach him manners." Elayne gives him a very sincere thanks (much moreso than Egwene's), intercedes with Tylin, offers to help him find Olver, and essentially treats him like a respectable human being, something Egwene hasn't done since Book 1, or in the Stone at the latest.

[GB]

yeah agree on faile

 

and egwene, i tend to be divided. I dislike how sometimes she can be a bit of a hypocrite but at the same time, she was really cool in the WT in TGS.

and her views on rand need to change, maybe Nynaeve can help her understand (if egwene is wiiling to listen) that Rand doesnt need to be controlled.

[Manetheren Lord]

I think Min is another character that a lot of people generally don't like. However I'm a bit confused. Your post is about people who hate them right? With all due respect ser, you kind of promote two and give us your hate about the other two. Is this post about your view points on them, or everybody to explain their own? Personally I don't get why anybody hates these characters or wants them to die. Sometimes I get really annoyed by them (Egwene in the earlier books) but I never want them to die. I want them to do amazing things and be more awesome. I just never understand this attitude of wanting them to die.

[Barid Bel Medar]

yeah agree on faile

 

and egwene, i tend to be divided. I dislike how sometimes she can be a bit of a hypocrite but at the same time, she was really cool in the WT in TGS.

and her views on rand need to change, maybe Nynaeve can help her understand (if egwene is wiiling to listen) that Rand doesnt need to be controlled.

 

Yeah, same with me, i think I mentioned it in the OP. Even if you are the no.1 egwene hater, you cant deny she did some pretty badass things in tGS.

 

But yeah, definitely needs her views on Rand adjusted, she has spent too much time in the white Tower, trying to be the best AS, just like when she was with the WO, she was trying to be the best WO, she forgets her own experiences and opinions.

 

She reminds me of that kid at school who always did whatever everyone else was doing.

 

@Auld - good points. As I mentioned, I did like Elayne alot, she is a good hearted character. But her actions in KoD really, really made me lose respect for her.

[GB]

yeah agree on faile

 

and egwene, i tend to be divided. I dislike how sometimes she can be a bit of a hypocrite but at the same time, she was really cool in the WT in TGS.

and her views on rand need to change, maybe Nynaeve can help her understand (if egwene is wiiling to listen) that Rand doesnt need to be controlled.

 

Yeah, same with me, i think I mentioned it in the OP. Even if you are the no.1 egwene hater, you cant deny she did some pretty badass things in tGS.

 

But yeah, definitely needs her views on Rand adjusted, she has spent too much time in the white Tower, trying to be the best AS, just like when she was with the WO, she was trying to be the best WO, she forgets her own experiences and opinions.

 

She reminds me of that kid at school who always did whatever everyone else was doing.

 

@Auld - good points. As I mentioned, I did like Elayne alot, she is a good hearted character. But her actions in KoD really, really made me lose respect for her.

 

elayne is not my most hated character, i find her ok as compared to others. she does go on too much about being invicible though through her pregnancy and pushes it a bit too far.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Min is another character that a lot of people generally don't like. However I'm a bit confused. Your post is about people who hate them right? With all due respect ser, you kind of promote two and give us your hate about the other two. Is this post about your view points on them, or everybody to explain their own? Personally I don't get why anybody hates these characters or wants them to die. Sometimes I get really annoyed by them (Egwene in the earlier books) but I never want them to die. I want them to do amazing things and be more awesome. I just never understand this attitude of wanting them to die.

 

Min? There doesnt seem to be much Min hate. Perhaps not fond of, but she isnt on the most hated list.

 

Not exactly sure what you are confused about, sorry.

 

My post is about the characters who most people hate, not the people who hate them.

 

I gave my own views on the characters that people generally dislike, and encourage people to say whether they agree, or if not, what their point of view is.

 

I am not sure what you mean by "promoting". These are the characters the fandom generally hate. I am giving my own opinions on those characters.

 

Hope that clears it up for you.

[Barid Bel Medar]

yeah agree on faile

 

and egwene, i tend to be divided. I dislike how sometimes she can be a bit of a hypocrite but at the same time, she was really cool in the WT in TGS.

and her views on rand need to change, maybe Nynaeve can help her understand (if egwene is wiiling to listen) that Rand doesnt need to be controlled.

 

Yeah, same with me, i think I mentioned it in the OP. Even if you are the no.1 egwene hater, you cant deny she did some pretty badass things in tGS.

 

But yeah, definitely needs her views on Rand adjusted, she has spent too much time in the white Tower, trying to be the best AS, just like when she was with the WO, she was trying to be the best WO, she forgets her own experiences and opinions.

 

She reminds me of that kid at school who always did whatever everyone else was doing.

 

@Auld - good points. As I mentioned, I did like Elayne alot, she is a good hearted character. But her actions in KoD really, really made me lose respect for her.

 

elayne is not my most hated character, i find her ok as compared to others. she does go on too much about being invicible though through her pregnancy and pushes it a bit too far.

 

Yeah, I dont really "hate" her, just dont really like her any more. While the KoD incident really made me angry, I wouldnt say I hated her just because of that one thing. I liked her character despite the few annoying things she did. But after KoD, I lost my respect and like of her. on a Love-Hate scale 1-10 (ten being love) I would say pre-KoD i was about 7. After her getting her people killed it went down to 4.

[Lynander]

In my first read of the first 10 or so books, I absolutely hated Nyn and I liked Elayne. Ever since Elayne went to Caemlyn and Nyn took over Cadsuane's advisor spot (or maybe clensing of saidin), I have reversed my opinions of both. Also, Egwene is annoying with her self righteous BS and attitude towards Rand. Avi was interesting/cool when she was always angry at Rand, now I'm indifferent. My favorite of the supagirls is probably Min because she treats Rand the best of the bunch and doesn't have her head above the clouds.

[Hadilmir]

Why isn't Min on this list? I know it's not supposed to be objective, but you could atleast throw in all of them.

[FrankNeumann]

Is it sad that whenever a women does something even halfway decent, I get all proud for that character? Yet when men do things halfway decent, it's just commonplace.

[Ashlyn]

I started off liking Egwene, while Nynaeve irritated me to no end for her petulance and stubbornness in the first books. However, somewhere around Lord of Chaos, the roles reversed. Nynaeve is now my favourite female character, and overall is only surpassed by Mat and Loial, while Egwene, despite her awesomeness in TGS, has slipped far down. For the same reasons listed above: her hypocrisy, tunnel vision and exceptional arrogance.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that most of the Faile hate has to do with how far downhill she went. In books three and four, she was probably the coolest character in the books and I loved her. Then after she got married, she had herself a personality lobotomy and was always so two-faced with Perrin and did nothing except play emotional games with him instead of treat him as a person worthy of consideration and respect, as one would hope a person would treat their spouse.

[Duskfire]

I dont mind Faile all that much compared to Egwene or Nynaeve or Elayne. When we get failes POV, she respects Perrin. She wants him to sit in on the Two Rivers council believeing its his place, she wants him to pass judgement, etc etc. All that leadership stuff. Its obvious that Faile wants Perrin to grow, and at the same time loves him for his weaknesses. However from about book 3 onwards the wonder girls just rave on constantly about how men are useless. The amount of times Nynaeve told Thom and Juliuin that she didnt need their help only to need their help like two chapters later was ridiculous.

 

Tuon is the same. I actually like her character; its not her fault her upbringing is that way, and she has arrogance, but to me its a different sort of arrogance then Elayne. She expects alot from her followers as is the Seanchan way, but she also respects them to some degree. Look at how she treated Beslan; that was awesome and a half and she gained alot of respect from me for that. And she is the only female character (except for Birgitte) who respects Mat in anyway. Granted it was only gradual and even now she denies alot of her own thoughts, but still. She is able to look past Mats general outer personality and demeanour.

 

Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene shit me. Nynaeve is alright sometimes, because of her obvious affection for others. Egwene has her moments, but she spoils them by being retardly arrogant after. And Elayne is just... blergh. Its just the wya they treat others and make constant assumptions that usually turn out to be wrong and yet dont nothing changes. They dont thnk of something that is wrong and then think later, "oh, next time I should be more careful," or "next time I shouldnt be so assuming and judgemental." Nope, they kepe on going on and on with doing the same crap over and over again.

[Danvighar]

Biggest gripe with Faile is that she seems to think that simply by BEING MARRIED, somehow Perrin has instantly, completely learned, agreed with, and absorbed Saldaean attitudes. She's STILL the naive little girl when it comes to that.

 

Outside of that, when her actions aren't directly about "Why won't Perrin smack me around to show me he loves me", she's pretty cool. Witness her handling of Masema.

 

 

 

I've loved Nynaeve lately, and Min. Min slightly more because she gets the distinction between 'help' vs 'guide/control'.

 

 

 

Cadsuane... my biggest problem with her is what I presume Rand feels: Nice that she doesn't just make agreeing noises of worship and then do her own thing regardless, but it would help a lot if the woman appeared to know how to treat someone on the same side as an EQUAL rather than a child. Apparently she reserves being treated as an equal for the Enemy, so that she doesn't get caught by underestimating them. She has no problem with the idea of underestimating her allies. She fails at the distinction between "help" and "guide/control" far worse than Nynaeve does.

 

As Rand put it to Nynaeve, "The difference between you and Cadsuane, is that you actually care about me. Cadsuane only cares about my place in her plans." And if Cadsuane cares about Rand as a person, not just a means of saving the world, she'd do well to bother to show it.

 

 

 

Tuon rocks. Her only failing is a little too much assumption of "because this was written in our books, it's true, even though we haven't been here in over a thousand years". She's learning. And between the Aes Sedai culture of intrigue and backstabbing, and the experiences of the Armies of Hawkwing in Seanchan during the Founding, it's little wonder she truly believes all women who choose to channel are criminals who deserve to be treated as criminals "for their own good".

 

 

 

Elayne fell into two traps: "Andor is more important than the world surviving", and "getting the politics right is more important than getting anything done". Little wonder that with the Windfinders acting even worse than Andoran nobles with their superiority complexes, the few times she tries to get something done directly, she bungles it. "I'll be safe until my babies are born!" Girl, you'd be surprised what you can live through... just long enough.

 

 

 

Speaking of the Windfinders... they and the Aiel Wise Ones fail the same test as the Seanchan-as-a-whole (individuals may be more clued in). "It's clearly obvious that everyone in the world must have the same culture as us! We don't need to think about things from their perspective, except to note that they are inferior for not knowing things about us that we never told them!"

 

 

Egwene.. she was awesome in tGS starting with the meeting with Verin, but her thoughts right before bug me. A lot. As others said, she has become Aes Sedai to the core, even as she was a Wise One's Apprentice to the core before.

How could they encourage the Kin or the Wise Ones to tie themselves to the Aes Sedai if the Aes Sedai themselves were not unified? The two White Towers would become opposed forces, confusing the leaders of men as rival Amyrlins tried to use nations for their own purposes. Allies and enemies alike would lose their awe of the Aes Sedai, and kings very well might start up their own centers for women talented in channeling.

 

Sarcasm mode=on

Oh dear. Poor leaders of men, they might have to think rather than unquestioningly doing what Aes Sedai tell them. Clearly a united Tower will not try to use nations for its own purposes (it will succeed, not just try, right?). Oh, what's this? People might lose their awe of Aes Sedai? Why, next thing you know, Aes Sedai might be treated as mere equals! Gods no more, oh the shame! Oh, oh, how horrible, we might not have a monopoly anymore!

/sarcasm end

 

It would be one thing if she were honestly concerned that (somehow) schools around the continent might result in inferior teaching, or a higher percentage of women dying from training too fast, but she shows no sign of continuing in that vein of thought, only that "kings" might dare set up Towers of their own. The nerve!

 

 

 

And my overall problem with the attitudes of apparently all female channelers in the series EXCEPT the Seanchan (Sorilea, Cadsuane, Windfinders are the worst about this): From what I can see, their thoughts run like this, at the most charitable, "In an emergency, I may need someone to obey orders instantly, without question. Therefore I will treat them all as distant subordinates and except them to obey my orders instantly, without question, ALL THE TIME. I will never spend the time to explain my reasons, discuss things with them and see if we can come to an agreement, or if I (gasp) have some of my assumptions wrong, or anything of the sort. I will command, they will obey, and if they do not obey, the only possible reason is that they are an ignorant child who must be either disciplined or dismissed as useless to my plans (my plans are better than anyone's, including those of my equals or superiors - er, I don't have any superiors, I just have people who happen to outrank me. For now. I don't know their plans, they don't know mine, but mine are better. Because they're mine)."

 

 

 

So yeah. That's my perspective on the women of the series.

[OptimusPrime]

Nynaeve is by far my favorite female WoT character. After KoD I couldnt decide if it was Nynaeve Moiraine or Cadsuane, but then I read TGS and decided Nynaeve. Definitely.

 

Elayne and Faile annoy me. Min I think is quite bland in comparison to the average bland thing. Im annoyed that Semirhage died before Moghedien did. Aviendha is also one of my favorites, Verin was but the ending wast as kickass as I had expected (although who knows, she might even become a Hero and return, as might Ingtar) and to be honest, I think Alanna bonding Rand was a good thing. He probably would have died without that bond, he needed the endurance that came from it and I also think that bond will be as important to the plot as the harem bonds.