Chapter Two, "Questions of Leadership"

[b3arz3rg3r]

I noticed the 'riding' maidens as well.

 

My general problems with this are, respectively, that Perrin's scene is the same as his last three scenes--he's worried about his single mindedness in persuing Faile, and what it means about his ability to lead, and something messed up is going on with his dreams. And fair enough, but it only needed one scene to show. Why have him in tGS at all if we're gonna get a 'Last Time on the Wheel of Time...'. The whole thing reads like 'I need Perrin to still be present, but I don't have anything to do with him, and he can't progress too far'. Under that note I frankly would have preferred he be absent until his storyline was necessary.

 

And Galad, inversely, needed more. If this plot had begun in tGS, with maybe one scene of Asunawa torturing him and him holding up, then the Lords Captain turning to him would have had time to develop and have weight. As it is this feels cheap--one chapter between capture and capitulation? It reads like RJ's notes stated that Asunawa captured Galad, but Brandon didn't have the space to develop it (which I sympathise with). In fact this might be a place where Brandon needed to actually cut something that RJ had scripted because it wouldn't work.

 

You forgot one of Perrins problems, he's still hung up on choosing the hammer over the axe seeing how he gives every axe in the vicinity a hungry look.

 

As for Galad, I agree. I think RJ intended the plot of the Children to mirror the plot of the Aes Sedai. Both institutions originally meant to be a bastion against shadow, but having become embroiled in a continuous power struggle and become infested by darkfriends at the highest levels. Both needed a cleansing, but this was just too rushed.

 

You also have to realize that Jordan didn't always show us everything. We didn't see Bair's wedding, which is something I wanted to see. We just got a conversation between Rand and Avi about it later. And we also didn't see Mat fighting Couladin. We just see Mat getting stitched up afterwards and thinking about how he nearly died. Considering the length of the series, I think we can be forgiving if the authors want to keep some stuff off screen.

 

I think you mean Melaine. Bair is the one with the leathery face.

[Tremalking]

I am unable to see why so many people loathe Faile. In all books her actions have been rather similar and I cannot see a huge difference in this very chapter.

 

Furthermore, I agree with Luckers on his view that the issue with Galad’s imprisonment was resolved too quickly and without enough suspense.

[lordofsoup]

great chapter. It makes me want more dang it

[b3arz3rg3r]

I am unable to see why so many people loathe Faile. In all books her actions have been rather similar and I cannot see a huge difference in this very chapter.

 

Furthermore, I agree with Luckers on his view that the issue with Galad’s imprisonment was resolved too quickly and without enough suspense.

I think I disliked Faile ten years ago when I was her age, but I can't really remember why anymore. When I last reread the series I was completely neutral to her. Perrin was the one I disliked in the pairing.

[unlabled]

I noticed the 'riding' maidens as well.

 

My general problems with this are, respectively, that Perrin's scene is the same as his last three scenes--he's worried about his single mindedness in persuing Faile, and what it means about his ability to lead, and something messed up is going on with his dreams. And fair enough, but it only needed one scene to show. Why have him in tGS at all if we're gonna get a 'Last Time on the Wheel of Time...'. The whole thing reads like 'I need Perrin to still be present, but I don't have anything to do with him, and he can't progress too far'. Under that note I frankly would have preferred he be absent until his storyline was necessary.

 

 

 

Didn't 'Larry' or someone else who got an advanced copy say that Perrin essentially sucks in this book?? I pray there is some character progression with this guy.

 

Edit: It was 'Pat' from Westeros.

[waffle]

 

Didn't 'Larry' or someone else who got an advanced copy say that Perrin essentially sucks in this book?? I pray there is some character progression with this guy.

 

Wasn´t it "i´m 100 pages in right now. Perrin sucks"?

 

And didn´t Jason say that Perrin arc was slow to get going but would be awesome?

 

 

I still have hope.

[The Dirty Landry]

I am unable to see why so many people loathe Faile. In all books her actions have been rather similar and I cannot see a huge difference in this very chapter.

 

Furthermore, I agree with Luckers on his view that the issue with Galad’s imprisonment was resolved too quickly and without enough suspense.

I think you guys are to used to RJ's way of drawing things out. Frankly, with as many plotlines that need to be wrapped up and the two books we have remaining, some stories will have to fall by the wayside. Granted perhaps BS, could have had the kidnapping chapter somewhere in TGS, but I still think he would have finished the plotline with the same amount of words. There are just to many things for him to cover, for him to give much time to really a minor plot when so many more important things have to happen.

[Naffy]

I very much dislike the... erm reader? I don´t know what the term is. The man voices everyone as if they have a dagger stuck in the gut or something.

His Perrin voice is right on. It feels like I have a dagger twisting in my gut during his POVs.

[Tremalking]

I am unable to see why so many people loathe Faile. In all books her actions have been rather similar and I cannot see a huge difference in this very chapter.

 

Furthermore, I agree with Luckers on his view that the issue with Galad’s imprisonment was resolved too quickly and without enough suspense.

I think you guys are to used to RJ's way of drawing things out. Frankly, with as many plotlines that need to be wrapped up and the two books we have remaining, some stories will have to fall by the wayside. Granted perhaps BS, could have had the kidnapping chapter somewhere in TGS, but I still think he would have finished the plotline with the same amount of words. There are just to many things for him to cover, for him to give much time to really a minor plot when so many more important things have to happen.

 

Due to the fact that I, for obvious reasons, at this moment haven’t read the whole ToM, I may have made up my mind prematurely; the complete picture might convince me the side plot of Galad was finished satisfactory. At the moment, though, I will have to stick to my assessment that a few more pages or some chapters in between wouldn’t have hurt.

[Naffy]

I am unable to see why so many people loathe Faile. In all books her actions have been rather similar and I cannot see a huge difference in this very chapter.

 

Furthermore, I agree with Luckers on his view that the issue with Galad’s imprisonment was resolved too quickly and without enough suspense.

I think you guys are to used to RJ's way of drawing things out. Frankly, with as many plotlines that need to be wrapped up and the two books we have remaining, some stories will have to fall by the wayside. Granted perhaps BS, could have had the kidnapping chapter somewhere in TGS, but I still think he would have finished the plotline with the same amount of words. There are just to many things for him to cover, for him to give much time to really a minor plot when so many more important things have to happen.

 

Due to the fact that I, for obvious reasons, at this moment haven’t read the whole ToM, I may have made up my mind prematurely; the complete picture might convince me the side plot of Galad was finished satisfactory. At the moment, though, I will have to stick to my assessment that a few more pages or some chapters in between wouldn’t have hurt.

I wish Sanderson would have written the Elayne Succession and Malden storylines........

[Tremalking]

At Naffy:

 

I second that very (very) much.

[waffle]

I wish Sanderson would have written the Elayne Succession and Malden storylines........

 

Elayne: Give me he throne

Everybody: Take it. Oh and we killed the black ajah too so your stupidity won´t get hundreds of your soldiers killed.

 

 

Perrin: Give me Faile.

Shaido: Take her.

Perrin: Solving this problem is going to take a lot of hammering things out and beardscratching and smell- wait what?

[ghenjei]

first time I've heard of Maidens riding anywhere

 

I hope our guesses of Perrin getting his moment of awesome are right, because his part in the story to me just reinforced the things I hate about his character.

 

 

Glad you caught that too. I had to pause for a quick WTF?

 

I think Perrin's badassery will increase now. I did like his "Oh sorry for being such a beta douche for the last 10 years" mea culpa. All is forgiven big guy! Now lead your army of good guys to the Blight for some major butt kicking.

 

As for Faile.... all I can say is that Sanderson is not the gender politics warrior RJ was, meaning that she is getting more tolerable daily.

[martianblues]

One thing to consider with Perrin is the actual amount of time in the story line. For us as readers it has been years and years of us reading about his reluctance to accept his role. But to Perrin it has really only been a matter of months, not years, since he has been thrust into this position. Not a very long time to get accustomed to going from a blacksmith's apprentice to a general with people flocking to you for guidance.

 

Maybe some of the maidens decided it was more efficient in the mud to ride instead of pridefully slogging thru the mud.

[Naffy]

One thing to consider with Perrin is the actual amount of time in the story line. For us as readers it has been years and years of us reading about his reluctance to accept his role. But to Perrin it has really only been a matter of months, not years, since he has been thrust into this position. Not a very long time to get accustomed to going from a blacksmith's apprentice to a general with people flocking to you for guidance.

 

Maybe some of the maidens decided it was more efficient in the mud to ride instead of pridefully slogging thru the mud.

Now, if Perrin were a real person, I would totally buy that argument and cut the guy some slack. But he is a fictional character in a story meant to entertain me. So yeah, he sucks pretty hard.

[Sentinel78]

One thing to consider with Perrin is the actual amount of time in the story line. For us as readers it has been years and years of us reading about his reluctance to accept his role. But to Perrin it has really only been a matter of months, not years, since he has been thrust into this position. Not a very long time to get accustomed to going from a blacksmith's apprentice to a general with people flocking to you for guidance.

 

I agree with this completely. But that being said, RJ could have cut back on his POVs significantly to avoid redundancy and then bring him more back into the picture when he wanted Perrin's primary role to be 'activated'.

[ghenjei]

 

The Galad vs Asunwa thing getting wrapped up quickly was a good thing in my opinion. Leaves more room for other plotlines. Like Perrin brooding. And Elayne taking a bath.

 

 

If that is the case, I'm nuking Utah.

[TheAngryDruid]

My take was I enjoyed it, BS goof about Maidens riding not withstanding. He does that quite a bit, but it is usually with little stuff or minor characters. His attention to detail isn't as great as RJ's, and how could it be, inheriting someone else's world. And, to be fair, team Jordan has mistake or two in the series. It's too complex for it not to happen.

 

Regarding Perrin.

 

I'm full on board with the ta'veren (if they are in the right frame of mind) having a kind of "bubble of light" around them to fight the DO's touch. The lack of food spoilage in Perrin's camp proves it. I bet post epiphany, they will get stronger, as Rand is the key.

 

Also on board with the belief that the Pattern (through the bubbles of evil, rain, and other delays) is forcing Perrin to stay. Still, it drives me crazy that between Perrin, Faile, and 3 Aes Sedai, no one has even thought of linking so the WO's or AS can give the AM the juice they need to make a gateway? Maybe the Pattern is causing their stupidity (Elayne all over again)?

 

In terms of Faile, I think she's had an epiphany, too, about what being a leader is all about. Her PoV in tGS, Embers and Ash, showed it. It means you sacrifice yourself first, not try to always get your way. She's grown during her captivity, and was going to show Perrin the truth of it before the scouts interrupted. The jealousy thing really isn't a factor, that was dealt with in tGS.

 

In terms of the time line, here goes, via Cooper (not necessarily truth, but a good starting point).

 

Perrin says it has been more than a month since Malden, and he see's Rand facing west by a building burned out in front. This is after Adrin died.

 

Timeline from Cooper: (ToM Material)

Aine 26 (749): Perrin goes into Malden.

Adar 22 (773): Verin gives Mat the letter & prepares to gate them to Caemlyn.

Adar 25 (776): Adrin is killed by the bubble of evil that burns the manor house.

Savan 1 (780): Rand prepares to move into Bandar Eban at the manor.

Savan 2 (781): Rand enters Bandar Eban. (Perrin must have seen him on or before this day: 778-781; 776 is still less than a month after Malden, 777 is one month, so I'd say 778-781).

Savan 4 (783): (My guess at the earliest we see Mat in Caemlyn, as it is about the first day he could open the letter, though it could by 784, depending on if he arrived on 773, and/or has to wait 10 full days before opening or can open on the 10th day).

Savan 5 (784): Rand has his vision of Perrin with Galad, and Thom and Mat (riding?) through the streets of Caemlyn. The vision could be before or after the Seven Striped Lass, but it is in the ball-park. And maybe another slip with riding/walking. Anyway, it seems Perrin/Mat are pretty close, and the Galad/Perrin meeting is very close.

Savan 21 (800): Verin visits Egwene (approx).

Savan 23 (802): Rand has the epiphany. Egwene & Silviana see the clouds part (or maybe the next day).

 

 

As for Galad, I liked his scene. He's a badass for sure. I didn't mind having the Whitecloak rebellion off-screen. We'd have had to introduce another PoV to do it, as Dain and Byar were with Galad's side, not Asunawa's. I wish some Elayne's baths or Perrin's introspection since tPoD could have been offscreen, but that's water under the bridge.

 

Do you think Perrin's group found Asunawa's head by the side of the road? That would put Galad between Gill (with Balwer & Morgase?) and Perrin.

 

 

Didn't Larry say the Egwene/Rand chapter was chapter 3?

[Jimmy]

I forgot to say Galad was really cool though. I'm really starting to like that guy even if he is the epitome of square.

 

Oh and someone tell that it's winter, she doesn't want to have her frozen nipples pierce through those low-cut dresses of hers, does she?

 

Those frozen nipples are the only thing holding her dress up

[martianblues]

I forgot to say Galad was really cool though. I'm really starting to like that guy even if he is the epitome of square.

 

Oh and someone tell that it's winter, she doesn't want to have her frozen nipples pierce through those low-cut dresses of hers, does she?

 

Those frozen nipples are the only thing holding her dress up

 

:laugh: that's freaking funny.

[TheAngryDruid]

I forgot to say Galad was really cool though. I'm really starting to like that guy even if he is the epitome of square.

 

Oh and someone tell that it's winter, she doesn't want to have her frozen nipples pierce through those low-cut dresses of hers, does she?

 

Those frozen nipples are the only thing holding her dress up

 

According to the time-line, it is spring. Still can have frozen nipples, however.

[Naffy]

I forgot to say Galad was really cool though. I'm really starting to like that guy even if he is the epitome of square.

 

Oh and someone tell that it's winter, she doesn't want to have her frozen nipples pierce through those low-cut dresses of hers, does she?

 

Those frozen nipples are the only thing holding her dress up

 

According to the time-line, it is spring. Still can have frozen nipples, however.

The turkey's are done!

[jdbond]

A chapter I could have done without.So third chapter is where Rand goes to WT. Ah well, that one is worth reading.

 

 

Perrin, fool, you still are pretty single minded about behaving like a wool-headed moron.

[Rufae]

Since the Maidens ran off to see the Wise Ones right away, I will wager it is something to do with Aiel. Maybe the bodies of Sevanna or some Shaido?

 

Either that or perhaps the bodies of Gill and the others.

[Jim Millen]

Sheesh, think it's a good job Dark Rand never visited Perrin over the last month or so.

 

"You have done well Perrin, this force will serve me at the Last Battle."

 

"Well, about that, I'm no kind of leader or a lord, I don't know what I'm doing-"

 

>>>> BALEFIRE <<<<

 

On a more serious note, I'm not too fussed about Perrin moping as some, but do agree it would be good if he gets awesome again fairly promptly.

 

Galad's scene - yes, happy with this, we've already had Egwene do the noble suffering thing and quite content for them just to get on with it.

 

I have no clue what the Maidens might have found though. No real indication in the audio is there? I've seen suggestions so far of Asunwa's head or Gill's party - could be the bodies of all the Whitecloak Questioners could it not? Otherwise I can't figure it out at all - not much to work with really. Worth a new thread for speculation?

 

All in all this has definitely got me even more looking forward to the 2nd November, if that's possible!